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BSA membership resolution passes with more than 60 percent of vote

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After an extensive discussion within the organization, the Boy Scouts of America’s approximately 1,400 volunteer voting members chose to adopt the membership policy resolution and remove the restriction denying membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation alone.

The final vote breakdown was 61.44 percent for the proposal, and 38.56 percent against. The change takes effect Jan. 1, 2014.

Voting results were tabulated and certified by TrueBallot, an independent, third-party voting firm.

Read more at this site, or find the full text of the BSA’s official media statement below:

For 103 years, the Boy Scouts of America has been a part of the fabric of this nation, with a focus on working together to deliver the nation’s foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

Based on growing input from within the Scouting family, the BSA leadership chose to conduct an additional review of the organization’s long-standing membership policy and its impact on Scouting’s mission. This review created an outpouring of feedback from the Scouting family and the American public, from both those who agree with the current policy and those who support a change.

Today, following this review, the most comprehensive listening exercise in Scouting’s history the approximate 1,400 voting members of the Boy Scouts of America’s National Council approved a resolution to remove the restriction denying membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation alone. The resolution also reinforces that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting. A change to the current membership policy for adult leaders was not under consideration; thus, the policy for adults remains in place. The BSA thanks all the national voting members who participated in this process and vote.

This policy change is effective Jan. 1, 2014, allowing the Boy Scouts of America the transition time needed to communicate and implement this policy to its approximately 116,000 Scouting units.

The Boy Scouts of America will not sacrifice its mission, or the youth served by the movement, by allowing the organization to be consumed by a single, divisive, and unresolved societal issue. As the National Executive Committee just completed a lengthy review process, there are no plans for further review on this matter.

While people have different opinions about this policy, we can all agree that kids are better off when they are in Scouting. Going forward, our Scouting family will continue to focus on reaching and serving youth in order to help them grow into good, strong citizens. America’s youth need Scouting, and by focusing on the goals that unite us, we can continue to accomplish incredible things for young people and the communities we serve.

1432 Comments on BSA membership resolution passes with more than 60 percent of vote

  1. Watch many long-time leaders leave the program, and many families pull out their boys. Great job everybody!

    • Steve Kleinrichert // May 23, 2013 at 6:19 pm // Reply

      I was amongst the first to resign having done so last week, if a change was voted,at the moment it was approved.

      FORMER Cubmaster, Asst Scoutmaster, District Committee

      • Scouting Supporter // May 23, 2013 at 8:15 pm // Reply

        Good. Glad you’re gone. Scouting doesn’t need people like you.

        • Scouting doesn’t need the people that have made it one of the most respected organizations in the country for over 100 years just because they don’t follow your preferred fad? Just how do you figure that, “Supporter”?

  2. A trajedy for BSA. The decline begins tonight as the resignations begin.

  3. What a sell-out by the idiots in charge. Sorry but that is the only way to describe the inane policy they just passed. I will officialy resign my position tomorrow because of it. I hope the majority of scout leaders follow. This is not the boy-scouts that I grew up with.

    • Scouting Supporter // May 23, 2013 at 5:47 pm // Reply

      Bye bye! BSA will be better off without bigots.

      • Trenton Spears // May 23, 2013 at 6:17 pm // Reply

        Scouting Supporter I am not a bigot but I have been a loyal member of Scouting for 28 years. I joined in 1949 and have served as a BSA Leader for the last 24 years my loyality is with God not with organizations who have forsaken him. Let the lawsuits begin. I hope that the homosexual promoting corperations have deep pockets the BSA will need their funding. I have donated my last dime I don’t want it wasted on lawsuits by Adult Homosexuals suing to be in Scouting. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • Trenton, were you one of members who threatened to quit when National allowed women to hold the position of Cubmaster or Scoutmaster…many threatened to quit or indeed left saying how it would ruin the program….it did not. Maybe you would be better off serving a church youth group

        • Trenton Spears // May 23, 2013 at 7:59 pm //

          Lori with due respect some of my closes friends are female scout leaders. They are a great asset to scouting. I was a cubmaster in 1963 along with my wife as den leader so please do not judge me unfairly. I stand on what I stated and please don’t take it that I am against females in Scouting because I am against homosexuals in Scouting. Trenton Spears

        • Trenton, you bring up a great point. Are they such idiots to believe that FOS funding comes mostly from major corporations? It is from tens of thousands of individuals and small business owners who may not make a public stand, but whose dollars will find other avenues.

        • Although I disagree with you on this issue Trenton, I hope you reconsider. It’s not about the National policy. If that was what was important, I would not have signed back up when my boys became scouts in the 90′s. Most leaders, and from earlier post I would guess you agree are in scouts for the good of the boys. We need all the good leaders we can get. When I was a scout in the 60′s, there was no ban of gay scouts, and the organization did just fine. With the grace of God, that will still be the case.

  4. Karen Zeller // May 23, 2013 at 5:26 pm // Reply

    Thank you, Bryan, for posting this.

  5. Oh and this was all over money. THose in charge were bullied by the corporations that pulled their donations. We would have survived without the money and found it elsewhere. I am so pissed. But like it is, I didn’t leave the Boy Scouts, The Boy Scouts left me. So sad.

  6. As a registered District level volunteer, I am disgusted with the outcome. I will be leaving. Scoutmaster and Order of the Arrow positions are open, as is District Committee position.

    • If you are disgusted with the outcome, you should not have been a Scoutmaster to begin with. You have no idea what Scouting is about.

      • Scouting Supporter // May 23, 2013 at 5:48 pm // Reply

        Good comment Joe!

      • Thank You Joe!

      • Trenton Spears // May 23, 2013 at 7:41 pm // Reply

        Joe Lets hear about your accomplishments in Scouting over the years. How many Court of Honors have you been in charge of how many Eagle Scout mentoring pins have you been awarded. How many Scout camps have you been a Scoutmaster of. How many Woodbadge Cources have you been a Staff member how many Roundtables have you attended, how many Camporalls have you been a Staff member. Have you been given a Silver Beaver Award? I am sick and tired of you people calling us bigots or homophobes or telling us we should not have never been a Scoutmaster because we have core values that we believe in. With your comments I feel like a Vietnam War Veteran coming home from the war and spit upon by jerks like you. If you are the new wave of Scouting I am sorry for the BSA. Trenton Spears

        • Amen, Trenton. Those who insist on making this change are the ones who don’t understand scouting and likely never did. After all, they obviously joined *in spite* of BSA principles, not because of them as we did.

        • When I was a youth – scouting was open to every boy. The smart kid, and the not so smart. The athletic kid, and the non-athlete. The rich kid in town, and the poorest. I never heard of any kid ever being kicked out of scouts. So scouting was for everyone. It’s right there in the name.

          As others have said- sometime in the 1990′s scouting took on a self-righteous bent that was mean and nasty. By kicking out those who are “unworthy”, it stuck its nose up in the air and said “we’re better than you, you immoral piece of dirt”. The press release never said those things – but the behavior, actions and court cases all said that. It’s ugly and mean spirited.

          We have a congressional charter. That charter says our purpose is to “to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.”

          Our congressional charter doesn’t say we promote these values only for Christian boys. It doesn’t say we do this only for heterosexuals. We’ve been given a monopoly is scouting in our country – and we should offer scouting to all boys.

          Yeah- I think I understand what the BSA is supposed to be about. If you think it is only for conservative, Christian heterosexual boys, then you should join a conservative, Christian youth organization.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 9:16 pm //

          The Congressional Charter is a piece of political fluff. Look it up. Carries no weight and bears no responsibility. Having a document from Congress has been reduced to consorting with liars, thieves and adulterers. Why doesn’t BSA surrender it.

        • In 1916, db, homosexuality was still correctly treated as the a deviant behavior. Congress then would no more see the need to charge the scouts with the defense of moral behavior than they would to charge them with promoting robotics. Problems like homosexuality used to be taken care of by families, not foisted off onto public associations while the parents played Angry Birds.

        • Hi Bob,
          In 1911, the Triangle Shirtwaist fire would kill 146 people, mostly women, because working conditions were unregulated. In 1916, blacks were tortured and killed by lynch mobs and Jim Crow ruled the South. In 1916, women in the US could not vote. The average life expectancy was about 50 years. In 1918, the flu pandemic would kill at 50-100 million people around the world. And yes, practicing homosexuality was a crime. None of those things are true in our country 100 years later.

    • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 6:01 pm // Reply

      I hope your man enough to follow thru with the threat.

      • Bob, that’s what they’re counting on. That most people or organizations are hot air, and will indeed stay with Scouting. I think they have greatly underestimated the integrity of those who stood for Scouting’s values.

        • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 7:23 pm //

          Lots of bluster over the last few months at roundtable…….

          Long time blow hards spouting off that they would quit if this happened.

          We will see who shows up next week.

          Let them quit……..The next generation of leader is ready to take over.

          With an open mind, and heart.

        • Scouting is about mentoring young boys. Why abandon the boys because we disagree with the national adult leaders. Seems like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And I am truly saddened at all of those who I though shared my convictions for inclusiveness are so quick to want leaders who have supported the organization leave. Shame on all of you with your holier than thou, “I’m for gay right’s so I’m more evolved than you” HYPOCRITES. It seems the biggest problem with the BOY Scouts is the ADULTS can’t get along with each other.

    • I too an a registered District level volunteer, and a Pack committee chair. I am so relieved that BSA is moving towards inclusiveness. It’s the right thing to do.

  7. Message to ‘openly’ Christian families: get back in the closet

    • Bob Basement // May 24, 2013 at 9:02 am // Reply

      As is their Choice…

      • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 10:50 am // Reply

        No Bob, I think keeping your Christian views to yourself will now be Scout Policy as has happened in all other homosexual insinuations into organizations. Those pesky Christians are just too intolerant boy-boy romance. I’ll take that bet

  8. Veronique Shoeamaker // May 23, 2013 at 5:32 pm // Reply

    Very sad to hear this. God is still on the throne.

  9. It is ASTOUNDING that over 60% of the members are AGAINST the change, yet over 60% of the vote approved? Is there that much of a disconnect between the administration and the members?

    • I realized that something was not right in the voting process when our beloved National President started “shilling” for the change and the proof came when he took a ad out in USA Today pushing the change.
      The fix was in.

      Why the secret ballots?
      No transparency there.
      People will say one thing and vote another.
      Stand for what you believe in!
      Publish how everyone voted.

      • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 7:27 pm // Reply

        My council cast all its vote for the change…..The SE sent out an email last week telling us

  10. Glad to see this passed. Although the restriction should be lifted on leadership as well!!! Sad to see so many negative comments….

  11. Trenton Spears // May 23, 2013 at 5:36 pm // Reply

    They won the battle but they lost the war. Sorry day for Scouting. Trenton Spears

  12. Sad day for Scouting. Once again the higher ups ignore the grassroots. I can’t believe we have to bow to appease less than 3% of the US population! This is the beginning of the end for all private organizations based upon a core idea, value or special interest. Organizations can’t be everything to everyone. Might as well pull Reverent from the Scout Law. BSA National certainly isn’t ‘Loyal’ to it’s volunteers. These are thoughts from a 30 year scouter.

  13. Well it is what it is. I would think everyone new this is how the vote would go. so whats next well here in Missouri many troops will lose there chartered organization. As for my Troop I will have to see what are church has to say. As for me a Scoutmaster for many many years I will keep serving youth because I still believe what we teach and learn through Scouting is still one of the best programs the is for youth.

    • Thanks Scott- that is what it is about: serving youth.

    • That’s what the whole sham was — to find out which tack to take. Yes, keep on serving the youth — in an organization that does not codify homosexuality as normal. BSA is not the only one.

    • That’s what the moral termites are counting on, Scott: that those who never really believed in the Oath and Law out number those who did. Unfortunately, they will discover too late that the program was the best BECAUSE of the Oath and Law they just voted to discard, not in spite of it.

      • There are many, many Scouts and Scouters that favored the change, yet still actually believe the Oath and Law.

  14. Scouting Supporter // May 23, 2013 at 5:37 pm // Reply

    For those leaving the program – good riddance. Scouting will be better and stronger without you.

    • If you truly believe that, I hope you are planning to put in the thousands of unpaid volunteer hours that our family has invested in the program.

      • I have put countless hours in the program. I am straight male and I am not afraid to say that I think Scouting is a fantastic program. I don’t care about the person’s religion (or lack of) or their sexual orientation. Scouting teaches great values and it should be available to any person regardless of race, religion or orientation.

        • “Scouting teaches great values” but just voted to ignore those values. They’ll continue to make the boys mouth the values but, as an organization, won’t even pay those values lip service.

  15. This is the right result, and I am glad to see it.

  16. I am pleased that this resolution passed. As a scoutmaster, I was dreading the day when I would find out one of my members was gay and they would have to be kicked out of scouts. I actually preferred the previous solution of allowing each chartered organization to set its membership policy. I felt that was the most reverent approach.

  17. The great care the BSA leadership has taken to to thoroughly consider and weigh all views is a credit to the organization. Thank you.

    YIS,

    Bill Kirk
    Sacramento, CA

  18. zealousagenda // May 23, 2013 at 5:41 pm // Reply

    This paragraph shows just how disconnected from reality the BSA is:

    “The Boy Scouts of America will not sacrifice its mission, or the youth served by the movement, by allowing the organization to be consumed by a single, divisive, and unresolved societal issue. As the National Executive Committee just completed a lengthy review process, there are no plans for further review on this matter.”

    The “unresolved societal issue” is actually quite resolved, as our laws prevent discrimination, and now most of our society is willing to reject it.

    The fight will continue, and we’ll be voting on this issue again within two years. Good riddance to those who feel that they are better than a socially just society.

  19. For me, it’s about supporting the youth. As a registered leader I will continue to support the youth, providing them the best experience I can.

    • ElGringo49 // May 23, 2013 at 6:01 pm // Reply

      I’m glad some people get it. It’s all about supporting the kids.

    • Tammy, I will be proud to serve with you.

  20. This vote is the first part of the full direction. Scouting needs to serve all youth, which it now states it will do. I’ve been a scout leader for over 30 years and would never discriminate against a boy that stated he was gay. Next up is to include gay adults. lt’s time to end bigotry in all forms.

    • Scouting Supporter // May 23, 2013 at 5:46 pm // Reply

      Right on!

  21. Chuck Provenzano // May 23, 2013 at 5:45 pm // Reply

    Whether or not you agree with the decision our focus should be where it has always been, preparing the young men and women in our programs for their future and our nation’s future. This is behind us let us move on and accomplish what needs to be done.

    • Scouting Supporter // May 23, 2013 at 5:50 pm // Reply

      Absolutely!

  22. Demetria Spencer // May 23, 2013 at 5:49 pm // Reply

    We teach our kids not to judge and to love one another. Now, look at the comments and tell me what is happening. As leaders, we can’t discriminate on personal issues. I will be happy to continue on as Cubmaster of my group. I hope everyone else will stop judging. I don’t see you pulling your kids out of school over a gay student. I don’t see you forcing them out of the country. It’s just a way of life people.

  23. My 10 year old son has a message for the leadership who voted to pass this resolution:

    From James:

    My life was about scouting until you ruined it. Good bye BSA.

    From Mom:

    I would like to say: “Will not the Judge of all the earth, do right?” We trust you Lord Jesus. We will carry our cross and come out from among them and be separate.

    We glory in God because, He is truly in control sending strong delusion that people believe a lie. Maranatha!!!!!

    • Kimberly, the comment is most likely not from your son but you…bet all he cares about is learning new skills, having fun and camping. While you preach the bible…maybe your family is in the wrong organization

      • Trenton Spears // May 23, 2013 at 9:51 pm // Reply

        Lori Maybe the organization left Kimberly and her son values. Go’s two ways doesn’t it. Lori you seem to be so judgemental you speculate and comment on subjects you have no ideal how a person feels or functions. Trenton Spears

    • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 6:39 pm // Reply

      Shame your god is a hateful one……The god I know loves all his children without exception

      • My God is important enough to capitalize his name.

        • My God forgives spelling errors.

        • Touché, Debbie. Nice.

    • I don’t know what your statement means, but if God is in control, then He must have wanted the BSA to pass this resolution.

      • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 7:30 pm // Reply

        I was speaking of kimberlys god

    • James, your mom is right that Jesus is the Judge. He doesn’t expect a 10 yr old boy to take on that responsibility. Ask your mom to let you stay in scouting. The grace of God will be with you.

    • Dave Engh // May 24, 2013 at 1:11 am // Reply

      >> He is truly in control
      Then the vote must be what He wants, no?

    • I’m sorry that your son feels his experience in scouting would be diminished because another individual who is different from him will also be allowed to participate. I believe there is plenty of room in the Boy Scouts for people with many diverse backgrounds, families, and beliefs.

    • So sad that you are teaching your son to hate.

  24. Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 5:57 pm // Reply

    Well to those of you leaving…..See ya,

    The program will live on without your narrow vision of the world.

    • What an inclusive statement Bob. Glad to see you are fully supportive of those that share your position. In fact isn’t this what this discussion is largely about. Why would we want people in scouting who are not just like us, or share all of our values?? Hmmmm…..

      • Bob Basement // May 24, 2013 at 9:07 am // Reply

        I would have stayed in scouting regardless of the outcome of the vote. I have accepted the vote

        I am not going to turn my back on the youth I serve for any reason.

  25. Scott Evans // May 23, 2013 at 5:58 pm // Reply

    I now expect the funds to come pouring in from the GLBT community. HA! Right, that will be the day!

    • Why would they? They are still discriminated against. When the boys turn 18, they are kicked out. Their moms and dads and guardians and grandparents can’t all be leaders.

  26. Labels aside, what activities are we expected to allow. Hand holding? Kissing? What about when boyfriends break up?
    What about the gay scout that gets picked last or that no scout wants to buddy with, tent with or shower with?
    What if parents don’t want a gay scout to tent, shower etc. with their child? What about complaints of “looks” or “gazes” or “touches” whether real or imagined?
    The list goes on. This raises more uncertainty than anything else.

    • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 6:07 pm // Reply

      You have never been involved in a coed venture crew…..

      No different….Most crews have a no PDA public display of affection policy……The youth monitor it…..

      • we don’t let our girls tent or shower with our boys
        Don’t assume you know who I am or what I have done

    • Didn’t they say the same thing about blacks back in the 60′s?

      • The vote didn’t have anything to do with ethnicity.

        • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 9:04 pm //

          While that is true debbie, But the BSA was one of last hold outs for segregation…… Not something to be real proud of.

        • Dave Engh // May 23, 2013 at 9:07 pm //

          Brain is making a point using American history, parts of which you might never have learned or have forgotten. The issues we’re currently having with gays had pretty much the same statements said about including blacks just a few decades ago. More recently in Scouting, about having female leaders.

      • Standard red herring of the anti-hetero, anti-Christian crowd. Skin color is not a lifestyle choice and the scout Oath and Law make no mention of being caucasian, only reverent and morally straight. No race is antithetical to scouting values.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 9:19 pm //

          Plainly stated, Good job!

  27. For all those ‘leaders’ saying they are leaving… You obviously were in it for the wrong reasons. I disagree with this decision as we will now have to tell a young gay man on earning his Eagle Scout award congrat and get out… The change sends the wrong message!!!!

    • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 6:17 pm // Reply

      one battle at a time

      Savor the doin the right thing

  28. Well done, BSA. It was about time…

  29. As a young man, I was proud to earn my Eagle Scout. I was a gay Scout, as were others in my Troop. We were no different than any of the other Scouts. No one was molested. No one was hurt. The statements of those who think that letting gay boys in will harm straight boys are simply unfounded.

    I’m very proud to be an Eagle Scout today.

  30. Kelly Horton // May 23, 2013 at 6:15 pm // Reply

    I guess there will be an influx of ex-scouts and scouting into Royal Rangers. They do not allow gays or their agenda into their Outposts. The Outpost Locator tab in in the middle of their website.

    royalrangers.com

    My son’s comment:

    “If scouts is going against God’s law, I don’t want anything to do with it”

    • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 6:19 pm // Reply

      I am glad he will not join me in the brotherhood of Eagles

      • Take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard when you start insulting youth, Basementdweller.

        • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 8:27 pm //

          ya norm, your right.

          I am tired of this. I have some bible thumping parents in my unit that have come in every single week with some internet printed stuff regarding homosexuality…… I am surprised that I haven’t got a phone call tonight with them notifying me they are pulling their scout out……

          I speak with god daily and he has never told me being gay was evil, I carry too many of my own stones to judge anyone else load……

          Some of the finest folks I know are gay…… good people are hard enough to find.

          Old kelly has a big steaming cup of hate going on……Kinda of a shame.

      • Kelly Horton // May 23, 2013 at 7:53 pm // Reply

        They are not my brothers. Neither are you. You defile the rank just as they defile themselves. You should turn your colors in with all of the rest of them.

        • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 8:15 pm //

          So what is the highest rank in the Royal rangers….

          Wait for it wait for it…….

          I have no clue. Neither does most of America.

          I am not the one doin the hatin…..

        • Kelly Horton // May 23, 2013 at 8:40 pm //

          The United States Army, Navy and the Marines recognize the Gold Medal of Achievement. You are the hate filled bigot. You attack my son’s convictions which shows how pathetic you really are. My son read your comment and thinks your are a loser. You are the type of leader that turns off the parents as they vote with their feet. Just because a person does not believe the same as you do, does not mean that they hate someone. Grow up and reflect what scouts is trying to teach. I have met many awesome adult leaders and scouts. I can now add one more poor example of a scouter to the list. I am just glad that the good leader list is bigger than the sucky leader list.

        • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 9:06 pm //

          Isn’t the military already open to gays????

        • Kelly, it sound like Bob is no more respectful of your views than you are of the the views of those who feel that homosexuality is not a sin, but the way God made some of us. Scouting is not about “going against God’s laws” They are simply leaving that judgement up to God. God does not condone adultery, yet we have no membership policy excluding adulterers. Let us not teach our children to look down upon the sinners that sin the sins that seem the most sinful to us righteous folks. How about love one another? What do you think Bob, can you get behind that one?

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 10:10 pm //

          Homosexuality is immoral behavior, unnatural in nature and indulgent in purpose. Facts do not constitute judgment, just the truth.

        • Bob’s obviously a real classy guy.

  31. Concerned About Youth // May 23, 2013 at 6:16 pm // Reply

    I’m quoting from the Membership Resolution Points of Clarification:
    “Some have asserted that this proposal will put children at higher risk of being sexually abused or bullied and that the organization will not be able to administer this policy while protecting the safety and privacy of all Scouts.

    The BSA would never consider a proposal that increased risk to young people. To be clear, the BSA makes no connection between the sexual abuse or victimization of a child and homosexuality. The BSA takes strong exception to this assertion. Some of the nation’s leading experts reinforce this position.”

