BSA membership resolution passes with more than 60 percent of vote

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After an extensive discussion within the organization, the Boy Scouts of America’s approximately 1,400 volunteer voting members chose to adopt the membership policy resolution and remove the restriction denying membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation alone.

The final vote breakdown was 61.44 percent for the proposal, and 38.56 percent against. The change takes effect Jan. 1, 2014.

Voting results were tabulated and certified by TrueBallot, an independent, third-party voting firm.

Read more at this site, or find the full text of the BSA’s official media statement below:

For 103 years, the Boy Scouts of America has been a part of the fabric of this nation, with a focus on working together to deliver the nation’s foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

Based on growing input from within the Scouting family, the BSA leadership chose to conduct an additional review of the organization’s long-standing membership policy and its impact on Scouting’s mission. This review created an outpouring of feedback from the Scouting family and the American public, from both those who agree with the current policy and those who support a change.

Today, following this review, the most comprehensive listening exercise in Scouting’s history the approximate 1,400 voting members of the Boy Scouts of America’s National Council approved a resolution to remove the restriction denying membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation alone. The resolution also reinforces that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting. A change to the current membership policy for adult leaders was not under consideration; thus, the policy for adults remains in place. The BSA thanks all the national voting members who participated in this process and vote.

This policy change is effective Jan. 1, 2014, allowing the Boy Scouts of America the transition time needed to communicate and implement this policy to its approximately 116,000 Scouting units.

The Boy Scouts of America will not sacrifice its mission, or the youth served by the movement, by allowing the organization to be consumed by a single, divisive, and unresolved societal issue. As the National Executive Committee just completed a lengthy review process, there are no plans for further review on this matter.

While people have different opinions about this policy, we can all agree that kids are better off when they are in Scouting. Going forward, our Scouting family will continue to focus on reaching and serving youth in order to help them grow into good, strong citizens. America’s youth need Scouting, and by focusing on the goals that unite us, we can continue to accomplish incredible things for young people and the communities we serve.

1,432 thoughts on “BSA membership resolution passes with more than 60 percent of vote

  1. As a Paramedic, I pass judgement on any of my patients. I treat them with care and respect no matter the age, sex or sexual orientation. Where did I first learn to be so accepting? During my time as a Boy Scout. Now that is a timeless value.

  2. You know, I was going to comment on some of these posts but at (currently) 556 posts, I really don’t think there is much more to be said. This issue was a “d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don’t boondoggle from the start. I had some comments for those who feel that the BSA has “lost it’s moral compass” and is no longer worthy to be an organization that they will charter but going back over the thread, I realized that all the usual arguments had already been posted! I’m saddened by this attitiude, particularly because the ones that this decision will affect are the boys in
    these units. They will be the ones denied the benefits of Scouting and yes, I am one that believes that Scouting is THE best program for young boys and teens.
    I am an ASM with our troop and as I look into their eyes and see that enthusiasm for adventure, the desire to learn new skills, and the pride and sense of accomplishment of a job well done, a new rank or merit badge earned, I think to myself, “Thank God for Scouting!”
    Rather than immediately deciding to abandon Scouting, I would ask those Scouters who are actively considering doing just that solely on the basis of this vote to stop, take a deep breath and think back on everything that you know about and have experienced with Scouting. Think also upon the boys who’s lives you have touched. How many of them may have had their lives changed for the better because of a “gentle nudge” or maybe a “life lesson” learned as a scout?
    Now think about the boys in your unit, who will be there to be an adult role model? If you are willing to quit over a single issue with which you disagree….then, okay. You are standing by your principles and I won’t fault you for that. For the sake of today’s youth however, I would ask you to step back and look at the entire picture and reconsider. We need your experience and your dedication to our youth. Please don’t make any decisions in haste. (Well, I guess I DID have a few things to say after all!)

    • Steve, I appreciate your well-written and earnest appeal for those who do disagree with the homosexual acceptance policy. I think you are a Scouter in every sense of the word and committed to Scouting.

      I can only speak for myself, but in my opinion, Scouting leadership left a very clear message that the young parents and immature Scouts of the program are far more important that experienced adults involved in the Program. At very step of their presentation they pointed this fact out. Experienced adult Scouters are heavily opposed this decision and for me it is based on being a mentor to young Scouts to support them in the Program as they learn and grow in Scouting to support themselves and others. That role is no longer important for Scouting national leadership. We do not conform to the paradim of “scouting for all” as represented by an organization of the same name.

      I feel I have been given my marching orders and I intend to carry them out and get out of the way if I can no longer serve and honor the principles I live by.

      Ole Bob has it the way BSA wants it. “We’ll get by with what is left and the money will be much better now.”

      • “…the money will be much better now.” If I were the National Council voting members, I would have thought twice before accepting those 30 pieces of silver.

    • “… that his calling as a Christian, to leave his selfishness behind, to enter what Saint Paul calls the glorious liberty of the children of God, implies the just use of his sexual powers: to give, if God calls him, his body and his heart forever to the woman he loves. That won’t teach him how to pitch a tent in the woods. It might teach him how to build a home in a wasteland.” –Anthony Esolen

      See full essay at: http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/04/9970/

      • >>>>See full essay at: http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/04/9970/

        This overly-sappy essay is built entirely on two false ideas:
        1) the idea that homosexual/gay men naturally seek to have sex with young boys, and
        2) the idea that boys become homosexual/gay by being the victims of pedophiles.

        Neither of these things are true.

        Men who are sexually interested in young boys are called “pedophiles”, not “homosexuals” or “gays”. “Homosexual” or “gay” men are attracted to other men of a similar age to themselves, in the same way that heterosexual men are attracted to women of a similar age to themselves. No one here, and no one at the BSA – no one – is advocating that pedophiles – men who are sexually interested in young boys – should be Scout leaders.

        If you listen to actual gay men talk about their lives, you will find that they did not “become gay” by being molested by pedophiles. This is a myth.

        No one here is OK with boys being molested by pedophiles. It is completely unacceptable behavior on the part of the predator, which can have life-long ramifications for the boy victim. But those ramifications do not include turning the boy gay.

        In addition, pedophiles can be anywhere – in church, in school, in sports, in the community. Barring homosexual men from any of these venues will not protect boys from pedophiles.

        • I’m not sure how you interpreted the essay the way you did. Despite your incorrect interpretation, you are entitled to your opinion.

        • John, I think the technique EagleMom used to reach her “interpretation” is called reading. (All the words, not just the short ones.)

        • EagleMom,
          I’d like to address your comment:
          “Men who are sexually interested in young boys are called “pedophiles”, not “homosexuals” or “gays”. “Homosexual” or “gay” men are attracted to other men of a similar age to themselves, in the same way that heterosexual men are attracted to women of a similar age to themselves. No one here, and no one at the BSA – no one – is advocating that pedophiles – men who are sexually interested in young boys – should be Scout leaders.”
          This is actually a misdirection. I will assume that it is being done in ignorance (at least on your part). The LGBT community very spcifically uses the P-word because there are numerous scientific studies debunking any link between homosexuality and pedophilia. The misdirection comes in the use of that term. It has a very specific definition in these scientific studies, and this discussion on Scouting is not about pedophilia at all. Pedophilia is very specifically an attraction to prepubescent children – pre puberty – typically younger than 11 years old.
          They specifically ignore the terms hebephile (11 to 14 year old boys) and ephebophiles (15-16 year old boys) who are the mojority of the Scouting age boys who would be in the camping situation the discussion is centered around. At these ages, the situation changes pretty drastically, particularly towards the upper age ranges. As a matter of fact, the attraction to older teenage or teenage looking young men is much more common in homosexual men (not much different than older young women in the heterosexual mentality – the “Lolita” syndrome. In this case, though, it would be the “twink” syndrome.
          This is the concern many of us have. I admit, I have few concerns about Cub Scout age boys in the situation. My real concern is young teenage males who are just exploring and have little idea who they are. And there have been studies linking early sexualization to homosexuality – not suggesting that it is the cause, but that in some cases, young men who have been affected have developed some feelings that they are not worthy of normal relationships.
          My point behind this is just to identify there’s a lot more to this subjest than some simple black and white terms, and it is way beyond the politics of acceptance.

        • Good grief; I learn something new every day. I have never even heard the terms “hebophile” and “ephebophile”. “Pedophilia” is being used here as it is applied in common usage; as Merriam-Webster says: “sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object.” Children in my book is anyone under the age of 18; i.e., not an adult. I don’t think there are even any laws on the books that use the other two terms, as sexual abuse of children (anyone under 18) is wrong at any age.

          The point is–everyone needs to be alert for inappropriate behavior. Sometimes it is even from some so-called “upstanding” member of the community. The research I have read says that it is self-identified heterosexual men who are most likely to abuse under-age boys, so I disagree with “Concerned”‘s conclusions. But two-deep policies and other youth-protection policies are in place for very good reasons. Yes, teen boys can be predators too, especially if they have been sexually abused themselves. But, again, these are often boys who, statistically, will tend to identify as straight.

        • EagleMom,
          “The research I have read says that it is self-identified heterosexual men who are most likely to abuse under-age boys, so I disagree with “Concerned”‘s conclusions” – again, you are pulling from material that discusses young children – not older teens. When researchers publish a paper or study, they have to be very specific. Regardless of what Merriam Webster says common usage includes, that has nothing to do with academia and scientific world. You may choose to consider a pedophile as an adult who has relations with anyone under 18, but that is not the case – particularly with these studies. Research the topic for yourself. Don’t take my word for it.
          Think about it. Again, 15 year old young men are in many cases different from adult men only mentally. A young man who is 19 could easily be attracted to a 15 or 16 year old young women, and while technically illegal, many people wouldn’t share the feeling that it is wrong – particularly if the relationship started before the older turned 18. Consider the story of Kaitlyn Hunt in Florida. She’s an 18 year old lesbian who started a relationship (yes, it was sexual) with a 14 year old girl. She is being prosecuted, but the ACLU, numerous LGBT groups and a large body of people are protesting the prosecution. This is exactly the type of case I am talking about. What happens when this is two young people in a Scout troop?

        • “But, again, these are often boys who, statistically, will tend to identify as straight.” This is completely false and a mischaracterization.

        • Concerned About Scouts
          Yes the terms hebephilia and ephebophilia exist but are not commonly used. The information below from this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia

          Because mid-to-late adolescents usually have physical characteristics near (or in some cases, identical) to that of full-grown adults, most men can find persons in this age group sexually attractive.[6] Ephebophilia is used only to describe the preference for mid-to-late adolescent sexual partners, not the mere presence of some level of sexual attraction. Generally, the preference is not regarded by psychologists as a pathology when it does not interfere with other major areas of one’s life, and is not listed by name as a mental disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR), the ICD-10, or as a paraphilia. However, the preference can sometimes be diagnosed as a disorder if it results in dysfunction or exploitative behavior, under the DSM specification 309.2, “Paraphilia Not Otherwise Specified.”[13]

          Researchers state that hebephilia, erotic interest which centers on pubescents, has not come into widespread use, even among professionals who work with sex offenders, and may have been confused with the term ephebophilia, “which denotes men who prefer adolescents around 15–19 years of age.”[2] It is concluded that “few would want to label erotic interest in late — or even mid — adolescents as a psychopathology, so the term hebephilia may have been ignored along with ephebophilia.”[2]

          It is interesting to note that neither term is found in the DSM -IV-TR.

        • You are right – both terms are not common. “few would want to label erotic interest in late — or even mid — adolescents as a psychopathology,” – this is a very key point in the discussion with Scouting. All of the research bandied about showing homosexuality has no more, if not less predilection to pedophilia are talking about cub scout age boys, not older teens, which is where the fuss is. The LGBT community throws up that research as a smokescreen. Yet the reality is that a higher percentage of homosexual men are inclined toward young men in their teens – more often later teens. Research done by Michael Baily (professor at Northwestern University), Douglas Kenrick of ASU, and others have shown a much higher interest in these Varsity and Venturing age young men. There’s a whole slang associated with the phenomenon – twinks.
          The language is important in this case to understand the risk we would be exposing our young men to.

        • Could you post a link to those studies?

          Seems to need some clarification on age. Of the homosexual men that are interested in Varsity/Venturing aged Scouts that is. What was the “age” in the studies that defined “homosexual men”?

          Since Venture Scouts can be up to age 21 there does not seem to be an issue with age. Of course the BSA says that premarital sex is not appropriate for any Scout regardless of age. There are four years where a Venture Scout would be of age.

          There is no “Twink” syndrome since it is a slang term and not a medical term.

          “It has a very specific definition in these scientific studies, and this discussion on Scouting is not about pedophilia at all. Pedophilia is very specifically an attraction to prepubescent children – pre puberty – typically younger than 11 years old.
          They specifically ignore the terms hebephile (11 to 14 year old boys) and ephebophiles (15-16 year old boys) who are the mojority of the Scouting age boys who would be in the camping situation the discussion is centered around.”

          In the above quote you were misleading in your comments. The terms hebephile and ephebophile are not used medically and therefore would not likely be used in scientific studies.

          http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/hebephilia
          http://journals.lww.com/jonmd/Abstract/2012/06000/Hebephilia_and_the_Construction_of_a_Fictitious.8.aspx

    • I appreciate your concern for the boys but the point that you are making is this: “If you decide to make a decision on principle you are hurting the boys that need scouting.” I do not agree. 1) We are teaching the boys about integrity and that sometimes life requires that tough decisions are made that initially feel unfair to you but none-the-less, to be a man of integrity, you must be willing to give up self to stand for God and for the very American Spirit that the OLD BSA once stood so firmly on (Old BSA = the BSA prior to May 22, 2013.) 2) There are other Scouting opportunities existing today and definitely another Scouting opportunity that is in the works, being led by an Eagle Scout who is a man of honor. So in fact, to decide to leave the BSA over this issue, standing on principle and with integrity, in fact opens you up to serving and being served as a Scout in the New Scouting organization that will emerge victoriously out of the this mess that one minority political interest group, who is bent on robbing Americans of free thought and belief, created. The Old BSA was attacked and defeated. Those of us who survived the carnage of the attack must leave the battle field, set off for new uncharted territory, and know we WILL emerge victorious in our New Scouting Organization. Americans, both homosexual and straight, have a right to exist according to their ideas of “Pursuing happiness.” The homosexual militant group had every freedom to pursue creating a Scouting organization that they could agree with. But now it is up to the true American Pilgrims to emerge with a New Scouting Organization that in my opinion will outshine the BSA 1000 times over because we agree with the right of all Americans to pursue happiness as we see fit. The Militant homosexual political machine instead sought to attack the BSA, a private organization who won their right to decide their membership policy at the Supreme Court level, because Militant Homosexuals do not believe in the principles of America – that we ALL have a right to pursue happiness as we see fit. Militant homosexuals will not stop until it is a hate crime to believe the Bible opposes homosexuality. That is the fact! Well, we do NOT have to agree with each other morally or spiritually to be Americans. Legislating morality is wrong in my opinion, and that is a message to BOTH sides of this issue of homosexuality.

      • @Kathy -
        Some folks simply feel that it’s wrong to take a boy who’s been a good kid and active in Scouts for 6 or 7 years, and kick him out simply because of his *thoughts* (not actions). We do not kick these boys out of our churches, our sports teams, our 4H clubs, or our schools. We feel it would be inappropriate, counterproductive, and even un-Biblical to do so.

        If you join a new Scouting organization, or any other youth activity, you may want to think carefully about whether expecting tween boys to withdraw from the activity because of their *thoughts* is a realistic or effective. You may also want to think about whether the group is being consistent and applying this approach to other sinful thoughts and/or actions, including inappropriate heterosexual thoughts.

        The BSA has a lot to offer. Extending grace and friendship to a handful of boys who have thoughts of same-sex attraction isn’t going to sink the ship.

        • EagleMom, I see your passion for the scouts and your passion for the right of people to think freely. What you miss, however, is that these boys and their families joined an organization knowing what the membership policy was. They took an oath to uphold the BSA principles. They were free to leave or simply never join if they could not agree with those principles they agreed to make a oath to abide by. That is why we are leaving the Scouts and forming a new Scouting group where the membership policy will be clear. No one forced these boys to join Scouts. No one forced them to share their sexual preference. They chose to do so knowing that to do so was against the Oath they took and against the membership policy at the time. That in an of itself is dishonorable behavior and should not be encouraged. This in fact is exactly why the Militant Homosexual Political Machine sought to change the membership policy. Why join a group whose membership policy you don’t agree with? Form your own group and make a policy you can agree with. That is the American Way.

        • @Kathy –
          >>>>EagleMom, I see your passion for the scouts and your passion for the right of people to think freely.

          Thank you. I see that you also have a passion for the Scouting Movement, and what it has to offer our sons and other boys in the community.

          >>>>What you miss, however, is that these boys and their families joined an organization knowing what the membership policy was. They took an oath to uphold the BSA principles. They were free to leave or simply never join if they could not agree with those principles they agreed to make a oath to abide by. That is why we are leaving the Scouts and forming a new Scouting group where the membership policy will be clear.

          The membership policy of the BSA was clear, but the issue arose nonetheless. It’s impossible to identify kids who will grow to be gay teens, when they are only 7 or 8 years old, so you can exclude them before they and their families join and invest years in Scouting. Which means regardless of how clear the policy is, you will end up with teens and tweens in your new organization who are struggling with the issue – teens and tweens who have spent many years in the group. And you will be right back where you started.

          >>>>No one forced these boys to join Scouts.

          I would assume that the majority of gay boys who are in Scouts joined when they were 7 or 8, long before they had any sexual feelings one way or the other.

          >>>>No one forced them to share their sexual preference. They chose to do so knowing that to do so was against the Oath they took and against the membership policy at the time.

          In many of the cases I’ve read about, the boy himself was *not* open about his sexual preference during Scouting activities. It was due to involvement in activities outside of Scouting that his sexual preference was assumed.

          >>>>Why join a group whose membership policy you don’t agree with?

          Because many of these boys have family roots in Scouting, parents who are involved in Scouting, and even siblings who are Scouts. Because their friends from school, church, sports, and other activities are in Scouts. Because Scouting is part of their church and their community. Because they enjoy all that Scouting has to offer. Because they feel they have something to contribute to the Scouting Movement. And because use for many of these boys, the membership policy was a non-issue when they joined, 6-10 years or more before it became a personal issue for them.

          >>>>Form your own group and make a policy you can agree with. That is the American Way.

          Or advocate for change from within the organization, and encourage pressure from outside the organization, which is what happened in this case. That is also the American Way.

      • I just have to say, this decision was not made by “Militant Homosexuals,” as there are, technically, no gays in Scouting. It was made by men and women of conscience who could no longer bear to watch fellow human beings be discriminated against by an organization we love, just for being true to themselves. Many of us believe that the God of our understanding abhors discrimination in any form……thus, the change in policy. I understand that the God of your understanding takes a somewhat harsher view of the situation–on this we will agree to disagree. We each much listen to that “still, small voice within” and act on what we hear.

        • Nancy Grossman The facts are that large corporations threatening to pull their support from the BSA is the result of militant homosexuals and LGBT influence and I guarantee that the large corporations will still hold up their funds till the BSA votes to allow adult homosexuals in scouting . Please do not assume that there are not any militant homosexuals active in the BSA. Some Eastern Councils have reported that they ignored the ban on homosexuals and allowed adult homosexuals and young scouts to advance regardless of the long time ban. Please don’t assume that the 854 delegates that voted to lift the ban were these sweet little caring for the boys advocates. They voted against the 60% of the parent/ scout leaders survey that did not want the ban lifted. Nancy the BSA has gone down a path of no return and wants the militant homosexuals money they are already in scouting and there will be more to come. They chose quantity over quality not a assuring outcome. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • It’s a good thing we have the 2nd amendment to the constitution so all these Militant Gays can carry their rifles and guns into the offices of corporations and BSA and hold them hostage until we all succumb to their demands. A gay army taking over our country and recruiting our innocent children? This is right-wing crazy talk that would make the Westboro church proud.

        • db you don’t have to carry a weapon to be a militant. If you had a scout meeting and you put a survey to a vote and the majority of the scouts did not want any change in the program would you say to bad forget about the majority I will change it anyway wouldn’t it be considered a hostile decision against the troop. This is what I mean concerning militants. Trenton Spears

  3. Had a really great discussion over this last night with a scouter friend.

    Our conclusion was……

    Sure CO’s will fold their charter
    Sure Scouters will resign over it.
    Sure units will fold.

    But the scout who enjoys scouting will seek out other units.
    The units remaining will be much stronger.

    The couple of scouters and troops that resigned or closed locally were Parlor Troops, no outdoor program and/or very adult led. So the loses were not that great.

    • Decided to stop by and take a break om Memorial Day and spotted this post from Ole Bob so I wanted to respond so folks could hear the other side.

      Glad to see you so easily dismiss committed Scouters leaving the program on Principle. Says a lot.

      I had a not so great conversation with a former Scout who is an ASM in the Troop. He loves supporting the youth leadership as he was supported when he was in Scouting. He has a two sons in Scouting. He is very angry. He does not want to expose his children to that kind of behavior and he does not want to receive training from BSA on how to convince the other Scouts to believe it is normal behavior in youth and we should all just get along with no morals or standards to live by..

      I have never heard the term Parlor Troop but I would think they would be the ones to stay. After all, this will policy is more accepting of a “romper room” mentality.

      We Camp challenging campouts every month. We will still camp challenging campouts every month. Not quite sure it will be called BSA though.

      • Fred I hope you have fun camping in what ever group you put together.

        I simply won’t abandon my boys based on a national decision that probably will not ever impact my unit.

        So for your ASM to have his two sons exposed to gay scouts that would mean that you would have gay scouts in your unit already…and from the tone of your previous post I know that simply isn’t the case. So what is he afraid of???? I am pretty sure that even with the change your unit would send a gay scout to enjoy his scouting elsewhere, rules be darned.

        • Bob, your short sited position is just that….it fails to see the big picture. You think this decision won’t affect your pack? Well apparently you haven’t been listening to the militant homosexual political machine who just stated that they see themselves as the self appointed “watch dogs” of all the charters to “make sure that the official decision is enforced in all charters and packs.” Please stay informed and watch the news. The militant homosexual agenda is to make it a hate crime to oppose their lifestyle in ANY way whether by word or thought. Their agenda is clear. They are not keeping it a secret. Wake UP! And for the record, not every homosexual is a MILITANT homosexual. I am NOT anti-gay. I am just as willing to fight for the right of a homosexual to lead a homosexual lifestyle as I am to fight for the right of a bible believing person to lead a bible believing life style. THAT is what America IS! These militant types HATE AMERICA! The BSA caved to an Anti-America militant group! The new BSA principles render the old BSA principles taught in the program hollow.

        • Kathy thank you for expressing the truth. What is at stake is the future of the BSA. There is not now and never will be enough funding from the Homosexuals left in Scouting to support the program. The BSA’s only hope is that parents, scouts and scouters that have invested their time money and loyalty over the years will not leave the BSA at the present. My personal feeling is that some will stay till their boys no longer want to be a member of the BSA and complete some of their advancements and then the exodus will begin. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • Kathy, as you seem to have unique access to militant agendas, maybe you can enlighten us as to the agenda of Militant Christians. You know, those that insist that the Scout Oath and Law must conform to their interpretation of the teachings of Jesus.

        • Hi Trent :) While I appreciate your remaining hopeful for any future for the New BSA (New BSA = BSA as of May 22, 2013) I do not share your hope. I believe that the 103 year old Organization we all loved died last Wednesday and I am choosing to grieve it and work towards a new Scouting Organization that I believe will be better than ever. It is my sincere hope that people like you, with experience and commitment to serving boy scouts, will join with the new venture because we need people like you.

        • Kathy, we wish you well. If all like-minded people join you in your new endeavor, it will substantially decrease the venom and discord the rest of us will have to work around.

        • It will certainly reduce the venom and discord the folks who dislike the revised Policy will have to go through as well.

          I certainly had a lot of anger the day after the vote and blog lists are good for relieving stress. Yesterday, all gone. As i have said on many threads, Scouting was only one organization I was involved in that served youth in my Church and Community. I now understand better why the young couples in my Church avoid Scouts for more mission-minded organizations.

        • Well said Fred. I too had a rough 5/23-24 after hearing the vote results. I then began to realize that, despite it’s roots, BSA is essentially just a business. Sure, it’s a “non-profit” (that could be changing in some state’s eyes soon), primarily volunteer-run organization. However, the higher-ups are making a ton of salary and benefits (well into the hundreds of thousands and approaching millions of dollars). Just as people patronize other businesses for various consumer/political/moral reasons, they do the same with BSA. Fortunately, as citizens, we still have the First Amendment freedom of expressive association. Those that disagree with the new direction of BSA, but did not have a vote at the National Council may now vote with their feet and money.

