BSA membership policy resolution released, will be voted on in May

The Boy Scouts of America’s Executive Committee today released its membership policy resolution, which proposes removing the restriction denying membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation alone and maintaining the current membership policy for all adult leaders of the Boy Scouts of America.

The resolution, if passed, would be effective Jan. 1, 2014. You can read a summary below or see the complete text at this link (PDF).

Next up, the resolution is sent to all voting delegates, a group of volunteers from every BSA council, who will put it to a vote at the National Annual Meeting next month.

The resolution comes after a lengthy review process in which the BSA gathered perspectives from inside and outside the Scouting family. The five-page Membership Standards Study Initiative Executive Summary (PDF) explains in detail the key findings from this review.

For those with questions, the BSA has prepared this comprehensive list of FAQs (PDF) about the resolution.

Here’s the resolution:

Youth membership in the Boy Scouts of America is open to all youth who meet the specific membership requirements to join the Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, Sea Scout, and Venturing programs. Membership in any program of the Boy Scouts of America requires the youth member to (a) subscribe to and abide by the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law, (b) subscribe to and abide by the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle (duty to God), and (c) demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.

BSA media statement

In February, the Boy Scouts of America embarked on the most comprehensive listening exercise in its history to consider the impact of potential changes to its membership standards policy on the organization and gather perspectives from inside and outside of the Scouting family.  This review created an outpouring of feedback from the Scouting family and the American public, from both those who agree with the current policy and those who support a change.

Scouting’s review confirmed that this issue remains among the most complex and challenging issues facing the BSA and society today.  Even with the wide range of input, it is extremely difficult to accurately quantify the potential impact of maintaining or changing the current policy. While perspectives and opinions vary significantly, parents, adults in the Scouting community, and teens alike tend to agree that youth should not be denied the benefits of Scouting.

For this reason, the Executive Committee, on behalf of the National Executive Board, wrote a resolution for consideration that would remove the restriction denying membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation alone and would maintain the current membership policy for all adult leaders of the Boy Scouts of America.   The proposed resolution also reinforces that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.

The voting members will take action on the resolution during the Boy Scouts of America’s National Annual Meeting next month.

America needs Scouting, and our policies must be based on what is in the best interest of our nation’s children. Throughout this process, we work to stay focused on that which unites us, reaching and serving young people to help them grow into good, strong citizens. Our priority remains to continue accomplishing incredible things for young people and the communities we serve. 


May 8, 2013 update: Thanks to everyone for their feedback on this post. The comments section is now closed. -Bryan


About Bryan Wendell 3282 Articles
Bryan Wendell, an Eagle Scout, is the founder of Bryan on Scouting and a contributing writer.

1,287 Comments

  1. I am so disapointed! As a woman, I have never been restricted from boy scout leadership positions. If the Boy Scouts are so concerned about sex among leaders and scouts, they would need to restrict women leaders just as they are restricting gay male leaders. If the Boy Scouts are concerned that gay men would corrupt a boy scout into becoming gay, they are totally missing the scientific fact that homosexuality is not a choice, but something you’re born with. This new policy is almost as exclusionary and bigotted as their old one. My 12 year old son and I have discussed this, and if he wants to quit boy scouts I will support him.

    • I hope he does not quit but becomes a friend/mentor to any boy that joins because of the change to the membership policy.

    • I support your position, but I urge you, as I am doing, to try and cause change to the BSA from within. If we remain part of the conversation, we will HELP the needed change come!

    • I don’t think it’s a matter of sex among leaders but more of opening a breeding ground and more law suits. If you look at the news reports of adults in leadership position (such as teachers, priests, and scout leaders) then the question becomes, how do you protect these scouts?

      Is the money they lose by not changing the policy, going to be more or less than the amount of listed in numerous lawsuits by allowing adult leaders.

      • Matt how about protection from being fondled, raped, and otherwised abused by these admitted sexual perverts

      • Protection from a deviant lifestyle that does not follow nature. Deviant means outside normal operating procedures.

      • Dear Joe: isn’t that why we have a Youth Protection Policy in place, one that we tout so strongly when these “old” cases come back to “haunt” the BSA? If this is the concern, then perhaps our policy is not as sacrosanct as we say it is.

      • That doesn’t protect scouts from eachother when they are two to a tent with no adult supervision in the tent after lights out.

      • WPK, Yes we have YPT, but when parents decide to not attend campouts and treat the BSA as baby sitters of America, where is the check and balance?

        This is why I go on all my sons campouts, because it’s my duty as a parent.

      • Star Scout Mom: this new proposed change doesn’t exclude homosexual scouts, only homosexual leaders.

      • There is obviously a culture of hate at work here. I’ve heard all kinds of crazy reasons for why every homosexual adult MUST be a child molester. (Why do we not allow ONLY gay women to serve in Boy Scouts then? Sorry, tangental.)