    Except this does not address youth on youth harassment. For example, a 17 year old who is homosexual will share tents, bathrooms and showers with 15 year old young men who are not. That is not pedophilia, but it does violate the principles of Safe Scouting. We would not expect young women to have to shower with heterosexual young men, yet now we are not williing to provide young men that same protection. Not to mention undersge camp staff who are in positions of authority. The premise of Yout Protection has been to avoid the potential – not because all men are potentially interested in teen boys, but because there might be and the process eliminates the potential. Now, where youth are concerned, there is no protection from other youth.

    The Youth Protection policies of the Venturing program are the perfect example here. Read the questions from the handout from Venturing Yout Protection: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/ypt/pdf/25-026.pdf

    I have to admit, I expected this result. I am truly saddened by it. I hold no animosity for homosexuals whatsoever. I am happy to let them live their lives as they see fit. I appreciate that young homosexual men need training, role models, etc, but I don’t see how you can have a youth program where you take young men out for days at a time and integrate this way. And now, I can see no justification for segregating male and female members.

    • Well said.

      • Concerned About Youth. // May 23, 2013 at 8:32 pm // Reply

        Funny – I have people giving my a hands down when I didn’t make a judgement at all on anyone. I just brought up a real issue that needs to be addressed. Rather than make an effort at addressing it, they would denounce my bringing it up.
        That’s kind of a summary of the entire issue it seems.

    • In what way does your hypothetical prove your point unless you assume that a 17 year old homosexual boy will be attracted to a 15 year old heterosexual boy or even make any over gesture. We already prohibit hazing, which has been applied to instances where any boy or group of boys commits any act that intimidates, embarrasses or threatens physical harm to another boy. We should expect all boys to act with respect toward one another.

      In all probability, you have or have had gay boys in your troop.

      • Concerned About Youth. // May 23, 2013 at 10:59 pm // Reply

        ILGoldst – “In what way does your hypothetical prove your point unless you assume that a 17 year old homosexual boy will be attracted to a 15 year old heterosexual boy or even make any over gesture.” No more assumption than the existing Youth Protection Plan covers coed activities. It’s silly to expect that all young men would be interested in all young women. Or likewise, all the Youth Protection guidelines. Using your comment, all adult men are not attracted to teenage boys, yet we put into place barriers to minimize the risk.
        All I ask, is for someone to provide a realistic methodology to provide young men the same protection we provide young women.
        Now on my hypothetical, are you suggesting that it’s unreasonable? I don’t at all. To address your last comment – yes, I have had. I even know of one from when I was a Scout years and years ago. I also know that in 2 cases I know, that young men who had never before expressed any interest in homosexuality, began expressing interest after their association. Maybe that was coincidental, or maybe they found the courage from that association, but who knows. I do know in those cases there was inappropriate behavior. One of those I saw first hand – was invited to participate and chose not to. So tell me again how this will prevent harassment. It won’t. It removes even the few barriers that existed before.

    • Any scout outing i have ever been on, the boys go to the shower house wearing swim trunks and they never take them off. Besides how many homosexual boys have already gone through scouting without saying a word and never made sexual advances on another boy?

      • Concerned About Youth. // May 23, 2013 at 11:01 pm // Reply

        Because it “probably happens all the time” is an interesting response you guys give. How about answering the question about how many boys have been harassed without exposing it for fear of embarrassment. Your arguments would never hold water applied to young women is my contention.

    • Well said- but still greatly saddened over this decision. I predict that soon…. the words “Eagle Scout,” will lose their significance in a very short period of time.

    • I can’t wait till the next financial report comes out from our district and the try to explain the drop in support from FOS and Popcorn. I am in shock how our local and national leaders led us down this path. I know what comes next –well to be fully inclusive this whole God thing is kinda not trending well in the national polls so its gotta go . It’s downhill from here folks. National has the same morals as Madonna. I will stay in scouts for now. I will no longer support FOS . I will no longer sell popcorn and give 40% to district. I will no longer volunteer for my local council .I will buy as little as possible from my local scout shop- forget about being Loyal to them , they haven’t been to me. I will work only for my troop and its boys as long as it still has God as a core value.

    • According the Charter and Bylaws, I believe that amending of the Bylaws requires 2/3′s vote of the majority attending to pass a resolution. Section 5 – and the meeting which was called in this case was a Special Meeting – meaning no other topics could be voted upon. 61.44% is not 66.66% votes required.

      Does anyone have another way this vote was to be counted?

    • Throughout life, one is known by the company they keep. Why is the college you pick so important, your friends, your career, all by association you become the person you are. Going camping and living with Gay Scouts is inconsistent with the image many parents want for their sons. Sorry, being Gay does not fly with being Morally Straight and Mentally awake not to mention sleeping with our straight son who is a scout. This is the beginning of the end of Scouting, 103 years and 80 years of scouting legacy i our family down the drain just so a bunch of Gay people can win an argument, wouldn’t they rather just go shopping and have lunch like the rest of the girls?

      • As a group in this discussion – we haven’t agreed on very much. But can we all at least agree that Clayton is a bigot?

        • Fred Cooper // May 28, 2013 at 3:52 pm //

          I would ask if Clayton is labeled a bigot, we can agree that db is most certainly a bigot. He is hateful and intolerant to Clayton and fits the definition perfectly.

          There is no hate in what Clayton is saying. Freedom of Association is guaranteed by the Constitution and anyone who lives by the common-sense rules of avoiding bad associations, especially those influencing your children. He does want his kids being influenced by youth or adults with same gender sexual attraction. Seems natural even by natures law. Surely you accept that pro-creation requires male and female in the natural world and a child should understand the natural way of things before experimenting with alternative sexual behavior.

          Many of you are intolerant of Christians and their beliefs. Does that make you a bigot?

        • Karen Zeller // May 28, 2013 at 3:56 pm //

          Hmm. The part I noticed in Clayton’s comment was that all girls just want to shop and go to lunch. So that is some pretty heavy stereotyping, wouldn’t you say?

        • Fred Cooper // May 28, 2013 at 4:15 pm //

          But does it constitute bigotry? Really? Every time i mention I am from the South, I am stereotyped on this list. Folks think I must be late for a lynching. Not bigotry.

        • Fred, noone here wants to lynch you, regardless of how much we disagree with you.

        • Fred Cooper // May 28, 2013 at 5:03 pm //

          Actually, I was thinking others would think I would be late to attending one. Some folks think that despicable act still happens here.

          I just think the words “hate” and “bigotry” get thrown around carelessly so I try to open the accusers eyes to the fact that no one I know truly hates homosexual people. They would not limit their constitutional rights in any way.

          “Tolerance” is looked on as a virtue. I do not see it that way. I have to get to know someone to allow them to be more than an acquaintance or accept how they behave and I hope it is vice-versa. Discernment and “discrimination” are not the same thing.

        • Actually Fred, there were was more to what Clayton said than that all girls want to go shopping. His implication was that gay men are girlie – so all the gays should want to join the girls and go shopping rather join scouts. So he was stereotyping gays and he was stereotyping women. I have no idea what religion Clayton is. And I never said anything about Christians – so I don’t know where you got the idea that I view Christians as bigots. (because I don’t) I was talking about one person who was probably purposely throwing fuel on the fire rather than addressing the issues at hand like you’re trying to do.

        • Karen Zeller // May 28, 2013 at 6:48 pm //

          Well, stereotyping is certainly a necessary condition for bigotry; whether it is a sufficient condition may be open to debate. The absence of such broad stereotyping would have been evidence contrary to bigotry; the presence of it leaves the door open.

      • @Clayton,
        The vast majority of boys in Scouting go to public or private school with a few gay kids, go to church with a few gay kids, play sports, do 4H, play in the band, and do all the other typical youth activities with a few gay kids. No one judges these kids for doing so, or for keeping this company; it is not generally an issue at all. The BSA is no different.
        They have also made it clear that “any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting, and that no member may use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda”.
        If you would prefer that your son not share a tent with a particular Scout, I’m sure your scoutmaster would accommodate that request.

        • Fred Cooper // May 28, 2013 at 6:22 pm //

          Do you seriously think that BSA will allow a Scoutmaster to place a homosexual boy in a tent alone when no other Scout wants to tent with him? Does a Scoutmaster want to place an older homosexual Scout with a new Scout? You can bet there will be a way to tell Scoutmasters what they have to do to avoid that situation. How to act and speak and teach the Scouts how to act and think. Sorry, not for me.

          BSA never thinks of the leaders in the field. A Scoutmaster or ASM who does not want to deal with sexually confused boys who want to know if they are truly homosexual and want to test the waters . I didn’t sign on for that and that is fiine with BSA and me.

          Yeah, all of the Scouts in the Troop go to public schools. Middle Schools of over 600 and 2 High Schools of over 2,000. They see it all, sexual expression through PDA’s, larceny, lying, cheating, illegal drug use, alcohol use and yes homosexuals expression through dress, PDA’s and habits. All in a County of 55,000. Guess what, many Scouts just want a safe place to escape all that including homosexuality.

          The jury is out on absolutely no sexuality if you are homosexual. Its very names requires sexuality. Now that open and avowed is out of Policy language, do you not think the boundaries will be tested with GLAAD encouraging youth to join to change the organization from the inside?

        • Fred asked “Do you seriously think that BSA will allow a Scoutmaster to place a homosexual boy in a tent alone when no other Scout wants to tent with him?”

          Yes. We have scouts tent alone all the time. Some sleep in tents alone. Some in hammocks. The younger boys want to buddy up – but often the older boys will want a tent to themselves. I’d never force a boy to share a tent with someone he didn’t want to. And the BSA won’t create a rule requiring it.

        • Trenton Spears // May 28, 2013 at 7:09 pm //

          Fred as always you hit a home run in your discription of what are youth are exposed to. I have long believed that the BSA is a non – denomination sanctuary and a place of protection from the elements of declining values. I have seen the results of public schools, hollywood, TV and video games. When one of my Scouts want to bring their video games or any electronic media to a scout function I make them put it away till they leave for home. This is probably the only situation that does not allow the Scout to use thier electric devises under my stewardship. In many cases the Scout leader is a mentor for values and with a declining moral society the need for a value based youth organization is more needed now than ever. The combination of Church and a Scouting program is about the only chance to save our youth from the evilness of our society. Fred thanks for all you do for Americas youth. Trenton Spears

  32. The BSA voted to abandon its core principles and instead chase the mythical pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. There is no point in supporting an organization that chooses not to defend – or even honor – the values for which it was created. This is a dark, dark day for our society.

    • “More than 60%” — but not of its members, not of its Scouts, not of its Councils.

      Very sad to see that this was all just a sham. Shame on them.

      • I wonder if any executives at the BSA have got the brains or the guts to see that the majority of the people posting on this site aren’t exactly happy how they are being represented. Let us all vow to hit them hard with our pocketbooks and our resolve in helping our boy’s but not a penny for them.

  33. Being a volunteer in the BSA has NEVER been about “supporting” our youth! It has (until now) been about TEACHING them, teaching the the core values of Scouting which has always been a Christian based Organization (until now). When my own children look back as adult i hope they remember the times that they “hated me” for not supporting them and their bad decisions, and also Thank God that I was the parent and Leader that I am!!!

    • Sorry, Scott, but the BSA has never been a “Christian based Organization” – nothing about that in the 1911 Handbook. Nothing in the policies. It IS faith-based, but, per the Declaration of Religious Principle, is “absolutely nonsectarian”. There are religious emblems for a variety of non-Christian faiths.

      • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 8:30 pm // Reply

        I believe you can think Mr. West for the religion addition….

        • Concerned About Youth. // May 23, 2013 at 8:34 pm //

          Uh, no. You can thank Baden-Powell. He was very vocal on the role of religion in Scouting (even Christianity). He just didn’t care which religion you were.

        • MT_Momma // May 23, 2013 at 8:47 pm //

          Bob, B-P gave us Duty to God, but it was West who added morally straight (which had nothing to do with sexuality in 1911) and reverent.

      • The BSA simply stopped discriminating against youth, that isn’t abandoning their principles, it’s supporting them.

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 10:01 pm //

          Sorry, BSA accepted immoral behavior where it had not before. Denying immoral children is not discrimination.

  34. Scouting has been and always will be for the youth. Adults who are leaders are here to continue the pass onto the boys their knowledge. As a member of the scouting family I am glad to see that the resolution has been passed, now lets look at including gay adults

    • At least you’re honest about it, David.

      • KS,
        I have been following this debate for many months. My opinion on here has always been an honest one. I have always said that scouting is for the youth and we should listen to the youth, for if it wasn’t for the youth we as ASM’s, SM’s, ASL’s or SL’s we wouldn’t be part of scouts for there would be no scouts. I would like to believe that no matter who you are, what your beliefs are, where you come from, or came from you me, anyone has some form of knowledge to pass onto the youth. There are members on this site, that believe I shouldn’t be saying anything on the topic, However I am a Scout Leader, albeit a Scout Leader from Australia, I believe that the BSA is making the right decision about allowing gays even tho it’s not full inclusion only partial inclusion into the family of Souting. It doesn’t matter the country you are in Scouts Australia, Scouts UK, Scouts Canada or the BSA we all wear the WOSM badge, therefore we are one family the family of scouting. I will willingly stand next to anyone who supports an all inclusive scouting movement for either youth, or for youth and adults and call them my brother or sister.

        David Richardson
        Scout Leader
        Scouts Australia
        Western Austalian division

    • chinapete65 // May 23, 2013 at 7:37 pm // Reply

      “Scouting has been and always will be for the youth. Adults who are leaders are here to continue the pass onto the boys their knowledge.” Well put, David. This is something we all should remember. Another item to remember is not all gay persons are pedophiles.

      • Pedophilia is not at issue; the youth served by Boy Scouts and Venturing are outside the range of pedophiles, who are attracted to pre-pubescent children. The homosexual preoccupation with teenagers is deep-rooted from Classical Athens (see Plato’s “Symposium”) to the Victorian Era (see the works of the Uranian Poets, Henry Tuke and Baron von Gloeden, Mann’s “Death in Venice” etc) to contemporary times (see any of the literature advertised in the back of physique magazines). This isn’t pedophilia, the boys involved aren’t children, they’re young men.

        • Concerned About Youth. // May 23, 2013 at 8:38 pm //

          M N – the pedophile thing is nothing more than a redirect tactic. It’s a way of directing the conversation away from that uncomfortable topic. There’s a reason why the term Twink exists.
          This campaign has never been about Scouting – it’s about legitimizing a behavior that’s considered sinful by some and makes those who practice it uncomfortable.

    • After including gay adults, then lets look at removing the pledge of allegiance, then God out of the oath etc, etc. That’s what this is all about. Surely you see?

      • Bonnie,
        You must be a very special person, and for that I tip my hat to you.

        I can tell a black man, due to the color of his skin,
        I can tell a Asian due to the shape of their eyes,
        I can tell an American due to their accent

        I cannot tell, by looking at someone if they are gay or not. There is only two ways I now of telling if someone is gay, I ask them, or They tell me. Do you ask everyone you meet if they are gay, I guess it would go something like this ” Hi, I’m David I’m heterosexual, are you gay?”, sorry that’s right you (Bonnie) can tell just by looking. I don’t car if someone is gay or not. What i look for in a person is “What can I learn from this person”.

        As far as God is concerned, I am neither an atheist nor do I practise a religion. As a child I used to because my parents took me to church every Sunday, however when I turned 16 I stopped. Why? Because I have trouble believing in a single person having ultimate power, ultimate control, there are also flaws in the bible. Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and earth”. If God created the heavens where was he before the beginning. However I don’t judge someone for their religious beliefs for we are all free to choose. Likewise during prayers at troop meeting I show my respect to those who do believe.

        Does this mean I am any less a person, does it mean I don’t have the right to share my knowledge with scouts from my troop, or should I hang up my scout uniform and stove pipe the knowledge and experience so one day like me it will die and be lost forever

  35. Can we poll the vote. I would like to see how my Counsel voted. I’m disappointed. Not because gay boys will be allowed. I mean how many gay 11-13 year olds are really out there. That’s the majority of scouts. No it’s because now we’re just one step away from gay adults being allowed. You watch, in just a few years policy will change on that as well. Adults can drive their agendas much better than a youth can. Anyway – aren’t we all looking forward to the first legally gay Eagle Scout celebration. Can’t wait to get that over with.

    • If you mean the “gay agenda” is being left alone and treated like anyone else, I agree.

    • David Engh // May 23, 2013 at 7:17 pm // Reply

      If you want to know how your Concil voted, ask them.

    • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 8:11 pm // Reply

      My council sent out an email saying that all of their votes would be cast in favor of the resolution

      • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 9:25 pm // Reply

        Give me thumbs down all you want it doesn’t change how my councils leadership chose to vote.

        • My council Sam Houston Area Council voted down the proposal. One voter had a homosexual son and voted for it.

        • Bob Basement // May 26, 2013 at 12:34 pm //

          The thing you don’t understand is the council reps vote how the council tells them too… So while your trying to make the fellow sound noble all he was voting exactly how he was told to.

    • I am against the propaganda of homosexuality

    • The actual voting members are the Chartered Organization Reps and the President of the Councils. 70% of Charter Oraganizations are faith based sponsors. Of that number, 25% are Mormon, who approved of the measure. This means, that approximately 40% of units will not be rechartered by their current sponsors come Jan. 1

  36. God is great! Excellent news, ashamed it took us so long to get here. Now, let’s fix the membership policy and ensure Eagles turning 18 and Leaders can be included, as well…

    • Brian, I agree that God is Great. But, please inform us all where you can prove that being gay is an acceptible teaching of God. Not the God of a word for word literal translation Bible. God hates sin period… all kinds. Just because a group of people choose to agreee that something is ok does not make it right. Also, what does morallly straight mean now?

      There were many a person that thought Hitler was a great leader, that definitely didn’t make what he did a good thing.

      Sorry, if you really didn’t believe in what the Scouts stood for in the first place,then why did you ever join. Give a real answer, research what you believe in and tell us what the real goal is.

      You an never vote people to accept you. Sorry

      • Mom of Two Scouts // May 23, 2013 at 8:28 pm // Reply

        Morally straight does not equal sexually straight.
        I know of many sexually straight people who are not morally straight. Hitler, for example.

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 9:58 pm //

          Your are a sick person, using Hitler to support acceptance of homosexual youth.

        • Mom of Two Scouts // May 23, 2013 at 11:26 pm //

          @Fred Cooper: I used Hitler because Martin, to whom I was replying, used him as an example.
          I had to “reply” to myself because your post did not have this option for me.

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 11:33 pm //

          Doesn’t make you or him right. You should do as I did and point out the sickness of the example, not perpetuate it.

          IMHO, this entire issue revolves around accepting boy-boy sexual attraction and normal and moral or immoral and unnatural. I believe the latter. For me, enough of people who believe as I believe capitulated to provide a majority and we will rue the day this proposal passed. I just hope BSA is more open reporting boy-boy sexual assault than they were adult-boy sexual assault.

          NAMBLA Troop #!! How does that sound?

        • Fred, I don’t see what Martin states is for homosexual youth being in Boy Scouts. I read just the opposite. Sounds like he is just pointing out that if you didn’t believe in what the Scouts stood for in the first place why, as a gay youth, would you join them a agree with their standards etc.

          sounds like the intention is to destroy a great organization by breaking it apart and trying to force something upon a group of private citizens, hence the statement: you can not vote for people to accept you.

          No one would ever normally go out and join any group if they did not believe in what it stood for, be it a church, club or any organization. The only logical intention would be to break it apart.

          It is very sad that we let a minority group determine everything that happens in this country. The leaders are all greedy and money was the determining factor. Just look into what their salaries are. Everything they do is about money. It is the local Troop that has always made the difference.

        • Bob Basement // May 24, 2013 at 8:45 am //

          How about adulterers and folks who are divorced????

          are they moral folks in gods eyes????

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 10:47 am //

          I think the pro-revised policy people do think adulterers, thieves and liars are certainly welcome on Scouting. How are we to know and who are we to judge? We can;t invade their privacy by asking questions. Witness testimony is hearsay after all.

          On the other hand, as far as divorced, some were forced into it by irrational Spouses and should be judged on their own merits.

      • I say if the BSA is banning all scouts and scouters for sin than the BSA would be no more. None of us are without sin, including you Sir.

  37. I as a leader with over 14 years in scouting, am done. This is pandoras box. To throw away your morals for greed is what is wrong with this country in the first place. There are no morals anymore, we cant even include god in a sentence without backlash. Next will be the atheists, guess we all should just throw our bible away.
    What a horrible day

    • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 8:32 pm // Reply

      hmmm, the methodist church welcomes all.

      Last i heard so do the mormons and catholic……Hate the sin love the sinner…

      • Dave Engh // May 23, 2013 at 8:51 pm // Reply

        As does the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. An issue of doctrine that separates us from our Missouri Synod brethren.

        • Dave Engh // May 23, 2013 at 10:22 pm //

          Downvoting my comment won’t make the ELCA change their policy. We already lived through the knee-jerk reactions to the statement.of inclusion.

      • Bob, I like your responses to the resolution and would like to add some fellow Scouter support… I had a conversion earlier about this. My point was that a church will let sinners in. How else can you evangelize? A church will let a adulterer, a cheat, a thief, even a convicted murder on probation into its church as a means for them to seek forgiveness.

        Those that are against this resolution, would have to believe that homosexuality is an unforgivable sin, that if one were to say that they are attracted to the opposite sex that they are locked in forever to a life a damnation and can never return from it.

        Those that are against the resolution would also have to support that professed homosexual youth cannot be helped by the Scouting movement. A Scout could even be joking around and be barred from Scouting because of it.

        Another point that was made by another Scouter, homosexuals are already in the Units. This simply allows for them to be open it about. Otherwise the “policy” would be teaching, “don’t tell, until after you are out of Scouts”. So much for teaching Trustworthy … and that’s the first point of the Scout Law.

        There are others that profess that BSA is a Christian based organization. I guess that they better not tell that to the recipients of the Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, Meher Baba, and the Zoroastrian religious awardees (which according to the BSA publication of religious awards are acceptable to BSA).

        Now, you can’t complain about something without offering a solution. I understand the thoughts on youth-on-youth sexual advances and potential hazing. But don’t complain about it unless you have a recommendation of a solution. Most camps have already changed to single shower stalls.

        I am an Eagle Scout and I believe in the Scouting movement. I also believe that everyone can benefit from the Scouting movement.

        • Concerned About Youth. // May 23, 2013 at 11:08 pm //

          SM-James – “But don’t complain about it unless you have a recommendation of a solution. Most camps have already changed to single shower stalls.” James, the solution already existed. That solution has been removed now. My contention is that there is no solution that allows Scouting to exist as it does today without endangering young men. If you disagree, I am completely open to your thoughts on how it can be inclusive while protecting the young men.
          This is not about blocking young homosexual men from Scouting (and has nothing to do with forgiveness) but about Youth Protection. Show me the functional alternative, and I’d be glad to get on board.