        • Oh Mike. I have no venom for anyone. I simply am an American who disagrees with you. See what I mean about the Militant Agenda? To make someone’s opposing beliefs to yours so “evil” is exactly the goal. Like I said, I am not anti-gay. In fact, I don’t even belong to a church although I used to. I don’t agree with any Militant type groups, homosexual, christian, muslum, etc…. Militant groups try to FORCE others into their own personal views. It is that act of forcing that I am against and that I believe is un-American. We all need to learn what TRUE tolerance is. True tolerance allows others to have differing opinions and lifestyles. True tolerance doesn’t join an organization whose membership policy they disagree with and try to change that organization by threat of financial ruin. The homosexual militant political machine attacked the 103 year BSA organization by force and threat of financial ruin. Their behavior in that is shameful. They should have done what we are doing and just start their own organization that they could agree with. That is the American Way! I wish you nothing but goodness Mike. :)

    • Bob Basement explain how the units that remain in the BSA after the lifting of the ban on homosexuals will be stronger after many scout units leave the BSA. Please inlighten me. Trenton Spears

      • Keep grieving Trenton…….

        I don’t know that it will be stronger….

        But the churches who are turning in their charters were not that active at the district level. They meet weekly and camped at resident camp…. So not much of program….

        I hope we pick up some of their youth, which will make our unit stronger

        • Bob, might want to do some outreach to those Scouts. Remind them that the BSA says, “We are unaware of any major religious chartered organization that believes a youth member simply stating he or she is attracted to the same sex, but not engaging in sexual activity, should make him or her unwelcome in their congregation.” Let them meet you and the other Leaders of your troop – maybe hold a parent night in which you address their concerns, or write a letter inviting them and their Scouts to attend a regular troop meeting. Remind them that “Any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.”, and that “No member may use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda.” The kids they meet in Scouts are the same kids they will meet in school, in church, in sports, and in other youth activities.

        • Tried the DE will not give me rosters till their charter has been turned in or expires.

        • Bob Basement. I do know about your Council but our Council doesn’t recharter till December of 2013 so I have know way of knowing the impact of the policy change. I do know in conversations with my local fellow scouters is that there is serious considerations for leaving scouting and the complete disatifaction of the new proposal it will have a huge impact on rechartering of our local council. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • Bob do you agree with this and would you except homosexuals changing the culture in the BSA from the inside.
          From GLAAD.
          The homosexual-rights group GLAAD said it and other like-minded activist groups will now encourage “gay” youth to participate in the Boy Scouts. But spokesman Ross Murray said “the ban on gay adult leaders is still a major barrier for many families and organizations.” He hopes, the Washington Post reported, that as homosexual youth “demonstrate their dedication to the program; hopefully it can change the culture of the organization from the inside.” Bob there on their way. TrentonSpears

        • Bob your comments are divisive you remind me of a vulture waiting around to pick the bones of a tragedy in the BSA. How do you know that Church’s were not that active. If they met once a week and attended a resident camp that is part of the normal function of a Scout unit. With todays economy most units can’t afford to camp once a month so Bob please don’t dismiss these Church units and say that they are not much of a program anyway. Every loss in Scouting is a loss. Those who voted lifting the ban on homosexuals were at best gambling with the future of the BSA. I don’t believe that there are many on Bryans Blog will agree with your comments on Churches and there not much of a program. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • Trenton, if you know units that are not camping once a month because they cannot afford to, you might recommend that they attend some Roundtables and ask what other units are doing in your area. No troop should be kept from camping by cost. Our troop camps almost exclusively in places where it costs nothing to camp. Often we have asked families to bring food, knowing that some of our families could contribute from the garden or from the pantry when they didn’t have money to buy anything. Unemployed moms and dads can hike as well as any other parents. There are adventures within 20 minutes’ drive for almost everyone, if they know where to go. Don’t let cost dictate a once-a-year camp schedule.

        • Karen Zeller Thanks for the great sources for helping scout units I am a Roundtable Commissioner for my District , a Unit Commissioner for troop 2010, Woodbadge trained and Staff member for four Woodbadge Courses. Scoutmaster for my troop. Scoutmaster for the National Jamboree in 2010. District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver recipient. Scout leader for 28 years for Cub and Boys Scouts and a Boy Scout in 1949. I have earned 12 Square Knot awards. Member of the 2013 National Jamboree Staff at the Summit in July. Having said this I am still learning and I never close my mind to suggestions from my fellow Scouters. I love my God and my family and the Boy Scout of America in that order. Karen you sound very positive and a solution solver. Keep up the great work. Sincerely Trenton Spears

  4. A teenage homosexual in a Boy Scout troop will have the same effect if he was camping and showering with members of a Girl scout troop. The Girl Scouts supposedly don’t put up with sexual activities within their organization either. Does anyone really believe there would be no temptation? The leadership of the Boy Scouts will now have to teach young men that homosexual behavior is normal. Morals be damned. It’s all about getting donations from the fat cats who support deviant behavior, and politics – not the boys. From a Boy Scout from the early 1950′s, I don’t blame anyone who defects from this organization.

    • I don’t see anything in the policy or supporting documents that would compel the BSA to teach whether or not homosexual behavior is normal. They clearly state,”The BSA believes parents should decide if, when, and how to discuss matters of sexuality with their kids.” They also make a distinction between same-sex attraction and homosexual behavior. They state, “no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of stating their sexual orientation ALONE, Scouting expects appropriate behavior from all members, which includes sexual conduct, regardless of sexual orientation. … Sexual conduct by any Scout, heterosexual or homosexual, is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.”

      • “The BSA believes parents should decide if, when, and how to discuss matters of sexuality with their kids.”

        Yes, but then BSA goes on to say that an adult homosexual cannot fulfill the Scout obligation to be morally straight. In other words, BSA teaches that homosexual behavior is always immoral. BSA teaches this to Scouts, whether a parent wants their son to hear it or not.

        I do not want BSA teaching my boys about sexuality. That is why they are not in BSA.

      • ”The BSA believes parents should decide if, when, and how to discuss matters of sexuality with their kids.”

        But then BSA goes on to teach that homosexual conduct is always immoral. That is BSA’s basis for excluding gay adults from membership.

        I do not enroll my boys in BSA, because I don’t want BSA to teach my sons about sexuality. BSA lying about what it teaches does not help its case, either.

      • Eaglemom The winds of change are coming and you underestimate the power of the adult homosexual movement or maybe you just don’t care. Anyway let them in scouting and they will overwhelm the organization and the changes most certainly will begin. Look what has happen to the sanctity of marriage. Look what is happening in the school class rooms they are teaching LGBT lifestyles in elementary age and higher grade students. They teach these things without a parents permission and in many cases without the parents knowledge. Many parents are forced to keep their children home when certain teachers endorsing homosexuality content is presented even in skits and plays and homosexual celebrations. Schools are no longer about reading writing or arithmetic they are about indocteration. EagleMom the BSA is in grave danger it is not the same BSA that we have loved all these years. Forget about the rules and regulations that have protected our youth for a 103 years the start of the homosexual movement was voted on May 23rd 2013 Their will be no protection for our youth period. Militant adult homosexuals do not like any program where straight parents are informed. The homosexuals have found the weakness of the BSA it is called Corporate Funding and the blackmail begins. Sincerely Trenton Spears

  5. Fred, thank you for your kind comments. I, too, can tell that you are a committed scouter who believes sincerely that National has made a serious mistake and that it will detrimentally affect all of the BSA. It’s been said that perception is reality and in many cases, that’s all too true.
    You mentioned an ASM in your troop who was angry. From what I gathered, he believes that the vote to accept openly gay scouts means that the national policy is now to PROMOTE the gay lifestyle. If this were the case, I would be more than angry, I would be outraged!! Fortunately, I truly believe that this is not the case.
    Our scouts are being inculcated in scoutings “timeless” values not because of Nationals but because of local volunteers like you and me and your ASM scouter! WE are the essential link that connects this new generation with all that has gone before.
    What Nationals has done with this vote is to INCLUDE rather than exclude youth to Scouting. I knew a young man in our community theatre that I had acted with. He would have been a perfect example of the type of “openly gay” boy that this policy was designed to address.
    When I tried to “plug in” a boy that might fit the criteria, he kept popping into my mind. He never came out and said he was gay and he NEVER hit on any other student his age. If he had been a scout in my troop, would I have denied him admittance? Would I have treated him as a pariah? He was a friend, a helluva dancer(!) and a good person who was attracted to an older college friend of the same sex. Would he have been a moral danger to our troop?
    This is why I didn’t have a problem with the new BSA stance. For me, anytime the term “Gay” is used generically, I can put a face to it and it becomes personal. I perceive this new stance as being inclusive rather than divisive. That is the reality for me.
    Try and look at it from that perspective and I think you may see that all is not as bleak as you may think! We NEED people like you, me and your ASM scouter friend, the local volunteer faces that work with and make a difference in the lives of today’s youth! You want marching orders? I got marching orders for us: Keep doing the the good work that you have done. Rededicate yourself to those youths that you work with and MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THEIR LIVES! Stay the course! The BSA will always be stronger with you than without you! (Here endeth the sermon.)

    • Steve, while I appreciate and respect your right to believe firmly that the agenda is “not to promote homosexuality within the BSA” I couldn’t disagree more. There is SO much video proof to the contrary, where the militant homosexual political machine is openly stating their agenda, that I cannot fathom a misunderstanding of their plan to promote the homosexual lifestyle as a legitimate lifestyle within our whole country to include the BSA. This bottom line goal of this militant political machine is clear. The will not stop until it is a hate crime to believe, say, and teach that the Bible says it is a sin to engage in homosexual activities. The militant homosexual political machine is bent on this end goal. They are using anything and everything available to them to further this agenda. It is THIS very agenda that causes me to step back and say “I am first an American and people have a right to pursue happiness as they see fit” whether that happiness include homosexuality or a lifestyle that maintains a firm belief that the bible opposes homosexuality as an activity approved by God. To not see this end goal of this militant group is to, in my opinion, remain short sighted and to fail to listen to the words of this militant group.

      • Kathy, I hear what you are saying and I find militant advocacy groups about ANYTHING to be distasteful! I do not doubt for a minute that militant LGBT groups are looking at this decision as an incremental step. That is a stated goal. I suppose that in some ways I AM being “myopic” in choosing to interpret this vote merely as being inclusive but that is because I CHOOSE to look at it that way! I have no agenda where the boys are concerned other than to agree that everyone is better with Scouting than without! For me, that still holds true and I will do my best to pass on those values that I was taught in Scouting but to do that, I will have to stay the course and continue my work in Scouting.
        Specifically because this decision is about attitude and NOT about sexual activity is why I can do this and no, I am very much aware of what militant extremists would like to have happen.

        • Steve, I truly appreciate you giving me insight as to why you are staying the course in the New BSA (New BSA = as of May 22, 2013.) I believe you are up against a HUGE Militant Machine and in believing that I wish you God Speed and Success in your efforts to remain. I could not come to the same conclusion and feel that I was being faithful to my values and integrity. I respect your right to your decision and I appreciate your respect of my right to my decision. I hope that if things start to crumble, the lawsuits start rolling in, the hostile environment towards people who disagree with the Militant Homosexual Agenda grows within the ranks of the BSA – that you will consider joining with the efforts of the onmyhonor organization.

        • Does the new organization believe that the World Organization of the Scout Movement will allow a second American group into the WOSM? I think they limit it to one group. Or do they believe that WOSM will end its association with BSA in order to associate with the new organization? I suppose I am in the minority on this, but that purple World Crest and the international dream it represents seems important.

        • Karen, I think it has been posted here that some countries have more than one association with WOSM for various reasons. I’ll have to check that but it is what I remember.

        • I don’t think so. I think WOSM’s policy is one national organization per country. In a few countries, several organizations have formed a federation, and the federation affiliates with WOSM. But the reason that GSUSA is only a part of WAGGGS and not of WOSM is that they would have to have formed a federation with BSA in order to do that.

        • Hi Karen- the BSA has a monopoly on scouting through the use of their congressional charter. They have gone to court to snuff out other scout organizations using the charter, trademarks, and copyrights. This, too, is part of the BSA’s “timeless values”. The BSA did this early in its history to kill competition, and it has done so very recently as some tried to start-up inclusive scout organizations after the 2000 Dale court decision. So your answer is “no”, any new scout organization would not be part of WOSM unless WOSM adopted new rules or coerced the BSA to collaborate with a new scout organization (which I don’t see happening).

        • I really don’t think not joining WOSM will be a deterrent to a new Outdoor and character education program with Christian and ethical . May not even include Scouts in the name. The first such new organization forming does not.include Scouts in the name. I would not think they would try to duplicate Scouting anyway.

    • @Steve – you have made a lot of good points, thank you. The part that stands out the most for me is this: “For me, anytime the term “Gay” is used generically, I can put a face to it and it becomes personal. I perceive this new stance as being inclusive rather than divisive. That is the reality for me.”

      I think that is the heart of what puts people on one side or the other of this issue. If you know gay kids, if you work with gay kids, if you’ve watched them grow up from eager youngsters to good teens who are overall an asset to Scouting, then you are likely to feel they are not a threat to the BSA and should be included.

      • EagleMom,
        It’s that these boys threaten BSA – not at all. Nor is it shunning them. That seems to be the argument. The reality that many of us are concerned about, and is completely ignored by those supporting this decision, is the protection of young men from boy on boy harassment. Young men rarely report harassment because of the abuse and stigma they receive – or think they’ll receive. We don’t put young women in a tent or shower with young men who potentially find them sexually attractive (or more importantly, available), nor should we expect young men to be put in a similar situation.
        Unless you are talking about large tents with more than to boys to protect the buddy system, and individual, private showers and bathrooms, which contrary to common belief here, do not exist at every camp, this new policy does put young men in the very position we would not put young women in.

        • Concerned, correct me if I am wrong but it would seem that the major concern that you are espousing has to do with gay youth “harassing” other boys? I have a feeling that the exact opposite would probably be the case! Despite what some on the east and west coasts would have us believe, the majority of youth are heterosexual. Teens are also capable of remarkable emotional cruelty toward someone that they choose to ostracize and an openly gay boy could definitely fall into that category! Of course, bullying happens for many reasons, is against Scouting’s policies and is dealt with through established procedures.
          Worrying about a 14 or 15 year old boy harassing a younger boy in the showers or one-on-one in a tent seems…. extreme to me. The same way that we have procedures in place to prevent bullying should be sufficient to prevent any such occurrences (caveat: IF procedures are properly followed!)
          Remeber, sexual activity is totally against Scoutings values! Young teens just reaching puberty and experiencing “feelings” of attraction for the first time are always ackward and unsure. My personal observation is that this would be doubly true for a youth attracted to the same sex. I really can’t envision a young boy being a sexual predator to another JUST because he is gay!
          To equate same sex attraction to sexual harrassment would seem to be the same as equating homosexuality to pedophilia. There is no direct correlation. That is the reality.

        • Really, Steve, you find that extreme? Why do we separate the young women and young men in Venturing? We do – does that really suggest that young men (or young women for that matter) are sexual predators and going to harass each other? I don’t think so. Yet we have the policy to protect the privacy of those invovled. You suggest the procedures we have in place will protect the young men from sexual contact – which policies are those? The only policy we have that would have any affect is reporting after the fact. For adult-youth, and coed, we have separation. We do not have that for the young men.
          As far as the potential for teens, you might want to do a little research. There are discussioni groups centered around people discussing their first homosexual experiences at camp.
          And I didn’t say anything about predators – it seems those of you supporting this policy always jump to those emotionally charges words – it’s a distractioin and meaningless in this context. Is a teenage boy who hits on a teenage girl a predator? I hope not. Yet you jump to that suggestion – I did not. It is unreasonalbe to expect homosexual young men to ignore their interests anymore than heterosexual young men. Yet, you seem to have this image of homosexual men as somehow so much better than others. That seems to me a bit disrespectful. I would prefer to treat them as equals.
          I did not “equate same sex attraction to sexual harrassment” – I equated young hormonal teens with sexual harrassment – and remember, harassment takes very little. Touching that isn’t welcome is considered harassment.
          My point is still, if anyone is willing to address it, that we have standards in place to protect young women. Don’t our young men deserve the same protection?

        • I’m not defending the gay lifestyle. That being said, I will follow BSA’s policy of welcoming EVERY boy that wants to be a scout! Do I believe that new leadership teaching will be required to handle this new development? Yes. Do I believe that gay scouts are a danger to other hetrosexual scouts? I suppose that there is a very small but finite possibility that some kind of “incident” could occur BUT I don’t delieve that discriminating against a gay scout in the name of “protecting” the other boys is a viable or reasonable option either! We’re getting so caught up in the whole “gay invasion” thing that we’re looking for imagined dangers where I truly belive none exists. In case you may have overlooked it, there have been gay boy scouts and gay leaders. It’s just that they didn’t come out publicly. The boys that did usually did so to make a statement. The way I see it, the only real difference (other than maybe having some new boys that will now feel welcome to join Scouting) is that we will know in advance whether a scout is gay or not provided he feels comfortable in sharing that information. Personally, with as much controversy as this is causing, if I were a boy that wanted be a scout but secretly was attracted to my sex, I wouldn’t advertise it!! Why would I want to bring that kind of grief down on my head?!
          The only real change this decision did was to allow those individuals that felt the need to declare themselves the freedom to remain in Scouting.
          There is still the oath and law that scouts pledge to uphold. Despite the fears of some, they remain the cornerstone of Scouting.

        • Steve,
          You hit the crux of the issue here – “I don’t believe that discriminating against a gay scout in the name of “protecting” the other boys is a viable or reasonable option either.” That is the key difference. I would prefer to protect the young man.
          Also note the language – very subtle issues, but they are telling. Not I’ve always used the phrase “young man” and you always use boy. I believe that is done specifically, whether consciously or sub-. Using the word boy brings to mind younger people – no one likes to think of sexuality with boys. But we are not really talking about boys, are we? A 15 or 16 year old is not really a boy anymore. They have generally gone through, or are going through puberty. Sex is a part of their lives now – while they may not be practicing it, they are thinking about it. You also keep minimizing the potential for incidents – “small but finite possibility.” Yet, we segregate young women and young men for this very reason. Would you suggest there is no need to keep Venturing young men and women in separate facilities? Would you advocate for that? See, we do discriminate between genders now – male and female.
          Ultimately, I have no interest in discriminating against anyone. All I ask, and I think it is pretty reasonable, how we can provide the same level of protection for young men as we currently provide young women. In the months this has been going on, the only response to that question is to use insults – hateful, bigoted, homophobic. Were Scouting not an overnight program, I would have no concerns whatsoever. But it is not. There are plenty of youth education programs that are not overnight that are available.

        • Concerned,
          I do see where you are going with this and I don’t have a good answer readily available for you. Equating homosexual attraction and action with heterosexual doesn’t really address the situation in the same way as you have succinctly demonstrated. This might be one of the reasons why the BSA is waiting to implement this decision starting in 2014. They may need time to adequately prepare new training materials to address this issue. I don’t know. I suspect that certain committees up at Nationals are going to be experiencing some more headaches before this one’s over!

        • I don’t think National Leadership thought this through at the Troop level at all. I know I am unprepared to deal with a young man who tells me he is sexually and romantically interested in other boys. I am sure National BSA is unprepared as well. we do not live in that community. So how will they prepare these training materials? Consult with homosexual organizations? I’ve been in 4-H and we segregate boys and girls and that’s it. Never saw a homosexual and never had one reported to me but this is the South. I believe the BSA will take a tolerance and understanding position and train the adults how to protect the homosexuals and not vice-verse. They will also train adults how to train heterosexual young men to accept the homosexual and his lifestyle without expressing any (especially Christian) opinion on that lifestyle. It constitutes “bullying” and “intolerance” and will not be permitted. I will not corrupt young men with that training.

        • Steve,
          “homosexual attraction and action with heterosexual doesn’t really address the situation in the same way as you have succinctly demonstrated.” I’m not sure how you can come to that conclusion. The LGBT community is expressing that very sentiment. The campaigning for marriage rights makes exactly that claim.
          This biggest challenge I have in this discussion is the insistence on equality only when it is good for them. The Kaitlyn Hunt is a perfect example. Kaitlyn is an 18 year old young women charged with statutory rape for having a sexual relationship with a 14 year old young woman. The LGBT community is up in arms supporting Kaitlyn – yet thousands of young men are prosecuted each year for the same thing. In Kaitlyn’s case the argument is she is being targeted for being a lesbian. Somehow, because it is a homosexual relationship it’s somehow purer.
          Sorry, but equality has to work both ways or it is not equality. You can’t on one hand tell me that homosexual teens are just like heterosexual teens, and then tell me they are not.
          I suspect the BSA is going to follow similar groups – ignore the issue and pretend there isn’t one. The military has done it – heterosexual soldiers are forced to share rooms, bathrooms and showers with homosexual soldiers. And they are not allowed to complain about it. BTW, depending on the units, reporting sexual harassment from a homosexual is considered being harassment in itself. In other words, you can be punished for reporting harassment. In other cases, the stigma keeps soldiers from reporting it. http://www.recoveryranch.com/articles/trauma-and-ptsd-articles/sexual-trauma-among-men-in-the-military/
          I’m waiting for the court cases where parents sue leaders for same sex harassment in a troop. I believe that is what it will take for this to be addressed. It seems people only act when their wallet is threatened.

        • Okay Concerned, now you are confusing me! I basically agree that I don’t have a good answer to your question and you ask how I can come to that conclusion? Umm… maybe because there are obvious differences between male and female which makes separate facilities relatively easy and such is not the case with homosexuals?

        • Steve,
          The “how I can come to that conclusion” question merely referred to the suggestion that homosexual and heterosexual sexual attraction. That’s all. It appeared to me you were talking about the attraction rather than physical attributes.
          I do get a chuckle about segregating bathrooms based on physical differences. There are a number of various cases in the courts now about transgendered (in various states from pre op to pot op) access to restrooms. Maybe we could solve that issue by changing them from mens and womens to more biological terms – although I would certainly get a chuckle on how the signage would go.

        • LOL Concerned!!!! I’m thinking of the signage now too. Very funny!!! I’ve always been confused about Gay men who are attracted to Men but who dress like women or get a sex change…..do they find heterosexual men to fool into a relationship with them or do they still have relationships with gay men? But then gay men are attracted to men, so a gay man wouldn’t be attracted to a gay man who dresses as a woman or changes his body to be a woman. The confusion just keeps stumping me. It is interesting though ;)

        • Kathy,
          Unfortunately, all too often the transgendered will not disclose their circumstances to straight men. There have been some that didn’t find out until they’d been married for some time. Imagine how the straight man feels when he finds out – particularly if he believes that homosexual behavior is morally wrong. There are a number of fairly high profile murder cases due to this every year.
          My understanding is that many don’t believe themselves as transgendered, but women with a birth defect. I worked with one person who described herself as a real woman so has no need to disclose that she used to have male genitalia.

        • Looking back at your comment, I may have misinterpreted your sentence – “Equating homosexual attraction and action with heterosexual doesn’t really address the situation in the same way as you have succinctly demonstrated.” My initial read was that you were suggesting the difference rather than identifying gaps in current methodologies.

    • Thank you Steve. I have several “plug ins” that I envision when the discussion turns to kicking a boy out of the BSA. I feel terrible when it is suggested that a boy and his family be firmly admonished when they “clearly knew the rules” when they joined but did not know that their child was gay when they did so.

      • You know, there really hasn’t been this “kicking out” of gay young men. By and far, the majority of these cases were by people who were making political statements. Most units ignored the situation unless the boy made a fuss.

  6. We are debating whether or not to leave the BSA so as not to support/associate with an organization that validates a homosexual lifestyle. We aren’t as concerned about homosexual influence to our children as our scheduling needs minimize our exposure to mainstream Scout units and we don’t watch TV, movies, or listen to popular music and our boys and girls are for the most part separate until they are ready for marriage. A boy who is known to have a girlfriend (or vice-versa) would be referred for religious counseling; we remove page 120 from the Scout Handbooks because it’s inappropriate for our boys. If any references to homosexuality would appear in future Scout Handbooks (and we’re still a part of the BSA), we would remove those pages as well, though it would more likely cause us to look for other options for our youth programming.

      • So what do your youth do when the turn 18 and you no longer control them???

        I am preparing my son and daughter for the real world and not one in a close society like old SM13 is doing…..