        But I guess the real statement I need to make is if “doing the right thing” should be based on any financial or longevity consideration at all.

      • Why is this considered a culture of hate?

        This is a matter of not wanting to be apart of something I do not agree with.

        If this is considered a culture of hate, than it could be said the same thing because I don’t hang around the local jail or prison, or because I don’t go to Lowe’s or Kmart, or Wendy’s.

        There may be some that do hate the gay group. And there are some that hate the fact that the gay community wants to invade and change something because they feel slighted.

        Isn’t there a group setup for gay scouts already? What’s wrong with that organization that has the same values and actions?

      • So, so sad. So it’s about the money now and not about right and wrong.

        I’m so disappointed. Is this supposed to be seen as the political first step towards change (baby step), or should it be viewed as an organization afraid to be leaders and taking strong measures towards change?

        So a declared homosexual can get to enjoy all the benefits of showing his leadership qualities to become Eagle and, oh, by the way when you turn 18, we don’t need or want you anymore. How truly sad to exclude an entire class of leaders based on one attribute of who they are! Still feels like discrimination to me.
        …i agree with “db”, this pleases no one.

    • You may even consider starting a separate organization. Many successful organizations have been created from similar challenges. With half the effort to change an existing organization that you may disagree with, you can create a spectacular organization that opposes the challenge. Well wishes!

      • Gabriel I agree with you .Taking exactly from the scout criteria ” (b) subscribe to and abide by the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle (duty to God),” how does that agree with duty to god when the bible states “Thou shall not lay with another man”

      • It is not my intention to discredit the Bible, but this is more of a privately owned organization issue. A privately owned organization can make unpopular decisions to support the beliefs or moral values of it’s owners. If one disagrees with the owners beliefs or moral values, they have the opportunity to create another privately owned organization.

      • The BSA is not a Christian organization. Just because you and your religion believes homosexuality to be immoral, does not mean that me and my religion believe the same.

      • Apologies if I did not clarify my perspective. I did not state that the BSA is a Christian organization. Simply that it is a privately owned organization. The owners (I am not certain) may be Christian. Regardless of their perspective on life, they are still the owners of the privately owned organization. They have the final say in how their organization operates.

      • Not sure. I thought it was a great idea. Why ‘fight the power’ when one can simply empower themselves to a level of respect that cannot be ignored?

    • There are no scientific facts to support this. You are believing a lie. Have you read these ‘scientific’ facts or are you relying on the word of CNN, ABC, CBS and NBC and all of the other Liberal media?

      • It is important to note that BSA states (in the Executive Summary) that this is not a youth protection issue, either with respect to abuse, ‘role modeling’. (Read the Executive Summary, linked to by Brian in the story)

      • I posted this already in response to another comment, but with so much conversation, I know things are sometimes missed. I do not claim in any way to be an expert on scientific study of sexuality, but I do know that the statements about the origin of sexual orientation of preference are from people doing peer-reviewed science over several decades. Again, not my area of expertise, so I am summarizing below material from David Myers.

        Dr. David Myers is a professor of Psychology at the Reformed Church in America’s Hope College, New Holland, MI. His basic text, Psychology, is widely used at Christian colleges and other schools nationwide. In that text, Myers assembled the following references:

        M. D. Storms, 1983, established that homosexuality is not the result of a domineering mother, an ineffectual father, a hostile father, rejection of the other gender, levels of sex hormones, molestation or sexual victimization. Bell & Hammersmith had already determined in 1981 (“Sexual Preference: Its Development in Men and Women”) that parental relationships, childhood sexual experiences, dating experiences, and peer relationships were not the reasons. Ludwig, 1995 (“The Price of Greatness”), did find that homosexuality was about 10 times more likely among men who were poets, fiction writers, artists, or musicians than in the general population.

        Three studies have determined that brothers born later in the family are progressively more likely to be gay than the older brothers: Blanchard, 1997 (“Birth order and sibling sex ratio in homosexual and heterosexual males and females,” Annual Review of Sex Research) and 2008 (“Review and history of handedness, birth order, and homosexuality in men,” Laterality), and Bogaert, 2003 (“Biological versus nonbiological older brothers and men’s sexual orientation,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences). This only holds when the brothers are biological, not adopted. This effect does not appear in women.

        Bagemihl, 1999 (Biological Exuberance), identified several hundred species of animals in which same-sex relations appear. Between 6% and 10% of rams on ranches display same-sex attraction, according to Perkins & Fitzgerald, 1997 (“Sexual orientation in domestic rams: Some biological and social correlates,” in Ellis and Eberts, Sexual Orientation).