        • Jrsatty // May 24, 2013 at 8:31 am //

          SM-James: your comment is missing one important point. Yes the church’s allow all sinners in including homosexuals. They do however demand that the homosexual stop all homosexual activity. The sin must stop. Here the boy scouts have no mechanism for a practicing avowed homosexual scout to be kept from the Pack/Troop. This is an abomination.

      • scouter-for-life // May 23, 2013 at 10:19 pm // Reply

        Accepting someone us not condoning someones actions. Remember Jesus ate with the prostitutes and tax collectors. He accepted them but did not condone what they did.

        • Jrsatty // May 24, 2013 at 8:33 am //

          Scouter: Yes he did. And he warned them to go and sin no more. Jesus knew that if they did not stop their sinful behavior, they would be condemned to hell. Pretty harsh but that is reality. Don’t create your own reality. And yes the scouts before this were able to me these types of judgments in the best interest of the organization. Alas no more.

    • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 9:03 pm // Reply

      I am with you Ben. Scouting has no place for me but does have a place for those who define their life by a sexual attraction. Woe.

      • Fred, it was BSA that in the 1990′s defined their life by a sexual attraction. Now we are back to the policy of my youth, where we don’t make an issue of this. Most of these boys would rather not be labeled, except to be labeled as scouts and some day Eagle Scouts. I hope you will stay in scouting and continue to serve the boys that you have been so dedicated to in the past.

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 10:18 pm //

          Thank you for your comment but I will not enable homosexual behavior in a troop of adolescent boys. I will not be placed in a position to try to convince a straight boy to tent with a homosexual boy to satisfy BSA homosexual acceptance policy. I am unequipped for it, I do not support it or believe it is healthy morally, spiritually or physically and I will not stand for it.

        • Fred I have a extra tent I can send to u so u can have a tent for boys that are NOT afraid to sleep in the same tent with gay children. DO NOT GET ME WRONG I do not believe that children under the age of 16 should be sexually active but unfortunately it does happen. Relax homosexuality is everywhere and to think that you have never encountered anyone that is a homosexual is pure nonsense wake up its a fact its not a sin its a different way of life. Quit being so put off on the matter and respect good people come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and orientation.

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 10:38 pm //

          Homosexuality is not everywhere. A great fallacy of the homosexual community. BSA will not allow me to put the homosexual Scout in a separate tent which is exactly what I would do. They will require me to separate the intolerant straight Scout. Buddy system is in effect. Scouts sleep 2 or 3 if an odd number.

          Sorry, I have homosexuals in my extended family and some of my vendors are homosexual. I avoid the rest,

          Nope, its immoral, not a way of life. I guess goat-sex to you is an alternative acceptable lifestyle as long as the goat is not injured?

        • Really goats? I thought we were talking about young men, I can send you the tent for gay young men if you would like. I really do not believe that any gay children would risk their scout career to try to fondle another child in the tent with more children in their with them. Boys want to be scouts to learn and experience the great things scouting offers, As boy scout policy stands, it is never one on one with any scout through badges etc so sleeping arrangements would be the same. If there was 3 to a tent and 1 scout was gay, it is highly doubtful that a pass would be made at either of the remaining scouts, as they would outnumber the gay scout and tell the other scouts and at the very least be shunned by the troop. If a boy joins scouts they must agree to a hands to yourself policy or risk loosing their efforts towards badges etc by removal from the scouting program. Scouting is a lot of work from our sons, they will want to do anything they can to remain in the program.

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 10:59 pm //

          I am sure you are familiar with how the Homosexual Community has worked its agenda into organizations before. Straight Federal workers are terrified to say anything to LGTB employees for fear of reprisal.

          I guess, unlike you, i have nver met a homosexual that could lived without sexual desire and if a young boy thinks homosexuality defines who he is and BSA says thats cool then why would he not allow is same sex attraction to take place in a tent with vulnerable boy who is confused sexually?

          He can’t be shunned. it will now be against Scout Policy and constitute bullying. heck, I’ve been told teasing in any form now constitutes bullying. I don’t want young men walking on eggshells because an immoral Scout cannot be excluded from the Group. Sexuality has no place between young boys in Scouting. I want no part of it and will recommend Scout age boys seek other options for character education. Scouting does not offer it anymore.

        • Agreed sexuality has no place in scouting I am simply stating that the gay boys that join would simply be in scouting to be a scout and to do scout things,not to find a date for prom or to try to orientate another boy.. You sound like a good scout person – maybe this solution would work with you, if you get a gay orientated scout in your group, offer their parent a place to help in your troop, this way while camping the parent is along for the trip and can monitor the child more easily. make a new policy of a 3 buddy system. This way everyone is protected. Well goodnight have a nice day and nite. Its not the end of the world, its just a new way to cope with it.

        • ScoutMommaX3 // May 23, 2013 at 10:35 pm //

          Thank you Fred!! That is exactly how my scouts feel, they do not ‘hate’ these individuals they just do not want to have to share tents, showers, etc. with them – it’s personal and they are allowed to feel that way! And so are you – God bless you Fred!!

        • Concerned About Youth. // May 23, 2013 at 11:15 pm //

          Tani,
          My question for you is would you have a problem putting your 16 year old daughter in a tent with a young heterosexual man?
          Note, nowhere am I passing judgment on the practice – that’s up to each and everyone to determine with their own conscience. But this issue is about the young men. Where is their protection – why do we insist on denying them the same respect and protection we give our young women?
          Funny, one of the headlines today is one of the military academies prosecuting some guy for looking at female cadets in the showers. Yet, military men are forced to be in that situation now.

        • Boy Scouting is boy scouting girls do not camp along with the boys unless its a family camp out then each family would have their own tent. No I would not let my sons camp in the same tent as a teenage female unless it was under adult supervision and the female was a family member. Not everyone can afford tents but if it came down to a family camp out with my sons and a teenage girl and my self it would either be 2 tents or all in one and separate sides of the tent

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 11:25 pm //

          I guess we need to invest in tent separators since their popularity in Scout Troops will now explode. Better not include a zipper though…

        • Concerned About Youth. // May 24, 2013 at 12:19 am //

          Tani, Scouting is coed for certain programs. Venturing is a BSA program for ages 14-22. They currently have Youth Protection guidelines that require separate facilities. It’s not because we think every boy or girls is attracted to each other, but because there is the potential – even worse if it is one sided and someone feels harassed.
          Yet we don’t protect young men now.
          Although, I have to admit you are the only person who has suggested any sort of policy. 3 on 3 always would provide a certain degree of protection – although I’m not sure how workable that would really be.

        • Scouter Bob // May 24, 2013 at 1:10 am //

          Well said Brian. I was out of the scouting movement for just over 20 years when my sons wanted to join. I was really surprised at how homophobic the organization had become when I came back (it’s been 8 years since I’ve been back). As it happened, when I was scouting in my youth it turned out that there were 2 scouts who were gay – one is even an Eagle Scout. If there were gay scouts during my day then I suspect there were gay scouts before my time and after my time. Do you know who is gay is who straight in your Pack or Troop? I suspect many don’t… BTW, I shared a tent with these guys and my wife says I’m still straight.

      • Fred,
        Sorry to butt in here but I’m going to give you my two cents worth of thought. Before you respond please read and digest the following words.

        How are you going to know if a boy in your troop is gay or not. The only way you are going to know this is to do one of the following

        1. On your membership application form you will have to ask the question “Are you a homosexual? YES/NO”

        2. Ask the youth member directly

        3. Force the youth member to tell, just because yo suspect.

        Fred all of these are an invasion of privacy. Unless you ask you will never know. Fred accept someone for who they are, pass on your knowledge and hope that one day they will do the same

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 7:07 am //

          We did not need this new rule for the scenario you paint. The current rule is the scenario you paint. Now, openly homosexual children who I think are too young and immature to know will be telling most everyone they are homosexual. It is part of who they are. Being “out” is all about being gay. You are incredibly naive if you think a homosexual child will keep it i himself when BSA just said publicly it is cool t be gay and out in Scouting as long as you do not engage openly in sexual behavior.

          Me invading their privacy is absolutely laughable. I try to avoid the homosexual lifestyle every day. Open homosexuality is repulsive to me. You are being naive is you think any homosexual Scout will now not share that information with his Troop members. Why would he not. AS a poster said a while back. Its as natural s a boy talking about his girlfriend. I’m sorry, a lot of parents don’t want young children being taught boy-boy sexual attraction is cool. They have that right without being called names. They will vote with their feet and I am with them. I too believe their children will be better adults without that in their lives.

        • Trenton Spears // May 24, 2013 at 12:59 pm //

          David a food for thought I believe that homosexuals scouts will have to declare their choice on the Scouting application how else will the council keep accurate records and follow the trend in its membership and adjust to its recruiting goals. In my many years of Scout Leadership I have ask my scouts to not make any jokes about homosexuals boys will be boys and I will continue to stop this kind of behavior. I would like to know if I have a homosexual scout in my troop so that as a Scoutmaster you can mentor your scouts effectively. Trenton Spears Scoutmaster

        • Trenton,
          Why would a council need o track a trend in gays, that s just an I nation of privacy. How would a CO adjust its advertising and recruiting. I could see there rusting drive going something like this

          Hi and welcome to South of the River Council District. We believe in an inclusive Scouting policy but Troop 1400 you closest troop has all its gay positions filled, but join Troop 1399 they have 5 gay positions open, but you will have to drive 40 miles to join them.

          Whether a youth member is a heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or trisexual who cares, they are all here for the same reason adventure, friendship, expanding their knowledge in a fun non school way.

          I know I and the rest of my leaders don’t care we only care that each youth member is treated with respect, and dignity. No matter who you are, everyone has something to offer scouting, and everyone adult and youth can learn from scouting.

          Trenton I am sure that if we and our troops were to ever meet, we would all sit around the campfire tell campfire stories sing campfire songs and drink campfire hot chocolate, and the only thing that would be different is the following
          1. The uniform
          2. Our troop would come with girls

        • Trenton Spears // May 24, 2013 at 5:58 pm //

          David the campfire sounds good to me you can share my campfire anyday. I have enjoyed many campouts and campfires with other troops over 28 years and what a great time it was and still is. Sex was never a subject and the focus was just laughing and telling great stories and making Smores. I personally believe that all youth should have that experiance and the BSA has been the best at teaching how to have fun along with learning values. We have a saying in our Council if your not having fun in scouting you are not scouting. I will be attending my second 2013 National Jamboree at the Summit in Virginia at 76 of age It will probably my last one I will add it to my many memories of the greatist youth organization in the World the Boy Scouts of America. I believe that the homosexual movement has brought on this delima and the need to change the policy was a payback to large corperations to save funding for scouting. I believe that scouting has taken the wrong step in solving the issue a Scout at 17 can be a scout but let him turn 18 and he is an adult no longer allowed to be a Scout leader. This is bad policy and it should never have been brought up and voted on it will only bring about more change to include LBGT in Scouting there is after Thurdays vote no avoiding it. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • Bobby Trosclair // May 24, 2013 at 8:07 pm //

          I’m waiting for the new sensitivity classes to be added to Adult Leader Training, Woodbadge, the University of Scouting, etc. When LGBT “inclusiveness” is added to part of any organization’s agenda, it quickly morphs into LGBT “acceptance,” and then, “celebration.” Those khaki “equal” signs will soon become part of the official uniform, and will probably become the symbol for the “Lifestyle Diversity Coordinator” position that will be added to the “Leave No Trace Trainer” position when adult homosexuals are included after, oh, say, about one or two years.

  38. For those of you who think that this will make everything OK and everyone will be one big happy scouting family (Oh,and all those Companies who pulled funding will open their checkbooks again. Plus all the local Governments will open their support and facilities to BSA). And that thousands of “Gay” youth will come surging forward to join.
    I have some land under a bridge I would like to sell you.
    This is just the beginning. The Culture Wars will continue.

    For those of you who are celebrating this occasion, try practicing what you preach, TOLERANCE. Drop the accusations of Bigotry, Hate Speech, and the “we don’t need you anyway”, and all the other insults. Remember a scout is Courteous and Kind and Brave enough to take the high ground. .

    I really miss the scouting of my youth when this stuff was not talked about. It never was an issue. This topic has divided the movement, hopefully it can recover.
    Only time will tell..

    • The “movement” is over and Baden-Powell lost. There is no recovery from an abandonment of fundamental values.

    • Ron, I agree that this “stuff” shouldn’t be talked about and should be an issue. That is why I applaud the passage of the resolution. A scout’s sexual orientation is no longer an issue, just like the color of his skin or the manner of his worship. We can show our scouts that we judge people on their conduct and character.

      • Sexual orientation and racism are in no way the same. It is an insult to those who fought for their freedom to group their cause with that of homosexuals. Race is not a choice!

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 9:55 pm //

          Amen Brother!

        • Sexual orientation is also not a choice, unless you choose not to believe in science. Keep in mind, as someone earlier pointed out, even the Catholic Church eventually conceded that the earth was round.

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 10:24 pm //

          Ridiculous argument. There is no conclusive evidence that homosexuality is not a choice. Homosexual advocates claim markers and pools of genes and biological soup but it’s obviously not normal in nature because it does not lead to pro-creation but only sexual satiation which is immoral. Love for the same gender is misplaced emotion to accomplish a sexual purpose. How many celibate homosexual couples d you know? If love is pure, that would be the case.

        • I can’t say I know of any celibate couples, homosexual or heterosexual. That would be a sad thing. As far as monogamous committed homosexual couples, quite a few. And there are many examples of homosexuality in the animal world. A species can propagate just fine with a minority of homosexual members. Amazing how God made the world!

        • Bobby Trosclair // May 24, 2013 at 8:14 pm //

          You sure about that, Brian? As in the research the New York Times cited, which found that about 50% of homosexual marriages are non-monogamous, with the consent of the partners: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html?_r=0

    • I’m looking for those values in your statement here. I read ignorance and head-in-the-sand. It was better when we didn’t wear seat belts or bike helmets either,

    • David Engh // May 23, 2013 at 8:09 pm // Reply

      Ron, the issue I have with people preaching “tolerance” back at the supporters of this resolution is that there is none given in return. In my discussions with those folks, it has been “their way or the highway”.

      I personally don’t have a problem if a CO really feels strongly about the issue; it can be part of the onboarding process to let prospective Scouts and parents know that the CO is or is not friendly to gays. (I thought the local option would have been a less-divisive choice than the resolution, but who am I anyway)

      I’ll be happy to take the rejects from those organizations in my (well, my grandson’s) Troop. I’ve had many more problems with ‘straights’ (anger issues, racist comments, liquor on outings, unwillingness to participate) than I have had with, say, the three moms of one of my Eagle Scouts.

  39. SM/CM-b'more // May 23, 2013 at 6:51 pm // Reply

    Though I am disappointed that the resolution passed because homosexuality is wrong and shouldn’t be validated, the passing of this resolution confirms several important points:
    1. There is a difference between homosexual behavior and homosexual attraction. (the same way that there’s a difference between wanting something and stealing it)
    2. Scouting age youth shouldn’t be sexually active.
    3. A statement of sexual preference by Scouting age youth doesn’t carry much weight because they are still developing.

  40. Everyone who voted for the institutional suicide of this once great organization should be deeply ashamed. I will be informing our local council that our troop will no longer participate in Friends of Scoutng, summer camp etc.

    • David Engh // May 23, 2013 at 7:55 pm // Reply

      Why are you going to deny your Scouts the opportunity to participate because *some* of the people you and they encounter *might* be different in one aspect of their lives?

      • Agreed … so much for a “boy lead troop” …

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 10:12 pm //

          “Boy-led Troop” does not mean “Lord of the Flies.” Adult mentoring from mature adults has always been a part of Scouting.

        • David Engh // May 24, 2013 at 11:25 am //

          Fred, I agree that adult mentoring is an important part of the Scouting program. The adults our Scouts see and learn from can teach tolerance and acceptance of people who are ‘different’, or they can teach … something else.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 12:59 pm //

          I have no idea what David just said, alluded to, hinted at or had a brain fart about. Please help.

        • David Engh // May 24, 2013 at 3:04 pm //

          The adults our Scouts see and learn from can teach tolerance and acceptance of people who are ‘different’, or they can teach them to be suspicious, intolerant, and unaccepting of people who do not look, talk, walk, eat, believe, pray, or otherwise act exactly as they do.

          Clear enough?

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 8:59 pm //

          or they can teach them that homosexuality is immoral and self-destructive behavior. I like that. Under the new policy though, I would be silenced. You like that.

        • Dave Engh // May 24, 2013 at 10:12 pm //

          You wouldn’t be silenced. You’d just have to live with people you disagree with.

          If you stick around, I think eventually you’ll find they’re just people trying to make their way in the world.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 10:32 pm //

          We will see. I have no confidence BSA will treat Christians any differently than every other organization that capitulated to Homosexual activists.

          We all just try to get through the day but for me, I do it while maintaining a drt of ethical and moral standards based on biblical principle. That means that I am in direct opposition to a permissive culture that accepts active homosexuality as normal behavior and normal in any sense of the word.

        • Dave Engh // May 24, 2013 at 10:54 pm //

          Well, I guess where we part ways is that I don’t believe it’s my charge to be judge and jury about other peoples’ lives; that’d be God’s place. They’ll have to answer for theirs and I for mine, and I’d rather err on the side of being kind “to the least of these” when I’m called to answer.

          Peace to you and yours.

    • Another example of “Baby with the Bathwater”. How would it feel if the 61% didn’t participate in FOS or Summer Camp because of the policy of discrimination? Some did that, and it only hurt scouting. Would you poke holes in the bottom of your boat because you don’t like the other passengers? Why are we leaders? Why do we care? The Boys, of course! And ALL boys deserve the opportunity to learn from the great scouting program!

      • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 8:35 pm // Reply

        I don’t give to the Fund our Salaries campaign…..

        I pay for boys who cannot afford camp to go……I don’t need contribute to a $200k SE salary……My DE does nothing for me but collect my apps and fees after school night.

      • well then we may as well let the girls go camping with the boys also … what would be the difference???

        • Karen Zeller // May 23, 2013 at 11:24 pm //

          Well, we do let the girls go camping with the boys, in Venturing. And we use Youth Protection policies to make sure that everyone’s privacy, safety, and propriety are protected. It works well.

        • Vanessa,
          Have a look at the policies of other western countries, UK, CANADA, AUSTRALIA. They have a co-ed scouting policy, and it’s really simple. Male/Female toilets and showers, males and females sleep in seperate tents and we always make sure there are at least 1 male and 1 female leader on camp.

          It is amazing to watch the boys learning from the girls and visa versa thy all learn something. One day you should try it. Just use Common sense

        • Bob Basement // May 24, 2013 at 8:48 am //

          We do it is called venturing

        • Concerned About Scouting // May 24, 2013 at 1:34 pm //

          And Karen, the Youth Protection policy for Venturing is that young and women have separate facilities for sleeping, restrooms, bathing, etc. The training even includes discussion about the budding sexuality of this age as being part of the reason. That doesn’t really work in this case.
          How do you apply that to just young men? WOuld you suggest that you separate hetero- and homosexual Scouts? That’s pretty silly. So what do you suggest?

        • Vanessa // May 24, 2013 at 10:24 pm //

          well if my whole family is at camp with my boy scout, im not sure weather I would feel more comfortable with a non straight boy to be in the boys restroom at the same time as my son, or in the girls restroom with my daughter.. Id have to say none. so are girls allowed to join boy scouts too or are they limited to girl scouts?

    • Bob Basement // May 26, 2013 at 12:38 pm // Reply

      But yet you are still a member of the BSA

  41. To those who oppose this change, please stay. You will find that nothing changes. The sun will come up tomorrow. Gay youth have been earning their Eagle rank under the current policy. I know one. He broke no rules. It’s just that they don’t have to hide. Will there be regrettable incidents? There are now (many of you were eager to tell your stories.) As you showed, they happen today, and would still have happened tomorrow even if there were no change in the policy.

    If you do leave, realize that you will be smoothing the way for future change to admit LGBT leaders. I personally support that change, and I hope we see it soon. But I hope that you will still be here with us to see that it really doesn’t change anything.

    • Very well said, Kevin.

    • Bravo Kevin.

    • John Eric Masters // May 23, 2013 at 7:29 pm // Reply

      Don’t worry, I’m getting out of your way so you can be one of those LGBT Leaders.

      • Wow. Did you just call him “gay”?

        • It’s okay. He doesn’t know me, and has no clue either way. I would assume that he either feels that you can only support LGBT causes if you are LGBT, or that he’s insulting me in some way by calling me LGBT.

    • Concerned About Youth. // May 23, 2013 at 8:45 pm // Reply

      Kevin,
      I would respectfully disagree with you. This is a major change and endangers Youth Protection. This should not have been passed without some effort being put to how it would be implemented pertaining to youth protection. As it is, we’ve thrown heterosexual young men under the bus. Of course, Kevin, to you this may seem like acceptable losses (since there are incidents now, a few more won’t make a difference). Is that what I read?

      • What I said (or intended to say) is that this will not change whether “bad things” happen by either causing more or less. Some folks have posted their own bad experiences here. Those all happened under a the old policy.

        The BSA’s experts concluded that this does not endanger Youth Protection.

        • Concerned About Youth. // May 24, 2013 at 1:17 am //

          Open acceptance means that there is less of a negative influence that discourages acting out. Maybe that will have no impact – but the likelihood is that it will. If nothing else, it will generate more opportunity.

          “The BSA’s experts concluded that this does not endanger Youth Protection.” OK – no danger then. All is good.
          If you’ll note, BSA’s comments about Youth Protection all center around adult leaders. They are conspicuously silent on the issue of youth on youth issues.

        • Gary Wilson // May 24, 2013 at 4:18 am //

          “Concerned bout Youth” incorrectly said “If you’ll note, BSA’s comments about Youth Protection all center around adult leaders. They are conspicuously silent on the issue of youth on youth issues.”

          As a commissioner, I strongly urge him to retake Youth Protection Plan Training ASAP , as he obviously wasn’t paying attention the last time he took it, which should have been in the past two years. Youth Protection Plan Training most emphatically discusses the methods of preventing youth on youth issues.

        • Concerned About Scouting // May 24, 2013 at 2:13 pm //

          Gary,
          Maybe you misunderstood my comment. I’m not talking about all BSA communication related to YP, but about the policy change. As a commissioiner also, I’m well aware of, and fully trained in Youth Protection. I have been teaching the material since it’s inception. The Venturing Youth Protection is very clear about segregation of genders, as well as youth and adults. The idea is that creating barriers mitigates the potential for problems. This policy change removes any possibility of barriers, and now relies solely on the individual to behave – in complete oppositioin to the policies on gender and age that currently exist.