        Trenton….you want to see why I believe the BSA will be stronger…read the above post…

        • EagleMom No grieving here just standing up for the values that scouting should not have left. If you believe that voting to lift the ban on youth homosexuals and leaving out adult homosexuals is a good thing I worry about you and those who voted to allow discrimination in scouting and their capabilities to run the program. I will certainly grieve when the BSA closes it doors for lack of moral direction and the pains of division that it now represents.
          Bob Basement I would prefer your personal knowledge on how your unit will be stronger when the ban on youth homesexuals is lifted and others leave. I hope you have the insight to respond with more that four words. Trenton Spears.

        • >>>>If you believe that voting to lift the ban on youth homosexuals and leaving out adult homosexuals is a good thing I worry about you and those who voted to allow discrimination in scouting and their capabilities to run the program. I will certainly grieve when the BSA closes it doors for lack of moral direction and the pains of division that it now represents.

          Trenton, I don’t think the new policy is ideal. I think the previous proposal, the ‘local troop option”, may have been a better way for troops to reflect the diverse values of their CO’s. However, I’ve known enough gay and lesbian youth, in and out of.Scouting, to know that they are for the most part good, honest people, trying to deal with their same-sex attraction in an honorable way and live a moral life. They’ve been dealt a difficult hand, and shunning them from groups of good kids based solely on their *thoughts*, not their *actions*, is, I believe, immoral. Our churches don’t shun them in this way, nor do our private or public schools, nor do other youth activities such as sports or 4H. I don’t think the BSA should either.

        • EagleMom, 103 years of a policy that worked is not shunning. The policy was out there. Like I said, the people who join Scouts shouldn’t have joined in the first place if they couldn’t abide by the existing policy.

          Anywhere you go there are rules. Going into an establishment requires you to wear a shirt and shoes. If you don’t, you are asked to leave. Is that shunning? Why go in the their without a shirt and shoes knowing you will be asked to leave and then complain about it? Go to a store that allows you to enter without a shirt or shoes!

          If you go to Six Flags, there are rules about line cutting. If you choose to cut in line knowing the existing rules, you’ll get kicked out. Is that shunning?

          Refusing to take personal responsibility for one’s choices and the choice to not make informed decisions is the problem here.

          The homosexual groups had/have every right, just like everyone else, to form groups they can agree with. But that was not the goal of this homosexual militant political machine. They are smart enough to know they could have formed their own group that included heterosexual boys and made policy for their scouting organization that they could truly take an oath to abide by. Their goal was/is TOTAL approval their life style and TOTAL rejection of anyone’s right to speak against their lifestyle.

          The good things is that there are homosexual people out there who are not militant and have told me they wish the militant ones would stop. There are Militant types in every group that make the group look bad. It’s a tragedy.

        • Kathy Perkins thanks for you comments they are right on and informative closer to the truth than a few bloggers on this forum. I hope you are not a senior citizen because Bob Basement and db think if you are a senior citizen you don’t know what you are talking about and younger scouters have a more open mind therefore comments from old folks are mute and out of touch. Here is the comment from Bob Basement. You [ meaning me a 76 old scouter ] just sound exactly like my 80 year old parents….They hate just about everything that isn’t exactly like them…..I would suggest counseling, but I doubt anyone would take a 80 year old.In 10 years, after all the old timers are either in nursing homes or died off, gay adults will be allowed in the BSA. Just that simple. End of comment. Comment from db. i think we’re getting to the root of the issue. Trenton is 76 years old. Fred is somewhere near 60 years old (he’s married 32 years). My dad would be upset, too, if he were alive. This is a generational issue as well as a religious issue. The scout leaders on this list that are younger are less uptight about this whole thing. They are willing to adapt and adjust. End of comment
          Kathy these are Scout leaders . Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • @Kathy –
          >>>>103 years of a policy that worked is not shunning. The policy was out there. Like I said, the people who join Scouts shouldn’t have joined in the first place if they couldn’t abide by the existing policy.

          Again, boys typically join Scouts way before they are aware of any sexual preference.

          >>>>Anywhere you go there are rules. Going into an establishment requires you to wear a shirt and shoes. … If you go to Six Flags, there are rules about line cutting.

          These examples are about *behavior*, and are different than excluding someone because of *thoughts*.

          >>>>Refusing to take personal responsibility for one’s choices and the choice to not make informed decisions is the problem here.

          It is unrealistic to expect boys of 7 or 8 to predict whether they will experience same-sex attraction and to accept or reject Scouting accordingly at such a young age.

          >>>>Their goal was/is TOTAL approval their life style and TOTAL rejection of anyone’s right to speak against their lifestyle.

          The homosexuals I know are completely in agreement with Americans’ First Amendment rights to speak against anyone or anything they like.

          >>>>The good things is that there are homosexual people out there who are not militant and have told me they wish the militant ones would stop. There are Militant types in every group that make the group look bad. It’s a tragedy.

          Then why are you willing to throw the good out with the bad? The BSA is clear that “No member may use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda.” and “Any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.” Why not allow gay Scouts who agree with this policy, and act accordingly, to stay in Scouting?

      • Mr. Basement,
        I appreciate your concern, but don’t understand why a Scouter such as yourself would be so insulting and harsh to a community with different beliefs and customs than his own.
        I can assure you that our children are quite happy without TV and popular music, spending much more time playing outside and reading. They aren’t exposed to the drugs, sex, and violence that is commonplace in mainstream entertainment and they have little interest in it. They grow up and raise healthy families while waiting until they are ready for marriage to begin dating.
        Just as you likely don’t fear that your children will involve themselves with drugs and gangs when they turn 18, we aren’t in fear of our children doing things contrary to our values. We instill in our children a value system, we don’t lock them in a cage. (they also generally continue their education at religious institutions and if they choose a field that requires degrees, etc. from a different institution, they either stay at home or wait until they are married).
        Do you really want us out of Scouting and feel that it would be a better organization without us?

        • Sorry sounds to me like you have your children on very short leashes…I bet you censor what they read too.

          I don’t imagine your scout troops are boy led…..you don’t attend camporees or expose your scouts to “main stream scouting units”…….That is half the fun, meeting new folks…..

          So you don’t mix with other units…..so why is scouting stronger with your unit as a member????? I don’t see how????

          So I honestly don’t see why you bother with scouting

        • SM13, I’m not Mr. Basement, but I can assure you I don’t want you out of Scouting, regardless of your views on the policy change. Scouting should be a comfortable place for boys and families with a wide variety of religious and cultural beliefs. Building campfires, pitching tents, sharing the work of washing dishes – these are things in which all can participate, and all can learn from. Along the way, learning that folks of different religions aren’t that much different than oneself is part of the Scouting experience. Our communities, our nation, and our world is a better place when led by men (and women) who have been part of the Scouting movement in their youth, participating in Scouting activities and learning leadership skills alongside other Scouts from many walks of life.
          There may be uncomfortable moments, of course, between boys who come from very different backgrounds. But they are quickly overcome, especially when the Scout values of friendliness and kindness are put into practice.
          Please stay. Your family is welcome. Your family is needed.

        • I agree with Eagle Mom, SM13. I would hope that you are able to find a way to remain in the BSA program with your family, and your community. The way I see the new policy, The BSA isn’t advocating any type of sexual activity whatsoever, gay or straight, and want to leave that instruction to an individual’s family. (Which is where I believe it belongs).

    • SM13,
      I don’t think the BSA wants to be in the business of validating anything, sexuality-wise. They have clearly stated, “The BSA believes parents should decide if, when, and how to discuss matters of sexuality with their kids. This proposal reinforces Scouting’s belief that sexual conduct by any Scout, heterosexual or homosexual, is contrary to the virtues of Scouting…Scouting expects appropriate behavior from all members, which includes sexual conduct, regardless of sexual orientation….Any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting….No member may use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda…Members must demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.”

      When they say “no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of stating their sexual orientation ALONE”, and “sexual conduct by any Scout, heterosexual or homosexual, is contrary to the virtues of Scouting”, they seem to be making a distinction between same-sex attraction and same-sex behavior, much like many Christian churches.

      If your troop consists of families who share your values, you are unlikely to encounter anything that conflicts with them. You have experience with making Scouting fit with your beliefs; this issue shouldn’t be any different in that regard. Please prayerfully consider staying with the BSA.

    • “We are debating whether or not to leave the BSA so as not to support/associate with an organization that validates a homosexual lifestyle.”

      That is exactly the problem with BSA’s new policy. The new policy has BSA talking even more about sexuality, when sexuality should have no place in Scouting.

      BSA would have been much smarter to say “BSA has nothing to do with sexuality, we’ll let chartering organizations deal with it if they want to.” But instead, BSA’s new policy has BSA giving the most extensive, detailed instruction about sexuality ever. What’s next, a “Human Sexuality” merit badge?

      BSA would have been much wiser to leave all conversation about sexuality out of Scouting. Now that they have embedded sexuality into Scouting, BSA is sure to upset everyone, conservative, liberal, and everyone in-between.

      • “We are debating whether or not to leave the BSA so as not to support/associate with an organization that validates a homosexual lifestyle.”

        This is not the reason I am against the BSA’s decision to change the policy.

        I am against the BSA policy change because:

        #1 Reason) The BSA didn’t listen to the vast majority of it’s members. In fact, the 60some % of the 1400 people completely ignored the member’s voice that stood firm against a policy change. If the vast majority of the members of the BSA were in favor of a policy change then I would NOT be against the change because the members should decide what their organization will and won’t be, especially in matters of membership policy

        2) I do not like to be bullied around. The minority political machine attacked, bullied, and threatened the BSA with financial ruin. I cannot and will NEVER respect or support anything or anyone who bullies or caves to bullying tactics.

        3) And definitely not a small reason, American quickly becoming a thing of the past. Of the people, By the people, For the people! When a group or even a Nation lead by the minority opinion starts to make decisions for the whole, we have ceased to be the democracy that our Founding Fathers worked so hard to establish. When the minority rules, when leaders ignore their members who put them in their positions, we move from a democracy to a dictatorship and THAT my fellow Americans is NOT something I’ll EVER stand for.

        Had the majority of BSA members desired to change the 103 year old policy that worked for 103 years, for whatever reason, I would NOT be against this decision of the BSA.

        We need to wake up, stop making this issue be about who is gay and who is not and start to look at the core disease that has infested our nation….minority, militant, political groups and special interest groups run our nation today. Even voting for the President of the United States has become corrupt by the almighty dollar.

        Someone has to stand for the People today. Today, I am standing for the People in speaking these truths.

        There is NOT just two positions represented in this issue, Pro-Gay, Anti-Gay. There is PRO-AMERICA and PRO-DEMOCRACY. No matter what side of the street you are on with this issue surrounding Homosexuality, NO ONE should think they are safe when the majority of the people are ignored and the minority in power decide against the will of the people. The homosexual might feel they have won today but how will you feel when the Muslim Militant Political Machine over takes our Nation and publicly executes you based on the Koran???? Then you will be screaming Democracy! We are headed in that direction. So think hard about your tactics, those who pushed this decision through against the will of the people. You might like the outcome this time but yours is coming. (And before anyone goes half cocked off in a side step….not all Muslims are of the Militant sort either just like not all gays are not.)

        Peace Out

  7. SM13 Thanks for your thoughts. Here is an article put out by Ross Murray of GLAAD. Quote” The homosexual-rights group GLAAD said it and other like-minded activist groups will now encourage “gay” youth to participate in the Boy Scouts. But spokesman Ross Murray said “the ban on gay adult leaders is still a major barrier for many families and organizations.”Quote” He hopes, the Washington Post reported, that as homosexual youth “demonstrate their dedication to the program; hopefully it can change the culture of the organization from the inside.” Unquote”
    SM13 change scouting from the inside this is very troubling and presents a great problem for the BSA.
    A article from a Christian organization.
    Passion
    It is only a matter of time before the homosexual activists also force the BSA to offer merit badges for homosexual themes & activities, hold “sensitivity training” for all scouts to program them to drop moral objections to homosexual behavior, and force “sexual sensitivity training” just as we’ve been seeing in our public schools for over a decade now. The BSA has lost all legal and moral grounds to stop any of this end of article. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • Blogmaster and ScoutMommaX3 Thank you for the website it is refreshing to hear that across this nation there is so much that can be done to keep the moral values for our youth and the timeless values that the BSA voted away last week. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • Thanks Blogmaster!

          I am going to check back next year after homosexual adults are admitted and see if any opinions change. I do believe the pressure will be intense especially if corporations keep holding up the money. Most on the pro-policy side seem to be okay with it.

  8. Mike I believe that you don’t support any values that the BSA has instilled in its program. Timeless Values does have a definate meaning. It is hard for me to understand that you would treat values in Scouting so lightly. Anyway it time to move on I will never leave the values that has kept me in Scouting for 28 years. I certainly know what values mean. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • Mike Most of the bloggers on this forum agree that lifting the ban was a mistake. Most of the bloggers believe in timeless values. Most of the bloggers support as you call my poor reasoning. Mike how long have you been in scouting it appears that you have been living in the homosexual secret bubble of dishonesty. Mike you can attack me all you want but you will never break or change my loyalty to the values that the BSA has supported for 103 years. Mike why do you think the BSA has spent so much time and money on values? It was to keep the Scout program attractive to new scouts and Churches across this nation. Sincerley Trenton Spears

        • >>>>Mike how long have you been in scouting it appears that you have been living in the homosexual secret bubble of dishonesty.

          Trenton, as you know, some of us believe that homosexual Scouts should not be shunned. We are, for the most part, not homosexuals ourselves. Rather, we have homosexual relatives, friends, co-workers, and other acquaintances. We have known them long enough to realize that they are not, generally speaking, a threat to the BSA or the boys within the Scouting movement. We believe that Scouting has much to offer gay kids, and gay kids and their families have much to offer the Scouting movement.

          There is no “homosexual secret bubble of dishonesty”. We are all, whether for or against the new policy, folks who care about the BSA and the boys it serves. We just disagree on how best to carry out the BSA’s important work in our communities.

        • Eagle Mom here is the article and it does state affirm your position on Homosexuality and LGBT issues. Please read. By Todd Starnes The Department of Justice has been accused of religious intolerance and viewpoint discrimination after workers were sent an email directing them to verbally affirm homosexuality, according to a law firm specializing in religious liberty and now representing a DOJ whistleblower.
          Liberty Counsel said DOJ employees were emailed a brochure called “LGBT Inclusion at Work: The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Managers.” The brochure was created as a resource from DOJ Pride, an association of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender employees of the DOJ.
          A Department of Justice spokesperson did not return calls seeking comment. Fox News also reached out to DOJ Pride for comment – but emails were not answered.
          Among the directives in the brochure is an order for workers to vocally affirm homosexuality.
          “Don’t judge or remain silent,” the brochure read. “Silence will be interpreted as disapproval.”
          They were also told to post “DOJ Pride” stickers in their office to indicate “that it is a safe place.”
          One gay DOJ employee is quoted in the directive; “Silence seems like disapproval. There’s still an atmosphere of LGBT issues not being appropriate for the workplace (particularly for transgender people), or that people who bring it up are trying to rock the boat.”
          Mat Staver, founder of Liberty Counsel, said every American should be outraged by the DOJ orders.
          “This administration is pushing the most radical, immoral agenda on the American people,” Staver said. “Christians are not merely required to ‘shut up,’ but now they are being coerced to embrace immorality that goes against their sincerely held religious beliefs.”
          Liberty Counsel is representing an unidentified female DOJ worker in Washington, D.C. who received the brochure.
          Staver said the woman is terrified she might lose her job unless she publicly affirms homosexuality – and she’s not the only one.
          “Christians are frightened and terrified of losing their jobs,” Staver told Fox News. “You just can’t keep you head down and do your job. Now you have to become an advocate for the LGBT agenda – and if you don’t – the DOJ will consider that to be intolerant.”
          Staver said the idea that Christians who might oppose homosexuality have to put up a pro-gay symbol in their office smacks of thought police.
          “Under this directive, one cannot be a Christian and a manager at the Department of Justice,” he said. “How does one who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible display ‘gay pride’ stickers?”
          Liberty Counsel vice president Matt Barber told Fox News the DOJ has created an extremely hostile work environment for Christians.
          “This is ‘1984’ just a few decades late,” Barber said. “This is so Orwellian. President Obama said he intended to fundamentally transform America. That’s exactly what they are doing and they are doing it within the Department of Justice.”
          Barber said some female DOJ workers have also expressed concerns about transgender workers using their bathroom facilities.
          “They (DOJ leaders) have said if you are uncomfortable with a man in a skirt using the facilities – then tough – you need to get over it,” Barber told Fox News.
          The brochure quoted a male employee who dresses like a woman: “I want people to understand that I’m real. I want to be recognized as the gender I really am…Just imagine if people were constantly debating YOUR bathroom privileges. Imagine how humiliating that would be.”
          Workers were also told to use “inclusive” words like partner or significant other – rather than traditional terms like husband or wife. They were also told to use a transgender person’s chosen name and the pronoun that is consistent with the person’s self-identified gender.
          DOJ employees were told to stop using phrases like “gay lifestyle” or “sexual preference” –because those words are “considered by many as offensive.”
          Barber said it was a form of sexual harassment.
          “If you feel sexually harassed and complain about it – then you are the one who could get in trouble – because you’ve violated the transgender person’s rights,” he said. Eagle Mom this is what the BSA is facing no way around it they will cave in because they have homosexual supporters on the National Board one big problem for uniting the BSA. Sincerely Trenton Spears

        • She’s okay with Trenton. GLAAD would be a good source for training materials in her opinion.

          I have always believed that once homosexual leaders are in, NAMBLA will be next. If they haven’t broken any laws, you can’t keep them out even though their express purpose is man-boy love. They could charter their own Troop. Whose to stop them, discrimination and all that.

          Capitulation only brings more capitulation.

          The ‘morality of compromise’ sounds contradictory. Compromise is usually a sign of weakness, or an admission of defeat. Strong men don’t compromise, it is said, and principles should never be compromised.

          Andrew Carnegie

        • Fred, your thought process is amazing.There is no more reason to believe that a homosexual man would be interested in a young boy than there is to believe that you, an open and avowed hetrosexual man (I believe), would be interested in a young girl. If you are interested in young girls, lay your cards on the table. If not, stop, once and for all, conflating homosexuality with pedophilia.

        • Mike, in my opinion you are wrong. There is always a progression of incremental change when homosexual advocates move in. Just read the history of every organization they have coerced themselves into. You don’t have to believe me.

          You will note that I did not and do not connect homosexuality with pedophilia. It can happen but I do not think it is pervasive.

          NAMBLA, however, is a different story. That is pedophilia and I do believe they will see BSA as fruitful for scouting new members. A homosexual Scoutmaster takes a shine to a young man over the the age of consent in Scouting. With lowered moral standards, its certainly a possibility.

        • Mike, a mature person would recognize your question was inappropriate and not dignify it with a response.

          An immature person would make the same mistake twice.

          Does that answer your question?

        • Fred, actually the answer you have given me is that you clearly find the suggestion that you might be interested in young girls to be inappropriate, but can’t recognize that your assertions about homosexuals and young boys are equally inappropriate/ridiculous. On the topic of repeatedly making the same mistake, if you want to find the person with the immature perspective, look in a mirror.

        • My friend and I were just discussing you Mike and I like what she said when she exited the room; “Fred don’t bother with Mike. Remember you can’t fix stupid!” it’s just a phrase. Don’t get offended.

        • Fred Cooper are you aware of any BSA directive that said that as long as the homosexual remain silent about their homosexuality and it was ok to break that ban on homosexuals in Scouting and promote and advance scouts regardless of the Court rulings for the BSA to exclude homosexuals from scouting. I have never heard of a legal directive from the National BSA that allow this so called don’t ask don’t tell. It seems that db knows something about this. If this is true why was the vote on lifting the ban necessary it seems that they already allowed homosexuals to be a members of the BSA if they remained silent about their sexuality choices. So much for On My Honor and Timeless Values not my slogans but the Boy Scouts of America that I completely endorse. Sincerely,Trenton Spears

        • “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

          ― Mark Twain

        • Mike Mark Twain was never a Boy Scout. Stupid is as stupid does. Trenton Spears

        • Hi Trenton – here are the exact words of the “old” policy: “While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA.”

          The key words are “open or avowed”. If you were closeted, the BSA didn’t seem to mind if you were a member. And then there is behavior. The BSA terminates the membership of people for all kinds of behavior issues, not simply the behavior dealing with human sexuality. In the past, the BSA has terminated the membership of both gay and straight members who advocated in a public forum for the BSA to change its membership standard.

        • db said: “If you were closeted, the BSA didn’t seem to mind if you were a member. And then there is behavior. The BSA terminates the membership of people for all kinds of behavior issues, not simply the behavior dealing with human sexuality. In the past, the BSA has terminated the membership of both gay and straight members who advocated in a public forum for the BSA to change its membership standard.”

          Where did you read or witness that BSA knew a person was homosexual and did not kick them out? i’d like to know.

          Where was someone kicked out over advocating for change in the Policy? I’d like to know when and where on that one too.

          That’s Trenton’s question and you didn’t answer it.

          I know of no time or place either statement you made is true. Please enlighten me.

        • EagleMom, trying to educate Trenton is an exercise doomed to failure. His moral certainty leads him to conclude that anybody who disagrees with him has “lower” morals and is, by definition, wrong.

        • Trenton, I have read the article, and it is NOT consistent with the facts.

          >>>>The Department of Justice has been accused of religious intolerance and viewpoint discrimination after workers were sent an email directing them to verbally affirm homosexuality, according to a law firm specializing in religious liberty and now representing a DOJ whistleblower.

          The DOJ did not send the email. It was sent by DOJ Pride, a separate organization. The email did not ask anyone to “affirm” anything.

          >>>>Mat Staver, founder of Liberty Counsel, said every American should be outraged by the DOJ orders.

          There were NO DOJ “orders”. The DOJ did NOT send the email. It came from an outside organization called DOJ Pride.

          >>>>Staver said the woman is terrified she might lose her job unless she publicly affirms homosexuality – and she’s not the only one.

          Again – the DOJ did NOT send the email. The email did NOT ask anyone to “affirm homosexuality”.

          >>>>Staver said the idea that Christians who might oppose homosexuality have to put up a pro-gay symbol in their office smacks of thought police. “Under this directive, one cannot be a Christian and a manager at the Department of Justice,” he said.

          The DOJ did NOT direct anyone to put a pro-gay symbol in their office. There WAS no DOJ “directive”. The email did NOT come from the DOJ.

          >>>>“They (DOJ leaders) have said if you are uncomfortable with a man in a skirt using the facilities – then tough – you need to get over it,” Barber told Fox News.

          The brochure did NOT come from the DOJ.

          Please seek out the facts from primary sources. Do not believe what you read on websites that make their money from getting people upset over things that aren’t true. There *is* a more nuanced story here that may be worth discussing, but it should be discussed using primary sources, not the inaccurate half-truths from articles like this one.

        • >>>>A homosexual Scoutmaster takes a shine to a young man over the the age of consent in Scouting. With lowered moral standards, its certainly a possibility.

          How is this any different than a heterosexual Scoutmaster or Camp Staff member taking a shine to a young lady over the age of consent who is working at Camp?

          The BSA rules are the same, regardless of the gender of the people in question. The laws of the US are the same, regardless of the gender of the people in question.

          For that matter, for Christians, the Biblical requirements are the same, regardless of the gender of the people in question, in that sexual behavior outside of church-sanctified marriage is immoral.

        • Eagle Mom and Mike is this forum about educating me on homosexuals ? Your comments are very discriminating. If I was a homosexual you would not have any negative to say about me. Because my comments are truthful and based on facts does not that make them as Mike says by definition wrong. Here is a fact you cannot twist. Every homosexual Scout and every homosexual scout leader broke the policy of the ban on homosexual’s in scouting by lying and secrecy in most cases with protection from some Scout leaders and Councils that ignored the laws of scouting. This is what I refer to as living in a secret bubble of dishonesty of which Eagle Mom says does not exists. If you don’t like the laws then change them before you break them. All though I don’t agree with homosexuals in Scouting I was one of those advocates that filled out the survey that was sent out to the Scout leaders and their answer that 60% did not want the ban lifted. I have complete respect for the 854 delegates that made the call to lift the ban than all those who broke the ban of homosexuality prior to the proposal voted on May 23rd.. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • I’m pretty baffled by Trenton’s “secrecy bubble”. He’s upset that gay BSA members have kept their sexual orientation to themselves? The BSA instructed them to. The BSA has basically a “don’t ask / don’t tell” policy. This policy is problematic. It was a problem for the US Military, and it is a problem for the BSA. It is an institution that instructs individuals to lie, at the same time the institution proclaims “timeless values”. The hypocrisy of the US military and the BSA has basically collapsed in on itself – and so the policies come to an end. Honesty is a timeless value. “Don’t ask, don’t tell” is not a timeless value.

        • db and Mike Please send me the directive or Executive order from the BSA that homosexuals to remain silent about their homosexual status in scouting and any don’t ask don’t tell in any handbook, pamphlet or even a simple letter. db if you have been involved in any action that confirms this please put it on this website to enlighten me and other scout leaders. On your comments I am confused about your source of being silent in any BSA function please as Mike says educate me. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • Trenton, as near as I can tell, many of your “facts” are based upon the teachings of your church or other homophobes in your community. This calls into question the truth of those so-called facts. From where I sit, they seem more like fears or opinions that you wish were true. Misquoting or misreading sources or mistakenly believing that something is true just because you read it on the Internet doesn’t make you any more right.

        • Mike Like I have said before who gave you the authority to define intelligence. What gives you to the authority on what I can print on this forum. The purpose of this forum is to allow free expression of ones ideals and convictions what is not about is judging a persons comments based on your personal attacks on a persons integrity. Mike for your information I was a Scout Leader long before I was a member of my Church and my convictions were formed in 1949 when I was Boy Scout free of all the nonsense that has taken over the BSA the last few years. If you could take money out of the picture their would be no change in Scouting policy’s of excluding homosexuals. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • EagleMom, there is not any difference in a heterosexual Adult leader taking a shine to a heterosexual young woman in Venturing. Did you think for a minute that I thought there was a difference? You would be wrong.

          However, the vast majority of heterosexual people do not define themselves by their sexuality as most homosexuals do. Closeted homosexuals around here must do a great job of concealment because I don’t know a one. I know many that act and dress and don’t hide a thing. City of 385,000 nearby that has a very active homosexual community. Not much left to the imagination.

          Morals have been relaxed effective January 1. Sexuality will now be in Scouting and homosexuality affirmed as moral and ethical pursuant to the Mission, Oath and Law. I’m not worried about the Christian Scouters so much as those now in Scouting and those applying who did not think they could get in before the relaxation of moral standards. If present homosexual leaders were lying before to get in, they will lie now to stay in pending further capitulation of BSA leadership next year.

          There is nothing illegal in my scenario, the youth was above the age of consent. At present, it is clearly immoral but times change so who now what the next crop of young secular parents and youth will bring us. I am sure BSA will be saying “Survey says!” and following that position, changing as secular attitudes change.

          Biblical Principles do not change. They are the same as when Jesus walked the earth. People change. SInful nature does not change. Secular society changes with fads and indulgences and waxes and wanes based on prevailing moral standards regulated by man’s laws which have been relaxing since the 60′s after being rigid in the late 40′s and 50′s and so on and so forth til the end of time. .

        • Fred, I’e been following along – against my better judgment. I find your opinions both entertaining and insulting. And that’s fair and fine with me. Some of my best friends are staunch conservatives and I still love them dearly. My father, for one, God rest his soul. He used to love to argue ’till the sun came up just to have fun arguing. He especially like to argue with me because I am a staunch liberal. Just to be clear, that doesn’t make me right and you wrong, it just makes us different. And I think the country is better for all viewpoints – it was what we were founded on after all.

          But I couldn’t let this one slide. You said: “However, the vast majority of heterosexual people do not define themselves by their sexuality as most homosexuals do.” How in the world would you possibly know such a thing? How many friends of yours are homosexual? I have many friends who are. Including one who was a boyhood friend that came “out” to me in his 40′s, after years of trying the be “fixed” through a “christian” organization that “helps” such people. (I use the quotes not because I have disdain for Christians – I am one – but because I believe that these organizations do more harm than good) He ultimately realized that there was nothing wrong with him, he just was attracted to men. He, and my other friends (who happen to be gay) have committed relationships, families, jobs, are ministers, and have other careers, and I have never once discussed “sex” with any of them! Family, yes, sex, no. Now, I don’t expect that I’ll change your mind in any way, you are clearly committed to your point of view, and seemingly have no interest in learning anything, just barking at people and making them wrong for thinking differently from you. Believe what you like, Fred. Just please don’t’ make statements of “fact” when you clearly have no idea.

          And I have read your statements about being gay as a lifestyle choice. That would make being straight a lifestyle choice. When did you decide to be straight, Fred? How old were you when you “decided” to like girls instead of boys? Did you consider liking boys and decide that it wasn’t for you? I don’t know about you, but I have always just been straight. I’ve had crushes on girls since my earliest memories. I never “chose”. I just am. My gay friends have often said to me “why would I choose to be gay? we are so shunned and discriminated against in this society – there is no good reason to choose to be gay!”

          Ok, I understand you don’t like the policy. That is abundantly clear. My suggestion is to suck it up and stick with scouts, or stop posting and quit. I’ve had enough.

        • Why so tense Jeff? Its a free country. Why do I continue to post if I’m leaving anyway? I posted it earlier: If any post I make creates a kernel of indecision about this awful policy change, it is well worth the time and effort. My facts are facts that I have lived. Yours may be the same. I’m sure you were the apple of your fathers eye and he never understood why you didn’t get it. My Dad and I were in agreement in the end. It took years of me growing up. Some never do.

          I do not live your experiences in my world. You probably don’t live mine in your world, at least not based on what you are saying. I have had two known homosexuals in my family. If there are others, they never said it. One was very expressive with a life partner. Died of AIDS several years ago.

          The other is a woman. We don’t see much of her except at family events. We treat her as family and we don’t discuss it openly because sexuality is usually not a topic at a family get together.

          Let ma ask you a question, since you are so certain of your “facts.” If a person is not openly to be homosexual, how do you know? Our family member and we accept her as family. We do not celebrate it and as far as we know, she is celibate. Her business. I don;t think you can make a blanket statement on the other side and call it universal fact. Your self-delusional if you think you can. What’s true in your world is not true in mine. That’s as far as I will go. Both are the “real” world to us and that is enough for me. More to where I live and expand your horizons.

          God made me straight and it is the natural way. First girlfriend in 3rd grade, first love at 14 and loved every girl I met after who would give me the time of day until the last for the last 32 years. Never even considered any other lifestyle and truly do not understand fighting against nature’s way. Guys are great for hanging out, hunting, sports and fellowship but why would you mess up a good friendship with a mess like homosexual thought? What would cause anyone to think that way without encouragement or enabling by an mentor or adult or worse, molestation by a trusted person. Your world, not mine and I do not want to go where you live and I sure did not want to bring my kids up in a community like yours. My kids would come home from school and we would talk about the kids at school who “acted out” homosexual. None of the kids believed they were, they just wanted to be rebellious and different. Their world. Yours is probably different.

          My suggestion to you is that if you do not like my posting, you don’t have to read it. Its a simple click of your mouse to surf other sites. I am i until December 1st and I am going to speak my mind until 12:00 midnight on December 31 as a member and since many posters here are not Scouts, I will probably return to engage in debate as the ship takes on water.

          So suck it up and jump in. The waters warm. No left-winger ever caused me to leave a debate and I have more than enough facts to keep it going.

        • Got it Fred. Thanks for clarifying. And your statement :“However, the vast majority of heterosexual people do not define themselves by their sexuality as most homosexuals do.” is a made-up fact, since you only know a couple of “homosexuals”. (Also known as a lie – since you had no direct knowledge of it as fact.) There is no way you would know this to be true, unless someone did a study on it. I’ve never seen such a study. My main objection is not with your argument. i respect your right to it and I respect your service to scouts. What I don’t appreciate is the making up of facts to build your case. you are doing yourself and your case a disservice.

        • Its my fact and I’m sticking t it as my experience. Sorry if you don’t like it but it is certainly my experience.

        • Fred, I’m really curious, and not trying to be snarky at all, but you said, somewhere, something about the vast majority of homosexuals defining themselves by their sexuality as opposed to heterosexuals who do not do so. You admit that you haven’t known of any open gays in scouts. (Of course they aren’t open… they don’t want to get kicked out). You talk about how it isn’t accepted where you live. You also talk of two gay people in your family. You stated:

          “Let ma ask you a question, since you are so certain of your “facts.” If a person is not openly to be homosexual, how do you know? Our family member and we accept her as family. We do not celebrate it and as far as we know, she is celibate. Her business.” If you don’t talk about her sexuality, as far as you know, she’s celibate… how is it that she defines herself by her sexuality? The other closeted gay folks that you have surely encountered at some point in your life clearly don’t define themselves by their sexuality either.

          Additionally…. “I don;t think you can make a blanket statement on the other side and call it universal fact. ” My response to that is: Exactly! You can’t make a blanket statement on either side and call it universal fact.

          I truly am just trying to understand WHY and HOW opponents of this policy think as they do…

        • I don’t think I can help you Jeff. Whatever I say will be parsed as to be unrecognizable since it will not be quoted by a survey of an accepted group.

          I will try therefore to post a personal opinion that is mine alone and does not requires a posted study by a recognized government agency to support

          The Boy Scout Mission Statement:”The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.”

          Until the vote, homosexuality was incompatible with Scouting and I do not see how one vote changes that.

          I do not see how a sexually confused child or adolescent youth can be certain that he is romantically and sexually attracted.to other young boys. I believe homosexuality is an immoral behavior whether acted upon or not. I don’t see how it could possibly be an ethical of moral choice. I don’t see how it should be looked at as a value of the Scout Oath and Law. I cannot understand how a homosexual Scout could be “morally straight” or “clean.” I just cannot accept it as a rational choice or that choice be affirmed by leaders of high ethics and moral character.

          I don’t want the influence of homosexual thought around young children who believe it s a sin. I do not want children to be taught to affirm homosexual thought as normal and accepted.

          I believe we all have tendencies. and we suppress the negative ones. A Scout who believes he is homosexual would never openly admit it just a a Scout who had a tendency to steal or lie would not advertise or seek affirmation of that behavior. Now we are asked to accept and do all homosexual behavior and teach our Scoust it is as natural as hair color. At most, 6 in 100 people believe they are homosexual of all ages. In the city of 385,000 homosexuals of all ages. They can’t produce kids so these are by and large kids of heterosexual couples who believe they are homosexual. For ths small amount of kids, we have lowered the ethical and morals standards of a high morals and ethical standards character education organization.

          Why?

          BSA estimates it will lose 400,000 Scouts and that is acceptable. Money has to be a part of this decision. I do not believe there will be an influx of new Scouts ready to join now that homosexuals are allowed in.

          Lastly, i know BSA not consider the SM, ASM or CM, DL that is now in the woods with a situation of deciding how to tent homosexual and heterosexual Scouts with sexuality suddenly forced on you and being asked to counsel and manage activities you believe immoral. We tent two boys to a tent until they are 16 and/or a Life Scout. Buddy system and least experienced being the reason. I do not want training on how to accept homosexuals in Scouting and how to teach Christian boys to accept what they know as a sin as affirmed moral and ethical behavior.

          In Church, we would welcome any youth no matter what his sexual orientation and counsel him on how to not act on those tendencies and welcome him into the Church family. BSA is not a Church as so many of you have pointed out. What I believed it was an organization of high ethical and moral standards as exemplified by the Scout Oath and Law that created leaders of the same through character education supported by experienced adults of the same high ethical and moral standards has changed in my opinion.

          I don’t see how this decision makes Scouting stronger and will preserve long-term survival as an organization of high ethical and moral principles.

          Help me to see that by telling me the reason you support the revised proposal?

        • Fred, Thanks for sharing your opinion as opinion. The reasons I have for agreeing with the new policy have all been posted on this blog. I don’t want to try to change your mind, I just want to support all boys who want access to this great program. To me, sexual orientation is irrelevant since sex has no place in scouting. There no doubt will be hurdles to overcome, but to me worth it. But then again, I voted for Obama. I appreciate the freedom to disagree with you. God bless you Fred, and God bless the BSA.

        • Fred stated “…and since many posters here are not Scouts…”

          Fred, can you tell me which posters here are not Scouts?

  9. I can see this day coming in the BSA:

    The Department of Justice has been accused of religious intolerance and viewpoint discrimination after workers were sent an email directing them to verbally affirm homosexuality, according to a religious liberty law firm representing a DOJ whistleblower.

    Liberty Counsel said DOJ employees were emailed a brochure called “LGBT Inclusion at Work: The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Managers.” The brochure was created as a resource from DOJ Pride, an association of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender employees of the DOJ.

    A Department of Justice spokesperson did not return calls seeking comment. Fox News also reached out to DOJ Pride for comment – but emails were not answered. …

    Read more: http://janmorganmedia.com/2013/05/doj-tells-workers-to-verballly-affirm-their-homosexuality/#ixzz2UdtJWMxY

    • >>>>The Department of Justice has been accused of religious intolerance and viewpoint discrimination after workers were sent an email directing them to verbally affirm homosexuality, according to a religious liberty law firm representing a DOJ whistleblower.

      I found this article to be very confusing, at best. The headline says “DOJ Tells Workers to Verballly Affirm THEIR Homosexuality” (spelling error theirs), whereas the article says “workers were sent an email directing them to verbally affirm homosexuality”. The first sounds like it is advice specifically to LGBT folks under some kind of circumstance, whereas the second implies that the DOJ is asking EVERYONE to “affirm homosexuality”. There is a huge difference, and no references or details are given in the article to give context.

      Curious, I Googled it. I found the material in question here:
      http://libertycounsel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/LGBT_tips_for_managers.pdf
      The word “affirm” is nowhere in the document. The DOJ isn’t telling anyone to “affirm” anything.

      The document comes from “DOJ Pride, the Association of
      Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Employees
      of the U.S. Department of Justice and Their Allies “. So this is not the DOJ itself providing this information, but a group of DOJ employees doing so, which is quite a different thing. The information is simply the group’s suggestions as to how to professionally interact with LGBT employees in the workplace. Most employees who work for large companies in the private sector are given similar materials, to help them function alongside their LGBT co-workers. It’s pretty standard stuff in modern corporate America.

      Now, you may not agree with the suggestions, and that’s fine. Again, this isn’t coming from the DOJ, it’s coming from a group of DOJ workers.

      In the corporate world, in the military, and in government work, there may be *lots* of situations where your personal moral code or beliefs may conflict with the way your co-workers behave outside of the office (divorce, adultery, parenting issues, religious beliefs, etc.), but most folks are able to put those differences aside in the workplace to focus on common goals.

      I am certain that folks in Scouting, like their peers in churches, sports teams, and other youth activities, can handle the inclusion of boys who mention their same-sex attraction (remember, not behavior! not advocacy!), professionally, and with kindness and thoughtfulness for all the boys in their care.

      • OK EagleMom, is having you “Life Partner” speak on tolerance and inclusion, at your Eagle Ceremony come under “Behavior & Advocacy”? I was MC at this and the Council Camp Director was present as this youth was a camp staff member. What are we supposed to do as he was over 18 at the Ceremony. I only ask these questions as I have been there and done that.

        • Well under both the new and the old policies, at 18 he would be out regardless.

          In my local area (northeast), no one would bat an eyelid, but in some areas, it would be quite shocking, and that would probably play into how the troop handled it. But wouldn’t the troop be involved in choosing speakers for the ceremony? So presumably they knew in advance and could advise accordingly prior to the event? And presumably the majority of the audience who were invited were already aware of the boy’s orientation, and could choose to attend or not accordingly?

      • Okay, Eagle Mom. The point of the post was that the authorities in charge of acceptable speech (BSA paid leadership) could and i believe would allow an outside group (i.e. GLAAD) to assist in producing literature for training that would instruct Scout leaders (SM’s, ASM’s, CM’s, DL’s etc.) to be tolerant and understanding of the homosexual lifestyle and do not allow their personal religious beliefs to be heard in an open forum. BSA leadership is not equipped to deal with LGTB issues. Scouts would likewise also be told to not express any opinion on an openly homosexual Scout that is not positive and re-affirming. Religious beliefs deemed negative to the openly homosexual Scout would constitute bullying and be strictly forbidden. Heaven knows saying someone is having a bad hair day constitutes bullying to some posters.

        And how do you mention your same sex attraction without advocating for the lifestyle and affirming the behavior. Its who you are after all and being “:out” is what homosexual is all about right?

        BSA Mission: “The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.”

        All this will be happening in a program who sole purpose as defined as “preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices.” I am wondering now why BSA advertised character education on their logos.

        Definition of ETHICAL
        1: of or relating to ethics
        2: involving or expressing moral approval or disapproval
        3: conforming to accepted standards of conduct

        So, since the purpose of BSA is training boys to make ethical choices, I can ascertain that homosexuality in youth is now accepted standard of conduct and we should express moral approval. I know many of you supporters believe this is entirely appropriate. I also think you believe making ethical judgements is not appropriate. Your dilemma and Scouting’s for the future.

        Definition of MORAL
        1a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical
        b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior
        c : conforming to a standard of right behavior
        d : sanctioned by or operative on one’s conscience or ethical judgment

        e : capable of right and wrong action

        2: probable though not proved : virtual

        3: perceptual or psychological rather than tangible or practical in nature or effect

        So also, homosexuality in boys is now right behavior and teaching moral values would include homosexuality as a principle of right behavior. A homosexual boy is now conforming to a standard of right behavior. Leader will be asked to sanction ones ethical judgements to include homosexuality in boys. Homosexual boys will now become a moral agent through right behavior. Homosexuality in boys now becomes a moral certainty (probable but not proved) and homosexual advocates have their moral victory.

        It seem very clear to me the result of this proposal will be to re-define ethical and moral standards for the entire organization. This is further supported by the choice of the youngest parents and most immature Scouts over the more experienced Scouters who in the past have transferred the mantle of moral and ethical standards to the next generation. We will skip a generation and choose a population who when polled indicated their moral values had lowered and Scouting should lower theirs also. National leadership agreed and here we are on the precipice of change. This is why I am off the bus..

        Chip Turner is a man I respect very much and spoke with years ago when we re-started our Baptist Troop. I read his letter carefully. Those reasons he gave for staying I do not believe we as leaders will be able to accomplish. I believe BSA will place obstacles to Christian counseling of young boys even when asked. I pray that I am wrong. Chip Turner has dedicated decades of his life to Scouting and I would expect that he would try to find a way to maintain a Baptist presence in the organization. Do homosexual boys need counseling of currently established high moral and ethical standards? Yes. Will adult Baptist leaders of high moral and ethical standards as laid out in the Bible be able to express those standards to homosexuals boys. I think it would offend their parents and the jury is out and the answer undetermined at this point. Are all things possible through God? Absolutely! Chip Turner is a man of courage and is in opposition of the views of the leader of the denomination. I applaud his courage but BSA has never been a Church and I believe will soon not be a place where Christians can freely express their faith and share that faith with others unless they are a CLOSED Unit. We have Royal Ambassadors for Inreach. BSA was an outreach to introduce unchurched or non-member youth to our Church and promote high ethical and moral standards through character education. The Church financially supported the Troop of member and non-member Scouts through indoor facilities, vehicles and the outdoor program.

        BSA has been moving for years to enforce a non-denominational Great Spirit in the Sky nod to God to be inclusive. You can’t box my God in but you can shut him out of your organization.

        • As far as training materials -
          – If the BSA decides to produce training materials about gay kids in Scouting, I don’t think it matters all that much whether they ask for help from an outside organization like GLADD or not. If you are providing training about members of a minority group (gays, disabled folks, Hindus, ADD kids, whatever), it does make a certain amount of sense to consult members of the group to make sure your information is accurate. Ultimately, the BSA is responsible for whatever materials they decide to use, no matter who they have consulted in writing them.

          –If the BSA decides to produce training materials in line with their policy, they would be asking for understanding of same-sex *attraction*, not a ‘homosexual lifestyle”. They have made it clear that “Any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.”

        • As far as tolerance –

          –There are all kinds of situations where expressing one’s personal religious beliefs would be inappropriate in a Scouting setting. Jews, for example, do not eat pork. They may choose not to eat bacon in the dining hall, and they may advocate for the camp providing an alternative choice. But it would be inappropriate for Jewish Scouts to tell non-Jewish scouts that they should not eat bacon, or to make fun of them for doing so. Catholics do not allow divorce, but it would be inappropriate for a Catholic Scout to point out that another Scout’s parents are going against God by divorcing, or to lecture the troop on the evils of divorce. The vast majority of Scouts and Scouters handle these differences with grace, and have for over 100 years. A Scout is friendly, courteous, and kind; keeping these values in mind can help in these situations. Learning how to behave in a diverse group of people is part of what Scouting can teach a boy, and these skills will serve boys well as they become leaders in their communities, in the workplace or the military, as adults.

          –You said “being “out” is what homosexual is all about”. I don’t think that’s true at all. If you have homosexual friends and relatives, you’d know that it rarely comes up except in the sense that someone might mention that they are going to the movies with their boyfriend rather than a girlfriend.

          –I found that my Scout was exposed to all kinds of things in Scouting of which I did not approve; for example smoking cigarettes was rampant among Camp staff. He mentioned it to me, we discussed it, I expressed my beliefs on the matter (which was not news to my son, as we’d discussed it many times before). He chose to continue not to smoke, as I was confident he would. He was still able to work side-by-side with Scouts who chose to smoke, without it becoming an issue between them. The BSA neither endorsed nor forbid smoking. Camp staff was told that smoking was allowed, but they were not to do it in front of the young campers, and everyone seemed to be OK with that. Scouts gave my son the opportunity to observe all kinds of behavior in other Scouts which was, in my moral code, inappropriate, and to make good choices consistent with the values he learned at home.

          As in the example of smoking, Scouting gives a FRAMEWORK and ENCOURAGEMENT for choosing moral behavior, but it is the FAMILY who fills in the details specific to their religious and cultural beliefs as to what is moral and what is not in a given situation. It is NOT the BSA’s job to tell boys what is and is not moral – that is MY job. It’s the BSA’s job to create a culture in which boys are striving to meet the moral standards set by their families, their communities, and their churches. For over 100 years, individual Scouts have found fellowship, despite differences in their personal moral beliefs. I am convinced they can continue to do so under the new policy.

        • So you would be happy with GLAAD producing training materials for Scouting. I thought so.

          That was the whole point. You got it and responded as I expected.

          As to the rest which is well-written but only point needs to be clarified; Eagle Mom said: “It is NOT the BSA’s job to tell boys what is and is not moral – that is MY job”

          Please read below:

          MISSION OF THE BOY SCOUTS

          The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and MORAL choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

          SCOUT OATH

          On my honor I will do my best
          To do my duty to God and my country
          and to obey the Scout Law;
          To help other people at all times;
          To keep myself physically strong,
          mentally awake, and MORALLY straight

          So, BSA is not supposed to teach high moral standards? Is this another policy that you disagree with that will not be changed to read:

          “prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices as approved by their parents or pop culture?”

          “A Scout is WHAT HE THINKS is morally straight. No standard except his?

          Morals education has no place in Scouting? Too judgmental?

          That’s what I mean. I encouraged my son to join Scouts and i joined myself because it represented an organization of high ethical and moral standards and included character education.” I didn’t ask them what they were because it seemed apparent to all of the parents at the time it was of a higher measure. Not so anymore apparently. A number of the parents in the Troop put their kids in for the same reason. BSA stood for high moral values and character education, not the run of mill club for boys. Why else would you put your child in an organization that would not make him a person of high ethical and moral standards? Its obvious a common moral standard of any degree has been lost. My how things have changed.

          I have never attended a Camp where youth were allowed to smoke and were dismissed if caught. Your area is even more open than I thought.

        • >>>>I have never attended a Camp where youth were allowed to smoke and were dismissed if caught. Your area is even more open than I thought.

          Let me clarify. I am not sure if Camp staff under 18 were allowed to smoke. I DO know that the adult Camp staff was allowed to smoke, and many did so, frequently. They did not smoke in front of the campers, but they DID smoke, on a regular basis, in front of the 15-year-old CIT’s and other under-18 Scouts who were on Camp staff.

          I personally was shocked that adult BSA staff would do so, as I believe it sets a very bad example for our youth, and thus is immoral behavior. CIT’s in particular are still very young. However, I cannot expect the BSA to enforce every detail of my family’s religious and moral beliefs on all of their Scouts and employees, especially in areas where various religious and cultural belief systems have different rules about smoking.

          For example, some Christians feel smoking is forbidden, based on the idea of one’s body as a temple of God. Other Christians feel it is an individual choice; not advisable from a health standpoint, but, they feel, not a moral issue. Similarly, some may interpret a Scout being “clean” as being tobacco-free; others may not. As far as I know, the BSA does not take a stand for or against smoking.