    • Trenton Spears // May 24, 2013 at 4:17 pm // Reply

      Kevin are you thinking that LGBT will be banned from Scouting after the change in scouting policy allowing youth homosexuals to legally join the BSA. It is on its way and there is no way to stop it. If any smoothing was done for the future it was the 1400 delegates that voted against the will of 60% of the BSA membership that did not want the ban lifted. The door is open and more change is on its way. Homosexuality has taken over our schools and now they have to teach our children a chosen lifestyle on others it will soon be an issue with the BSA and it will be a part of the Youth Protection criteria in training. The schools could not keep the education on homosexuality out of its curriculum and neither will the BSA. Kevin if you can’t stand on your principles what use are your principles. You cannot expect people to support an organization that no longer supports them and their values. This has been a divisive issue and the new proposal will only increase the path of division more. Sincerely,
      Trenton Spears

      • People keep repeating that “60%” of the members responding to the survey didn’t want it repealed. But the survey showed that the majority of respondents didn’t feel it was right to kick out gay youth going for Eagle who had already spent 10 or 11 years in scouts.

  42. I know of a Scout in our troop who is gay and am happy that he won’t have to hide it any longer. Scouting is a great tradition that I’m a part of as a scout and leader. It is time to accept and understand that life has changed. Just because a child or leader has an alternative sexual orientation does not devalue him as an individual. If Scouting’s values and beliefs are of importance and drive correct behavior – how is it less important for a gay Scout?

    I applaud the move by the BSA to allow gay Scouts. Gay leaders are the next step.

    • Really? Then women and girls should have the same rights as non straight boys and men, sleeping and bathing in the same as the straight right????

  43. caryn green // May 23, 2013 at 7:17 pm // Reply

    Well you have really done it as this family greens we r FINISHED WITH BOY SCOUT i will get rid of all boy scout stuff and will degrade u and u DID NOT FOLLOW THE SCOUT OATH OR LAW YOUR PROMISE IS WORTHLESS AND WE ARÉ FINISHED

    • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 8:18 pm // Reply

      From the way it looks not much of a loss.

    • hmm maybe you should let your scout make the decision to stay or go , isn’t that what scouting teaches them to stand up and make their own choices. Scouting makes our sons strong, there has always been gay scouts, you just didn’t know it.

    • Dave Engh // May 23, 2013 at 8:54 pm // Reply

      I sure hope you weren’t teaching Communications Merit Badge.

  44. “This policy change is effective Jan. 1, 2014, allowing the Boy Scouts of America the transition time needed to communicate and implement this policy to its approximately 116,000 Scouting units.”

    116,000 units? I predict by the time January 1, 2014 rolls around there will be about 58,000 -60,000 units, with those remaining units not needing any communication from their national leadership.

    • David Engh // May 23, 2013 at 7:26 pm // Reply

      It’d be a real shame if that comes to pass, because that will mean somewhere north of 200,000 adults decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater and deny the youth they know of the opportunity to participate in one of the great youth programs in the world. The *program* doesn’t change because *who’s allowed to participate* does.

      • It’ll also be a shame as more churches are starting to show acceptance also …

      • scouter-for-life // May 23, 2013 at 10:32 pm // Reply

        David,
        Understand that most of the issues will be with the charter organizations. We already have 3 organizations state they will no longer sponser Scouting if this passes.

    • John Eric Masters // May 23, 2013 at 7:27 pm // Reply

      Nothing to implement with our Unit. Our Charter Organization had already ruled that they will drop the Charter on Jan 1st if the policy passed.

      • Kelly Horton // May 23, 2013 at 7:38 pm // Reply

        Why don’t you see if your CO will start a Royal Ranger Outpost. They are all ready to accept an influx of scouters.

        • Karen Zeller // May 23, 2013 at 8:28 pm //

          Kelly, for those who are not pentecostal in doctrine, Royal Rangers might not be an acceptable alternative. Parents should be aware that the Sixteen Fundamental Truths are embedded in the advancement program of the Royal Rangers, and non-pentecostals may have issues with at least #7 and #8.

        • Kelly Horton // May 24, 2013 at 12:06 am //

          Karen,

          Your point is understood. I guess there is a choice to be be made in beliefs and doctrines. I wish we could talk outside this forum about it though. There have been more and more non-pentecostals forming Outposts the past few years. BSA has pluses and minuses and RR does as well.

    • Seriously? I anticipate a growth in scouting.

      • You know what they say about opinions. The guide they gave to voters states that all the Scouting regions recommended leaving things as they are – except the Northeast region, which is out of synch with the rest of the country except the Left Coast anyway. My region estimates that nearly 25% of Scouts and units will leave Scouting because of this decision. As the COR of a large Scout unit with over 40 years in Scouting, I can attest that our CO will not be renewing its charter come next February. “Timeless values” should never be placed to a popular vote.

        • The “Timeless value” of not allowing gays to become scouts, was not a policy of the BSA when your unit was chartered 40 years ago. I think they had a “popular vote” to put in that restriction in the 90′s.

        • Bobby Trosclair // May 24, 2013 at 8:20 pm //

          Brian, sodomy laws made homosexuality effectively a felony in almost every state in the Union until the 1970s, so there was no reason to have a policy against it in place. There was no Golden Age of Homosexual Acceptance in the BSA.

      • BSA’s research has already concluded that membership losses would be 10x more than any potential gains.

      • scouter-for-life // May 23, 2013 at 10:33 pm // Reply

        Why? Wishful thinking?

      • Are you kidding?

    • Is there a unit in this country today that doesn’t know what the vote is. The Pony Express is long dead.

    • I suspect that the return of COs that dropped their units because of the gay ban will more than offset those that drop out now that gay youth are no longer banned.

      • Nope. The religions and Christian denominations that expressly opposed BSA’s policy are very small, except for the UMC, and they never stopped chartering units. Schools, military bases, and other gov’t institutions still can’t charter units because they were forced to stop by an ACLU lawsuit over the religious element of Scouting, not the ban on gays.

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 10:30 pm //

          More BS, Catholics have not drank the Koolaid yet. Mormon’s change their bible as they see fit to suit the culture, I am not surprised.

        • Wow. I can’t believe what Fred Cooper just said about a religion different than his own. Apparently Fred has never heard of the 12th point of the scout law. Nor what Jesus taught in John 8

          It’s very sad to see adults in scouting behave with such intolerance. Baden-Powell would be very sad.

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 11:18 pm //

          What you said makes me sad ;(

      • Man you are smokin’ sumpin’ and it aint legal.

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 11:23 pm //

          I can name two Units in my Council of 59 Units today that will not be re-chartering. I think your bong pipe might be running low if you think no Units will leave by January 1, 2014..

    • Concerned About Youth. // May 24, 2013 at 1:09 am // Reply

      “This policy change is effective Jan. 1, 2014, allowing the Boy Scouts of America the transition time needed to communicate and implement this policy to its approximately 116,000 Scouting units.” – I expect by this weekend there won’t be a unit who is not informed. I question the 1Jan date. If you’re making the change, why not now? They are saying a gay Scout can’t get his Eagle today, yet can after Jan 1.

  45. John Eric Masters // May 23, 2013 at 7:24 pm // Reply

    So what happened to listening to the “Voice of the Scout”? AP news reported that 61 percent of the Scouters that responded rejected any policy accepting gays, and yet 61 percent of our representatives voted to accept gays?!?! What is this world coming to? It’s going to Hell in a handbasket and you can’t even get a decent handbasket.

    • It is my understanding that the majority of scouts favored the change. So it was the “Voice of the Scout”, just not the voice of the scouters. Something to be said for a “boy led organization” I had no intention of leaving if the vote went the other way, and I hope all of the dedicated scouters who’s convictions tell them this was not the best for scouting will continue their service to the boys of our nation. Scouting needs all the volunteers it can get, and I hope all will stay and support the organization. The last thing we need is supporters of gay rights to become hypocrites and say we don’t need leaders who disagree with us. Lets be inclusive, open, and respectful of all regardless of their position on this contentious issue.

    • There are all kinds of ways to look at this, John – first, the supermajority didn’t respond to the VOS which, to me, means they didn’t have strong feelings one way or the other. Second, as was mentioned by Brian, most Scouts opposed the current membership policy. Finally, when VOS came out, the focus was on a ‘local option’ which was not the resolution that ended up being presented. The information that was extrapolated from the results regarding support for inclusion for homosexual youth (ie: the questions dealing with denying a boy his Eagle rank only due to his stated sexual orientation) was much higher than the overall support for policy change (local option).

  46. The impact of this decision happens quickly! As Scoutmaster of a Troop of 53 boys I have just been notified that our CO (which has sponsored this Troop for 57 years will not recharter us in 2014). I had read that some faith based chartering organizations may react unfavorably to the vote so I had approached other civic groups in the community as a potential sponsor, in such event. Thus far, I have been advised that this is a political “hot potato” and the answer has been a polite but firm, “thanks but no thanks”. We are the only Troop in the community and unless another sponsor can be found it appears we will be forced to furl our flag. My point is this – the impact goes further than making a personal decision as a leader or a youth as to whether you will remain in scouting or not because of the vote. Some, like my troop may have no choice but to say goodbye, whether we want to or not … now that is indeed a shame!

    • Dramatics not needed. If there is true support for a unit in your community, then you will be chartered. In fact, several years ago our school system opted to not renew the charter of our Cub Scout unit because of Scouting’s policy of discrimination. We formed the “Parents of Pack 10″ and chartered the Pack. Not one scout lost.

      • Rather smug reply there Jeff! We also looked at your suggestion by contacting our local Council. I suppose this may differ between the Councils, but we were advised that while this was allowed several years ago it was not being promoted at this time and we would need a local church or civic organization rather than a “parents group” as a sponsor.

        • It was smug, I suppose. And I’m not surprised really. But I can’t imagine that there isn’t SOME organization that would be thrilled to charter a unit. I don’t know where you live, but it seems like it would have to be pretty narrow-thinking to let something like this stop a great program. I’m really trying to imagine.

        • The United Methodist Church has an Anti-Discrimination Policy. We are chartered by one, and we were informed that they would not renew our charter until the results of this vote. As I understand it, they will now renew. Or try Unity or Unitarian Universalist. United Church of Christ. These all value non-discrimination. And there are more.

        • That’s why people don’t go to church anymore, Jeff: When a “church” values popularity over moral values, there’s no point in going. The whole point of a church is to teach right and wrong in a moral context; i.e., to discriminate between good and not good. A church that preaches “non-discrimination” in a moral context like this is just a Sunday morning social club.

        • Bob,

          I don’t go to church to learn right from wrong. I go to get closer to God. I find that when I am in a place of judging others as wrong, then I am moving away from God. For instance, I don’t find your opinions wrong. You are perfectly free to have them. I strongly disagree with you – as you apparently disagree with me. But I don’t need to call you wrong.

          God bless you.

      • Schools are not an option whether they want to be or not. From 1999-2004 the ACLU sued Chicago Public Schools, Housing and Urban Dev., and the military for sponsoring BSA units due to the requirement that a scout swear an oath to do their “duty to God.” They all settled, and BSA simply stopped chartering units to gov’t institutions. Your unit would have been moving regardless of its own opinion on BSA policy because BSA would not have rechartered it to a school after 2004.
        Most of those units went to churches, some went to “friends of XXX” or “parents of XXX” groups, and some went to civic clubs like VFW. However, as Mark pointed out, BSA is moving away from those friends/parents of XXX groups.

    • Kelly Horton // May 23, 2013 at 7:38 pm // Reply

      Why don’t you see if your CO will start a Royal Ranger Outpost. They are all ready to accept an influx of scouters.

      • Thank you for the suggestion Kelly. I am sure we will examine other avenues. At the moment we are taken aback be the loss of such a long time association that appears to have perished by actions that the Troop or its leaders have no control. No offense to the Royal Rangers, they are a fine organization, but our hearts remain with the BSA … although it is becoming quite a challenge!

        • Kelly Horton // May 23, 2013 at 8:18 pm //

          Mark,
          Just letting people know there are other venues out there. I am finding it hard to leave as well. I have worked with both groups and like them both for different reasons. I have heard through the grapevine that there are a number of scouters starting their own scouting group soon outside of the BSA.

    • And the Charter Orginazation owns all funds and equipment and can keep that equipment and funds should they so desire.
      I am against the propaganda of homosexaulity. Good luck.

    • 57 years ago BSA did not ban gay boys from membership, yet your CO did not have a problem with BSA. I suspect if BSA never made the change in the 90′s, we would not have tis problem now. Divisiveness breeds divisiveness, a good lesson to remember. I would hope there is an organization that will look beyond this issue to the true core values of scouting. If not, perhaps the parents of your troop who have the most skin in the game may want to think about forming an organization to charter the troop.

      • The CO *is* looking at the core value of scouting, unlike the BSA at large. That’s why they’re not going to recharter the troop, no doubt. The troop, if it follows the new BSA down the rainbow path, will no longer be faithful to core scouting principles and shouldn’t be rechartered.

    • Per this page on the official BSA website there are over 3000 “Groups of Citizens” supporting over 100k Scouts. Mark, you may want to have the discussion with someone else in the Council about the viability of this option. I’ve been researching options too based on the expectation that our CO will also not recharter. Keep trying and ask the Scouts for their ideas too. Groups are more likely to listen to the kids.

    • Thus the reason BSA National should have listened to its members, not the radical homosexuals.

      • David Engh // May 24, 2013 at 11:36 am // Reply

        They should have left well enough alone in the ’80s/’90s instead of listening to the radical conservatives spurred on by the so-called “Moral Majority”. The BSA had lived with no specific statement about sexuality until then and no one was worried about the sky falling.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 1:03 pm //

          Are you kidding me?! Conservatives caused this mess?! This ain’t nuthin’ but homosexuals “gettin’ down with the program.” If homosexuals activists had left BSA alone and not forced the organization to accept sexually confused children raised by progressive or absentee adults, we would not be here today., .

        • David Engh // May 24, 2013 at 3:14 pm //

          I think it’s hard to deny that conservative elements forced their interpretation of “moral” into an explicit statement about homosexuality by the BSA in the late ’80s/early ’90s where before there had not been one.

          About the same proportion of gay Scouts & leaders have been around for a long time, they’ve just stayed hidden because of social pressures. You’re kidding yourself if you think they just showed up now to cause trouble.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 9:04 pm //

          Although Id not believe your statement that homosexual Adults and Scouts have always infiltrated the organization, it always worked for me. I have never seen or heard of a homosexual Scout in Scouting, OA or Jamboree, If they can that well, I like that policy. It certainly kept sexuality out of Scouting and must have worked for the homosexuals, but obviously it did not, because homosexuals want to be in my face and indoctrinate young children to accept deviant behavior as normal. Sorry, not in this house.

        • Has anyone ever told you you are crazy? Because you are. There is no homosexual agenda that indoctrinates anyone in anyway of life. If you think so, you are a fool. I apologize for being so unscoutlike, but you’ve been spewing nonsense upon nonsense for post after post. You are sound like some 78 year old bigot that believes whatever BS comes out of Fox News or Rush Limbaugh’s mouth. If you stuck around scouting, you would see that nothing has changed. There are no flaming armies of homosexuals marching around with pink neckerchiefs recruiting people to a gay lifestyle. What we’ll have are people lashing monkey bridges, hiking into the backwoods and gathering around campfires and telling stories under the stars. Same as it ever was.

        • BINGO – we have a winner here

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 11:03 pm //

          Somehow I missed this diatribe until Tani high-fived ole db:

          “Has anyone ever told you you are crazy? Because you are. There is no homosexual agenda that indoctrinates anyone in anyway of life. If you think so, you are a fool.”

          db loves that name-calling. I think public school curriculum like “gender bender day” day that was in the news today spikes your little hissy-fit.

          “I apologize for being so unscoutlike, but you’ve been spewing nonsense upon nonsense for post after post.”

          I don’t expect you to be Scoutlike. I’ve seen your posts.

          “You are sound like some 78 year old bigot that believes whatever BS comes out of Fox News or Rush Limbaugh’s mouth. If you stuck around scouting, you would see that nothing has changed. There are no flaming armies of homosexuals marching around with pink neckerchiefs recruiting people to a gay lifestyle.”

          I have no idea what you’re talking about and neither do you since I have not referenced any of the sources you mentioned and you are spouting the expected name-calling and party line of your ilk. You sound like a spoiled 12 year old.

          “What we’ll have are people lashing monkey bridges, hiking into the backwoods and gathering around campfires and telling stories under the stars. Same as it ever was.”

          You keep singing Kumbaya around the Campfire with homosexual Scouts if that is what turns you on. Wait, maybe your parents were from the late 60′s and your upbringing involved counter-culture nonsense. That would explain a lot.

  47. Im really concerned about this vote because as a leader, a parent, & most importantly a Christian we are based upon serving God & our country! Im afraid that this is only going to be the beginning of the changes because next it will be that we are forcing religion on someone & then we won’t be aloud to mention God at all!

    • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 8:56 pm // Reply

      Whose god???

      Lucky for us the BSA welcomes them all.

      • The God in Heaven! yes i welcome all to churchthis is what’s wrong with our country but this is about young boys now! Homosexuality is a sin & in God’s eyes its the same as murder! i don’t hate anyone who says they are gay but i hate the sin in their life & i pray that they change their ways before its too late! This is what’s wrong with our country now is that not many are following the Ten Commandments anymore or they are too afraid to stand up against what’s wrong! God bless! Jesus loves you!!!!

        • So yourgod says it’s just as big a sin for me to kiss a guy as to kill him? Doesn’t sound like the same God I know and love.

        • Yes a sin is a sin no matter how big or small!

        • And the same language in Leviticus disallowing one to “lie with a man as one would with a woman” also disallows pork and blending of fabrics. Actually, the prohibition against unclean foods is a lot stronger.

          More important than all of these is a prohibition against lighting fires on Saturday. If we are going to follow the teachings of Leviticus, I suggest that we do not discriminate and follow all 613 commandments.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 7:12 am //

          Stick with the New Testament and spike the straw man argument made here. It is very cleat in the New Testament which Jesus brought to us that homosexuality is a sin and abomination to Mankind.

          You’re obviously not a Christian so I don’t know why you’re attacking a Christian for their beliefs.

        • Fred, you can limit yourself to the New Testament, but many do not view it as the only acceptable text.

          Not all Christians have discarded the Old Testament (as it appears that you have), nor is that the only other religious text. We in the BSA respect the rights of others to follow the teachings of their faith, whether found in the New Testament, the Old Testament, the Koran, or somewhere else.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 8:27 am //

          He’s following the teaching of his faith with a reasonable position. Why are you attacking him? and me for that matter.

          Its his truth and mine. You can have yours.

        • Fred, sadly your position seems at odds with your statement. I certainly respect your right to have the truths of your faith. What I am attacking is your insistence that if I want to be part of the BSA, I have to follow them.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 10:35 am //

          No, you and I have to follow BSA rules which were just changed to allow openly homosexual children in Scouting. The poster and I both diagree with the revised policy and see it as an abomination. We’re not asking you to do anything. Where do you see that requirement from either one one us. Its a patently false premise on your part. Be honest when you post. We have our opinions and will continue to speak them. Are you saying that since BSa changed the Policy we should not speak in such a manner anymore like the deluge of pro-homosexual posters prior to the vote on this blog?

          Get real, Man! Its a blog. BSA sets policy, not you or I.

        • Fred, I am glad you recognize that the BSA, acting institutionally, sets policy. I respect that you disagree with this policy change. I don’t think you are immoral. Do you respect that I disagreed with the prior policy and that I am not immoral either?

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 1:16 pm //

          I do not know you and can make no moral observations of you. Supporting a policy of accepting homosexual children does not make you immoral.

          If a person is a practicing homosexual, bi-sexual person or an adulterer, that person is immoral. If a person lacks ethics or is a liar, that person is immoral. You have not indicated you are any of those. I would not assume without proof. However, if a person says they take pleasure in homosexual thoughts, then yes, I would say that person cannot be morally straight. That is why I do not support the revised policy.

        • Now I see where you went off the track. What you mean by “morally straight” is not the meaning with which the BSA uses that term (and has since 1913, more or less).

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 9:22 pm //

          Why don’t you provide your 1913 definition of “morally straight” so we can get a good look at it. I’ve seen what you folks put out there before but I would like to see it from you.

        • I don’t have to go back that far to make the point: The Boy Scout Handbook (11th ed.) explains “morally straight” as “To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.”

      • Bob Basement // May 24, 2013 at 4:08 pm // Reply

        Poor April…..She is too stupid to know that the BSA is open to more than just Christians……

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 9:12 pm //

          Poor Bob, his last name is the part of his brain where him moral compass resides.

        • Fred, you are a HYPOCRITE, belittling people for their beliefs shows how truly narrow minded you are. FREEDOM OF SPEECH. If my children were in your troop I would remove them just because of you MORALLY STRAIGHT means you live the good way in life and treat people fairly which CLEARLY YOU DO NOT. You leaving scouting will be no great loss. I am sure as a young man you were not ALWAYS MORALLY STRAIGHT, I am sure you did as many young teenage boys did with magazines etc. Just because a child feels they are gay does not mean they have no morals, they are just different then yours. Not everyone is perfect, not even you, the only real judge in my life is god, and he believes equality for all his children.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 9:42 pm //

          Okay Tani , where is the hypocrisy? More name calling but you folks have made my skin thick just to get past the name-calling.

          If your children are homosexual, they would not be the Troop because current policy does not allow it. So you would find a Scouting Unit that defies Scout Policy? That’s rich and illuminating.

          As a young man, I was immature and made mistakes and wished I had quality adult leaders who would help me to grow by teaching character and moral principles, not teaching me to be a sexual deviant or encouraging me to express that such behavior is normal. Do your sons play games with girls and boys in magazines. I did not, real girls were far more interesting. Sounds like there’s a fantasy issue for you somewhere.

          I am far from perfect. I am a sInner saved by Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is a big “G” God in my life. I surpasses anything BSA can offer and that is why leaving is because BSA no longer follows biblical principle.

          Who is your little “g” god. I have told you mine, I think it is a fair question. I will not comment on it. It is your personal faith but it might help me to understand your rage at a differing opinion. CAPS means screaming in my face.

        • Fred if my children are gay then so be it, I have more issues in scouting from straight boys being to grabby with others and do express concerns to my fellow leaders, and a IMMEDIATE RESOLUTION happens. that is what leaders do is take care of all the boys in scouts in a fair manner. I have no issues with my sexuality, I am sexually straight, and a woman that doesn’t mean I was not a good leader from tigers through weeblos, But if you can make bad decisions as a young adult and correct or learn from them, then why are you so upset if someone makes a decision that you did not. Just because a boy is gay does not mean they will try to recruit homosexuality within the boy scouts.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 10:00 pm //

          I never said they were recruiting other boys. I do believe homosexual boys are a bad moral example to be in a Troop of young boys. BSA forcing through a decision to a captured audience will not change my position. Unlike many other Scouters who will force down this decision for the “good of Scouting” even though they disagree with it, I am losing respect for them. Scouting is not that important to me.