          It is the BSA’s job to encourage the pursuit of moral behavior in general, but it is MY job, with the help of my church, to provide my child with *specific* instruction on the details of the behavior expected from him.

        • >>>>So you would be happy with GLAAD producing training materials for Scouting. I thought so.

          I would think it only common sense that when developing training materials about LGBT people, the BSA would consult with some actual LGBT people. Not allow them to dictate the entire contents of the training – that’s the BSA’s job. But you can’t teach about LGBT people without listening to them first.

          I would also expect the BSA to listen to folks who have religious concerns about any such training.

        • You think GLAAD is a responsible organization worth consulting for advice?

        • >>>>You think GLAAD is a responsible organization worth consulting for advice?

          In short, no, I don’t think they’re the right organization for the job.

          GLADD is an advocacy organization, and their mission is mostly focused on the area of challenging inaccurate or stereotypical depictions of LGBT people in the media. Their mission statement is “GLAAD amplifies the voice of the LGBT community by empowering real people to share their stories, holding the media accountable for the words and images they present, and helping grassroots organizations communicate effectively. By ensuring that the stories of LGBT people are heard through the media, GLAAD promotes understanding, increases acceptance, and advances equality.”

          I don’t think that preparing training materials is GLADD’s area of expertise. I’m guessing that there are organizations that are better suited to the task.

          In addition, I think that since GLADD has been very vocal in the movement to change the BSA’s policy, it would only fan the flames of the controversy to hire them to consult with the BSA. So no, I don’t think they’re the ideal choice in this case.

          Many large companies have already dealt with this challenge, and much can be learned from what they did well and not so well along the way. I’m sure there are organizations that specialize in this sort of thing, or experienced individuals that have consulted with other companies on similar tasks..

          Ideally, stories of prior positive and negative experiences of Scouts and Scouters around this issue would also be solicited, as they would reflect the specific challenges that may occur within Scouting.

          In addition, I’d want to be sure that representatives of conservative Christian organizations were consulted, to help craft policies and procedures that reflect their specific concerns. The LDS church and the Catholic church come to mind as key stakeholders.

          Should LGBT people be consulted when creating policy & procedures for LGBT youth? Absolutely. Is GLADD the right organization to do that work? No, I think there are better choices out there.

        • Thoughtful response EagleMom. Some good thoughts in there.

          So, you believe Transgenders are now okay in the new BSA? Bi-sexual’s also. We are becoming a more open membership.

          Companies that dealt with this issue were dealing with adults that needed to work. Not the same with impressionable youth.

          With no common ground, it will be very difficult for BSA to form a coherent policy that does not restrict Christian speech which by its very nature is offensive to LGTB people. We’ll see who compromises but I can guess. How about bi-sexual tendencies. I’m guessing MIke’s Venture Crew will have to deal with that.

        • “…Christian speech which by its very nature is offensive to LGTB people”. Again Fred, how in the heck would you know? I have many Christian gay friends! Or is your definition of Christianity the only “real” one? What makes you so special? You undermine your (occasionally) well reasoned arguments with ignorant broad statements like this. Cut it out.

        • There is only one Gospel Jeff. I can fine-tune the comment to make it only those offended if it will help. You are not saying none are offended. are you?

          On an recent thread, we debated the interpretation of the Gospel for a long time. I think I can boil it down to one question. Where does it say in the Gospel that a person who is a practicing lesbian, homosexual, transgender or bi-sexual person having sex out of marriage will find favor in the eyes of God?

          Does he love them? yes! Do I love them? Yes! Will I support and enable their sexual behavior? No. That doesn’t mean I will “hate” them. It just means I will not enable and support their behavior and condone it for them. That will be offensive to those who are comfortable in their skin being who they are.

          You know what? In America, they have that right and I would never try to deny their constitutional rights. I just do not want them leading or teaching my kids ethical and moral principles.

        • Got that. And I have no problem with that belief, but in your statement “…Christian speech which by its very nature is offensive to LGTB people”. you are assuming you know what LGTB people think. And I can almost guarantee you that you don’t. (That is only a guess, as I am not even one LGBT person, much less all of them – as your statement suggests.) Again I ask. Don’t make stuff up to support your cause. It only hurts you, and Scouts as a whole. “A Scout is Trustworthy…”

        • Not even close. You overstated in order to falsely support your erroneous argument.

        • Its a fruitless pursuit Jeff. keep posting as long as you like. You can think what you like.

        • @Fred Cooper
          >>>>Thoughtful response EagleMom. Some good thoughts in there.

          Thanks. I appreciate that.

          >>>>So, you believe Transgenders are now okay in the new BSA?

          Good question. I was using the term “LGBT”, but that’s not accurate, is it? As far as I know, the BSA hasn’t addressed the issue of inclusion of transgendered kids at all, whether they are male-to-female or female-to-male. So the term “LGBT” is not really appropriate in the context of this conversation. I will try to be more precise with my language!

          >>>>Bi-sexual’s also. We are becoming a more open membership….How about bi-sexual tendencies. I’m guessing MIke’s Venture Crew will have to deal with that.

          Well, the BSA hasn’t addressed the issue of bisexuality, but I think it’s safe to assume that if boys who are attracted to girls are welcome, and boys who are attracted to boys are welcome, it stands to reason that boys who are attracted to both boys and girls would also be welcome, under the same restrictions on behavior of course.

          >>>>Companies that dealt with this issue were dealing with adults that needed to work. Not the same with impressionable youth.

          True. The BSA’s task is in some ways trickier than a company trying to navigate this path with their employees. However, many other youth organizations are also facing these issues. Hopefully, by learning from others’ mistakes, the BSA can do a fairly decent job of laying out some ground rules to address the concerns of various stakeholders throughout the organization.

          >>>>With no common ground, it will be very difficult for BSA to form a coherent policy that does not restrict Christian speech which by its very nature is offensive to LGTB people. We’ll see who compromises but I can guess.

          But there is common ground; lots of it. There is the common love of the outdoors and scouting activities. And there is the common goal of striving to meet one’s own religion’s moral standards, even while working alongside people who live by a different moral code. Scouts have been doing this for a hundred years, all around the world. A little grace on both sides will go a long way to making this work.

          A Jewish Scout doesn’t tell a Christian Scout that he ought not be eating bacon, and a Christian Scout makes sure there’s an alternative choice for breakfast. A majority-Hindu Scout troop doesn’t kick out a Christian Scout for believing in only one God, and a majority-Christian Scout troop doesn’t kick out a Hindu Scout for believing in many. If we keep in mind that a Scout is kind and friendly, it will all work out. That’s been the experience of many, many people over here in the northeast, where this kind of thing is taken in stride. I have faith that the fine people involved with the BSA can rise to the challenge.

      • Bill, are you saying that a young man who was having his Eagle Ceremony after he had turned 18 had a “Life Partner” speak about tolerance? I take it that this was one of those situations where nobody knew he had a “Life Partner” as he was completing his Eagle requirements. That’s a whole different matter and is not what the BSA’s policy change advocates!
        This case sounds more like someone who is gay, is practicing the gay lifestyle and who is using his Eagle ceremony to promote his advocacy of his lifestyle through having his “Life Partner” deliver an “in your face” speech on tolerance and inclusion.
        I can see what that couple were trying to do but I can’t agree with them. Actively practicing the gay lifestyle is incompatible with Scouting policy. This is why the ban on gay scout leaders is still in place. Quite honestly, this couple sound like gay rights activists. This would be where I draw the line. I don’t equate what they are doing to denying an 11 or even 15 year old the right to be in Scouting simply because of sexual preference. That’s the critical difference!

        • Ahoy Steve. This happened several years ago and I wasn’t up to “speed” on what a “Life Partner” speaking on tolerance and acceptance was all about. I guess I’m “Old School Scouting” and not with the current culture.
          I’ll see the Council Camp Director, who was in attendence at the Eagle Ceremony, on Thursday at the Annual Business Meeting & Silver Beaver Recognition Reception and will ask some unanswered questions. I see this “Eagle Scout’s” parents once a year and am torn whether to bring this up. I for one, am ready to “stick a fork in this discussion” I still have fun teaching skills I have learned in 67 years on earth and respect everybody that comes aboard. I think I have a lot I can share with youth. I will probably need training, but that’s par for the course. YISS Bill Sharp

        • Hi Bill! I think you’re correct… this conversation is ‘done.’ Thanks for your service to Scouting, and your willingness to share what you have with all comers.

  10. The gay supporters left BSA years ago. Now the anti-gay folks are clamoring to leave. Who, exactly, does BSA National think will be left? Mormons?

  11. Regular old guys like me…..

    I go to church on Sunday go to work on monday and understand that this will probably never affect me…..

    If it does, I will deal with in a fair and non judgmental manner. I am sure there will be training coming up and I will follow what ever those guidelines say…..

    I am here for the right reasons….the boys in the hood

    No political or religious agenda

    • Trying to write training and guidelines about sexuality while remaining politically and religiously neutral is a recipe for disaster. BSA was foolish to ever touch the subject. Even regular old guys like you will eventually tire of the three-ring-circus and all the distraction from true Scouting that will result.

      • Once you remove a persons bias one way or the other a frank discussion is simple enough. Just like YPT now.

        • BSA can’t remain unbiased and at the same time maintain its message that all homosexual behavior is immoral. That message remains the legal basis for its ban of adult gays from membership.

  12. No matter what is stated on this forum, the National Council has there way, they wanted to present that the BSA is like the World Brotherhood of Scouting. I appreciate the remarks of Fred Cooper, Trenton Spears, and a few others. I too live in the south. Texas is in the south but we don’t believe we think or act like southerns, we believe we are in our own world. It’s apparent that the none-religious people are gaining in other parts of the US. Most Texans are independent thinkers, that work, have family, appreciate the outdoors, believe in the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Ten Commandments. Texans don’t like a large controlling government, aka the nanny state of the radical Liberal Progressives. We are definitely Old School and don’t change our ideas every time the wind blows in a different direction. And we have always wanted freedom. I’ve been thinking every day about the May 23, 2013 decision, I’ve got many knots and lots of camping experiences. I’m not sure if the decision will effect my grandkids in Scouting. At this point I’m sure it won’t be a good change, it will be a like an incurable disease and Scouting will die. I’m hoping that Scouting will continue in spite of the bad decision.

    • ” Texans don’t like a large controlling government”

      So Texans were in favor of the local option, then? Letting each CO do, or not do, what it sees fit with regard to sexuality always seemed like the best option to me; I was disappointed when BSA national gave up on that idea. Local option for non-Scout-essential topics seems like the best option for freedom.

    • “the National Council has there way, they wanted to present that the BSA is like the World Brotherhood of Scouting”

      And what would be wrong with that?

  13. db Your explanation is as best a cop out. What you are stating is the policy of no questioning a person sexuality which is true and I support. The Supreme Court in 2000 granted to the BSA that the exclusion of homosexuals was Constitutional and that excluding homosexuals is the policy of the BSA and homosexuals then, now and up to January 1st 2014 were excluded from the BSA. db you have failed to as Mike says to educate me you have not produced any evidence from the BSA that homosexuals in the BSA was approved by the BSA silent or otherwise in any form or document and there is no directive or Executive order giving approval for a homosexual scout or scout leader to remain silent on or breaking the ban on the exclusion of homosexuals. What you are stating is most certainly beyond the measure of honesty and at best a personal wish to support an untruth that is in the secret bubble of dishonesty that I have stated. db you Scout Mom and Mike do not like this terminology and I welcome your attacks on truth. The more you attack me the more determine I am to respond to you and your path of deception and misinformation. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

    • Trenton, your posts are becoming increasingly strident and incoherent. Take a deep breath.

      What you call attacks on truth may well be attacks, but not on truth. Just on the personal morality you incorrectly ascribe to the BSA as a whole. You lead a fairly narrow-minded and intolerant life and I feel sorry for you.

      • Mike you not only tell me how to think you also tell me how to breath along with telling me how a life that I should lead. Mike I breath just fine, I climb Mt. Whitney every three years with my boy scouts. Please don’t feel sorry for me as a 76 yr. old I am doing just fine and tolerate life just fine I have to admit that I get under your skin and you have to reduce yourself to name calling and attacking my moral character and my defending the honor of the BSA and its timeless values that you say is no more than a phase of no meaning. Just because I believe that homosexuality is a sin does not make me narrow minded or a homophobe as you describe me. I have millions of Christians behind me and thousands of Scouters supporting me. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • I’m with you Trenton. Your stance is principled and sound and does require a survey or study to support it.

        • i think we’re getting to the root of the issue. Trenton is 76 years old. Fred is somewhere near 60 years old (he’s married 32 years). My dad would be upset, too, if he were alive. This is a generational issue as well as a religious issue. The scout leaders on this list that are younger are less uptight about this whole thing. They are willing to adapt and adjust. We’ve known gay friends for a couple of decades now and don’t believe in they are boogeymen. Times change. In 1920, women couldn’t vote. In the 1970′s, they couldn’t be scout leaders. Both of those things are a given now. In a decade, this issue will be moot and we’ll be ashamed the BSA ever behaved the way it did.

        • db. so my being 76 years old is the root of the issue. You believe that being younger makes you the best advocate for the BSA. Being supportive of the traditions of the last 103 years makes me less of a voice for BSA standards. I am not ready for retirement or the grave as you would have me be. I am not ready to throw out the time honored laws of the Scout Oath and Scout law db these promises will never be compatible with homosexuality and will be dropped in order to please the homosexual agenda. db I will climb Mt Whitney with my troop on July 28th after I return from the National Jamboree on July 24th at the Summit db care to come and climb with an old man. Sincerely Trenton Spears

        • db, yes we will look back and be ashamed just as we did that it took BSA so long to be integrated.

        • Todd Kunze I reaffirm my position If I knew that homosexuals were allowed in the BSA in the 1980s I would not have been in Scouting period. The BSA supported exclusion then and if I had the authority to campaign to ban homosexuality I would have why to help support the BSA policy banning homosexuals from scouting. Thank God I did not have too the BSA did it for me and millions like me. The BSA will have to make changes to the program to accommodate and make it compatible for homosexual’s. Back then what ever that means the issue of homosexuals was not on most peoples agenda except for the Homosexual Scout leaders suing to be remain in Scouting so Todd there is a ban against homosexuals supported by the Supreme Court 13 years ago. It had to be settled by the Supreme Court in 2000 and the BSA had to spend millions to exclude homosexuals I guess the BSA were homophobes then and the continued exclusion of adult homosexuals makes them homophobes now. ” Please read this message from the homosexual-rights group GLAAD said it and other like-minded activist groups will now encourage “gay” youth to participate in the Boy Scouts. But spokesman Ross Murray said “the ban on gay adult leaders is still a major barrier for many families and organizations.” He hopes, the Washington Post reported, that as homosexual youth “demonstrate their dedication to the program; hopefully it can change the culture of the organization from the inside.” Change the culture by homosexuals from the inside if that isn’t scary I don’t know what is . Todd this is more than just getting along it is the future of the last remaining youth character building and moral attributes in America. Most people have said the homosexuals need to form their own Scout program. Well now they don’t have to the BSA has given them the BSA on a silver platter by 854 votes by a group of biased delegates on May 23rd 2013. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • “Most people have said the homosexuals need to form their own Scout program.” The same was said and done about African Americans before integration.

          BSA is only halfway there Trenton. I have no problem with homosexual leaders. I don’t discriminate against them either.

        • Todd Kunze so you are ok with adult homosexual leaders. Where in the new proposal does the BSA approve of homosexual adult leaders. It looks like they still discriminate and the last message I heard from the BSA was that the issue was closed for now and no further changes were in the horizon. So my question for you is if you know that a adult homosexual leader either is in the BSA or trying to join the BSA what would be your response be. I know what the BSA response would be they according to their past stands and Court rulings they would ask the adult homosexual to leave. If not what is left in the BSA for the future, follow the money and toss out the values for the last 103 years. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • ah that explains it….

          Just as my 80 year old parents hate anyone who doesn’t look like them, live like them or worship like them.

          As a mere 50 year old, I guess I am just more open minded.

        • Bob Basement so discrimination against homosexuals is not ok but discrimination against senior citizens is. Your attack on me is a disgrace and is typical of when you can’t attack the message you turn and attack the messenger. Trenton Spears old but will never give up the truth.

        • Not discriminating…..

          You just sound exactly like my 80 year old parents….

          They hate just about everything that isn’t exactly like them…..

          I would suggest counseling, but I doubt anyone would take a 80 year old.

          In 10 years, after all the old timers are either in nursing homes or died off, gay adults will be allowed in the BSA.

          Just that simple.

          With two deep leadership it will be a non issue.

        • Bob I feel sorry for your parents to have such a disrespectful son and what do they have to do with the BSA. My great parents our gone and I miss them dearly. I would never disgrace them the way you have done to yours. You say you do not discriminate your words betray you. There is a saying let a fool speak long enough and the world will know they are a fool. Stick to the issues and stop discriminating a against senior citizens. Trenton Spears

        • “So my question for you is if you know that a adult homosexual leader either is in the BSA or trying to join the BSA what would be your response be.”

          I’d ask them first if they knew my hair stylist who is gay. Not stereotyping here, its true.

          Seriously though, nothing. Those decisions are WAY above my pay grade. Remember, I’m a volunteer. BSA does not pay me to “fire” people.

        • Todd Kunze Lets get serious you could not fire anyone in scouting nor neither can I. I would stand by the policies of the BSA that excludes homosexual membership in the BSA and not cover for a person that could not live up to the Scout Oath and Law. Have you ever advanced a homosexual scout I don’t even know of one so I have not been placed in that position. Did you ever hide the adult homosexual membership from the parents of your scouts again I don’t know of any adult homosexuals in scouting, The adult homosexual could not pass the youth protection therefore could not participate in any scout function. A few of the bloggers have said that they know of Homosexuals in Scouting and watched as they advanced the scout also they stated that they knew of homosexual scouters in scouting and ignored the knowledge and the ban anyway. I support laws because they are necessary for a civil society. I support the BSA laws because they are necessary. Sincerely Trenton Spears

        • Trenton Spears says: “The adult homosexual could not pass the youth protection therefore could not participate in any scout function. ” Trenton, can you cite the specific provision(s) at issue? I would like to review exactly what they say.

        • Mike C’mon. A homosexual man by Policy should not even be taking it. So, any argument is invalid even with the revised policy.

        • Fred, you need to read the actual words if you want to make an intelligent post. Trenton said “could not pass”, not “should not take”. My question is valid. Your response is a nonsequitur.

        • Keep chewing on it, it’ll come to you.

          The adult homosexual couldn’t pass it because he is not qualified to take it. Homosexual adult leaders are incompatible with Scouting and therefore COULD NOT TAKE the test honestly and COULD NOT PASS since by their very presence they are in violation of Boy Scout Policy which includes Youth Protection Training.

          I don’t think he meant pass/fail on a particular question and I do not have time to go review ever question to satisfy your understanding of why my argument above is valid and logical. Ask Trenton what he meant. My answer is above.

        • Fred, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. You think your answer is valid and logical. I think it is neither. You call to mind the old quote (Churchill, I think) that Britain and the US are two countries separated by a common language. You and I both use the same words, but the meaning you give to them comes from somewhere far away from where most of us live.

        • I think you’re right Mike. You will not accept that my words are valid to prove the point that the premise of “passing a test” is invalid when the homosexual can’t take the test in the first place.

        • So much for not advocating for a political cause or action. Think they’ll be disciplined in any way? NO. Think there is more and worse flamboyant behavior to come? YES! Think anyone on the pro-policy change on this lost will care? No sure but don’t believe so. Scouting for All has the rainbow patch you can accessorize with and pretty cheap.

          http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/02/18699493-boy-scouts-defy-orders-wear-uniforms-in-utah-gay-pride-parade?lite

        • “the BSA has given them the BSA on a silver platter by 854 votes by a group of biased delegates on May 23rd 2013. Sincerely, Trenton Spears”

          Trenton, please explain to us the grand conspiracy that caused 854 people to vote the way they did? Were secret payments of cash made? Were leaders photographed in compromising situations and blackmailed? Exactly how did the BSA bias these people? The vote went down the way it did fair and square.

        • “The adult homosexual could not pass the youth protection therefore could not participate in any scout function.”

          How could they not pass it? I’ve taken the test several times, its not that difficult and the gay people that I know are pretty darn smart.

          “A few of the bloggers have said that they know of Homosexuals in Scouting and watched as they advanced the scout also they stated that they knew of homosexual scouters in scouting and ignored the knowledge and the ban anyway. I support laws because they are necessary for a civil society. I support the BSA laws because they are necessary.”

          Last time I checked BSA does not have the legal authority to make laws. If you are talking Scout Law, no where does it say anything about sexuality. BSA makes policies and I happen to disagree with just one that is discriminating and therefore in direct conflict with the Scout Law. Discrimination is not friendly, courteous, kind, nor cheerful. Asking people to hide who they are for fear of retribution is not installing trustworthiness. My faith espouses inclusiveness so discrimination flies in the face of being reverent. Discrimination conflicts with 50% of the Scout Law the way I see it. When an organization has a policy that conflicts with several of their stated beliefs then I must be brave enough to point that out. Homosexual leaders will eventually be accepted just as women leaders were finally accepted and just as BSA finally embraced integration.

  14. District committee meeting this evening….

    The damages…..4 Adults resigned…..

    NO UNITS…..All units including the local southern baptist unit are staying.

    hmmmm, so much for doom and gloom

    • Bob,
      How many total adults in the district? What percentage then is the 4? Probably in the single digits?

      • Heck I don’t know……probably a couple of hundred, .Less than 1% would be a good guess.

    • Bob…those were just the initial brave souls. There will be many more to follow across the nation as it does take time to wrap up commitments from the pre-5/23/13 (or B.H. if you like) era of Scouting.

        • Ironically on the other end of the spectrum…the CA senate just passed a resolution to dissolve the BSA’s non-profit status due to it’s inconsistent policy between youth and adult members. It still has a few more steps before it passes fully.

          What were those words Bob used? …Oh yeah, doom and gloom.

          …and so it begins.

    • We had our Spring Rally the night before the vote and one week later, after the vote was announced, we have 6 new boys and two new adult leaders.

      Roundtable is next week so more will be learned. From what I can gather now, none of the Scouters I know have resigned.

      • Just for kicks and giggles DLDW, I’d had one ASM resign in the Troop and a very vocal parents meeting tonight with all but one against the current policy. Will not know until we complete Summer Camp. A bunch of unhappy campers right now.

  15. Can’t we all just get along? It’s not going to be any different now than it was pre 1990s before there was a ban. Trenton and Fred, you guys were around then, right? Why leave now when things are just half way back to pre 1990s? Did you guys campaign back then to instill the ban? Did you say back then you’d leave unless a ban was enacted?

  16. I’m in Kansas and I checked with our DE yesterday. So far, no CO’s are pulling out of our District. Will there be fallout that will give us headaches from this decision? Oh yeah. The good news is that most adults are realizing that Scouting is still here. The boys are still here and they still need Scouting. Scouting needs adult scouters! Life goes on. Now, pardon me if I seem somewhat brusque but I have a troop that is preparing for summer camp, an event this weekend that needs six volunteer scouts, a summer cub scout day camp that needs to be finalized, training at PTC in June for my new DC position, planning and executing our rather ambitious recruiting drive/promotional event for August and that doesn’t include the recruiting of Unit Commissioners to fill the needed slots that needs to be done by September. Forgive me if I don’t spend any more time worrying about whether someone is upset about the BSA’s decision. You’re big boys and girls… you can make your own choices as to whether you are leaving or staying. I’d hate to see you leave because we NEED your experience but as I said, I need to get back to business. I’ve got a LOT to do in the next three months to insure another great year for our scouts!

  17. Thanks to Wayne Brock for creating the first ever ‘protected class’ in BSA. The Scouting family now knows that the ‘key three’ do not hold to the same standards as we do, and will not for the rest of the changes he thinks need to happen next.
    Please remember how this all started in secret before the beans got spilled that this change was coming…. and it did.

    • The new policy was voted in by a clear majority, none of whom, as I understand it, were paid staff of the BSA.

      • The voters were not paid staff, correct. And it was a majority. The interesting thing, though, that it was not enough of a majority to comply with the bylaws at 66% (2/3rds majority).
        I just think that is interesting.

        • They were voting on a policy change, not an amendment to the bylaws. Such an amendment would require 2/3, but other matters do not.

      • EagleMom Here is the latest on the exodus of scouting from the BSA. Please read.
        Churches sever ties with Boy Scouts Published: 4 hours ago today May 30th 2013
        ‘We cannot be distracted from the mission God has called us to’
        (ABC NEWS) A number of churches that previously sponsored Boy Scout troops have said they plan to sever ties to the organization following its decision to lift a longtime national ban on admitting openly gay Scouts. Openly gay adults will still be barred from leadership roles in the organization.
        “I think I can say with pretty strong accuracy that the vast majority of Southern Baptists are very disappointed in the latest change in policy … deeply disappointed,” Frank Page, president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s executive committee, told ABCNews.com.
        Page said that the Southern Baptist Convention — the largest Protestant denomination in the United States — would be holding its national meeting in two weeks, after which it would likely recommend that its 47,000 U.S. churches pull away from the Boy Scouts of America. From there, it is up to each individual church to decide what to do, said Page.
        Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/05/churches-sever-ties-with-boy-scouts/#Fi1IxFgz8J5tezt7.99
        Eagle mom, Mike , Bob Basement, db and all the rest of you celebrators of homosexuals in scouting I rest my case. Trenton Spears

        • Todd I see no hate here only facts that you don’t want to hear. Please stop the labeling of truth as hate. My Mom bless her heart always said if you don’t like the heat get out of the kitchen. Todd don’t assume that people who do not agree with you are hatemongers and homophobes. Attacking the messenger will not stop the message. Lies soon die but truth lives forever. Trenton Spears

        • The hate I was referring to was in the comments by people posted below the article.

      • EagleMom you believe in the majority and so do I. How do you feel about the BSA survey that they sent to Parents Scout leaders prior to the vote on May 23 2013 60% said do not lift the ban on homosexuals. The 854 delegates ignored the survey and voted to lift the ban anyway. The BSA will reap what they harvest. Eagle mom I know you are deeply committed that all boys should be a scout and as a Boy Scout Recruiter for 12 years that is my passion also. The difference for me is that I will not give up quality for quantity. Having said this I feel the BSA was using the every boy needs to be in scouting as reason to open the gates for inclusion for adult homosexuals as scout leaders. The large donors who blackmailed the BSA by denying funds will still blackmail the BSA until the GLBT is admitted to the BSA I have no sympathy for the BSA the survey tried to tell them so. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • Karen,
          I’m pretty sure this reference was about the suggestion that BSA made the decision to try to reverse the corporate funding drop – not about the salary of volunteers.

        • There was a sequence that you may have missed. It was a contention that paid professionals had made a decision; followed by the correction that the decision was made by volunteers; followed by a contention that the people who made the decision were paid in “30 pieces of silver”; followed by my statement. No, I don’t think I was confused.

        • I didn’t miss it. There were two different comments. One did say professionals.

        • The ~1400 people who voted were not professionals, not paid. They were volunteers. Like the rest of us.

        • Right – the one that said professionals was wrong. I was not commenting on that post.

        • Concerned About Youth. About funding here is the latest on the great vote to lift the homosexual youth scouts ban in scouting.The California Senate voted on Wednesday May 29th 2013 to approve a measure that would strip the Boy Scouts of America of its tax-exempt status, along with other public charity youth groups that discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, among other protected statuses.
          In his floor speech on the measure, bill sponsor state Sen. Ricardo Lara (D) noted that, unlike the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, 4-H clubs, Boys & Girls of America and YMCA are all open to gay members. Ricardo went on to argue that the organization’s anti-gay policy violates California law.
          If the measure is signed into law, [ the Boy Scouts will have to pay taxes on membership dues, donations and all fundraising activities.]
          The Boy Scouts voted last week to lift the ban on openly gay scouts, but the organization’s policy against gay leadership remains intact.

          Not a good moment for Scouting is it. Looks like the National Board has stirred up a hornets nest of militant homosexual in your face politicians. The National should have listened to the National survey that requested the National Board not to lift the ban a 60% majority. Sincerely Trenton Spears

        • Yep – agree. The LGBT community has been crying pretty loudly about tax exempt status for organizations – and churches in particular over their involvement in politics. The problem is they don’t understand the law. They are not allowed to campaign for individuals or to support individuals or their parties. They are allowed to support issues and legistation.
          This bit by California is just another example of the hypocrasy of the situation. California has many organizations that actively campaign and even discriminate – particularly against religion (also a protected class – not just in the state, but federally). They are just showing that hatred, bigotry, discrimination, etc is only a problem if it’s not their hatred, bigotry and discrimination.

        • Concerned about Scouts, I agree with you. I think California is trying circumvent federal law and can to a certain degree and your are right, they are all about protecting “correct” speech in their view. What a wacky state to live in. Completely ignore lawbreakers on immigration and recreational drugs and try to criminalize and punish through taxation the freedom of expression and right of Association for those with “incorrect” speech at the same time. Love the last statement. The other side throws around derogatory comments so often and never looks in the mirror.

        • “The California Senate voted on Wednesday May 29th 2013 to approve a measure that would strip the Boy Scouts of America of its tax-exempt status, along with other public charity youth groups that discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, among other protected statuses.
          In his floor speech on the measure, bill sponsor state Sen. Ricardo Lara (D) noted that, unlike the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, 4-H clubs, Boys & Girls of America and YMCA are all open to gay members. Ricardo went on to argue that the organization’s anti-gay policy violates California law.
          If the measure is signed into law, [ the Boy Scouts will have to pay taxes on membership dues, donations and all fundraising activities.]
          The Boy Scouts voted last week to lift the ban on openly gay scouts, but the organization’s policy against gay leadership remains intact.

          Not a good moment for Scouting is it. Looks like the National Board has stirred up a hornets nest of militant homosexual in your face politicians. The National should have listened to the National survey that requested the National Board not to lift the ban a 60% majority. Sincerely Trenton Spears”

          The California Senate would have voted the same way had we left the complete ban in place. Until BSA stops discriminating completely there will be legal issues either in California or other states. BSA has to realize this and hopefully will not waste our donations in fighting it. come to think of it, maybe I will just donate $ to my troop so that at least my donation will not be wasted with lawyers. I can see where it’s going then.

        • Todd Kunze Senator Ricardo Lara (D) CA Sponsored this bill and it was filed based on the BSA not completely lifting the ban on homosexual scouts and leaders in the program. The BSA should not have lifted the ban and would have won in court based on the Supreme Court ruling in 2000 . Any law that would take away the tax exempt status would also be defeated based on the same ruling in 2000 they are private organization therefore could set their own policies. The vote on May 23, 2013 triggered the opportunity for Laras bill based on discrimination allowing him to advance the bill. The vote clearly discriminated because it chose based on selection which homosexual group would be allowed to be into the BSA. The National Board thought that the vote on allowing youth homosexuals would end the issue it only opened the door for a problem that will cost the BSA dearly. Discrimination has become a new policy for the current BSA leadership look at the survey that was submitted to the National by 60% requesting the National Board to not lift the ban. Why did they even send out the survey is a complete mystery to me and thousands of other Parents /Scouters that thought they had a voice on the future of the BSA. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • Trenton- the BSA won the right to set its own membership policies when they went to the Supreme Court. But just because we won the right, the court didn’t say that everyone else has to agree and accept them. Nor did the court say we made wise membership policies. The GSUSA chose a different route. For the vast majority of the country, the GSUSA is still respected and admired. A small subset objects and decided they needed the AHG. The BSA chose a different course. The BSA misjudged and followed a divisive path. It has severely damaged its brand and reputation. The California legislature can do whatever it feels is right for the citizens of the state of California. Just because the Supreme Court gave us the right to punish kids and discriminate, doesn’t mean its morally right to do so. It’s like ugly and hateful speech. The court will support the first amendment for the those who want to espouse hate speech. But the hate speech isn’t morally right. The Supreme Court isn’t going to tell others they can’t shun and despise you for your hate speech. You seem to think that the 2000 Dale decision was a blessing that gives us license to do whatever we want. It was not. It has turned out to be a curse.

        • I don’t know why it would be a mystery. The survey explained its purpose; other announcements from National explained the steps in the process clearly; the purpose of the survey was explained again in the results document. The survey was part of a- listening phase, during the time that the actual resolution was being developed. It was only one aspect of that listening phase; another aspect was the meetings in councils & districts, and another was the feedback form on the national website (and similar feedback forms on many council websites). It assessed a number of factors in addition to support for the policy: e.g., what particular situations caused people to move in one direction or the other, what the strength of support was, and others factors. No place did anyone ever say that the survey was a national referendum. In fact, the resolution that was under consideration when the survey was given was quite different from the one that was eventually adopted. I don’t think there was any mystery to the process at all — it was clearly announced in a number of places.

      • EagleMom, you should look up who a delegate was in your Council. Chances are you will not be told who they were or how they voted, just like my DE told us. We were not told how our Council, whom we are supposed to support, would vote.
        The delegates were told how they were expected to vote on the issue. None of the Charter Execs were asked what they thought about it. Sure, you could make a comment.
        The Councils all face ‘upward’ toward National, unlike Scouters , who deliver the program.
        Again, 61% of Scouters wanted to keep the current policy, 60% plus delegates voted for it. For the protected class that cannot be removed…

        • In our council, we had public meetings for every district, where the three voting delegates and the Scout Exec were present. There were meetings with chartered organization representatives and with the executive council. We knew from the beginning who our three voters were, and how to reach them. We know how they voted, and also what input they got from the executive council and from the public meetings and from the written feedback. All three are volunteers, just like the rest of us, *not* paid staff, and they spent a lot of time listening to other volunteers. I don’t think this is some conspiracy of the out-of-touch. Certainly not from the way our council operated — which they told us was the way they were advised at the regional meeting for Scout Executives.

        • Kathy Perkins you are a breath of fresh air you, Fred Cooper, texasscout and others have been on the front lines. We have taken on the supporters of homosexuals in scouting and it has been at times vicious and demeaning words like homophobe, to old, to religious, out of touch, narrow-minded, our media sources are homosexual bashers, can’t wait till they are in an old folks home or the grave so they will get out of the way of the new BSA and its younger more progressive leaders. Thanks for your clear and right to point response’s. I hope you were one of the ones that filled out the National survey I was and when the results were in with 60% who asked the National Board to not lift he ban on homosexuals. I had complete faith that the delegates would stand with the results of the survey and vote the will of the majority I was stunned and felt betrayed by Wayne Brock and his Executive Board. I have lost all trust in the present leadership of the BSA and I hope their will be a major change in the leadership maybe when the tax exempt status is lost some changes will be made. I look for a complete approval of adult homosexuals right away to please the militant homosexuals all over this nation and those that are currently in the BSA membership hiding in the bubble of dishonesty. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • Every council was represented by volunteer delegates. Those local BSA members were given time to confer with the other members in the council in whatever way that council saw fit. We all had representation in this decision, by volunteers. No one forced their vote.

        • Karen Zeller if you sent out a survey and it was the majority that won based on their opinion and that was the purpose of the survey to get a consensus of the members would you go against the majority. Those on the survey were feet on the ground leaders that are closer to the home base and needs of their councils. I have been a scout recruiter for 12 yrs. and one of the question I get from parents is the issue of safety for their children and how does the program protects their children based on all the controversy and the wavering policies of the BSA. Another problem is the parents will not let their children join a organization that has homosexual leaders. The fear is there and no persuasion from me or any other recruiter will changed that fear. Karen I know you support homosexuals in scouting but this was all about money not scouting. Time will tell if the 854 delegates were wrong or right. I believe they were wrong and all the lawsuits and loss of tax exempt status’s will place the BSA in jeopardy. Sincerely Trenton Spears

        • Trenton, I believe I have been addressing the process by which the decision was made, not my personal feelings about the outcome. It was an open process carried out by volunteer representatives from your council, mine, and every other council. I don’t believe there is anything mysterious about that.

      • Eagle mom….the majority did NOT support this decision. The vote did not represent the members who were opposed.

  18. They are not protected by anything…..

    I will deal with them exactly like I deal with all of my boys….

    • Bob Basement I hope you do better at dealing with boys than you deal with senior citizens. The biggest enemy of truth is hypocrisy Trenton Spears

  19. So CA repealed the BSA tax exempt status…

    In my book there should be NO tax exempt entitiies…..Especially Churches…..

    • Bob Basement you need to work for the IRS this is the mindset of the Obama Administration and his cronies. Please come back to the real world. Trenton Spears

  20. db Stating that the Supreme Court ruling in 2000 was about punishing the youth of scouting is completely irresponsible. If anything it preserved the integrity of the BSA and its future for Americas youth that the BSA and the majority approved of. Just because people do not approve of homosexuals is not hateful rhetoric you cannot cure discrimination by discriminating or stop hate by spilling out hate. db we are a nation of different beliefs and there is no reason for demeaning other people for their beliefs or the direction they choose to go. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

  21. Karen Zeller Why was the survey sent out. You can talk all you want about how your local council voted and the means but it was a local opinion that does not validate ignoring the will of 60% majority of those who sent in the survey. I believe that the survey was the best way to receive a consensus from across this nation and should have not been tossed aside. If you took the money out of the picture there would have never been a vote. Karen there will be homosexual adult leaders in the BSA there is no way to avoid it the lawsuits will force the BSA to admit them. How could any delegate vote to discriminate on May 23, 2013 it was a complete disaster from a PR point of view look at California the legislators are voting to take away the tax exempt status of the BSA in California. Where will it go when are we going to have a stable organization for Americas youth it has become a organization of shifting sand with out an anchor. It is a mystery what the 854 delegates were thinking we need persons of vision and sound principles not gambling and that is what the 854 delegates did. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

  22. LOL I have to laugh. People saying “I truly don’t understand how you can be against this policy change” after all explanation. That just proves that the Liberal Militant Political Machine is doing a good job. People are confused by the very foundational elements of their own country. They want to debate and argue with people about whether you support or disagree with homosexuality as a legit lifestyle instead of debate about what really matters in this country. But so many people in their 30′s-40′s have been lost to the brainwashing of the liberal machine already. That very liberal machine that hates the freedoms that this country represents. That very liberal machine that truly believes that the vast majority of Americans don’t know what the hell they are doing….that only they know what is right and therefore justify their coercion and anti-American tactics with this sincere (albeit wrong) belief that they must make the decisions for the majority of the people since the majority of people are just stupid. Oh, and they define stupid as follows: “Anyone who disagrees with my point of view.” LOL I am going to go to bed in peace tonight, just living in the freedoms of that we have today rather than worry about the brainwashed middle aged Americans who are handing over our freedoms as American citizens to militant extremists who hate our country….they are handing over their own freedoms without even knowing it. You, left wingers are being used as puppets. You feel good and useful now but wait until the extremists are done with your simple minds that are so easily brainwashed. Stop drinking the juice! And instead take back this country! Because one day, very soon I fear, you will be VERY sorry for handing over your freedoms to the minority political machine who is just using you for their own personal gain. Ever hear of Sharia Law??? Go read the Koran and see just how tolerant the Muslim extremists are of homosexuality, female rights and equality, freedom of thought, etc…..You are digging your own grave….Just puppets on a string. God Help us all.

    • Kathy Perkins way to go you have voiced the opinion of thousands of scout leaders across this nation that the 854 delegated ignored on May 23, 2013 I vote you to replace Wayne Brock you have your head on straight. Trenton Spears

  23. How many times have I seen posted “Homosexual activists are not will not get involved! These are just innocent children we’re protecting from bullying and discrimination and potentially suicide.” This encompasses the theme of a large portion of pro-policy posters.

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/01/18662824-boy-scouts-cant-wear-uniforms-at-gay-pride-parade-official-says?

    Quote one from official policy talking head “We as a Scouting movement do not advocate any social or political position (LOL), so I reminded Mr. Brownstein that we do not wear uniforms at an event like this,” Barnes said. “We do not, as Boy Scouts, show support for any social or political position. We’re neutral. If he wants to attend the parade and others do that are Scouts or Scouters, they’re welcome to do so as private citizens wearing whatever they want except their uniform.”

    “That’s our official position. It always has been, there’s nothing new here,” he added. “We just don’t want people to use the Boy Scouts to advocate their positions.” (Let us do that through policy changes)

    Quote 2 from homosexual activist Scout who lied to become one:”If at all possible I want to wear my uniform,” he said, saying that though he could go either way on wearing it, he felt it would be a “welcoming” for “gay kids getting involved in Scouting. Kind of like ‘we want you here’ type of thing. And also as sort of a sense of pride. I’m glad the ban was lifted. I wish it was lifted for leaders but this is a first step in the right direction.” (Probably next year)

    Quote 3 from BSA talking head: When asked about the consequences of wearing the uniform, Barnes, the Scout executive, said: “The first point of the Scout law is a Scout is trustworthy. Once they’ve been told our policy, we expect them to be a good Scout and be trustworthy.” (Scout Oath and Law are suggestions right?)

    Quote 4 from homosexual activist to whom policies are mere suggestions: Mikesell said he will wear his uniform despite what Barnes said. (In other words, rules are for not for me)

    It will be sad watching committed Scouters twisted in knots compromising their principles to support BSA becoming an openly homosexual organization from top to bottom but that was the purpose of all this anyway I believe for some activists. Don’t need a national survey paid for by taxpayer dollars to manipulate that conclusion.

    And yes he is by definition an activist. He does not need to be on the rolls of GLAAD to support their purpose. He is empowered now by the good ole BSA.

    • Quote from the article above copied below. As they say, out of the mouths of babes!

      “It was hard to explain to a 9-year-old the complexities of why I was telling him that we had to quit,” Miller said. “He told me, ‘Daddy, it should be like church. Everybody should be welcome.’”

      • Everybody was welcome under the old policy. The rule was about open homosexuality. Obviously we are learning of many homosexual kids being in the scouts under the old rule. No one asked. Sexuality wasn’t part of scouting until this new decision. And do not forget that the members of an organization get to decide membership policies….and the members decided. It was the rogue 60% of the 1400 that decided against the members.

        • Don’t ask don’t tell was found to not be a very welcoming or wise policy in the past.

        • So then Todd, the removal of Don’t ask, Don’t tell brings sexuality into Scouting? Homosexuality was not in Scouting at all as an accepted behavior before the vote and specifically excluded for youth and adults. It was a intentional exclusion to keep out behavior that was incompatible with Scouting and did not meet the ethical and moral values BSA was trying to instill in young men. The vote did not change that fact, it just changed the people in the organization to accept previously understood unethical and immoral behavior to be ethical and moral for those remaining. For some it is easy since they accepted violating policy before. and will now accept others who are even more willing to violate any new policy they do not like. I’d be prepared with BSA now being associated with more than gay pride parades. LGTB activists have never been shy about co-opting the icons of supporting organizations to raise money and recruit.

        • Todd who are you trying to fool the fact is that you don’t have to discuss sexuality to know that homosexuals were banned from scouting those who broke the no homosexuals in scouting would have to be from Mars to not know this. As a Boy Scout leader you have the responsibility to be aware of restrictions of the BSA the ban was well known and has been for 13 years. If a Scout or Scout leader don’t like the rules then they have no business in a Morally Straight value based organization like the BSA. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • Oh and regarding kids who learned they were gay while in scouts. Very painful indeed. They find themselves in conflict with the oath they took, the law they promised to keep, and now learn they cannot keep that oath and law due to their newly discovered sexual orientation. In thinking about this difficult situation, I think about my son and his situation. My husband and his. As Scouts they took the Oath and promised to obey the the Scout Law and they did so with passion. Now the decision was made to create a policy that conflicts with the Oath and Scout Law they were so passionate about. Guess what…they decided to leave and form a new organization they can be committed to with integrity. They feel robbed of Scouting and the benefit the Old BSA offered but they do not feel entitled to those benefits that to get require they go against the very people they are. My husband and son are in the same position homosexual scouts and leaders that want to be open about their orientation were/are in. It’s not fair that a 103 year old policy was changed to please the few while it creates the same dilemma for the majority.

          People, especially this militant homosexual group, felt entitled to scouting. They joined then broke their oath and the scout law and are rewarded and hailed as heroes for doing so. Well, no one is entitled to anything. An oath is not something you break. We can no longer support the BSA who says they teach integrity yet make heroes out of those who have none.

        • BSA first brought sexuality into Scouting when they enacted the ban in the early 1990s which never should have happened. We lost a lot of credibility then as we did trying to keep troops segregated long ago. That was wrong then and discriminating against gay scouts and leaders is equally wrong now. It’s that simple to me.

        • And so you know better and have more weight in a decision than the majority who disagree with you? His is that?

        • Kathy, keeping troops segregated was once also the stance of the majority.

        • Todd, comparing sexual behavior to race is ridiculous on its face and you know it. Please don’t justify your position by making that claim.

        • Fred said: “comparing sexual behavior to race is ridiculous on its face and you know it. Please don’t justify your position by making that claim.”

          Discrimination is discrimination, regardless of the characteristic you use. It strikes me that calling the position ridiculous is a futile attempt to cover up for the fact that there is no principled, moral response to justify your position.

        • Its not discrimination in my opinion and millions of others. Just because you say it is doesn’t make it so and vice verse. Its my opinion and I will stick with it.

        • “Todd, comparing sexual behavior to race is ridiculous on its face and you know it. Please don’t justify your position by making that claim.”

          In accordance with my faith, discrimination based on sexual preference is just as wrong as doing it with regard to race.

        • In my faith loving one another and discerning immoral behavior is not discrimination and it is easy for me to tell the difference.

          In my faith, discrimination is not allowed. Discernment is encouraged to bring fallen sinners to repentance.

        • Todd, then how did you belong to the BSA before this decision and how do you remain involved with the BSA still when they are still discriminating against adult homosexuals as leaders???

          At what point did you take a stand while you and your son(s) were in the BSA before this decision to stand on your faith that requires you to NOT be a part of an organization that discriminates based on sexual orientation? Because clearly, the BSA had a policy that did in fact discriminate against open and avowed homosexuality and still doesn’t allow homosexual adults to be leaders?

          Where is your integrity here? Why did you join the BSA in the first place knowing these rules existed and they were against your faith?

        • Why tell, it has nothing to do with scouting? I have to shake my head at this. No, it has nothing to do with scouting. On this, I agree. It does have something to do with life, though. In order to not be kicked out of scouts, a kid would have to stay in the closet everywhere. Not just in scouts. If someone knew some other way that a kid was gay, he could be removed from the BSA, even if he wasn’t coming to meetings and wearing a rainbow and talking about his boyfriend.

        • Refer to my last post. Homosexuals Scouts are already disclosing their homosexuality everywhere including the national news. Why would they not disclose it. The practical application of the new policy will be that straight Scouts and leaders will have to be very careful limiting homosexual speech.

          I do not know how BSA will clearly define what “based on sexual orientation alone” to mean but the official statement below clearly states that open speech about orientation is protected speech in scouting and long as that speech is not acting upon that orientation through sexually suggestive language I guess. Unclear to me what the statement and new policy means ad how to apply it and keep sexuality out of Scouting..

          “While, if this resolution is passed, no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of stating their sexual orientation alone, Scouting expects appropriate behavior from all members, which includes sexual conduct, regardless of sexual orientation.”

        • Yes… there is a lot of controversy surrounding this issue. I didn’t say there wasn’t. I know that kids are coming out in the wake of the newly adopted policy. I’m personally happy that they feel comfortable to be who they are. All I said is that there wouldn’t be a need to discuss it if there were no ban… That is, if there never had been. The BSA made sexuality an issue when they enacted it in the first place.

        • Fred, I think the BSA will look the other way, because the current leaders support the change, when the uniform is wore in Gay Parades and such which is specifically against the BSA policy. The BSA leaders who made this decision are morally compromised and have proven they will NOT uphold any policy that goes against the homosexual community, whether it be against using the BSA for political messages, or being verbally inappropriate about sexuality in general. The Militant Machine won’t allow them to take a stand on any existing rules that would silence the flamboyant pride some homosexuals love to engage in. It’s a lost cause to try to stop it. Law suits will be filed to change it all. If the boy scouts who are marching in gay pride parades are not kicked out for breaking the BSA rules, you will see that what I’m saying here is right.

        • Kathy Perkins The Gay Pride parade in Salt Lake City yesterday is proof of what is in store for the homosexuals plans for the BSA. A hypocritical scoutmaster in a T-shirt not his uniform gave a few Scouts permission to wear their uniforms in the front of the parade. They were told by local Scout leaders not to do this but they did it anyway. This is proof that homosexuals will bring in values that will not be compatible with the BSA. All this is a huge problem for the majority of scouts and scouters who stay in the BSA this is a small example of the homosexual agenda that will continue and form the future of the BSA. A new title for the BSA welcome to the break any rules you want policies and directives of the BSA, by the way throw out all the books and materials of the past it will offended the incoming homosexuals as they change the face of the BSA. Sincerely Trenton Spears.