  48. I do not personally agree with the change but will support it. I don’t not think much will change. I know several gay people and they would not even think about being part of scouting. The outdoors activities are not anything they like or want some thing to do with.

    • Bill Sharp // May 24, 2013 at 8:52 am // Reply

      I have attended many “Eagle” Ceremonies & have sat on & “Chaired” may BOR’s as well. Will the “Eagle Scout Charge” be ammended to include a statement that they will no longer be expected to continue and serve Scouting as an Adult?

      • To Bill Sharp: there is no official Eagle Scout Oath. That’s just something someone made up to create a more solemn ceremony. You won’t find an Eagle Scout Oath in the handbook. So yes – go ahead and change it to your liking.

        • Gary Wilson // May 24, 2013 at 11:56 am //

          db is correct. The Eagle Scout Charge is just an optional ceremonial add-on for COR’s. The underlying tenets for Scouts of all ranks are the basic Scout Oath and Law.

          BTW, while Eagle is a desirable goal for all Scouts, advancement is just one of the eight methods of Scouting. The primary goal of Scouting is to get kids to become First Class in about one year, so they stay in the program for three years and thus have the Oath and Law inculcated in their behavior as “useful citizens”. We don’t regard the 98% of Scouts who don’t achieve Eagle as failures.

  49. If parents pull there children from this organization for this they must have small minds, Every child that wants to be a scout should be able to join their respective scout group. Scouts are not in scouting to have sex they are in scouting to learn and grow as a person, with new and better skills and awesome adventures. Antone having sex in scouting is removed from the group – so what are you people afraid of ?? That your sons will meet new people with different views then themselves? There are more things to worry about in life then allowing young adults who may or may not know their own life choices to learn to grow as a person and gain skills needed to form a successful life. I had gay friends in grammar school in the 70′s and I am straight, no one ever tried to convert me and some have proven very good friends, my children know people with 2 moms or 2 dads, people are good or bad it has nothing to do with their sexuality. I would much rather my children grow to know there are different views and ways to live then have them be afraid of someone because they are different in some way. The true tragedy is that people try to be intelligent and cannot spell or use the proper words to make their points but still comment and they have such a closed mind to expect people to all be the same without realization that life is about choices, decisions and adjustments, learn to take people for who they are and not their sexual choices.

    • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 9:53 pm // Reply

      Your reply is total BS. I raised my children to respect every person and who they are but to recognize immorality and indulgent behavior such as homosexuality. They have friends of all colors and habits but would never enable homosexual or promiscuous heterosexual behavior in any person of any gender. it seems you would teach your children hat such behavior is right as rain. what a disservice you are to your children.

      • Immoral no – My children are good students and have made it all the way through cub scouts to become boy scouts last month. I am a single mom who has been mom and dad to them for over the past 10 years. I do not do drugs, have multiple boyfriends, or drink. I teach my children to give respect to all and ignore those who do not return it. Teaching my children to accept what they cannot control – really that is a disservice? I think not I think its a service to make them stronger. Any disservice to my children have come from their dad whose chose beer over them. I teach my kids to accept people for who they are not what they are or their views or color of their skin. I believe that will be the best service I as a parent can give them to face life not afraid and willing to accept what is ahead and be strong enough to keep to their own beliefs

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 10:28 pm //

          I certainly see how you came to your conclusions and how you teach your children. i see it every day in the Daycare I oversee and the issues single mom’s deal with. You cannot be a Mom and Dad as hard as you try and that is not a slight. I disagree with you but understand how you came to be where you are. My comment stands.

    • Tani: Your comment is insulting. I am an attorney and a registered leader with the Pack & Troop in our community. I will no longer volunteer and my son can no longer be part of this new organization. Whether you admit it or not, this is a new organization. This new organization will be fraught with danger from rabid homosexual groups looking for a payday from CO’s that do not follow this new directive. Actually you are small minded if you continue your affiliation if it is in an official capacity. The lawyers are comming and the BSA will not be there to cover you when the judgment come down. Be afraid.

      • David Engh // May 24, 2013 at 11:46 am // Reply

        The only lawyers I’m concerned about coming after Scouting, or me as a registered leader, are those that will sue because we’re somehow infringing on their “rights” to a Scout Troop where they can be assured that “teh gayz” are not going to be somehow allowed to indoctrinate their children.

        The same Supreme Court decision that let the BSA, as a private organisation, have a policy that excludes people also protects their right to change to policy to *not* exclude people.

  50. Have you read the USA Today article In Good We Trust? “Good Boy Scouts Don’t Need God,” . It appears that the atheists already have a plan to add another “o” to God’s name, making it read Good. Getting rid of God will probably also be coming up for a vote in the future once their focused activists become involved to make Boy Scouts more of an “all-inclusive” organization. There is a group at Contact@OnMyHonor.Net that is working on a new Scouting group that will actually have moral values.

    • I highly doubt that, Debbie. The Scouts stand for “Timeless Values.”

      • ScoutMommaX3 // May 23, 2013 at 9:57 pm // Reply

        Ronald, it’s hard to tell via computer, but you are being sarcastic right?! Because if BSA actually stood for “timeless values”, none of us would be here having this discussion now would we. We do not live in a society of ‘timeless values’, they are considered to be ‘old fashioned’, ‘outdated’, ‘discriminatory’ and the list goes on.

      • Ronald: Yes and one just got flushed down the drain. Whats stopping the weak sheep at the top of thos once great organization to flushing another one or two down the drain? Nothing I can see.

    • Thanks for the tip, Debbie. I look forward to hearing what they come up with in Kentucky next month. Scouting and core scouting values will survive with or without the moral cowards of the BSA national committee.

  51. ScoutMommaX3 // May 23, 2013 at 8:41 pm // Reply

    Well at least it doesn’t ‘officially’ go into effect until 2014, so my family can tie up our loose ends before we leave. We won’t be rechartered anyhow (thank God!) Grateful we did not support FOS with the pending vote.

    I would offer to any Catholic scouts to seek out (if your parish does not have one) your local Knights of Columbus – Columbian Squires program. It is similar to scouting as it is based on service to others, advancements and FUN! All our boys have enjoyed participating in both programs and look forward to continued participation in the Squires.

    http://www.kofc.org/un/en/squires/index.html

    • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 8:58 pm // Reply

      So would that loose end be finishing an Eagle????

      • ScoutMommaX3 // May 23, 2013 at 9:14 pm // Reply

        Curious (not really) why you would care Bob? Fishing for an argument perhaps? Best of luck with your new policy – God bless!!

        When your mind is perverted you see and interpret everything through that perverted prism. Everything. Even God.
        - DL Foster

        • Bob Basement // May 23, 2013 at 9:32 pm //

          Naw,

          Just entertained by the thought of someone taking the moral high road, yet pausing long enough to earn its most sought after award before they leave.

        • ScoutMommaX3 // May 23, 2013 at 9:49 pm //

          Bob, even if some scouts do that, who cares, they will have earned it. Why do you think they pushed so hard to get the gays forced into BSA rather then start their own scouting program OR join the scouting program that already accepts/wants them? THEY want that prestigious Eagle too, it means something (for now). I will support the boys in our troop that want to do that – if they’ve come this far, let them finish it they deserve it. It’s not the youth’s fault this is happening. I simply meant we (my husband and I) are committee members, and our youth also are holding positions so they can see them through until fall.

    • Since you are planning on hanging around thru ’13, may want to wait to see how nccs weighs in on the issue:
      REACTION TO POLICY CHANGE IN
      MEMBERSHIP STANDARDS FOR THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA
      National Catholic Committee on Scouting
      Thursday, May 23, 2014@ 5:48 PM
      For over 100 years, thousands of children in Catholic parishes, schools and fraternal organizations have benefited from chartering Scouting units. The Catholic Church has maintained a strong relationship with the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) through the National Catholic Committee on Scouting (NCCS) for many years and we hope to maintain that relationship.

      Today, the voting members of the BSA voted to change the membership standards for its youth members. The BSA proposed in its resolution that “no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.” Its membership standards for adult leaders remain unchanged.

      The Catholic Church teaches that people who experience a homosexual inclination or a same sex attraction are to be treated with respect recognizing the dignity of all persons. The Church’s teaching is clear that engaging in sexual activity outside of marriage is immoral. Individuals who are open and avowed homosexuals promoting and engaging in homosexual conduct are not living lives consistent with Catholic teaching.

      Since the change in policy will not take effect until January 1, 2014, the National Catholic Committee on Scouting has adequate time to study its effects. The NCCS will determine how it may impact Catholic chartered Scout units and activities. In doing so, we will work within the teachings of our Catholic Faith and with the various local bishops and their diocesan scouting committees.

      Ed Martin- National Chair
      Father Michael Hanifin-National Chaplain

      • ScoutMommaX3 // May 23, 2013 at 9:17 pm // Reply

        I do not need the church to tell me what I know is right and wrong. We have values and do not compromise them. Thank you though for sharing and thinking that would be a game changer for us. I know that statement will make a difference for some, just not us. God bless!

        • Your own parish would allow a gay guy to participate in church life, I don’t see why you’d leave your troop for BSA doing the same thing.

        • ScoutMommaX3 // May 23, 2013 at 9:40 pm //

          First, the church will not allow actively practicing gays – their job is that of Jesus Christ, to help the sinners repent not condone them or the old ‘if you can’t beat em join em’ theory. They (our CO) already told us if this is how the vote went they would not recharter us. Either way, like I’ve stated – we take our values from scripture not the church. My boys decided that if this resolution was passed they no longer felt comfortable participating in scouts, it is my job as a parent to respect and support their choice on this matter. This decision was not made lightly, we have prayed on this matter since it began. If their hearts have not been changed then I LOVE and SUPPORT the men they are becoming. To hold to their values because they are right and NOT change because the ‘popular’ thing to do is go with the crowd. Be clear, we are not hateful to those who choose this lifestyle, we pray for them, we know God loves the sinner but hates the sin, as do we. It does not mean we need to stand by as BSA throws away timeless traditions. Thank you for posing your comment very politely – I appreciate that. God bless!!

        • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 10:13 pm //

          Amen to that!

        • This timeless tradition you speak of has a time, I think it was 1992(give or take a year or so). When I was a scout in the 60′s, BSA did not pick this as one of the few “moral failings” that was spelled out as incompatible with scouting. Now we are simply going back to the time when we “loved the sinner” if that is how you view homosexuality, but did not exclude them from our organization. Scouting is now no longer in the business of judging sexuality. I’m truly sad to hear that your boys will no longer benefit from all that scouting has to offer. I sincerely doubt that there will be many troops that notice a change after the decision. Scouting is not saying that homosexuality is good, they are just not saying it is bad. Your boys have their values. If your boys stay in scouting will this change their values? If the church says they are OK with gays in scouting, will you leave the church? I know this is a tough decision, and you have prayed for God’s guidance. May His grace guide you.

        • ScoutMommaX3 // May 23, 2013 at 10:58 pm //

          Thank you Brian, you comments are polite and respectful. To be clear, yes I would leave the church if it changed it’s views on many things including (not limited to) homosexuality, because we follow scripture NOT just a church that is run by ‘man’ (who is fallible). Luckily my church does not sway with society’s views of what is ‘acceptable now’ – that is why I along with 1000+ families belong to it. We are not your typical Catholics (not all Catholic churches are created equal) and I am VERY proud to drive an hour each way to belong/participate with our particular congregation!

          As for you statement, “Scouting is not saying that homosexuality is good, they are just not saying it is bad.” Even an Atheist has a distinction between something that is ‘good’ and something that is ‘bad’. So again, I believe Scouting has in fact severed whatever tie they had left to values and morals. “Timeless” by definition states: not affected by time : ageless. Clearly BSA has been affected by time – or at least ‘the times’, they were to afraid to say “Hey, it’s okay to stay true to ourselves past, present and future.”

          As for my scouts and their values, here is their response when I asked them (when this all started) how they would feel if BSA changed: “Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.”- Augustine of Hippo. “We will choose what we know is right, it’s tough making the right decision it’s not always the popular one but it is still the ‘right’ one” (paraphrased)

        • Good luck to you and your boys. I’m well aware that all Catholic Churches are not the same. My parish while much different from yours is also quite large and often misunderstood by other Catholics. Scouting will miss you

        • EagleMom // May 24, 2013 at 11:49 pm //

          @ScoutMommaX3 -
          I encourage you to read the BSA’s information in full. It is not at all clear to me that the new policy allows gay Scouts who are sexually active. It, as I read it, addresses same-sex attraction only. It says:
          > We are unaware of any major religious chartered organization that believes a youth member simply stating he or she is attracted to the same sex, but not engaging in sexual activity, should make him or her unwelcome in their congregation.
          > This proposal reinforces Scouting’s belief that sexual conduct by any Scout, heterosexual or homosexual, is contrary to the virtues of Scouting and is reflective of the beliefs of most of our major religious chartered organizations.
          > While, if this resolution is passed, no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of stating their sexual orientation ALONE, Scouting expects appropriate behavior from all members, which includes sexual conduct, regardless of sexual orientation.
          > Membership in any program of the Boy Scouts of America requires the youth member to subscribe to and abide by the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law…

    • Thanks for the tip, ScoutMomma. We’ve been considering the Catholic Church’s offer of reconciliation with Episcopalians who were abandoned by their “church” much as the BSA has done. This would be one more good reason to do so.

      • ScoutMommaX3 // May 24, 2013 at 6:06 pm // Reply

        Bob, we would love to have you! God bless!!

        • Thanks, ScoutMomma. I am still concerned that the Catholic Church sometimes seems more concerned with pomp, circumstance, and regalia than with God but they are, still, one of the few rocks still standing against the modern maelstrom as more and more moral bastions, like BSA, fail.

      • ScoutMommaX3 // May 30, 2013 at 12:00 am // Reply

        Bob, I just wanted to say if you are seriously considering a conversion get your hands on some Catholic literature on WHY we do what we do. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the best resource by far. However it is large so it scares most people (even most Catholics) from reading it. I personally love it. Regardless there are other resources out there on the ‘why’s’ of the Catholic church and even if you decided not to join you would definitely have more insight to the Catholic faith. God bless you!

  52. Sue Phillips // May 23, 2013 at 9:01 pm // Reply

    It is about time this was done. Boy Scouts is to teach skills and not judge.

    • Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 10:05 pm // Reply

      Boy Scouts is about Character Education and teaching moral principles. That by its definition, requiring testing of skills and learning as does outdoor skills. Don’t hide behind the “judging” whimper and whine.

  53. Sue Phillips // May 23, 2013 at 9:04 pm // Reply

    It’s about time. Skills are important and not judgement.

    • Let’s not forget the life skill of staying “morally straight.”

      • You are aware that the “morally straight” concept is not a reference to orientation.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 7:57 am //

          I ma aware that BSA until just now has said “Homosexuality is incompatible with Scouting” wink wink, nod, nod ;)

          We need to get that pesky “morally straight” out of there. Too judgmental.

        • My understanding is that “morally straight” includes a variety of concepts. Since BSA’s Oath recites, “On my honor- I will do my duty to God and my country…” I am assuming that being morally straight has implications that point back to God’s laws and basis for morality. It may not be your morality…but it is the basis for my family.

  54. The Girl Scouts have accepted gay adults and it is
    NO BIG DEAL. It’s only an issue if you make it an issue!

    • Concerned About Youth. // May 24, 2013 at 12:45 am // Reply

      Have you looked at the membership for Gil Scouts over the age of about 12? GSUSA struggle to keep it’s membership beyond Brownies. They have tried numerous programs – Studio 2B, Journeys, etc to try to keep girls longer. Do a little search on the web and there’s a lot of young women encourage other girls to join Venturing instead as it has better programming. The point is that Girl Scouting is not really dealing with the issue – they pay kind of a lip service while ignoring it.
      FYI, for those who think these concerns are not valid, feel free to look around. There are plenty of people sharing their experiences at Scout Camps – here’s a few: http://www.scoutofthecloset.blogspot.com/.
      Talking about Scouts not experimenting etc at camp is denying what everyone knows. How many of these were not necessarily welcome experiences?

      • This is no NEW phenomenom! I was a Girl Scout until I acheived the Gold Award; the Girl Scouts highest acheivement. Just like boys who leave Scouts as they get older, Girl Scouts have to compete with other organized activities and the increased academic demands of a high school education. My daughter and her peers were in Girl Scouts until middle school. She and her fellow Scoutmates wanted to try other activities that neither Girl Scouts nor Venture Crew offered. Additionally, my daughter went to an elite private high school which required she play a sport. Participation in a high school sport entails the player commit to before and after school practices as well as games. Add on the academic load…no time for anything else!

  55. This should not have been accepted simply because boy scouts is for BOYS not girls or any that act or think as a girl.. This is why their are not girls going camping in the same tents and such as the boys .. There is no discrimination against anyone, not girls or non straight… its just boy scouts is for boys and girl scouts for girls .. how it should be.

  56. Fred Cooper // May 23, 2013 at 10:08 pm // Reply

    Your argument is total BS. Immoral sexual behavior has NOTHING to compare it to black people’s fight for civil rights. ridiculous.

  57. Hold the phone on this one, Kevin! You say that, “70% of Charter Oraganizations are faith based sponsors. Of that number, 25% are Mormon, who approved of the measure. This means, that approximately 40% of units will not be rechartered by their current sponsors” What makes you think that all faith-based COs aside from LDS will drop their units?? The UCC, UUA, Reform Judiasm, Episcopalian, and some Presbyterian churches fully include homosexual members in their faith. UMC is more fractured and will likely be on a church by church basisbut I hope the UMM will come out in support of this change. The statement I saw posted here from the Catholic church seems like they are at least probable to stay. Certainly there will be some faith-based units that will lose their CO, but to state that all less LDS will drop is patently false!

  58. Sad day for America ! How can I encourage my three sons to stand couragously against the tides of our culture when the leadership of BSA (the organization our whole family is involved in) just caved into peer pressure on the basis of revenue. It would have been better to implode with integrity than prosper in the embrasing of immorality. Sin is sin. Deviance is deviance. Aberant is still aberant. Shame on the Boy Scouts of America – you have caused more harm by this one decision… and it will bear fruits for years to come. Better that a millstone were hung around your neck.

    • Trenton Spears // May 24, 2013 at 12:28 pm // Reply

      Kelly Thank you for such a true and profound statement. Homosexuality has never been fully evaluated to its exceptance into society. I have to admit homosexuality has become more excepted in society but excepting its activity will forever be in question by people of faith and moral values. You cannot solve discrimination by discriminating. Lifting the ban on Youth Scouts and not including the adult homosexuals is certainly discrimination and if an adult homosexual goes to Court he will win and in the near future the 1400 BSA delegates will be back to vote again on this issue. Sincerely Trenton Spears

  59. Maxx Kanzler // May 23, 2013 at 11:45 pm // Reply

    I think it is fantastic, unfortunately it did not go far enough. Before you jump to conclusions, no I am NOT gay. I am married 21 years and have 2 kids. I grew up in scouting in the Midwest and NEVER even thought about this issue as a Scout. I’m sure some of the other Scouts in my Troop were gay and in hindsight my ASMs could have been also, but you know what….. As the non-gay members did NOT discuss or practice their sexuality in Scouting, neither did the gay ones. It NEVER came up -EVER.

    My son is now a Life Scout and I am proud of his acceptance to anyone who wishes to participate. It is really a non-issue to the Scouts. Unfortunately the Brad Carter problem seems to be with he parents an other Adult leaders whom can’t get overthrew tat On my way! People are different -no it is NOT a choice.

    To hold so much hate against someone different than yourself and to try to call it “religious beliefs” is a joke. As I recall Jesus accepted EVERYONE! (I myself am not a religious follower)

    For those COs that choose to disband a Troop – good riddance you are not teaching anything positive to the young Scouts and how to exist in the world today. I just hope they don’t become as hateful as the adults who run their programs.

    I will happily stay involved in the program and invite anyone and everyone who would like to be a Scout or Scout Leader to do so.

    Maxx K.

    • You obviously never read or adhered to the “morally straight” part, right? Why did you even join an organization if you didn’t agree with its stated values? If you’re happy with this change, you joined the organization under false pretenses.

  60. I sense a bunch of homophobes in here… and much hate.

    • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 7:15 am // Reply

      I send a homosexual advocate posting this with no courage as demonstrated by the name and much hated spewed from teh shadows for those who do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle.

      • David Engh // May 24, 2013 at 11:50 am // Reply

        Ok, I will post it, also.

        I sense a bunch of homophobes here….and much hate.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 1:09 pm //

          Then you are a brainwashed activist Sir, and I am sorry that you cannot accept opinions which do not reflect your worldview and have to resort to name calling and labeling to have a conversation, but that is what I have come to expect from progressives with no substance to their argument.

        • David Engh // May 24, 2013 at 3:35 pm //

          Fred, I respect your right to your opinion. My experience with people who hold opinions similar to those you’ve expressed here and on the earlier posting about the policy is that they, as a group, think other opinions should be denied expression and/or shouted down. I am not denying you your right to express yourself, I’m just responding with a different opinion.

          It’s similar to what scientists have found out about the Africanized bees.- they hatch earlier and kill the non-Africanized bees to reduce competition. I see, perhaps mistakenly, the same process happening in this debate in Scouting.

          I’m perfectly willing to live in a Scouting unit with people who dislike the homosexual “lifestyle” (a bad term for this since it implies choice but I don’t know a better one), but the people I’m referring to are willing to destroy their units in order to not have to do the same.

          Homophobe is a word that means “a person who fears or hates homosexuals and homosexuality”. There certainly seems to be a lot of fear of homosexuals in the responses I’ve seen here and in several other places, and fear leads to anger and hate.

          I’m not brainwashed – believe me, I prayed long and hard when this question came up before my church. That prayer and consideration led me to where I am now.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 9:09 pm //

          You must admit I am certainly not shouting you down. I am defending my position on a bad policy in Scouting. I don’t hate anyone and “homophobe” as you say connotes hatred of people who choose to engage non-reproductive same-sex sexual activity. You sai I and the other poster hate whuch is what homosexual activists do. Where am I wrong?

        • Dave Engh // May 24, 2013 at 10:17 pm //

          These so-called “homosexual activists” aren’t saying “get out of our house.” They’re saying “we’d like at seat at the table, please.” There’s a difference even if you can’t or won’t see it.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 10:42 pm //

          I understand perfectly. What you fail to understand is that I do not think they deserve a seat at the table.

        • Fred said “I understand perfectly. What you fail to understand is that I do not think they deserve a seat at the table.”