        • The Scouts that had planned to participate in the color guard of the pride parade in Sale Lake City were advised that they would not be permitted to wear their Class A uniforms. They complied with this, and wore Class B uniforms instead.

        • Are you saying no Scouts marched in Class A uniforms? I saw the pictures. Anything with BSA on it is wrong and a clear violation of Scout policy.

          Are you saying this policy is also okay to violate based on personal preference?

        • Yes, I saw the photos as well. I should clarify… The Boy Scouts who were advised to not wear their Class A wore Class Bs instead. They complied with the request that they not wear their Class A. What I understood is that those that wore the Class A in the parade were not active Scouts.

        • what a strange and tortured logic you use. They say don’t wear Class A so Class B would be okay? Really? The whole participation was a violation.

          “It just feels like the right thing to do,” Kenji Mikesell, an 18-year-old Eagle Scout and high school senior still active with his troop, said before leaving for the parade in Salt Lake City in his uniform.”

          Beth, you have a chance to clarify your comments.

        • I was not aware of the 18 year old Eagle Scout’s comments. I’m sure I haven’t read every account that’s been written regarding this event. I was mistaken.

          As for the Class A vs. Class B… if the Class B wasn’t forbidden, those that participated in their Class B were not in violation of the ruling from the Council.

        • BSA talking head said: “We as a Scouting movement do not advocate any social or political position, so I reminded Mr. Brownstein that we do not wear uniforms at an event like this,” said Rick Barnes, chief scout executive of the Great Salt Lake Council, which consists of more than 75,000 youth. “We do not, as Boy Scouts, show support for any social or political position. We’re neutral. If he wants to attend the parade and others do that are Scouts or Scouters, they’re welcome to do so as private citizens wearing whatever they want except their uniform.

          He said: Uniform. He did not distinguish between Class A and Class B

          Mikesell said he wasn’t worried about any consequences. But Brownstein did not wear his uniform and instead opted for a T-shirt that carried the message of inclusive Scouting, with a rainbow square knot on it. His son, an Eagle Scout, and another Scout wore shirts promoting allowing gays in Scouting (LGBT adults are not allowed to join the program).

          They wore rainbow underwear not BSA apparel with BSA on it.

          Class B would be a violation.

        • Beth the class A is for special activities like Flag ceremonies, group assemblies, Courts of Honor going to or coming home from camps and any other requested activities by the Scoutmaster. The class B is an official part of a uniform worn at camps activities that would need protection from scout activities that would harm the or soil Class A’s. Class A.s and class B’s cannot be worn in anything politically independent of scouting. The Scouts were in violation of BSA policies but what else is new for the new BSA There are many Gay Pride Parades and you can bet the house that they will be wearing their scout uniforms at those events in violation of the rules it has been going on for years in scouting and only proves that homosexuality is not compatible with the BSA. Sincerely Trenton Spears

        • Beth there you go again twisting an turning the truth. I saw the article on the website and it clearly showed an Eagle Scout and two other younger one a cub scouts wearing their uniforms. Look it up yourself I know how to access it I believe you are capable of finding it yourself. Keep up the good work of twisting the truth. Sincerely Trenton Spears

        • Beth since when does truth turn to accusations just stating the facts ma’am as Jack Webb use to say on TV. Sorry Beth you were caught up in a mistruth. I am sure it was because of your lack of protocol of how scouts in uniform represent the BSA in a political event it is against the rules to participate in any political event period. Was it your overreach in promoting the homosexual agenda speculation but worthy of thought. Sincerely Trenton Spears

        • Beth, why do you think Gay people are Entitled to joining the BSA? Does the BSA membership not have a right to make it’s own membership policies??? It’s a private organization! This issue here that you claim is “unfair to gays” is really about a sense of “entitlement” and that is an unhealthy view point.

          NO ONE is Entitled to anything in life. Show me in the BSA program where it teaches the boys to disobey existing rules!!!!! Please show me!

          You people cannot see the forest through the trees!!!!!

          Life presents people with choices. There are TONS of private organizations, fraternities, sororities, country clubs, etc. (hell even some restaurants require a man to wear a TIE!) that have membership rules and guidelines that EXCLUDE certain people!!! It is the right of a private organization to do so! If you didn’t like the rules, DON’T FRIGGIN JOIN THE GROUP! MAKE YOUR OWN!!!! Where did logic get lost in the minds of today’s middle aged???? Ugh!

        • Kathy said: “Where did logic get lost in the minds of today’s middle aged????” I don’t know where you lost it. Would you like us to help you find it again?

        • I simply thing the BSA is a valuable organization with quite a lot to offer. I do think that everyone should be able to be a part of it, yes. Sure, it has been upheld by SCOTUS that the BSA, and other groups, have the right to set their membership policies. Which they just did, when they voted to allow gay youth into the program.

        • Which they did against the majority membership don’t forget. And yet they are still discriminating and against your values!!!!!

          And for the person who said that the BSA National and I individual packs have different values might be true. But will you be okay when individual packs still ban homosexual kids against the National policy? I think not. The homosexual militant machine has already promised to be a self appointed watch dog to make sure that doesn’t happen. So your value of pack charter decision against national only works for you when it’s going to go your way. Not to mention to go against National reflects a dishonorable character in and of itself.

        • @ Kathy Perkins

          You wrote >>>> “why do you think Gay people are Entitled to joining the BSA? Does the BSA membership not have a right to make it’s own membership policies??? It’s a private organization! … There are TONS of private organizations, fraternities, sororities, country clubs, etc. … that have membership rules and guidelines that EXCLUDE certain people!!! It is the right of a private organization to do so! If you didn’t like the rules, DON’T FRIGGIN JOIN THE GROUP! MAKE YOUR OWN!!!! …”

          I firmly believe the BSA, like other private organizations in America, has the right to exclude anyone they want. However, I also believe that excluding gay kids from the primary American Scouting organization for boys is the morally wrong decision.

          Please remember that many gay Scouts joined the BSA when they were young kids, and unaware of their sexual orientation. If you don’t want gay kids to be Scouts, you can’t just ask gay teens who are not currently Scouts to not join, you also have to deal with the issue of long-time Scouts who, as they go through puberty, begin to realize they are gay. This is something the BSA has not provided any thoughtful guidance about, nor, from what I’ve seen, have any of the new “alternate” scouting organizations that are forming.

        • @Kathy
          >>>>And for the person who said that the BSA National and I individual packs have different values might be true. But will you be okay when individual packs still ban homosexual kids against the National policy? I think not. The homosexual militant machine has already promised to be a self appointed watch dog to make sure that doesn’t happen. So your value of pack charter decision against national only works for you when it’s going to go your way. Not to mention to go against National reflects a dishonorable character in and of itself.

          Kathy, I think I’m the person you’re referring to here. A few months back the BSA proposed a “local CO” approach to the gay issue, much like you’re describing, where individual CO’s could decide whether or not to allow gay Scouts in their troop, based on the values of the CO.

          We discussed the proposal here. I was all for it, because no CO would have to have troop rules against their values, and similarly Scouts could choose a troop that was consistent with their beliefs. In addition, it allowed a natural way for the balance between the two styles of troops to change over time, one way or the other, as individual families “voted with their feet” and chose the troop that best reflected what they wanted from the BSA on the issue.

          Unfortunately, many here were against the proposal, mostly based on concerns about what would happen at summer camp and other scenarios where the two kinds of troops would meet. The BSA dropped the idea and went with the new policy instead.

          I don’t believe that everyone in an organization needs to think the same way, and I don’t think it is dishonorable to work for change within an organization where you agree with the vast majority of the work it does, but think that a handful of things could be done better. Indeed, it is that kind of (polite, thoughtful) input, from the diverse perspectives of stakeholders, that strengthens any organization in the long run.

        • That was wrong too DLDW. Di you think we would say anything different? Two wrongs don’t make a right. Learned that by first grade.

      • Todd, cherry-picking quotes has always been popular fare among the left to avoid the central premise of the story. I rather see the quote as a father respecting his son’s opinion understanding that it is the simplistic understanding of a child. As the child matures, he will be taught how to recognize moral and immoral behavior and how to avoid unprincipled and immoral people. I’d like to ask him the same question given the benefit of a little maturity.

  24. As a long time scouter 28 yrs. I have reservations on the ability of the National BSA Board to manage the BSA program. My first thought is why adult homosexuals were excluded from lifting the ban that in itself is discrimination. To say that lifting the ban was the right decision is irresponsible and there will be many law suits over this decision. In California the Senate has passed a bill removing the tax exempt status of the California Boy Scouts I believe Gov. Brown will sign it. This is the peril the BSA will face. I have one question what will the LDS Church do if adult homosexual’s leaders are legally admitted into the Scouting. My hopes are that the LDS Church will form its own scout program free of all the political nonsense of the non- political BSA. The hand writing is on the wall and the LGBT will take over the BSA why because they will control the funding as they have ask large corporations to hold up the funds and force the BSA to the will of their agenda by lifting the ban. Better to make the break now. Always Chose the Right. Trenton Spears

  25. Mike I can cite one disqualification on a adult homosexual leader it is they are not suppose to be in Scouting therefore should not be qualified for Youth Protection clearance. Please stop the cover-up nonsense. Trenton Spears

    • You are correct, Trenton and Fred, that homosexual adults are not permitted under the new policy. Please note the form of the argument you have advanced, however:
      1. Homosexual adults should not be leaders because they cannot pass YP (Tr
      enton’s statement).
      2. They cannot pass YP because homosexual adults are not allowed to be leaders. (The further explanation from both Trenton and Fred).
      Circular argument.

      • Karen. I never formed an argument. There is no argument. I take YPT annually and adhere to its guidelines. Homosexual men should not take it period. Where is the argument?

        • I think I must live on a different planet from Fred. Fred writes ” There is no argument. I take YPT annually and adhere to its guidelines. Homosexual men should not take it period. Where is the argument?”

          Where we live, we take YPT seriously. We request that all parents and guardians of the members of our troop take YPT training, even if the adult is not registered. There is no rule that the son of a “insert_any_adjective here” adult can not be in scouts. So why should homosexual men not take the online YPT course?

        • Is something wrong with you?! I never mentioned or said anything you refer to at all. We were talking about leaders.

          Since BSA did not allow homosexuality, why would a homosexual guardian have their child join to teach against their lifestyle and take YPT training? Do you really have that situation or are we talking hypothetically here or was that guardian delusional before the vote and thought BSA did accept homosexuals even though policy was very clear they did not and have not for 20 years.

          Or was it to get instilled in their youth the ethical and moral values taught by the character education program of Scouting and have their child question their immoral behavior? Really?

          I don’t join organizations I don’t agree with nor do my children. You’re saying they subjected their kids on purpose?

        • I believe she is saying that Fred. They joined to be activists and lied under oath, which is a criminal offense in a court of law, to use the BSA to further a militant political agenda. That’s exactly what happened in many cases. In others kids or parents just lied and continued to take an oath they weren’t sincere about. Very dishonorable.

        • Fred- I simply quoted you. Those are the words you wrote. And no, it is not a hypothetical. There exist in the real world people who are gay. And some of them have children. And some of those have children in scouting. Take for example, Jennifer Tyrrell. A mom. A den leader. Who successfully completed YPT training. Until it was discovered she was a lesbian. She was not someone who went around touting her sexuality. Or promoting a lifestyle. Or recruiting or luring young men into gay culture. Someone discovered she was gay and reported her to her council’s executives. After being given the boot she was vocal about her opposition to BSA’s policies. But not until then.

        • I guess you’re right about that one thing. She did subject her kid to an organization that published that homosexuality was incompatible with Scouting on purpose. She was treated correctly and is still specifically excluded from Scouting by a Policy that is crystal clear and nationally published and supported by paid surveys. She did it to herself out of ignorance. ignorance of the rules has never been an acceptable excuse for violating policy.

        • Db and Fred,
          I am wondering what version of the YPT, you guys did. The version I did for training there wasn’t anything about homosexuality

        • I just explained it to Mike again in my last comment. I also do not understand why we keep beating this to death. The point is that the adult homosexual in excluded from Scouting so how could he pass a test he could not take.

        • Fred, as we have previously shown, you are dead wrong about the BSA meaning of “morally straight”. Why are you flogging that dead horse again. And are you now suggesting that homosexuals are “unclean” under any standard more broadly accepted than your religion? My religion would not support that conclusion.

        • Mike, the burden of proof is on you my dear. How did the BSA win their supreme court case then and why did they spend millions to fight that court battle???? Hum???? LOL

        • Mike you need to read this from the 2000 Supreme court ruling
          Regarding whether the Boy Scouts as a whole had an expressive policy against homosexuality, the Court gave deference to the organization’s own assertions of the nature of its expressions, as well as what would impair them. The Boy Scouts asserts that it “teach[es] that homosexual conduct is not morally straight,” and that it does “not want to promote homosexual conduct as a legitimate form of behavior,”[10] While the policy may not represent the views of all Boy Scouts, the First Amendment “does not require that every member of a group agree on every issue in order for the group’s policy to be expressive association.”[11] The Court deemed it sufficient that the Boy Scouts had taken an official position with respect to same-sex relationships. The presence of an openly gay activist in an assistant Scoutmaster’s uniform sends a distinctly different message from the presence of a heterosexual assistant Scoutmaster who is on record as disagreeing with Boy Scouts policy. The Boy Scouts has a First Amendment right to choose to send one message but not the other. The fact that the organization does not trumpet its views from the housetops, or that it tolerates dissent within its ranks, does not mean that its views receive no First Amendment protection.[12]
          This is the Morally Straight stand in the BSA and their right to use it in it in any Court case. Sincerely Trenton Spears

        • When do gay parents (not leaders) of straight Scouts take an oath???

          I’m sorry but there are gay parents that take and do pass YPT.

        • Todd, you and db must be Cub Scouters. In the Troop, we do not require any adult who is not a registered leader or accompanies us on trips to take YPT. Some parents go on all Cub Scout Camps but not on Boy Scout trips in our Troop.

          The Scout and registered adult taking YPT is what matters. I don’t see why your point of random people who could not qualify as leaders and Scouts makes any difference at all. Please help me.

        • Morally straight. Those are the words. The supreme court justices supported the idea that a group could determine what their own words meant and the BSA said in this court case those words meant to be straight sexually.

        • Thank you. This has been posted numerous times but the history revisionist among us are trying to connect this latest vote to a belief that “its been that way all along” with “Don’t ask, don’t tell” and now homosexuals can be out and open and ethically and morally straight but this will only be the case on January 1, 2014. I think they will be surprised to discover how “open and avowed” will be interpreted by young people who think they are homosexual. My daughter just graduated and her stories of young people acting out in high school were pretty colorful.

        • Kathy said: “Morally straight. Those are the words. The supreme court justices supported the idea that a group could determine what their own words meant and the BSA said in this court case those words meant to be straight sexually.”

          Really? I would like to read that portion of the BSA’s presentation. Where did you find it?

        • Fred, I see what the Wikipedia entry says. Thank you. I assume the actual opinion of the court bears it out. Another 60-40 split in favor of doing what the homophobes wanted, instead of what the BSA public documents said. (See Justice Breyer’s dissent.) Not completely surprising given the composition of the Court at that time.

        • From BSA:

          . . . and morally straight.

          To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.

          No mention there of sexual preference.

        • Let’s walk it through.

          Homosexuality is incompatible with Scouting until January 1, 2014 for those who choose to remain accept BSA’s new definition of ethical and moral values.

          Morality of character and cleanliness of thought and body are the only places I see where being incompatible with Scouting could possibly fit in BSA’s Oath and Law. This blog has caused me to add Trustworthy and Obedient (to stated and published policy) since they lied to get into Scouting and stay there.

          Where does “homosexuality is incompatible with Scouting” fir into the Oath and Law for you or did you just say that you don’t accept BSA’s rules but will stay in anyway. How is that being honest with yourself about the organization.

        • Todd, go read the entire Supreme Court Case and exactly what the BSA said about these words Morally Straight. I remind you, they won this case and the right to determine what their own words meant.

        • “Todd, you and db must be Cub Scouters. In the Troop, we do not require any adult who is not a registered leader or accompanies us on trips…”

          I was a DL, ACM, and now an ASM. I was in scouting as a boy and now almost 8 years as a leader.

        • Side comment here — a troop near us requires all parents who might ever want to go along on an overnight trip to take Scoutmaster Specific and Intro to Outdoor Leader Skils (i.e., Scoutmaster basic training) along with YP, so most do so within the first year after coming into the troop. It looks like I am going to move from ASM to SM in our troop in a few months, and I intend to promote the same policy there.

        • I appreciate your service. It means a lot to Scouting.

          And you require all adult parents, volunteers and registered members to take YPT? All people who may volunteer for a day or assist with events? Everyone?

        • In July, I will be spending a day at Cub Day Camp as I do every year, doing YP training for every adult there. We build it into the rotation, so that there is one station where there is more staffing with kids while the adults do YP. YP at all levels works best if every parent understands it. If parents don’t understand it, they may not spot someone who is crossing the boundaries.

        • Hi Fred, Like Todd, I’m a scoutmaster, We have a large troop with a 100 kids. The reason we request all adults to take YPT regardless of whether they are a registered leader is for the safety and protection of all the kids. We wouldn’t let an parent in our troop violate YPT policies on a trip or at a meeting. It is interesting you mention cub scouting – because I was involved with three different packs and none of them required parents to take YPT training.

        • db ypt is required for most activity involving boys in Scouting When I organize a Camporal, Camporee or any overnighter even the non- scout fathers have to be ypt certified. It is good policy and it will help in any lawsuits. Sincerely Trenton Spears

        • “Todd, go read the entire Supreme Court Case and exactly what the BSA said about these words Morally Straight. I remind you, they won this case and the right to determine what their own words meant.”

          And there was no ban until early the 1990s. Things change, just like they did on May 23.

        • Todd, are you saying the BSA didn’t know what their own wording was for their own oath? That the BSA Oath can change at will depending on the wind of the social climate? That is actually what you are saying here….I need no answer from you. That is the sad state of America today. A man/woman’s word and oath mean nothing. So So So very sad.

        • As a parent of a scout, in order to attend the camporee this past year, I was required to take the YPT course. My husband was a Den leader not me. I’m not sure why we are debating who is and is not supposed to take the YPT course. I’m confused.

          I will say however, that the YPT course is not sufficient to deal with boys influencing boys and/or behaving sexually while in their private tents that the YPT keeps adult leaders out of while on camping trips. It’s a mute point really.

      • Karen there you go again twisting Fred’s and my words they can’t be ypt certified because there not supposed to be in Scouting or activity period. The ban excludes all homosexuals registered or not. Please read the Supreme Courts ruling in 2000. The BSA was granted the right to exclude Homosexuals and they were in fact banned from registering in Scouting. This is not circular it stops with the truth. I am going to add something else any scout troop, pack, charter or Council that covered up for any homosexual was in fact in violation of Scout policy and that is the truth. Every time a homosexual was registered, promoted or advanced in rank they were in violation of the policy and those who advanced them were also in violation of the policy. Every time a Advancement person in the Scout Committee signed a homosexual requesting after the approval of the Scoutmaster also in violation so he could advance was in violation of the ban. You see this is not a matter of allowing it is matter of breaking the ban on homosexuals that you and some others on this website seem to forget a ban is a ban with no allowance’s . If you don’t like the policies change them before you break them. Please stop covering up for homosexuals that hid in the bubble of dishonesty for the last 13 and previous years. There is no Honor in covering up for disqualified scouts or scouters. Sincerely Trenton Spears

        • Trenton, look again. I did not disagree with you about whether homosexual adults are banned from BSA. They are. I pointed out the form of your argument. You said that homosexuals could not be leaders (among other reasons) because they could not pass YP. They could not pass YP because they could not take YP. They could not take YP because they are homosexual. Follow the *form* of the argument. You used the converse of the claim to defend the claim, and it is not logically permissible to do that, as the truth value of an assertion and its converse are not always the same. An assertion and its converse do not imply the truth value of one another. My comment to you was a straightforward analysis of the argument you offered, not a contention that you had said anything false. I did not say that what you said was false in any way, only that the argument was malformed.

        • Karen I did not say that any homosexual scout does not belong in scouting because they could not pass a YPT Certification I said that they were not supposed to be in scouting period and why would they be allowed to take a YPT Certification anyway.
          Homosexuality is not compatible with the BSA their word’s not mine I agree with this the statement Karen do you. The homosexual scout leader would not be eligible in any BSA function period much less YPT. Karen I know that you have formed your own opinion and from your statements seem to support the BSA’S new position even though the survey did not want the ban lifted and neither did I. Another thing the blogging on Bryans website previous to the vote there was a clear and deciding consensus to not lift the ban I know that many Scouters read these comments and I believe that some of the delegates that voted saw the consensus of do not lift the ban so the whole process will have a mysterious cloud about it for years to come . Karen you have to admit that many obstacles have surfaced since the vote like trying to take away the BSA’S tax exemption in California from politicians, the outcry from the GLAAD and GLBT threatening to cut funding from large corporations till adult homosexuals become Scout leaders the many scout Charter leaving the BSA, loss to the FOS funding. Karen these are devastating problems for the BSA I think it is a waste of time defending the vote and how it was done it is a issue to no where the deed is done now is the time to find a way to deal with it. The 854 delegates vote might have been above board but nevertheless it was a vote of poor judgment and short sidedness causing more problems than helping the youth of the BSA. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • Karen, I think we have to give up on advancing logical arguments in this forum. Any argument which doesn’t appeal to those opposed to the recent change is immediately labeled at dishonest or twisting their words, whether or not it is truthful or logical.

        • You know Mike, you and I could have said the same thing about the arguments of the other and it be factual. Perception is a powerful thing. True, we are engaging in circular arguments and parsing words and introducing new scenarios, seeking new explanations for the same position. I laid mine out a few days ago. Its the same I have held since I have been in Scouting and you can find it on this thread if you have any interest.

          Its worth the debate. Your absolutes and principles are not mine and what is beyond question for me is in your realm of possibilities. It’s hard to find black and white in a gray world. A Christian fights that battle every day if he stands by his faith.

          BSA sets the rules. We’ll soon see who follows the new ones or ignores them because they not suit their temperment and lifestyle choices.

        • Furthermore, Trenton, you just made unsubstantiated personal accusations of me. You made these accusations:
          1. “you and some others on this website seem to forget a ban is a ban.”
          2. “stop covering up for homosexuals.”
          No place in what I have written here will you see anything to justify your accusation that I “forget a ban is a ban” or that I have been “covering up for homosexuals.” I would suggest you retract those accusations, because false accusation is also a violation of honor.

        • Karen I will not retract anything that I stated . Question, do you agree that homosexual activity was covered up. Do you believe that a homosexual belongs in the BSA prior to January 1st 2014. Do you agree that homosexuals scouts were given advancements that they were not eligible for because of the ban. Do you agree that some Scout leaders were telling their scouts to remain silent about their homosexuality till they are out of Scouting to protect their advancements such as Eagle Scouts because of the ban. Karen you see all homosexual issues is based on the Supreme Court decision to give the BSA the right to ban homosexuals from Scouting. You seem to ignore this truth and I have never seen a comment from you saying the homosexuals were wrong and should not have been in scouting in the first place. Like I say no homosexual should be taking the YPT because they are not eligible to do so. Karen if you think that I will retract from the truth forget about it. There is always honor in truth. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • You charged me with personally covering something up. That is NOT the truth, and if you will not retract that defamatory claim, then you are NOT a man of honor.

        • Karen, Trent is more a man of honor than you will ever be a woman of honor. You call what is honorable dishonorable and what is dishonorable honorable. That is the fact. Oh, and I won’t retract my comments either.

        • Kathy, I have just reviewed every comment I have made in response to this blog post. What have you seen me do that you can label dishonorable?
          1. I have thanked Bryan for posting the information. Is gratitude dishonorable?
          2. I have objected to girls being stereotyped as only wanting to have lunch and shop. Is objecting to stereotyping girls dishonorable?
          3. I have worked to clarify definitions of several terms. Is clarity of diction dishonorable?
          4. I have stated a current practice in Venturing. Is knowing or explaining Venturing dishonorable?
          5. I have identified a feature in Royal Rangers’ advancement program that might be a problem for non-pentecostals. Is it dishonorable to read the advancement program, or to relay it?
          6. I have outlined several parts of BSA’s process in reaching this decision. Is it dishonorable to know or to explain the process by which the decision was made?
          7. I gave factual information about the relationship between BSA and AHG. Is it dishonorable to know what that relationship was, or tell others?
          8. I talked about my troops’ plans for camp this summer. Is it dishonorable to look forward to serving boys at Boy Scout camp?
          9. I have said that my troop is from a low income area. Is that dishonorable?
          10. I have outlined the uniform requirements my daughter and my son each meet for National Jamboree for this summer, and objected to someone’s negative characterization of the young women expected to be at the Jamboree. Is this dishonorable?
          11. I made some suggestions for ways to help a low-income troop be able to go camping more than once a year. Is it dishonorable to help poor boys go camping?
          12. I pointed out that the WOSM only affiliates with one scouting organization in each country. Is knowing and speaking this fact dishonorable?
          13. I described the training requirements for a nearby troop, and work I do teaching YP at day camp every summer. Is that dishonorable?
          14. I discussed the form of an argument. Is it dishonorable to critique the form of an argument? We do it in English classes every day.
          15. Finally, when Trenton specifically charged me with covering something up, i.e. lying about someone in Scouting or about Scout practices, I objected to that false and defamatory accusation. Is it dishonorable to call someone out for slander?