          No Fred, we understand perfectly that you are hateful. What you fail to understand is that we believe in the inherent worth and dignity of every person.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 11:07 pm //

          There you go with name-calling again. How do you get through the day seeing hate at every turn. Anyone who disagrees with you hates you. Why is it hate? Can you even explain that? Are you crazy?!

          Hate has noting to do with and you lost credibility as soon as you make an indefensible claim. How is it hate. What is hate to you? Did Romney hate Obama? Did Obama hate the House Speaker. Why does your argument have to involve hate?

        • You don’t think they deserve a seat at the table… Why do you feel it is your place to sit in judgement of other people?

        • Fred Cooper // May 25, 2013 at 8:30 am //

          Scouting policy says so until this new abomination takes place in January Beth. DO you not follow the rules you do not like of any organization you join?

          Absent that, I have posted at least 1,000 times that there is not conclusive proof from Scientists spending billions of private and public money that homosexuality can be scientifically proven to be genetically unavoidable. It is a non-reproductive sexual act to satisfy a sexual meed in no more than 6% of the population. The genetic markers and biological soup described by pro-homosexual Scientists certainly prove tendencies but there are tendencies for all types of sexual misconduct. Adulterers being the one most acted upon by heterosexuals who can’t commit to a loving, caring relationship in marriage the way God intended.

          Like I also said a 1,000 times before, I believe it is immoral behavior. for adults and has no place in Scouting as adulterers, liars and thieves have no place in Scouting. I think children are influenced by their parents, guardians or other family to acto on homosexual tendencies or created a persona based o homosexuality where no tendencies would otherwise exist or be acted on. I do not believe a child is mature enought to know they like boys sexually, romantically inclined to the same gender or think they were born with the wrong genetic parts without a little encouragement from an adult mentor in their lives. Or as has been proved many times, they were molested as a child.

        • Fred, Scouting policy also says that they don’t ask, and don’t expect that anyone will. The idea is, that if you keep it to yourself, it’s ok. Why should a gay scout have to keep it to himself? Straight scouts don’t have to…

        • Fred Cooper // May 25, 2013 at 9:36 am //

          Is it not true that sexuality has no place in Scouting and no Scout should discuss it?

          Are your heterosexual Scouts talking sexuality in meetings? You have a problem. They sure do not in mine. It has no place.

          Homosexuality now has an open acceptance in Scouting. You can check that box and tell your friends. As many of you say, its just like having blond hair. Being “out” is part of being homosexual, right? Why would it not be obvious to everyone around. The straight Scout who dislikes homosexuality will now be counseled and punished for being intolerant. Don’t you think that will be the norm? How will it not be handled that way by an organization that produces more training material than any other organization is the world.

          Be prepared to Homosexuality awareness merit badge and a section in Adult training and a half-day in Wood Badge with annual updates required on-line to be a leader.

          .If you’ve been Scouting a few years you know its true. They extract money better than any organization I have ever been a part of in my life.

        • No, Fred, I don’t have a problem. Scouts aren’t talking about sex in meetings. But other Scouts do know who is dating who, who is going to a dance with who, and so on. They don’t live in a vacuum when they are at scouts. They go to school together, as well. Gay kids should be allowed to live their lives the same as anyone else, and not be kicked out of an organization that they have been involved in since the first grade, and come to love in that time. That doesn’t mean that we bring sex into scouting. It stays at the door, same as it always has.

        • Fred Cooper // May 25, 2013 at 9:54 am //

          I refer you to my post to Tani where avoiding bad (immoral and unprincipled) people is both secular and biblical. No one has a right to pass through life without criticism or correction of bad behavior and positive mentoring to follow a high moral code. Its part of life, even a child’s life.

    • Bob Basement // May 24, 2013 at 8:51 am // Reply

      Ok I will post it

      I sense a bunch of homophobes here….and much hate.

      • Concerned About Scouting // May 24, 2013 at 2:20 pm // Reply

        I think it’s interesting that this discussioni always ends with those supporting homosexual inclusion resporting to accusing those not supporting it of hatred, bigotry, homophobia, etc. Yet there is never a willingness to unemotionally discuss the concerns. It seems more as if the idea is to misdirect rather than have a reasonable discussion – ad hominen and red herring fallacies designed to change the discussion.

      • Bobby Trosclair // May 24, 2013 at 7:54 pm // Reply

        How about a deal, Bob – you stop calling people who disagree with you “homophobes,” and they won’t call you a “homophile.”

  61. Maxx Kanzler // May 24, 2013 at 12:16 am // Reply

    Fixing my post above…..

    Unfortunately the “basic” problem ( not Brad Carter?) spell check…

    “” Who can’t get over the fact that people are different ….”” again spell check….

  62. People that I know have always respected the BSA for keeping Timeless Values and many people continue to want their sons joining moral organizations. The BSA National Council voted for the resolution because of a loss of money; they weren’t concerned with individual youth personal growth by associating with adults that can be good role models. The GayKK only wanted to get a foothold in Scouting so that maybe the BSA will allow future LGBT adults. What is wrong with this picture. The future of the BSA will be like the Canadian Boy Scouts, they have lost 50% of there membership, the people with a strong character and backbone left and the parents want no part of an experimental organization with there children. The Girl Scouts are now the face of every Liberal agenda program possible, teaching sex education, supporting the Planned Program Association,etc., they are losing membership. The BSA isn’t a religious organization, what? The Oath says Duty to God, Country ,and Self. The 12th point of the Scout Law is “A Scout is Reverent.” I don’t want the BSA to be an experimental Sociology study.

    • You really need to do some serious fact checking Sir.

    • Bob Basement // May 24, 2013 at 10:38 am // Reply

      Reverent means to show respect last time I checked the dictionary….

      • Your checking the wrong book. “Respectfully”, reverence is to GOD & the seriousness of a promise. Duty, Honor & Reverence are often NOT a convenient proposition. I understand that most of our earthly religious books speak to love each other. It doesn’t mean I have to love another’s way of living or their actions. Nor should I be forced to sacrifice my freedom of association. This does not make me a hater. It simply means I prefer the historical traditions of BSA. BSA has made their collective decision & now many other will make their own. God help us.

        • Bob Basement // May 24, 2013 at 4:15 pm //

          rev•er•ent (ˈrɛv ər ənt, ˈrɛv rənt)

          adj.
          feeling, exhibiting, or characterized by reverence; deeply respectful.
          [1350–1400; Middle English < Latin reverent-, s. of reverēns, present participle of reverērī to revere1; see -ent]
          rev′er•ent•ly, adv.
          Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

        • No worries, Mark, you have it right. Bob is just taking the typical progressive track of redefining accepted terminology to undermine an argument he can’t win. In context – that is, from the Boy Scout Handbook: “A Scout is Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.” Ironically, the last part is the part being violated by the Bob and his ilk. If he and they truly respected the beliefs of others, they’d be Navigators.

        • The BSA’s interpretation of reverent includes a statement of respect for the views of others. I ask, rhetorically, if you didn’t agree with the organization, why did you join?

        • Bob Basement // May 25, 2013 at 10:36 am //

          ya know Bob O..

          When I was in elementary school, I was taught you can’t use the word to define the word……

          Entertained by all the thrashing about here…..

          I understand that I will never change your mind……just as you will never change mine.

        • Fred Cooper // May 25, 2013 at 11:56 am //

          and yet we debate.

          “By the very act of arguing, you awake the patient’s reason; and once it is awake, who can foresee the result?”
          ― C.S. Lewis

        • Another deflection, Bob? This is why debating with progressive zealots is pointless. Pretending that you do not understand the Boy Scout Handbook, while claiming to argue that you understand Boy Scout values better than I, is disingenuous at best, blatant lying at worst. You don;t have a moral leg to stand on. Enjoy your victory and stop gloating. Move on; we will be.

    • I was told over a year ago from some older Scouters that have always had a keen eye for seeing the path that the BSA was heading. I did not want to believe what he was telling me. Well guess what, he was correct. Exactly what he said would happen did. Every blog site a could find that was discussing this had exactly the opposite outcome forcasted. It was planned by the upper management in BSA to do exactly this. Why is hard to understand as it will cost millions in lost revenue from the ranks and I don’t see corporate sponsors lining up to give their support.

  63. Do I know there have been, are and will continue to be gay Scouts? Of course.
    And that, coupled with the black and white, clinical words of the BSAs ruling today, is not the problem.
    Within minutes of the ruling, I saw posts from LGBT people saying the ruling is not enough and they’ll not be satisfied until openly gay leaders are allowed.
    I have a boatload of problems with that.
    First of all, if I have a child, it should be my place to be able to discuss sexuality issues with them, not to have the issue forced onto us, on a timeline that is beyond our control.
    Scouting has a “two-deep leadership” rule for the last several years that prohibits one-on-one contact between Scouts and any adults, unless that adult is a family member, so I have no concern of molestation.
    However, if gay leaders are allowed, there are other aspects of “two-deep” that will quickly become unworkable.
    Currently, unmarried adults of the opposite sex may not share tents, nor can Scouts stay in a tent with an adult who is not their parent of legal guardian. Allowing gays to assume leadership roles in a Scouting unit adds layers of complexity to what now is a fairly easy thing to regulate. But if a Scout has two parents of the same sex, but perhaps one is not a legally recognized guardian, that Scout would be forced out of the family tent, since no legal parental relationship exists.
    Also, since having gay leaders would make tenting with members of the same sex problematic, since the ‘unmarried’ relationship would be assumed for persons of the same sex, as well as the opposite sex.
    Although I do not have a problem with the youth policy, if anyone thinks it’s going to be sunshine and lollipops when these Scouts come out of the closet, they’re kidding themselves. I would earnestly hope that the Scouts would remain kind, as the Scout law requires, but I assume the same types of issues might arise, even within Scouting, from isolation, to unfortunately, hazing and potential violence. I suspect, due to this, there will be an unofficial and unspoken “Don’t Ask; Don’t Tell” policy followed by most gay Scouts and among most Troops.
    Finally, faith has always been a component of Scouting. No one ever tells a Scout how to be faithful and reverent, just that they acknowledge a higher power. Because of this foundation of faith, a significant number of Scouting units are chartered by religious organizations and churches, many of which believe, rightly or wrongly, that homosexuality is wrong. The youth ruling today will likely lead to some organizations to disband their Troops or Packs. Extending the ruling in the future, I fear, would wound Scouting to the core and lead to its dissolution.
    Gallup polls indicate about 4 percent of the population is gay. I believe in minority rights, but Scouting is a private organization and it is a shame that such a small group of potential members could undermine and destroy an organization devoted to teaching our youth life skills and the worthy ideals in the Scout Law.

    • Kickin’!!!! Me likey! Don’t know why the others don’t. It a shame….

    • I agree with most of your post. The resolution by the BSA states that homosexual and heretosexual conduct is impermissible. They basically put everyone on the same footing. We had an incident where a divorced father without warning brought his girlfriend. We were faced with the uncomfortable situation of explaining the problem. Then, I find out later that my 9 year old son saw these two idiots “making out” when they thought no one was looking. My son wanted to know why that woman was kissing his friend’s father; and where was the friend’s mother. It’s about respect for others. Something that has been lost. As far as the religious perspective, I was taught that you embrace them and pray for them to repent and for their salvation. They are not be excluded as long as the respect goes both ways.

    • Trenton Spears // May 24, 2013 at 4:41 pm // Reply

      Red man on the Blue island. A million thumbs up. Trenton Spears

      • Thanks, Trenton.
        -Red Man
        http://www.facebook.com/RedManOnTheBlueIsland

    • >>>>First of all, if I have a child, it should be my place to be able to discuss sexuality issues with them, not to have the issue forced onto us, on a timeline that is beyond our control.

      While on the surface that sounds sensible, in the real world your kids will encounter gay peers in school, in church, in sports, in their neighborhood, and perhaps even within your extended family. Realistically, you can’t create a “gay-free” world for your kids.

      >>>>Currently, unmarried adults of the opposite sex may not share tents, nor can Scouts stay in a tent with an adult who is not their parent of legal guardian.

      There is no reason for this to change. If need be, side-by-side tents can be arranged, with the consent of the legal guardian.

      >>>>Also, since having gay leaders would make tenting with members of the same sex problematic, since the ‘unmarried’ relationship would be assumed for persons of the same sex, as well as the opposite sex.

      It is unwise to assume that there were no gay leaders under the previous policy. Better to assume there *are*, and write policies accordingly.

      >>>>I would earnestly hope that the Scouts would remain kind, as the Scout law requires, but I assume the same types of issues might arise, even within Scouting, from isolation, to unfortunately, hazing and potential violence.

      It will be easier to nip this in the bud, if vulnerable scouts are able to share their concerns/experiences with leadership without fear of getting kicked out.

      >>>>I suspect, due to this, there will be an unofficial and unspoken “Don’t Ask; Don’t Tell” policy followed by most gay Scouts and among most Troops.

      I expect you’re right, especially if the scout aspires to holding a leadership position after age 18.

      >>>>a significant number of Scouting units are chartered by religious organizations and churches, many of which believe, rightly or wrongly, that homosexuality is wrong.

      Generally they believe homosexual *behavior* is wrong. That view is not inconsistent with the new policy, as written. Read it carefully.

      >>>>Scouting is a private organization and it is a shame that such a small group of potential members could undermine and destroy an organization devoted to teaching our youth life skills and the worthy ideals in the Scout Law.

      I don’t think a few gay scouts will undermine the whole organization, if the folks who aren’t gay give it a chance. Those kids have been there all along.

      • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 9:52 pm // Reply

        It is unwise to assume that there were no gay leaders under the previous policy. Better to assume there *are*, and write policies accordingly.

        Wow. What other sexual activities should we “assume” ‘are’ going on so we can write policies for them?

        • She didn’t say there were sexual activities going on in scouts. Only that some leaders probably happen to be gay.

        • So, beth, do we really want people who Nature has decided should no longer be in the gene pool, and therefore led them to choose to be gay, teaching our kids life lessons? Really?

        • Bob, people don’t choose to be gay. They just are gay. They realize it at some point in their development.

          As for having gay individuals lead our children, and teach them life lessons… I don’t see why not. Gay people have taught my son in school. There are gay members of my family that have made beneficial contributions to the lives of me, my son, and all the other members of my family. Gay people are just people. They want the same things we all want.

        • “Gay” doesn’t mean behaving in any specific way. It means simply an orientation. You seem to think all gay people have sex in scouting. A ridiculous assumption. Assuming you are straight , do you have sex during your scouting activities? Or any activities?

        • Fred Cooper // May 28, 2013 at 8:14 am //

          Jeff, most every homosexual i know exhibits behavior related to their sexual orientation. Men behave and dress in a certain way so do women. Its ridiculous to assume they do not.

          Nice try to misdirect the argument to me. Do you not believe that placing sexually confused and sexually attracted youth togther does not raise teh risk of boy-boy sexual contact? Man, you are blind if you do.

        • EagleMom // May 27, 2013 at 6:05 pm //

          @Fred Cooper
          >>>It is unwise to assume that there were no gay leaders under the previous policy. Better to assume there *are*, and write policies accordingly.

          Boys typically join Scouting when they are 7 or 8. At this age, in most cases, sexual orientation couldn’t be farther from their minds. As they enter their tweens, they may start getting crushes, as most of us do. For a few, those crushes will be on guys. It’s unrealistic to think that they will immediately think, “Hey, I think that guy in my math class is cute. Oh, that must mean I’m gay. Better tell mom & dad tomorrow that I’ll have to quit Scouts”. It’s a *way* more complex process than that. Therefore, it’s not unreasonable to assume that there will be some boys in Scouting who experience same-sex attraction. Having policies that recognize this reality is safer for the boys than writing policies that assume that this is never the case.

          >>>>Wow. What other sexual activities should we “assume” ‘are’ going on so we can write policies for them?

          When it comes to activity (rather than just attraction), the new policy makes it clear that “Any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.”

        • Trenton Spears // May 27, 2013 at 8:57 pm //

          EagleMom If the ban was lifted because of the silent homosexuals that were in Scouting what does that say about the those who remained silent. Eagle Mom we are a nation of laws and so is the BSA. I have always expected that when a Eagle Scout recieved his award it was because of his obediance to the Scout Oath and Scout Law that the BSA have supported for a 103 years. No Council ot troop that approves any action based on dishonesty, cheating or disrespect for the purpose of that organization will survive in the long run. I believe that the ban should not have been lifted based on the fact that some homosexual scouts were dishonest and chose to be a scout under a cloud of dishonesty. Eagle Mom what if one of you children cheated at school and passed their test knowing that they were dishonest and you found out about it would you appove of that dishonesty? If a person does not like the laws then try to change them before they break them that is the American way.Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • EagleMom // May 28, 2013 at 11:30 am //

          Trenton, I can see your concern that gay scouts should not “hide” to avoid being kicked out of Scouts. But how do you see this playing out, in practical terms?
          –Most kids join scouts when they are 7 or 8. It’s inappropriate for anyone, including a boy himself, to label a kid this age “gay”. All of these boys should be welcome in Scouting. And yet, a small percentage of these kids will, by their teenage years, consider themselves to be gay.
          –At some point, a boy may experience same-sex attraction – having a “crush” on another boy. Like for other young girls and boys, this “crush” is unlikely to lead to any sexual behavior. Should such a boy reveal his crush to his parents, and ask to leave Scouts?
          –If the same-sex attraction continues, the boy may begin to consider himself “gay”. Again,, he has not acted on his feelings. Should he, at this point, reveal his feelings about being “gay” to his parents, and ask to leave Scouts?

          You can see that there is not a specific point in this development where the boy switches from “presumably not gay” to “gay”; rather, it is a continuum. As such, it’s perfectly reasonable to see that there will be a small number of boys at some stage along this continuum in Scouting, even if they leave Scouts before they participate in any homosexual behavior.

      • Bob Basement // May 24, 2013 at 10:08 pm // Reply

        As a lad 40 years ago now……I had a gay ASM as a member of the troop. Great guy.

        As a current leader I have met a number of gay scouters…..Great folks.

        As a current leader I have met a number of gay scouts……

        • AWESOME BOB :)

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 10:10 pm //

          You guys must have really put the welcome mat out or are a San Fran or similar city unit. Never seen or heard of a homosexual in Scouting in 16 years. don’t know anybody who has.

        • Fred I feel so sorry for you a a person to live in such a small universe. Best of luck in life love and tolerance I will pray for you.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 10:35 pm //

          I appreciate your prayers. And I pray for enlightenment for you as well and a internal examination of you moral standards especially since you have children. I will pray for them as well.

        • EagleMom // May 24, 2013 at 10:23 pm //

          @Fred Cooper
          >>>>You guys must have really put the welcome mat out or are a San Fran or similar city unit. Never seen or heard of a homosexual in Scouting in 16 years. don’t know anybody who has.

          My kids have a friend who is a gay Eagle scout. Been to Philmont and the whole shebang. In the Northeast, it’s not that big of a deal, as the BSA survey showed. But at the same time, the gay folks I know don’t go around talking about it all the time either. If you are an older gentleman, it may be that gay folks in Scouting simply don’t share that information with you. Indeed, it could get them kicked out of Scouting, so it would not be wise for them to be open with you about it. Don’t assume you don’t know any gay Scouts; in fact, you probably do.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 10:45 pm //

          Northeast. That explains a lot. I’m sure you do have a lot of homosexuals running around your Troops. I am from the South. I am sure I do not. And yes, they would be out if they told me because I don’t willingly violate Policy because i want homosexuals in Scouting.

        • EagleMom // May 24, 2013 at 11:08 pm //

          @Fred Cooper
          >>>>Northeast. That explains a lot. I’m sure you do have a lot of homosexuals running around your Troops. I am from the South. I am sure I do not. And yes, they would be out if they told me because I don’t willingly violate Policy because i want homosexuals in Scouting.

          – How do you know you don’t have any gay Scouts? How do you know they just aren’t telling you, because they know you’d kick them out for it? I don’t think there are any fewer gay teens in the South than there are in the Northeast.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 11:11 pm //

          I think you have no understanding of the South. I am basing my opinions on what I know of the Northeast from what I have read, people I have talked to, BSA studies and surveys and what you have said.

          Preparing for the name-calling to follow…

          I stand by what I said before about homosexuals in the South in Scouting.

        • EagleMom // May 24, 2013 at 11:37 pm //

          @Fred Cooper
          >>>>I think you have no understanding of the South. I am basing my opinions on what I know of the Northeast from what I have read, people I have talked to, BSA studies and surveys and what you have said.
          Preparing for the name-calling to follow…
          I stand by what I said before about homosexuals in the South in Scouting.

          I’m not going to call anyone names.
          I believe you when you say that you’ve never seen or heard of a Scout you knew to be gay. I’m not disagreeing with that.
          I’ve lived in several areas of the South myself, though I now live in the Northeast. I do believe that gay teens in the Northeast are more likely to be open about it. Communities in the Northeast are more likely to be accepting of their gay youth. After all, most of the states in the Northeast now allow gay marriage; many through votes in the state legislature or even statewide ballot initiatives.
          However, I can’t think of any reason why there would be significantly fewer gay teens in the South than the Northeast. While adults may move to places like California or New York, where they are more accepted, teens have to “grow where they’re planted”, at least while they are young. And of course boys join scouting when they are 7 or 8, an age where sexual orientation doesn’t generally come up, so I’d expect the percentage of gays in Scouting to be about the same as in the general population, at least initially. So I’m assuming that there are likely to have been some Scouts you’ve encountered over the years who are in fact gay, but who have not brought it up with you. Do you think that’s a possibility?

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 11:41 pm //

          I don’t see any point in responding to hypothetical s that I have already said I have not encountered in the real world. The culture is different is why you have so many homosexuals in the Northeast in my opinion. Very few teach it is immoral and wrong.

        • Having lived most of my life in the northeast (Massachusetts) and south (Georgia and Virginia), Fred is absolutely correct. Basic societal structures, especially the family and the neighborhood, are ex-urban anymore and thus live and thrive in the south but have been all but destroyed in the northeast. There are still some bastions of morality and “old-fashioned” family values in the few remaining farming and fishing areas of the northeast but, in general, the I-95 corridor north of the Potomac is Provincetown writ large. One has to search long and hard to find Mayberry in the northeast – in the south you have to avoid it if you so desire.

        • Bob Basement // May 25, 2013 at 10:08 am //

          Old fred is in the south…….

          Where they cancel prom so the Colored and White folk don’t mix and then throw race specific Graduation Dances….

          Several of the gay scouters I met were on Woodbadge staff. Not hating great folks.

        • Fred Cooper // May 25, 2013 at 10:16 am //

          All posters will remember that I posted: “expecting the inevitable name-calling to follow.”

          I am glad you are consistent Bob!

          Let’s see. The most successful KKK membership numbers were in Indiana.

          Glad to see you are firmly rooted in the past and bring your regional biases up whenever you need to cloud the issue. Good work!

        • Bob Basement // May 25, 2013 at 10:24 am //

          I honestly look forward to looking at the new organization that the On my honor group is creating…….

          I would like to see their membership standards…..So what about adulterers and Divorcee’s? How are they going to fit the moral code???? What about Parents who have youth out of wed lock???? Are they morally acceptable to be leaders?????

          Ya I am trolling,

        • Fred Cooper // May 25, 2013 at 10:29 am //

          I am interested too. I believe it will look a lot like the BSA policy before yesterday. Immoral and unprincipled people will not qualify. True, there are not as many to go around these days but what organization is worth joining that does not have standards. There are many out there and they are Social Clubs. I am sure they could add a chidrens program and might be more appealing to some.

  64. Who are the ‘voting’ members?

    Who voted for this abomination?

    • Not fair….. Me NO likey!

    • I agree with your questioning. As a Scoutmaster there are way to many possible scenarios that could go haywire. As Adult Leaders we already have a great responcibilty to keep the Scouts safe and free from any harm, now that they have permitted this policy, I see potential for foul play amongst Scouts. I can foresee lawsuits because a Gay Scout inappropriately touched or fondled a non-gay boy. Another scenario would be the potential for boys immunlating their parents homophobic idealogy, right or wrong, and saying a gay Scout did something he may not have done. Enter the Lawyers. My stand is the same, I have yet in 43 years of Scouting seen any occasion for either lifestyle in Scouting. I do not tolerate any fooling around in my troop. Just goofing around and towel snapping or “nut-slapping” is off limit. Parents are notified and told to come get the Scouts involved. As a Christian, I follow the Scripture as reverently as I can. It says that it is an abomination before God. This is fine for those who believe the divine Word of God. Those who are agnostic, atheist, or occasionally religious are far more accepting of this policy. For that reason alone it should have been a National Membership vote. Yes Membership, the boys have a right to have their voice heard as well.

  65. I comment the BSA National Council on putting the issue to a vote of the Council members. Two decades ago when this got started what bothered me the most was that policy on a divisive issue was instituted without input from local Councils or a vote to amend or clarify National’s Charter, Bylaws, Rules or Regulations regarding membership.

  66. In 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed the right of the Scout organization to exclude homosexuals, because the behavior violated the core values of the private organization. Also known as “Timeless Values”

    • David Engh // May 24, 2013 at 12:06 pm // Reply

      Yes, that decision did affirm the right of the organization as a private entity to set its own membership policies, including discriminatory ones.

      It also affirmed the organization’s right to have *non*-discriminatory policies if it saw fit to do so. The 1400 voting members saw fit to make such a change yesterday.

      For 70-and-some years, those “Timeless Values” did not include any specific statement on sexuality.

      • Yes & it should have stayed that way. There is no place for this in Scouting!

        • J.R Albor // May 24, 2013 at 10:52 pm //

          yes, i completely agree with that statement that sexuality has no place in scouting, however, what i don’t agree with is the discrimination. I don’t care if you are gay or bi or whatever, just as long as you don’t implement it into what you do in scouting i am a happy, as i said it doesn’t belong but it doesn’t mean you should ban them, just don’t ask, and if you happen to find out they are gay, as long as their not implementing it or expressing their sexuality in scouting it should be alright and should be allowed to stay. However, if they are implementing it and then at that point its game over. But this is just my opinion that can differ from anyone else. we all have opinions that differ and no one has the right say you are wrong on it, that is why it called an opinion.

    • Nancy Grossman // May 24, 2013 at 8:40 pm // Reply

      How “private” is a tax-exempt organization? I applaud the Scout leadership for finally affirming that we are here to serve ALL boys. As Wayne Perry said, “No matter how you feel about this issue, kids are better off in Scouting. Our vision is to serve every kid. We want every kid to have a place where they belong.”

      My kid has found a wonderful place to belong…..and I want that same opportunity to be available to all boys who choose to live by the Scout Oath and Law.

      • yes Nancy I agree. I even spoke of this issue today with a troop leader and he even stated that if people think that there has never been gays in scouting then they need to wake up and take off their blinders.They have always been there with very little to no issues and I am sure these young men all became better adults for the tolerance they all learned, and the friendships gained.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 9:29 pm //

          See my response to another poster. In 16 years I have never seen or heard of a homosexual Scout or Scouter in Scouting or OA and not even at Jamboree. Where do you live? You Troop meetings must be much more open than ours.

          In any case, better they stayed in the shadows and homosexuality would still be out of Scouting as an official policy.

        • Trenton Spears // May 24, 2013 at 9:53 pm //

          Tani I was a Boy Scout in 1949 and the only reference to homosexuals was outside of scouting and they were refered as being queers and to be left alone. There might have been homosexuals in scouting but I did know of one it wasn’t because I had blinders on I was just an innocent 12 yr.old kid enjoying the fun of scouting. I found out in 2000 that a homosexual could not be in Scouting because of the Supreme Court decision that the BSA had the right to exclude gays. I have personally never met a homosexual in 28 years of scouting. So my blindness came from not seeing any homosexual’s in scouting. The reference to blinders has raised its discriminating head and those who knew homosexuals in scouting deliberatley ignored it and it became a protective issue for the homosexual not a very scout like attribute. Trenton Spears
          Trenton Spears

        • Well and Politely said Trenton . I respect your honesty. But they have always been there just like in the military, it has just been kept quiet. Allowing people to be who they are is a good thing. I respectfully hope Boy Scouts continue and grow from this decision

        • Trenton Spears // May 25, 2013 at 3:50 pm //

          Tani here is how it is working out Latest news report.The historic vote by the Boy Scouts of America’s National Council Thursday to allow openly homosexual youth in the program but exclude homosexual adult leaders has left people on both sides of the issue unhappy.
          California Democratic state Sen. Ricardo Lara says that despite the vote, he will continue to push a resolution that would revoke the BSA’s tax-exempt status “to ensure that discrimination in any form does not exist – not in our state, not on our dime.”
          The homosexual-rights group GLAAD said it and other like-minded activist groups will now encourage “gay” youth to participate in the Boy Scouts. But spokesman Ross Murray said “the ban on gay adult leaders is still a major barrier for many families and organizations.”
          He hopes, the Washington Post reported, that as homosexual youth “demonstrate their dedication to the program; hopefully it can change the culture of the organization from the inside.”
          Meanwhile, a coalition of members of the BSA who actively opposed the policy change says it is considering forming an alternative scouting organization.
          “Many Americans around the country will find it difficult to support the Boy Scouts of America after this decision,” said John Stemberger, founder of OnMyHonor.Net. “Despite this setback, we will look to the future.”
          Stemberger said his group will meet with likeminded organizations, parents and BSA members next month in Louisville, Ky., to discuss the creation of a “new character development organization for boys.”
          “We grieve today, not because we are faced with leaving Scouting, but because the Boy Scouts of America has left us,” Stemberger said.
          “Its leadership has turned its back on 103 years of abiding by a mission to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices,” he said. “Instead, it is embarking on a pathway of social experimentation that we believe will place at risk the very youth the organization is entrusted to serve, while rendering as hollow the tenets of the Scout Oath.”
          Stemberger said his group welcomes public comments as it develops its plans, via email at Contact@OnMyHonor.Net
          The Assemblies of God and the Southern Baptist Convention are among the church denominations that already have formed their own Scouts-like organizations.
          The BSA said Thursday the resolution to change the membership policy was approved by 61 percent of the approximately 1,400 Boy Scout leaders from across the nation who voted at the organization’s annual conference in Grapevine, Texas.
          In a statement issued after the vote, the BSA said the resolution “reinforces that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.”
          The policy change is effective Jan. 1, 2014, “allowing the transition time needed to communicate and implement this policy to its approximately 116,000 Scouting units.”
          Responding to the vote, the Family Research Council “expressed deep disappointment at the Boy Scouts of America.”
          “Sadly, the Boy Scouts’ legacy of producing great leaders has become yet another casualty of moral compromise,” said FRC President Tony Perkins. “Unfortunately, Boy Scout delegates capitulated to strong-arm tactics and abandoned the timeless values that have served the organization well for more than 100 years.”
          Perkins said the delegates “succumbed to a concerted and manipulative effort by the national BSA leadership despite the BSA’s own survey showing 61 percent of its members in opposition to changing the policy.”
          The new policy, devised after an extensive survey of BSA members, is a revision of a proposal issued in January that would have allowed local troops to decide whether or not to accept openly homosexual members and leaders.
          The Scouts count more than 2.7 million members and more than 1 million volunteers.
          The BSA said it has “no plans for further review on this matter.”
          “The Boy Scouts of America will not sacrifice its mission, or the youth served by the movement, by allowing the organization to be consumed by a single, divisive, and unresolved societal issue,” the statement said.
          The BSA said that while “people have different opinions about this policy, we can all agree that kids are better off when they are in Scouting.”
          The BSA’s decision to propose a change in policy, as WND reported, coincided with a sudden drop in major corporate funding that began last summer after a “gay”-rights blogger for the Huffington Post published a collaborative report that named the donors and chastised them for violating their own policy of not discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation.
          Stemberger has contended that a change in the membership policy would “gut a major percentage of human capital in the BSA and utterly devastate the program financially, socially and legally.”
          He has called the policy change “logically incoherent and morally and ethically inconsistent.”
          “Opening the Boy Scouts to boys who openly proclaim being sexually attracted to other boys and/or openly identify themselves as ‘gay’ will inevitably create an increase of boy-on-boy sexual contact,” said Stemberger in an open letter to the voting Scout leaders.
          He says internal estimates by the BSA project an estimated $44 million of lost annual revenue if the policy is changed.
          He points to BSA’s own “Voice of the Scout” surveys that indicate tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of parents, scoutmasters and scouts would leave the program if the proposal were adopted.
          A member of the National Council previously told WND a decision to change the policy would prompt a mass exodus at all levels of the organization.
          Last July, after a thorough two-year study, an 11-member committee of professional scout executives and adult volunteers unanimously concluded the policy of not allowing open homosexuals should be maintained.
          In 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed the right of the Scout organization to exclude homosexuals, because the behavior violated the core values of the private organization.
          © Copyright 1997-2013. All Rights Reserved. WND.com.

        • Nancy Grossman // May 25, 2013 at 1:26 pm //

          I will share my experience, as someone with gay family members and close friends who lives in the Northeast (yes, where more people are comfortable being “out”) and in a state that has legalized gay marriage–i.e., someone who might be more aware if someone is gay or not. I have occasionally been surprised to learn that someone I have known for some time is gay, and I only find out because of something they say about their same-sex partner or spouse. Two points here: 1) the gay people I know look and act pretty much like everyone else I know, and 2) sexual orientation can be easy to miss–or hide, when necessary. Anyone remember Rock Hudson?

          I suspect there are just as many gays in the South as anywhere else–many just keep more quiet about it, to minimize the backlash from those who think they are evil sinners.

  67. Matthew Hipsher // May 24, 2013 at 2:33 am // Reply

    So if a scout stays “in the closet” that’s ok, we’ll share tents and showers with them, like we’ve been doing the past 100 years. But the moment that boy comes out, he gets a special tent area and showers. And why would a gay scout ever come out? All he hears now at meetings is how bad this decision is and “no son of mine” blah blah blah. Any boy who comes out becomes the target, not the predator.

    • No such comments have been made in any meeting that I have ever heard of or conducted. This has been & should always be a conversation between a boy & his parent(s) or guardian. I have had this conversation with my son & now he / we have a decision to make. There may be some that worry about predatory practices, but not me or mine. It is simply a matter of choice. I would choose a “straight” BSA. Are there gays? Sure. They have always had the choice to stay in the closet or come out. No matter how you slice it; its a mess. I just don’t think I should have to sacrifice my freedom of association. This stinks.

    • Any gay scout joined under false pretenses. One cannot be simultaneously gay and morally straight, reverent, and do(ing) their duty to God as Scouts swear to do. “Gay Scout” is an oxymoron.

      • Bob Osipov writes: “One cannot be simultaneously gay and morally straight, reverent, and do(ing) their duty to God as Scouts swear to do.”

        We understand that in your church that is impossible. Please be tolerant and understand that in my church it is possible, so we welcome the new rule as one borne out of love.

        • Then you should have joined the Navigators rather than join an organization with which you obviously disagree with the sole intent of destroying that organization. Where is your “tolerance”, db? Why not associate freely with those of a similar bent rather than interfere with the lives of others you obviously do not respect?

  68. Gary Wilson // May 24, 2013 at 4:03 am // Reply

    Settle down, everyone, with the conjecture. This policy doesn’t go into effect for 7 months.

    When the US Military removed it’s “Don”t Ask , Don’t Tell” policy, they spent a lot of time first working out the technical details before actual implementation and then conducting education on it. If the military could figure it out with people living together 24/7, I’m sure BSA can also come up with workable guidelines during the coming months.

    • Concerned About Youth. // May 24, 2013 at 8:27 am // Reply

      Gary,
      Keep in mind the military members work within a different structure. They are given no choice and are not allowed to publically discuss it. I think if you talk to individual members, you will not find a easy compliance – particularly in the dorms.

    • Gary, you fail to undertsand something very basic. When I joined th service, I had a choice to join or not to join and under what terms. When you belong or join an organization that met your beliefs and standards and they change them, against your core fabric, then you have a make a decision. It’s a person choice – whether to stay or leave based upon ones beliefs.

    • Hey Gary,

      Did you see the military’s latest statistics on male on male assults since 2012? They are up 20%. Isnt that when it became “OK” to be gay?

      http://www.wnd.com/2013/05/military-suffers-wave-of-gay-sex-assaults/

      • Trenton Spears // May 24, 2013 at 6:14 pm // Reply

        Glenn nice try the increase in the military does not have anything to do with the Homosexual moverment there is simply no jobs for many of the adults coming out of High School and College earning money is a necessity and joining the military has been a great source for suviving in this economy. The need join the BSA is a non essential choice. Trenton Spears

      • In my experience second hand sources are often biased and original sources more accurate, The WND link does not cite the referenced report and the 20% number is from a person who operates a partisan web site.

        Original reports on the subject available at http://www.sapr.mil/
        The DoD site contains a report citing the percentage of unwanted sexual contact on active duty men as follows:
        2006: 1.8%, 2010: 0.9% & 2012: 1.2%

        Did I check all reports? NO. Investigate and discern the fact yourself

    • Does this mean we will now be expected to have Merit Badge Councilors on Altenative Lifestyles MB?

      • lol, yes, William, this pretty much blows the “Family Life” MB out of the water, doesn’t it? Of course, by voting to abandon the Oath and Law they’ve pretty much put everything else on the table, too, so who knows how this will go. Will the next MB be “Heterosexual Awareness”?

        • Absolutely ridiculous. The Family Life merit badge is still relevant. Gay people have families, after all. There’s certainly no need for a homosexual merit badge. Gay people don’t want to join scouts for a place to be gay. They want to join scouts for a place to be scouts.

        • That’s ludicrous, beth. They wouldn’t have “joined to be scouts” knowing that scouts did not include gays. They joined to deny scouting to others, to advance their own choices over those of others. As for “family”: if they had a functioning family, they wouldn’t have chosen to be gay.

        • EagleMom // May 27, 2013 at 3:27 pm //

          @Bob Osipov
          >>>>That’s ludicrous, beth. They wouldn’t have “joined to be scouts” knowing that scouts did not include gays. They joined to deny scouting to others, to advance their own choices over those of others. As for “family”: if they had a functioning family, they wouldn’t have chosen to be gay.

          Most kids join Scouting when they’re 7 or 8. They don’t join to make a political statement, or to somehow deny Scouting to others through their presence, or to advance or advocate for any kind of life choices. They’re little kids. They join to do Pinewood Derby, and go camping, and spend time with friends,

  69. William D LaRuffa // May 24, 2013 at 7:16 am // Reply

    I want to thank the 1400 Members for voting and helping to guide Scouting during this time of change. This decision was not an easy one as it is such a polarizing topic. We are a providing a program for the youth, and we needed to keep that in mind. I thought the vote would have been decided by tenth of a percent in either direction, I am happy to see the difference in opinion was much larger.

    • Trenton Spears // May 24, 2013 at 11:46 am // Reply

      There was a reason for having the 1400 delegates come to Grapevine Texas for the vote it was to sway the delegates with a homosexual biased siminar led by Wayne Brock and his Executive staff. I would like to have minute report of the days leading up to the vote on Thursday. The 1400 delegates could have voted proxy and voted from their home areas. But having to be in Grapevine gave the National leaders the opportunity to convince the delegates that the future of scouting would depend on lifting the ban. I have seen the decline in Scouting for the last 15 years and I believe that the National Board has been under a lot of stress finding a way to stop the decline and lack of funding I have too. I am a Boy Scout recruiter and it has been a uphill battle to recruit with uncertainey in the political arm of the non political BSA. Lifting this ban will not increase membership it will harm the recruiting efforts of the local councils. The facts that 2 to 3 % homosexuals in the nation does not enlarge the recruiting pool. I believe that we are going in the wrong direction and when Adult Homosexuals legally come in to the BSA [ which they will ] it will be the final step to decrease growth and funding in the BSA. Over 60% of responces to the National BSA survey did not want to have the ban lifted their responces were ignored proving one fact the 1400 delegates in Grapevine Texas were out of touch with mainsteam BSA members. I believe that many families wil stay in scouting for a while but I believe that long term scouting is in serious peril and when we recharter in December the result of this vote will have a impact on the decision to remain in the BSA. Sincerely,
      Trenton Spears
      Scoutmaster

      • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 1:06 pm // Reply

        Excellent analysis. Thank you for your service!

        • Excellent analysis? You’re kidding, right? That was nothing but speculation and supposition.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 8:49 pm //

          .C’mon db, let me see your analysis. I am sure it will be so much better. Where is it? I look forward to seeing it.

      • Totally agree Trenton, we have lost many seasoned troops in our District and Council over the past four or five years. When you investigate the root cause it seems to always go back to a few things. The overall cost of Scouting, All the hoops and redtape and “online” training that has to be done continually, like every two years your Adult Leadership may all of a sudden turn into pedohiles or criminals. If the Districts and Councils did a better job of reaching out to their Troops and Packs, they might have the pulse of Scouting. Many of the new District Executives are recent college grads, who have never even been in Scouts. What better way to infiltrate a private organization with this passive permissive attitude. Another pet-peeve of mine is Councils dictating that the DD’s and DE’s must start so many new Chartered Troops. Why, when in many cases there are already existing Troops that are well rounded and have very deep alumni support. This should not be a requirement of the DE. They need to concentrate on serving the existing Troops and Packs and Training and educating themselves as to what being a Scout is. Look at what a bust the national TV program on “Tougher than A Boy Scout”. What a joke. Get a baker’s dozen Eagle Scouts to go up against three old Scouters or formal Scouters who didn’t quite make it to Eagle. These old guys didn’t stand a chance against these young Eagle Scouts. Now had you done this with Adult Leaders from outstanding Troops and put them against these Eagles, you might have had a show.

      • As far as I am concerned this is a slap in the face to all of the hard working volunteers by the “paid” professional Scouter elite. It affects those of us in the trenches so to speak. We as Leaders are the ones who take on the burden of responcibilty for protecting the Scouts from harmful negative influence. Just stop and think about how many young men we have guided over the years and kept out of gangs, drugs, tobacco, and alcohol. They never forget their Scouting experience. This is why I give away so much of my free time to devote myself to molding these young men into fine upstanding citizens, not polarized politized splinter groups. This will unfortunate set the BSA on to the road to dimenished stature in our respective communities. Iread somewhere that the gay and lesbian populace was like 4-6%. Why would we jepordize over a hundred years of successful youth character building for such a small group, especially since we are a private entity. It doesn’t make any since what their agenda was or is. This is going to hurt in more ways than I care to imagine. I had siz grandsons in scouting prior to this vote. I now have one,the grandson I am raising. The main reason, he told me no matter what was decided,he had spent all of his past ten years to get to where he is in Scouting and he wants to reach his Eagle. I am proud of him for that. My personal beliefs would not affect my Leadership objectives, I just prefer not to have their gay agenda forced down my throat.

        • Karen Zeller // May 29, 2013 at 11:23 pm //

          The ~1400 who voted were volunteers, not professionals. This was a decision made by volunteers.

  70. Hopefully we can all remember our own Scout manners and training and remember to speak respectfully and politely, even to those with whom we disagree. A Scout is kind.

    • Perhaps kindness still applies, but morally straight has been cast aside.

      • Nancy Grossman // May 24, 2013 at 2:24 pm // Reply

        “Morally straight” was in use decades before “straight” came to mean “not gay”, and meaning instead, of course, something more akin to “morally upright.”

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 8:56 pm //

          Homosexuality is not even “morally upright” is it? Probably for you though, right?

    • You will see how kind and civil the gay and lesbian groups and media are going to be to the BSA. This is not what they want. They want full allowance of Homosexual Leaders. It will end up being just like our public schools and colleges, led by a bunch of PC wimps, promoting their agendas and exposing our children to this dispicable lifestyle.

  71. Curtis Bowman // May 24, 2013 at 8:45 am // Reply

    I think sexual orientation is a bad attribute to judge fitness for leadership on. If our youth come from a home with two dads or two moms—it seems wrong to me to accept the scout and exclude the parent. We are a family organization, and families come in a myriad of forms. If adults of scouts choose to train, take a background check and volunteer their time with a troop—sexual orientation should not exclude them. Sexual orientation has no correlation to sexual abuse, or to being a good person. The BSA is holding “morally straight” to be “sexually straight,” not the same thing

    • Disagree. The boy is welcome. No one should make any comment about the “family” make-up. IF the parents want the boy in the program, then they have to accept that the program would not allow them to serve as leaders. Doesn’t make them bad or immoral people & doesn’t make BSA the bad guy either. When I think about morality, I think about what I have been taught. While I would not call a LBGT person immoral, I do not believe their lifestyle is “moral”. More over as long as I don’t have to be involved with that issue, then it make sense to me that I should not judge, but when I am attacked for my freedom of association, then who hold the moral high ground.

  72. “As the National Executive Committee just completed a lengthy review process, there are no plans for further review on this matter.”

    Wishful thinking by the Executive Committee. The only way to settle this once and for all is to issue a full non-discrimination policy and open Scouting to all. And yes, that policy should include girls, and should not force a belief in God.

    I propose…. “The Boy Scouts of America does not discriminate on the basis of race, religion, color, sex, age, physical or mental disability, national origin, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, or any other basis covered by local law.”

    Scouting/USA!

    • I’m out!

    • sorry its called boy scouts and girl scouts the coed portion is for older scouts and that I believe is venturing

    • Scouter, we already allow girls aged 14 or older. It’s known as Venture Crews.