          Kathy, you will not find anything in what I have said here that demonstrates dishonorable action or that justifies Trenton’s slanderous characterization of me. I wonder if your definition of honor and dishonor rests on someone’s agreement or disagreement with you? In an organization where we all take oaths on our honor, those are dangerous words to throw around lightly. I did not use it lightly; you will not see me talking about dishonor lightly. But when someone makes a false accusation, knowing that there is no concrete basis for it, and refuses to retract it — yes, that is dishonorable.

        • Hi Trenton. Wow. That’s the first I’ve heard of the BSA banning parents who were homosexuals. If you could point me to the BSA policy or rule that says that, I’ll happily comply. But since there is no such rule, I’m not holding my breath.

          You have assumed that a homosexual would not let their kid into scouts because why would they want their kid in scouts when there are those in the organization who call them “unclean” and immoral, to name the official insults. Maybe because they don’t stereotype the adult leaders in scouting and are willing to check out the local troop or pack and they find that we’re friendly people trying to deliver a quality program to kids. Maybe they want to instill in their kids the same values we do of good citizenship, leadership and self-sufficiency. Just maybe its possible they are good parents who care for kids.

        • But db, you miss the point! To enroll your kids into an organization that openly states your way of life is immoral and unacceptable makes no sense. So what you are saying db is that you support and supported people to join the BSA, take the BSA oath, promise to keep the BSA law, while knowing they disagree with it.

          THAT my dear is DISHONORABLE and against the very values you are saying they wanted their son to learn. But you will never see that because you want to push your values don’t allow you to understand that. Because your values here are that it’s okay to lie, break and oath, and get away with breaking rules as long as it’s doing it according to what you think is right. Never mind the rules. They don’t matter! Never mind the Oath to be morally straight and clean that was defined by the BSA very clearly in their Win at the Supreme Court level. Your values are that you can interpret things as you see fit whether it’s in writing that your interpretation goes against the organization. Your values are STILL not upheld in the BSA btw. The BSA still has discrimination values against homosexual parents being leaders. I bet you support homosexual parents becoming members and ignoring that rule too. God help us. We as a Nation have lost our moral compass and our values go with the wind. Very dishonorable.

        • Hi Kathy P. You’re ranting. Parents don’t take an oath, nor are they required to follow the scout law. So you’re jabbering on about things that have never happened.

        • Only jabbering to people who fail to understand reason. So you are saying the parents want their kids to take an oath and swear to promise to keep a law that violates the parents own values??? Now look who’s jabbering. LOL

        • @Kathy Perkins
          >>>> To enroll your kids into an organization that openly states your way of life is immoral and unacceptable makes no sense.

          The national organization holds these views, but they are not always shared by the local organization or indeed by the chartering organization. If your family goes to a church which sponsors a Scout troop, and your son’s friends and family members belong to the troop, and the troop leaders do not agree with the national policy, you might decide that the pros of your son’s participation outweigh the cons. The BSA membership does not all agree on the right path on this issue; if they did, it wouldn’t be an issue.

    • Sexuality is a distraction now because a class of individuals are banned. If there was no ban, there would be no need to speak of it.

      • How can you seriously believe that with no constraints and tacit approval of their sexual orientation from BSA leadership that homosexual youth and heterosexual advocates for homosexual youth will do anything but make the sexuality of a homosexual boy public? As we have already seen in the national news with the lifting of the ban not even effective that homosexual Scouts are defying Boy Scout policy to parade the uniform in a “gay pride” parade. Once the GLAAD plants begin joining, they are used to expressive display of sexual orientation. Who’s going to stop them? You? I think not. GLAAD stated officially that they were encouraginig homosexual boys to join specifically for activism. But, it may all be okay with you anyway.

        I speculate that new training materials will be tolerant and understanding of the homosexual lifestyle and teach heterosexual Scouts how to limit their speech and actions to avoid “offending” and “bullying” them. What makes you think it will be any other way?

        • Mistakenly hit ‘reply’ to the wrong post. This comment belongs here…

          Yes… there is a lot of controversy surrounding this issue. I didn’t say there wasn’t. I know that kids are coming out in the wake of the newly adopted policy. I’m personally happy that they feel comfortable to be who they are. All I said is that there wouldn’t be a need to discuss it if there were no ban… That is, if there never had been. The BSA made sexuality an issue when they enacted it in the first place.

        • Fred, we live in communities where an individual’s sexuality is not a matter of community interest. We don’t stop at “don’t ask, don’t tell”. We go on to “don’t ask, don’t care”. You must come from a very interesting community if “outing” people (whether gay boys, adulterers or otherwise) is a routine activity.

        • Not following this rabbit trail. Everything I said dealt with the potential actions of homosexual boys under the new policy now in Scouting and soon to be in Scouting. Stay focused. Never even spoke about “outing” anybody, just surmised they will be rushing to “out” themselves whether anyone wants to hear it or not.

        • Hi Fred- I believe some will out themselves. But I believe most will remain in the closet. The BSA isn’t the only reason folks do not reveal their sexuality. I suspect most youth will be fearful of what others think: in their high school, from their parents, maybe their church. Obviously, in some communities being gay would be like having leprosy.

          And yes, the BSA and gay scouts will continue to make news. We’ll have headlines about “first openly gay scout receives his Eagle award” and such things. But that’s only because we’ve made it an issue. We don’t see any such headlines with Girl Scouts and the Gold Award, do we?

        • db, are you aware of how few girls ever get the Gold Award? We have in some cases more than five times the number Eagle Scouts in out small districts per year than our entire states Girl Scouting.
          Girl Scouting has so few girls beyond the Brownie age that there’s no way to make a legitimate comparison. When my daughter earned her Gold Award, she was invited to a statewide dinner for all 22 Gold Award winners that year.

        • db If there is any homosexuals as of this year and since the ban in scouting they are in violation of the exclusion clause. Hiding in the closet is not acceptable to the values of honesty and morally straight in scouting period.

        • Who cares what others think about you? Exactly! Your statement proves that thus issue us about legislating thought. Intolerance for people who believe the bible says its a sin to be homosexual. Ever consider the person who has same sex attraction and doesn’t want to act in it? Would you have just as much compassion for his desires or would you suggest he is shaming himself and should repress himself???? You all are so caught up in codependency you fail to see the error if your own arguments and how they disrespect the right of people to think, act, and join groups of people who hold their same values. You all joined BSA us dishonor and remain in BSA in dishonor because BSA policy is against your own values still today. Have some self respect and work to change the policy that you disagree with before you join. I have zero respect for anyone who joins or has their kid join an organization whose policies conflict with their values. I don’t question your right to your values. I question you honor and integrity and sense of entitlement to a group you don’t agree with still today. Get out until it is a group that aligns with your values and then You’ll have earned some respect. Until you decide to act on your values….what you say has no respect.

        • @Fred Cooper

          >>>>… just surmised they will be rushing to “out” themselves whether anyone wants to hear it or not.

          There is no incentive for gay Scouts to be “out” under the new policy. If they are “out”, they lose the opportunity to work as camp staff once they turn 18, and the opportunity to fully participate in the Scouting Movement, and all it has to offer, as adult members..

          Wise gay Scouts, who do not believe the Scout Law speaks to homosexuality as morally wrong, will remain quiet about their orientation, just as they do now.

        • Continue to lie and be dishonest with themselves even as an adult. I guess that is the homosexual and homosexual advocate mindset. As long as it appears true, it is true and and deceiving other Scouts and the organization at large is fine as long as it is “fair” in the homosexual group’s eyes.

        • Wouldn’t it be nice if we lived in a world where all people felt they were free to be who they are and not hide things from other people. I suppose there will be gay scouts that continue to do this just as they do in every walk of life, because they fear abuse, banishment, and persecution.

        • Then why don’t they make one of a million other choices with their lives and live happily ever after? Why? Because they want to what they cannot achieve; the highest award in Scouting. Now that is possible and many, many of the experienced adults that supported youth in an organization of high moral and ethical standards are leaving. Hopefully you folks can sustain it in some form. The bloom will soon be off the rose and then you will be dealing with thorns of unexpected consequences like Boy Scout uniforms in a Gay Pride parade alongside thongs and halters.

        • Why would it be bad if new training materials will be tolerant and understanding of celibate homosexual Scouts, and encourage heterosexual Scouts to avoid offending or bullying them?
          Surely we expect the same from Scouts towards those of other religious, cultural, racial, and socio-economic backgrounds, as well as mentally and/or physically disabled Scouts?
          Surely a Scout is kind, friendly, and courteous?

        • Those training materials will restrict the free speech of straight Scouts to speak their mind about what is in their eyes sinful behavior. There will be no dialogue I believe to allow for different viewpoints. It will be totally one-sided. You do not support a straight Scout being able to speak his mind do you?

        • Fred said: “You do not support a straight Scout being able to speak his mind do you?” Sure I do. Your proteges are free to say that they have been taught that homosexuality is immoral. Other scouts are free to tell your scouts that they have been taught that intolerance for the differences among us is immoral.

        • EagleMom,
          Many of us don’t have any issues with the concept of kindness. respect, charity, etc nor have any desire to offend anyone individually, regardless of their orientation. But all those other attributes you are talking about don’t necessarily carry a specifc action with them.
          When many Scouting units are chartered to Christian religions who believe deeply that practicing homosexuality is sinful, and their youth program (Scouting) is part of their ministry, would you suggest they stop teaching that homosexuality is a sin? I ask because whenever a Christian suggests that is a sin, the LGBT community tends to react strongly – suggesting it is offensive, hateful, bigoted, etc.
          In my own religion, our practice is that being gay itself is not sinful, but practicing homosexual acts is. Ultimately, our goal, particularly with inclusion, is that young men who are gay, or who have same sex attraction as it is being called now, will be motivated to not live that lifestyle, and choose either a heterosexual life or celibate life. Yet teaching that very concept is labeled as offensive and abusive. Even suggesting that homosexuality is a sin is considered highly offensive.
          That puts us in a very awkward position. How do we then continue to use Scouting as part of our youth ministry (there will be folks suggesting that it shouldn’t be, but that has always been one of the tenets – the Venturing even has programming and awards for that)?

        • The situation in our Church exactly. We welcome celibate homosexual youth but counsel them before they become a member. We believe that is following scripture exactly. Scouting is one of many programs that serve Youth in our Church. Our Youth minister is waiting until after the Convention to see what is recommended and see the BSA training materials to see if it constitutes indoctrination or support for the homosexual lifestyle.

          BSA is not a Church, however.

          The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

          Don’t see how you get their with the new policy.

        • Fred. Your driving me nuts. You wrote: “The situation in our Church exactly. We welcome celibate homosexual youth but counsel them before they become a member.” That’s pretty much what the new BSA policy is. So what are you so upset about? Your church doesn’t kick out gay kids. So why should the BSA?

        • Its not that hard to figure out db. I’ve said it many times in many ways.

          The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

          We accept all fallen people in a church and do not condemn them. We understand many have immoral tendencies that may lead them to sin. We do not place them in positions of leadership or instruction of others, Their tendencies brings the risk of sinful behavior and bad judgment causing a brother or sister to stumble. I believe homosexuality sets a bad example for other Scouts when the organization is trying to instill high ethical and moral values in Youth. In Church, we can counsel them, in BSA, we will have to restrict our speech and confuse Christian Scouts and the leaders who know me and what I believe and live by.

        • Fred – Isn’t the mission of your church to instill Christian beliefs and make moral choices over their lifetime? I think it would be more confusing to your youth to try and understand why its okay for a sinner to sit in your church on Sunday morning and participate in church life, but its not okay for a sinner to sit in a troop meeting or go on a hike. I must add – I’m glad to hear that your church doesn’t kick gay youth out. At least in that one aspect of Christian charity our church’s agree.

        • Our kids are taught homosexual tendencies are immoral. They know the Church is full of sinners and they are one but that if sitting in a Church as a Church member that they are repentant. If you don’t know the difference between BSA and Church and BSA and a Social Club, I can’t help you. In Church, we would lead that person to a celibate and moral lifestyle. In Socuting, I will not be able to counsel at all even if asked.

        • @Fred Cooper

          >>>>Those training materials will restrict the free speech of straight Scouts to speak their mind about what is in their eyes sinful behavior. There will be no dialogue I believe to allow for different viewpoints. It will be totally one-sided. You do not support a straight Scout being able to speak his mind do you?

          I think there’s a time and a place for pointing out that someone else’s behavior is, according to your own belief system but not theirs, sinful. The vast majority of the time, it’s not appropriate, let alone kind, friendly, or courteous. We do not think it would be appropriate for a Jewish Scout to point out to a Christian Scout that eating bacon is sinful, or for a Catholic Scout to point out that another Scout’s parents’ divorce is sinful, or for one Christian Scout to tell another that dressing up for Halloween is sinful.
          In Scouting, we expect boys to put aside these differences of religious belief and focus on what they have in common. Do they have the *right* to say these things? Yes, of course, we all have the right to free speech. Is saying these things kind, or friendly, or courteous? No, it is not.

          I believe that honorable scouts will have no problem getting along with other Scouts who may not share their religious beliefs as to what is and what is not sinful. In fact, getting along with others is a core value of the Scouting Movement.

        • Just as I thought. You would support limiting speech in Scouting. Boys have to learn to take a moral stand in life and Scouts. We do not excuse bad behavior just to be friendly, courteous and kind. Where is the friendly, courteous and kind understanding on the other side.

          I thought instilling high ethical and moral values through character education was a core value of Scouting. Not so as of January 1 in my belief system.

          I don’t see “why can’t we all just get along” in the Scout Oath and Law. Boys should be held to a higher standard and be able to recognize moral and immoral behavior in others and establish a high moral and ethical code to live by and be a citizen of high character.

        • EagleMom,
          It would be very appropriate for a Scout unit chartered to a Jewish synagogue to discuss their beliefs on a campout, talking about their dietary beliefs and why, particularly around the campfire. That’s one of the best methods of teaching young men – which is why so many religious organizations use Scouting as their program for working with young men.
          I would agree that in a unit chartered to a community group, with no religious affiliation, that it would be inappropriate to offer your judgment of other’s lifestyles. On the other hand, if we are doing the full Scouting program, we should be providing opportunities for young men to discuss their beliefs in a safe manner – with respect and free from harassment. That could very well include a Scout mentioning their belief that homosexuality is a sin – particularly with older groups. That shouldn’t cause contention – most religions have beliefs that others would disagree with. I deally that would be a legitimate discussion, and the Scoutmaster would have a responsibility to manage that and ensure it is done with respect. Although, even if it happened that way, in my experience, activists would cry out harassment. I have never accused anyone of being sinful, only suggest that I believe differently. Experience has taught me that the LGBT community is no satisfied with that – only that I never make the suggestion or even believe it.

        • @ Concerned About Youth

          >>>>EagleMom, Many of us don’t have any issues with the concept of kindness. respect, charity, etc nor have any desire to offend anyone individually, regardless of their orientation.

          Good! It sounds like we can agree that kindness, friendliness, and courteousness are shared values. It’s the details of how to apply those values in this case where we may differ.

          >>>>But all those other attributes you are talking about don’t necessarily carry a specifc action with them.

          Nor, in this case, does homosexuality. The BSA makes it absolutely clear that it is changing the policy to be accepting of CELIBATE gay Scouts. They clearly say “Any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.” They do not restrict this statement to sexual conduct within the context of Scouting. There is clear language here on which to remove Scouts who are sexually active, whether in homosexual or heterosexual relationships. (I am assuming here they are leaving aside those few boys of Scouting age who are married.)

          >>>>When many Scouting units are chartered to Christian religions who believe deeply that practicing homosexuality is sinful, and their youth program (Scouting) is part of their ministry, would you suggest they stop teaching that homosexuality is a sin?

          I think teaching about sexual morality in general is outside the scope of Scouting. In the context of a troop that is made up only of the CO church’s members, things may be a bit different, as in that case the lines between Scouting and non-Scouting events and relationships may be less clearly drawn.

          >>>>I ask because whenever a Christian suggests that is a sin, the LGBT community tends to react strongly – suggesting it is offensive, hateful, bigoted, etc.

          Remember that LGBT people do not all think the same way. I would assume that any LGBT members of your church are more likely to share your church’s views as to the morality of homosexual behavior.

          >>>>In my own religion, our practice is that being gay itself is not sinful, but practicing homosexual acts is. Ultimately, our goal, particularly with inclusion, is that young men who are gay, or who have same sex attraction as it is being called now, will be motivated to not live that lifestyle, and choose either a heterosexual life or celibate life. Yet teaching that very concept is labeled as offensive and abusive. Even suggesting that homosexuality is a sin is considered highly offensive.

          This teaching does not seem to be incompatible with the new BSA policy. As I said above, it’s quite clear that the BSA policy applies only to celibate homosexuals.

          That said, it may be inappropriate for a Scout leader to teach that “homosexual acts = sin” to youth members who are not members of his own church, in the same way that most parents would be upset if a Scout leader taught their children beliefs that were contrary to their own. I wouldn’t want a Jewish Scout leader to be teaching a Catholic Scout that his choice of bacon for breakfast is sinful. At the same time, if it came up in conversation, I wouldn’t have a problem with a Jewish Scout to mention that *in his religion*, bacon = sin.

          >>>>That puts us in a very awkward position. How do we then continue to use Scouting as part of our youth ministry (there will be folks suggesting that it shouldn’t be, but that has always been one of the tenets – the Venturing even has programming and awards for that)?

          The idea of using Scouting as an outreach to non-Christians or the unchurched is a tricky one. It’s a very narrow path, which must be walked carefully. For me, the old saying to “preach the Gospel, and if necessary, use words” is the best, and most effective, approach.

        • Agee. “using Scouting as an outreach to non-Christians or the unchurched” is not what I am talking about, but more of an “in reach” for members of your Church.
          You’re correct – I can’t really speak to all LGBT people, just like anyone else. But there is a strong component that is very vocal. There are even factions trying to criminalize anyone (thereapists, counselors, etc) who would suggest there is anything wrong with the behavior.
          I’m not sure that I agree with you that the BSA only applies to celibate homosexuals. The policy is pretty specific – even though the talking points make it clear sex is inappropriate for a Scout, the policy itself doesn’t require celibacy whatsoever. It only states that a youth may not be excluded on the basis of sexual orientation alone. The argument can be made, and I expect will be before long, that the orientation can’t be said to be separate from the behavior.
          The problem is that currently, we don’t exclude youth if they are sexual now. In 30 years as a leader and commissioner, haven’t seen a single case of removing a boy from Scouting because he is sexually active. With the aggressiveness of the Scouting For All and other activists groups, you can be sure the first time a young man is removed from Scouting because of homosexual sex, there will be a string of lawsuits.
          The Kaitlyn Hunt story from Florida is a perfect example.

        • You know, I guess what I am really saying, is I really have no problem with the policy statement as it is. My problem is the inevitable result. First off, it renders the previous legal battles mute. The new policy specifically excluding homosexual men while saying there’s really no problem with being homosexual, is a bit disingenuous – kind of like the old Seinfeld jokes – he’s gay, but there’s nothing wrong with that. This new change has now become a weak point in the armor so to speak. The LGBT activists groups know now that it is only a matter of time and effort to force the full acceptance. It also specifically removes the moral component of homosexuality in the discussion, at least as far as BSA goes. I know not everyone shares that belief, but I do. Ultimately, the politics of “inclusion” will overshadow the rest of the issues and prevent real progress, just force people to hide their beliefs.
          I do know that the LGBT activist community stifles any potential research into potential causes. There was a study done a while back suggesting a causal link between early sexualization and homosexuality – it wasn’t suggesting that was the cause, but a potential cause. That research has been pretty much forced out of availability – not because of the quality of the research, but because it didn’t fit what was acceptable. Unfortunately, if a young man felt same sex attraction but didn’t want to live that way, the politics of the situation are denying him anyway to manage that.

        • Hi Trenton- regarding the new policy by the BSA not stating that homosexuality is immoral. The BSA started down that road last year when they reaffirmed the ban on homosexuals. The BSA press releases noticeably stopped saying that homosexuals were immoral or unclean. The expressed reason why the BSA continued the ban was that the majority of existing parents were in favor of the ban. There were no longer the judgement statements that had been in the BSA’s statements a decade earlier.

        • db Do you believe that adult homosexuals have a place in the BSA. Do you believe that GLAAD and the GLBT have a place in the BSA. Please let us know. Sincerely Trenton Spears

        • @Fred Cooper

          >>>>Just as I thought. You would support limiting speech in Scouting. Boys have to learn to take a moral stand in life and Scouts. We do not excuse bad behavior just to be friendly, courteous and kind. Where is the friendly, courteous and kind understanding on the other side…..Boys should be held to a higher standard and be able to recognize moral and immoral behavior in others and establish a high moral and ethical code to live by and be a citizen of high character.

          I think you read my post more broadly than I was intending. Let me try again.

          Many years ago, my son was in a cub scout den with a few other boys from my neighborhood. The boys went to several different churches. The moms in charge of organizing the den wanted to do a Halloween activity, as Halloween has a long history of celebration in our neighborhood. But I suspected that one of the other boys’ families did not celebrate Halloween, due to their particular denomination of Christianity. I inquired, and it turned out I was correct.

          We decided instead to do an activity around pumpkins – a “fall” activity rather than a “Halloween” activity – to avoid creating a conflict between a Scouting activity and this boy’s religious beliefs. This, I think, was the friendly, kind, and courteous thing to do. We altered our plans specifically to include this boy. Was it required of us? No. The other families in the den not only celebrated Halloween, they loved it! But they agreed, out of kindness, to leave their celebrations outside of Scouting for the sake of this boy and his family. I think this story illustrates the appropriate application of kindness within Scouting.

          Now, on the day of the activity, the boy’s mom came to the meeting and started preaching, directly to the boys, about how celebrating Halloween was sinful. While she firmly believed this, it was simply not appropriate for her to discuss it with the boys (whose families did not share this belief) in the context of Scouts. It was not kind, or friendly, or courteous. In this case, while she had First Amendment rights, and she was truly concerned that the boys’ actions on Halloween would be sinful, it was not her place to impose her beliefs on the boys without their parents’ permission. While we all agreed the boys should be “morally straight”, we had differing views on how that applied to Halloween.

          The BSA leaves the issue of celebrating Halloween or not celebrating it up to each family to decide. Local troops can be sensitive to the beliefs of their members in choosing activities, but they shouldn’t be dictating or enforcing beliefs about sin in this matter to the boys.

          It is the same way with sexuality. The BSA clearly states “The BSA believes parents should decide if, when, and how to discuss matters of sexuality with their kids.” Thus in the vast majority of circumstances it would be inappropriate for a Scout leader to be discussing sexuality of ANY kind, heterosexual OR homosexual, with ANY Scouts, regardless of any of the Scout leader’s religious beliefs around sexuality.

      • Beth your argument on if there was no ban is living in the homosexual la la land. The BSA defended the right to exclude homosexuals from scouting and that reinstated the policy and was the ruling of the Supreme Court. It resulted in keeping the BSA a morally straight organization. Beth just because you and a few others do not like the ruling is a losing argument. The ban was constitutional and it reflected the views of the major majority of scouters across this nation. It resulted in assuring to most of the scouters that they could be confident that it would protect the scouts from the homosexual agenda. Laws are laws if you don’t like them change them before you break them. The lifting of the ban on May 23rd 2013 was the vote of 854 delegates and you and the other homosexuals supporters should be celebrating and not be twisting the truth to defend your stand. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

        • I’m not twisting the truth, Trenton. I understand the Dale decision. I understand that the ban was considered to be constitutional. That doesn’t mean that I have to agree that it was right and just. I have broken no laws, but I have been an advocate for changing the BSA policy on allowing open gay members.

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