    • Fred Cooper // May 25, 2013 at 12:19 pm // Reply

      And so it begins. Who in their right mind did not expect teh progressive agenda to pounce once the policy was adopted to open the door even wider.

  73. Why did you fail to post my comment about the vote percentage requirements requird by the Charter and Bylaws? This was done before the rest of the above posts for today?

  74. This membership issue is only as issue because we let it be an issue. As a Scout and Scouter for more than a few years I have seen a number of changes that didn’t agree with, but have remained in the program because it’s pluses number way more than it’s negatives. I have never thought that letting women be a Scoutmaster was a good thing, but I’ve seen those troops that wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for that lady. Does the good here outweigh the bad? In my opinion, yes. Would I have voted for the change? Probably not, but that doesn’t mean I’ll resign my membership like some spoiled child who doesn’t get his way. Considering the changes we undertake every day in our lives, it’s amazing some people belong to anything other than their own ego.

    Scouting is still the best and I’m honored to be a member.

    • Very nicely written.

      • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 8:53 pm // Reply

        Okay Me. I like that logic. As long as you can keep down the immoral part, the rest if good. What might cause it ti tilt 50%? Homosexual adults? or will you just the line alittle further back in the sand? I think the latter.

        • J.R Albor // May 24, 2013 at 11:09 pm //

          your views of morality are a little discombobulated my good sir. Morals differ between people and religion and you really fail to understand(after reading your responses) that people have different opinions. you seem to just get angry like a child when people have different views than you, to me it seems like you are trying to force your opinions on others, and it wont work. everyone on this blog has different opinions about this and some people are just complaining that they did not get there way. i don’t know why people think their opinions are fact over others. come back to reality, their called opinions for a reason. and your morals are not the same as others, so again, just because you believe something does not mean it is factual.

        • Absolutely wrong, J.R. The Scouts were just fine as along as they held to their beliefs. The Scout Oath and Law were the bedrock and the reason most joined. It is those who forced the change in those time-honored values who are intolerant and forcing their views onto others. People happy with gays could easily have joined another organization with which they agreed rather than infiltrate and destroy an organization with which they differed. Gays and gay supporters chose the latter path. For all they demand it, “tolerance” is obviously not part of their chosen lifestyle.

  75. A poster indicated that the by-laws of the organization requires a 2/3rds vote for approval. This threshold was not reached. Can we obtain a copy of the by-laws and/or the name and contact number of the secretary and parliamentarian of the BSA? Brian, can you help.

    • Gary Wilson // May 24, 2013 at 11:28 am // Reply

      This wasn’t a change to the by-laws.

      • That’s interesting, Gary. Perhaps that’s the way to fix this. Demand a change in the by-laws reinstating the old policy. If opened to entire membership rather than a few spineless functionaries, such an amendment would very likely pass and put us back on the right path. Good thinking!

  76. Right, this is just one of those topics where you have groups yelling at each other from their own ledge. It’s a difficult thing. I just have to think about it that the BSA isn’t a “Christian” organization. They have gone through this type of thing before back when non-white scouts weren’t allowed to be in units with white scouts, etc… Is being gay wrong? From a Biblical perspective the Bible does touch on those things, and it also talks about other things being sins like greed, apathy, laziness, drunkenness, hatred, etc… Is one sin worse than another? I’ve always been taught that ALL sin separates us from God. So, is the BSA the morality police? Well, if they are, then we must disallow every scout from being in scouting that breaks any of the morals in the Bible. So, that being said – we no longer have a Boy Scouts that does actually teach good principles because no one meets the moral code of conduct except Jesus and he had tax gatherers and sinners as his disciples. Hate the sin and love the sinner has typically meant for Christians that we quarantine ourselves from them (though ironically we are one of them). I would propose that we would not be salt and light to the world if we are not willing to associate with the sinner. Which again, we all fall into this category. If you do find the “perfect” boy organization out out there, don’t join it because you most certainly will muck it up.

    • BSA is not the appropriate platform for a boy to “learn” about anything of a sexual matter. There is just too may issues that Scout Leaders should not have to deal with. I do my best to love the sinner; just don’t ask me to have to allow those who find no sin in their way of life into my Scouting life. Just about everywhere we are forced to be PC because we don’t want to offend & for peace sake I go along doing my best to love the sinner, because I am a sinner too. But there has to be some places where for better or worse those who are of a like mind can assemble without have to accept something they do not agree with.

      • You CAN have this! In communist countries, if you don’t believe and abide by the rules you are imprisoned or put to death. Doesn’t sound like much of an inclusive sort of scouting community built on brotherhood, but I do suppose it is achievable…

        But, I don’t know if all of scouting is so “like minded”. I’ve seen some pretty strange stuff in my years in Scouting.

        • Fred Cooper // May 24, 2013 at 9:11 pm //

          Some of us are seeing pretty “strange” stuff right now and expect to see more.

      • Mark, I agree with some of your points. I don’t like to be around people that find no sin in their own lives. We all have faults, and those that think themselves perfect are tiresome.

        I also agree that sexuality should be left to discussion of families. It’s not the place of the BSA to bring this up. By removing a ban on gay boys, we are heading in that direction. The next step is to remove the ban on gay leaders. With no distinction between gay members at all, there will be no need to bring it up.

        • Fred Cooper // May 25, 2013 at 8:43 am //

          As so many of the pro-policy people have posted, BSA was crawling with homosexuals and has been since Brownsea Island and Gilwell Field in England and we did not have to openly accept it as normal as is the case with the new policy.

          It seems that worked very well. But just like all other organization homosexuals have forced themselves into, they want other adults to accept them openly and without reserve a policy. After a couple of years, you folks will get your wish. BSA Leadership has already proven they have a spine of linguini so to protect money and save legal fees they will capitulate.

        • Hi Fred- it is interesting that you bring it up. You wrote: “BSA was crawling with homosexuals and has been since Brownsea Island and Gilwell Field in England”. There is the long-standing theory that Baden-Powell was a repressed homosexual and that his best friend Kenneth McLaren may have been “less repressed”. So yeah, it is quite possible homosexuals have been with us from the very beginning.

        • Fred Cooper // May 25, 2013 at 10:26 am //

          What an insulting thing to say about Baden-Powell. You should retract it immediately as it is unproven and baseless. Men could be friends in those days and not attracted sexually. its called male-bonding. If you’re a man, you should try it.

          Homosexuals try to glom on to any great historical figure to increase acceptance and teach it to children. Some are proven, some are not. In BP’s case, it certainly is not,

        • Well – I don’t think its baseless. Some of it is pure speculation based on how we stereotype homosexuality today: Baden-Powell liked to put on musicals. He’d dress in drag. He didn’t sleep in the same room as his wife. His relationship with McLaren. The strongest evidence was his own writing after viewing and admiring photos of boys skinny dipping. Do we know? Of course not. Does it matter? Not to me.

        • Fred Cooper // May 25, 2013 at 11:50 am //

          Then why bring it up and provide “evidence” that you believe supports your theory? Obviously it matters to you. Go ahead. admit it.

        • Trenton Spears // May 25, 2013 at 12:27 pm //

          db Great Kudus to Baden Powell for over 106 years he has given the opportunity for the youth of the world to be a member of the greatist charector and value building organization the Boy Scouts. This is quite a legacy that is unmatched in the history of the world. For the last 13 years the homosexual movement have tried to change the suucess of Baden Powell even refering him to to favor homosexuality in his mission of Scouting. It is simply not true. The BSA National Board has imbarked on a mission to distroy Baden Powells mission for the last 100+ years. They betrayed the trust of the people on the front lines the Volunteers of Scouting. Their 60% voice’s on May 23rd became silent after months of expressing their views through written surveys to leave the policy as it is no homosexuals in Scouting. I believe that Wayne Brock was elected the top executive of the BSA to change the policy of no homosexuals in scouting this was his mission and his personal desire. db I read my local paper the Bakersfield Californian and in some of the comments from the article was from Rich Ferraro of GLAAD said he will continue to discourage corperations from giving to the Boy Scouts till they lift the ban on adult homosexuals. Funding was the primary reason the BSA National Board voted to partially remove the ban. It looks like the mission was not accomplished and the vote was wasted and it has become the greatist blunder in the history of the BSA. I can hear Baden Powell say do you miss me yet. I say yes Baden we certainly do. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

  77. Apparently the BSA has decided it would rather have the approval of the media and politically correct rather than maintain a system of values and morality. Better change the Scout oath and laws to correlate to your new-found “standards”.
    Oh, and better get used to a much reduced membership since you have opted for the approval of “the world”. Anyone who continues in the BSA after this decision should be ashamed.

  78. Bob Smith // May 24, 2013 at 1:15 pm // Reply

    Vote with your feet. Don’t join organizations you disagree with. Leave organizations who change you now disagree with. Let the 200,000-300,000 membership loss begin. If the 1400 voting membership is out of touch of us Scouters – let them find out quickly.

  79. Nancy Grossman // May 24, 2013 at 3:01 pm // Reply

    I am saddened to see the snarky level that this conversation has sunk to on this site–other times this issue has been discussed here, the tone has been much more respectful throughout more of the comments–just about the only place on the Internet where that was true in regards to this topic.

    I am greatly relieved that this policy has been changed, at least for the boys. A bit ironic that Venturers can be “gay and OK” (not to mention female) till they are 21, but gay Scouts are given the boot three years earlier.

    I am glad that BSA has re-committed to serving ALL boys–that is exactly where the focus should be. Some of those boys are too young to even know they are gay–they should no longer have to face expulsion when they figure it out.

    I imagine that someday the old policy will feel as dated as Jim Crow laws–which used to be defended just as passionately, with similar arguments. Scouting values (should) have nothing to do with discrimination. Thank you to our National Council.

    • “I am greatly relieved that this policy has been changed, at least for the boys. A bit ironic that Venturers can be “gay and OK” (not to mention female) till they are 21, but gay Scouts are given the boot three years earlier.”

      As far as I know, Venturers did not have a waiver.

      If you do not understand that allowing homosexuals in the BSA opens the door to militant activism and flamboyant behavior, then you are a bit nieve. These are reasons why my wife and I avoid assiciating with it in our personal lives and chose scouting as a safe place to participate with our children.

      You may be fine with that kind of behavior, but we do not. Look at what the GSA have become…………..

      • Nancy Grossman // May 24, 2013 at 8:21 pm // Reply

        I watched yesterday’s press conference (on scouting.org), and I recall that it was said that Venture Scouts “age out” at 21, and I believe that meant that they can be “out” and stay in Scouting until then.

        Hmm, I was a Girl Scout, and I recall nothing unusual in the girls and women around me.

        As for “militant activism and flamboyant behavior”, the gays and lesbians I know, at any age, tend to go about their lives like everyone else. In my experience, activism and flamboyance have a lot more to do with personality and social conscience than sexual orientation–like some of those Loud-Mouthed Mother-Scouters (oops, count me as one).

        As for the “gay agenda” I keep hearing about–if demanding to be treated as an equal is an agenda, well….bring it on. That’s the kind of “agenda” that Scouting should wholeheartedly support.

    • Bob Basement // May 24, 2013 at 4:19 pm // Reply

      Lot of angry folks……

  80. Trenton Spears // May 24, 2013 at 4:52 pm // Reply

    DB says excellent analysis? You’re kidding, right? That was nothing but speculation and supposition.
    DB Please check the facts and then form an opinion. Where is your analysis? Trenton Spears

  81. SM/CM-b'more // May 24, 2013 at 5:38 pm // Reply

    It appears to be strange and inconsistent that the 1400 voting members of the National Council, who are all VOLUNTEERS and are supposed to represent their home councils and regions, voted against the wishes of those they represent. They received a Membership Standards Review Voting Member Information Packet which is available here: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/MembershipStandards/310-561_WB.pdf and shows that the majority of parents, Charter Organizations, Councils, and Volunteers (though not youth) oppose the change. The Packet also shows that most councils/regions report that they would see a reduction in both funding and membership if the change were to go into effect.
    If the volunteer members who have voting power in the National Council don’t represent their areas, they shouldn’t be representing their councils or regions and there needs to be a reconsideration of how these members are chosen.

    • Bill Sharp // May 25, 2013 at 10:08 am // Reply

      I have sent a request to my Council’s Executive to respond on who represented us and how they voted and the reply will be reflected in my future FOS. This is not a “Secret Organization”. It just doesn’t work that way.

  82. New program on the horizon. Those who would like to participate in a new program starting up, please go to faithbasedboys.org. This group will be spear headed by American Heritage Girls which is a faith based girls scouting program. “When the Enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of God will raise a standard against him!” (Isaiah 59:19)

    • Thanks, Kimberly. I’m keeping an eye on OnMyHonor.net, too. When the BSA voted to abandon their core principles, they voted to abandon us. We’ll look for better alternatives or go it on our own. (Until the rabid minority take those options away, too, of course. I simply can’t understand why they choose to define “tolerance” as “destroy groups with which we disagree” rather than simply forming or their own group, live, and let live. Alas.)

      • Nancy Grossman // May 24, 2013 at 8:31 pm // Reply

        Keep in mind that a majority of Scouts who were surveyed supported repealing the ban–which doesn’t sound like a rabid minority to me, just a bunch of kids who probably know gay kids who are no better or worse than the next kid. As usual, our young people are way out ahead of so many of the rest of us in terms of social conscience.

        Last I looked, a majority of Americans in a number of different surveys said they support gay marriage (and likely gays in Boy Scouts, too)–the times are changing. It wasn’t that long ago that African-Americans were excluded from an awful lot of places, too–just for being, um, who they are.

      • Trenton Spears // May 24, 2013 at 9:06 pm // Reply

        Bob Osipov Here is a fact. Less than 5% of the Scouts Nationally ever make the Eagle Scout rank that means the rest of the other scouts accomplishments are just for memory. I did not make Eagle when I was a scout so I do have a lot of good memories and I believe why I returned to scouting was a result of my experiences as a youth. If on my return to be a scout leader I would have to accept homosexuality as a condition of my membership it would be contrary to what I have been taught in my in my youth scouting membership and I would not be a scout Leader today. I believe more scouters have become Leaders because of the values that scouting has represented over the years not the political nonsence that is going on now. Trenton Spears

        • Bob Basement // May 24, 2013 at 10:30 pm //

          Your going to need to site your source sir.

          About 7 percent of all Boy Scouts earned the Eagle Scout rank in 2012.
          Source: 2012 BSA Local Council Index

          I believe that number was 56,000 something……..

          Our council produce 350 alone…..

        • Yes, very true, Mr. Spears. I quite scout after Cubs because I found camping and hiking more exciting than going to meetings. My boys, though, wanted to join scouting so we’re involved again. When I informed my boys of the result of the vote they said they’re no longer interested in Boy Scouts so we’ll be on our own unless the OnMyHonor folks or some other, similar outfit decides to take up the standard in the face of the barbarian hordes.

        • It’s rather offensive to refer to others as barbarians simply because you disagree with them on an issue. Gay people and those straight allies that wish for equality for their fellow man aren’t bad people. They simply have a different opinion about certain things than you have.

        • Trenton Spears // May 25, 2013 at 9:08 pm //

          Beth have you no shame as it is your mission to twist comments to suit your agenda. I have never referred to Homosexuals as barbarians. They are my sisters and brothers in Gods creation, Earth. We are all sinners and all will be judged by the bar of Jehovah me, you and everyone else yes even homosexual scouts. The difference is that some know it as sin and will repent and some do know and refuse to repent of sin. For those who do not know it there will be opportunities to overcome their trangressions it is called Christianity and a belief in God. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • It’s ok to call people that you disagree with names… (unless its a person who believes in equality calling their opponent ‘homophobic’). I apparently have no shame because I find that offensive. (I haven’t twisted a thing). This conversation is beyond preposterous. I’m through here. The vote went the way I hoped it would. No need for me to continue to bang my head against the wall. Everyone have a great day/night/life. :-)

      • Check your facts, Nancy: 60% of scouts and scouters said they wanted to maintain the ban. Even the packet handed to the EC admitted that. By just about every respectable poll, including that by the CDC, only 3% of the country is gay. That’s a pretty small minority to force the rest to not only tolerate but support and laud their lifestyle choice. I wonder what fraction of our society choose to be murderers – if it’s near 3% should we let them change our moral codes, too? You say kids are ahead of us in accepting gays and that may be true. They’re naive and subject to constant bombardment by pro-gay propaganda. That’s why families and, until Thursday, Scouting was so important. Kids have to be taught values and YouTube is not the place to get them. Your comparison of gay “rights” with racism is laughable. Race is not a choice.

        And you still (well, not you alone but “you” in the collective sense) have still not explained why it was so crucial to change the Boy Scouts rather just join a unit with which you agreed. Why not live and let live?

        • Nancy Grossman // May 27, 2013 at 6:51 pm //

          My understanding is that a majority of SCOUTS, as well as younger adults, support(ed) repealing the ban.

          Why change the policy? Because it is a matter of, in some cases, actual survival for gay and questioning youth. There is no way we can pretend that having an anti-gay policy doesn’t lead at least some of our Scouts (not to mention adults) to treat gay youth poorly, wherever they may come across them. Bullying behavior and being looked at and treated as “less than” helps lead a whopping 40-some percent of gay youth to attempt suicide (just google it for more info). And, no matter what you may think of being gay, any policy that pushes even one kid to feel that degree of despair is, in my book, absolutely wrong and needs to be flushed out as soon as possible. What if this kid were your own son or daughter?

          I can’t agree that someone near me being gay can be compared in any way to a murderer. The latter person actually hurts other people. I cannot claim to be hurt in any way by having gay people around me.

          What pains me most about all this is that we are talking about KIDS. Why anyone would seek to shame children for being who they are is beyond me–and yes, being gay is not a lifestyle “choice” for most–it’s who they are.

          I am not sure if “just join a unit with which you agreed” means to go to another organization or that BSA should have passed the “each troop decides its own policy” policy. If the former, I absolutely don’t have the time or energy to start another organization. If the latter, it is because of what I said above: that policies like this put gay youth at risk of harassment and cruel behavior from others, which is exactly what Scouting should stand up against.

        • Fred Cooper // May 28, 2013 at 8:20 am //

          I’ve seen this argument start to appear in the media here and overseas about the policy saving lives by preventing suicide. It is a ridiculous argument to make. It is extremely unlikely that a youth will commit suicide because he can’t join Scouts. Publik School is where the bullying etc. take place, not Scouting, however, I have been told on this list that any teasing is bullying. PC run amuck!

        • Nancy Grossman // May 30, 2013 at 7:13 pm //

          Fred–the point is not that kids will attempt suicide if they can’t join Scouts (an idea I find as preposterous as you do), the point is that policies like these add to a climate of hostility, bullying, and outright hatred in school and society. Just read some of the comments on this blog! Teens are prone to depression. Teens attempt suicide. A large percentage of gay or questioning teens attempt suicide, even if it is “only” once (once might be all it takes). While it is impossible to find out the reasons for each and every kid who does this (some of them are dead, after all), we can certainly imagine (and data supports) that the more poorly you are treated by others and the less accepted you are, the more depressed you might be, and the more likely you might impulsively try something extreme. Bullying and suicide is not just a problem of gay youth, but a policy like the old one screams “you’re dirt!” And saying, “Well, we just don’t approve of your lifestyle” doesn’t really make the whole thing any prettier. It’s only a slightly more polite way of saying, “You’re dirt.”

        • Fred Cooper // May 30, 2013 at 8:32 pm //

          There are 2,000,000 Scouts and it not a cool thing to be and the Scouts in my Troop tell me a lot of kids think Scouts are “gay” anyway. I just don’t see where excluding a sexual lifestyle would create depression so bad the youth would want to commit suicide? Much more likely non-acceptance by his “cool” friends causes serious depression as has been proven many times. In my opinion the idea that homosexual exclusion even “may” cause suicide is a serious overreach and misdirects away fron the real problem, nonacceptance by popular secular youth and overemphasis on MTV culture in youth today..

        • Nancy Grossman // May 30, 2013 at 10:13 pm //

          Again, the point is not “exclusion” from Scouting–the point is that the old policy is a reflection of how much some people hate/disapprove of gays (choose whichever verb fits each situation). If we were talking about just one organization with an exclusionary policy in the midst of an otherwise accepting and welcoming societal climate–no big deal, but I don’t know ANYWHERE in the country/world where that is true, even in the most liberal areas. Many places a gay person can still reasonably expect to get beat up for being “out.” Not unlike being black not all that long ago.

          The way to try to understand what a gay kid might go through in this society is to try to put yourself in their shoes, particularly if they live in a part of the country that is less accepting. Imagine that you are trying to figure out your sexuality, you might not be all that thrilled to find out how “different” you are, you know that there are people around who will shun you if you even mention that you might not be what they consider “normal” in terms of your sexuality. Maybe you are already a shy or awkward kid, or maybe you are a popular kid but know you will lose most of your friends if you come out. Maybe other kids already think you are a little odd, or already call you “gay”–still a slur in most middle and high schools in this country. Maybe the slurs advance to outright tormenting (one young boy–I think he was 11–killed himself in this area recently because other kids in his school were bullying him because they thought he was gay; another young girl did the same because she was relentlessly bullied for being romantically involved with the wrong guy and got a ton of crap for it)–kids can be VERY mean. Stir in some heated adult debates (and mud-slinging) about, say, gay marriage, or gays in Scouting. Many kids are rejected by their families as well, which is why gay kids sometimes end up homeless.

          I recall MY adolescence (admittedly, I did not have the advantage of being in Boy Scouts) as being distinctly lacking in much self-esteem, which is what I see lacking in many teens–even though I grew out of it by the time I reached adulthood. How can this kind of condemnation and potential loss of family and friends not make a kid feel pretty darned bad about himself a lot of the time? It would take someone who was a monument of self-assurance to not feel like crap on a regular basis, particularly if they live in a very conservative area where the gay “lifestyle” is regularly lambasted. Feeling like crap/feeling unloved can easily lead to depression, which is a risk factor for suicide. Its the third most common cause of death in adolescents. This is from the Boston Children’s Hospital website: “Children and adolescents often consider suicide because they feel so overwhelmed and hopeless that they can’t imagine things getting better.” From statisticbrain.com: Percent of students grades 9-12 who reported seriously considering suicide:16 %. Percent of youth suicide deaths that are males: 81 %. Annual number of youth (age 10-24) who receive medical care for self-inflicted injuries: 157,000. Annual number of youth suicides each year (ages 10-24): 4,600.

          Is it clear yet that there is a problem? Clearly, these stats cover lots of kids with different problems, and certainly they are not all gay. But it is also certainly a critical public-health issue.

          And who is standing up for these kids? Many other kids would become targets of bullying themselves if they defended a kid who is being picked on in this way. A lot of the adults in this forum sound like they wouldn’t stand up for a gay kid who was being bullied, either, although maybe that is just my interpretation–I would be happy if it were inaccurate.

        • db //