        A blind study of brains of homosexual and heterosexual people (blind meaning that the researcher did not know which brains were from which categories of people) found a cluster of cells in the hypothalamus that is reliably larger in gay men than in other men or in women (LeVay, 1991, “A difference in hypothalamic structure between heterosexual and homosexual men,” Science). Savic & Lindstrom, 2008 (“PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences), also established that in lesbian women and heterosexual men reliably have right brain hemispheres that are larger than left, while gay men and heterosexual women reliably have more balanced brain hemispheres. Rahman and Wilson, 2003 (“Born Gay?” Personality and Individual Differences), established that brain differences develop very early in life.

        Twin studies are the gold standard for establishing heritability (genetic factors) of our characteristics. Langstrom, 2008 (“Genetic and environmental effects on same-sex sexual behavior,” Archives of Sexual Behavior), established that identical twins (those whose genetic material is essentially identical) share the same orientation more often than fraternal twins (who have had as much common life experience as identical twins, but only as much genetic similarity as any siblings). There are measurable differences between homosexual men and heterosexual men, as populations, in spatial abilities, fingerprint ridge counts, auditory system development, handedness, relative finger length, and body size. A study of 200,000 people worldwide found the same kinds of differences between the , two populations world-wide (Lippa, two studies reported in Archives of Sexual Behavior in 2007, and another in 2008).

        This Christian professor at this rather conservative Christian college concludes, “Regardless of the process, the consistency of brain, genetic, and prenatal findings has swung the pendulum toward a biological explanation of sexual orientation.

      • SR, I read the site to which you linked. It dealt with some of the studies Dr. Myers referenced. In each case, it set up a sort of straw man, by pointing out that the study did not determine that x or y or z was *the* biological cause. That isn’t what any of these studies claimed to do. Each of them either found no statistically significant correlation between homosexuality and something that has commonly been claimed to be a cause (such as domineering mothers), or found a statistically significant correlation between a biological factor and homosexuality. I’m sure that you know that this is the way science works: not by proving in one study what the cause of something is (that would take experimentation, and we don’t set up controlled studies where we subject babies to procedures we think may determine their sexuality), but by incrementally describing and exploring different aspects of problem.

        The way the page dealt with LeVay is instructive here. Myers also notes that LeVay is homosexual. And then he describes the way in which the research was done: blind examination of a large number of brain scans, without labels. Without knowing whose brain was which, leVay identified a structural difference that was reliable, and when the scans then were identified with the individuals, that structural difference proved to be reliably associated with gay males. Your link does not deal with the method of the research at all, but only with two data points: that the research was gay, and that he said that he had not proven *the* cause. Claim A expects us to reject the research because the researcher is gay, and Claim B misunderstands how scientific research works.

        Your link also relies on Exodus International as proof for its assertions, but Exodus International since January 2012 has changed a number of its positions, and it might be worth looking into that.

        All aspects of human behavior have complex causes, made up of both nature and nurture. What Dr. Myers has said is that the amount of significant and reliable data pointing to a contribution from genetics, from brain structure, from prenatal environment is large and growing, and significant enough to warrant the statement that homosexual orientation is at least in part biological.

  2. This is not what I expected. So the policy says – gay youth, you’re okay. Gay adults, you’re not okay. What a mess. This pleases no one.

    • Actually — it pleases a lot of people. Check the survey results that are attached to the article. More than 200,000 people submitted surveys and what they wanted was a change in the youth policy, not in the adult policy. The whole issue is about the best assurance of safety for the youth and when you entrust your children to adults, you just have to take your best shot in doing what you think is the right thing for your kids.
      I agree with the change in the youth membership. As far as the adult membership…I think you must do what the majority of the parents of scouts want. It is THEIR kids who are affected.

      • Doing a survey is a bad idea to begin with. The policy should be determined on what is right, not allowing homosexual scouts or scouters, and not based on the culture wave and a few corporate thugs with deep pockets. From the beginning it disappointed me that this ever came up. BSA has failed by lacking integrity and it will never be the same again. So in the end, everyone loses.

    • Disagreed. I’m far more pleased with this policy than I was with the last proposal. This allows my boys and I to remain in Scouting, which the last proposal did not.

    • db, this is simply a half step by the Executive Committee in order to appease some chartered orgs. I’m very disappointed with this resolution, I just wish there were a way to vote “Yes”, “No”, or “Try Again” in Texas in May. I think they need to “Try Again”.

  3. As a Cub Scout leader and a parent, I strongly support a change in the national policy to include ALL Americans in the BSA!

  4. Thank you so much! I am so proud of Scouting for considering this step. I’m the mom of a Bear Cub who wants to be an Eagle and we are a family who considers discrimination wrong.

    • Please why you call this discrimination.

      There is another established organization that supports the gay community, have you looked into joining them?

      • discrimination = The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

  5. What about Adults, and their role in the Scouting Movement? It would be great to pass this resolution, I am all for that wording, however, when a gay scout obtains his eagle, stays in a crew, or not and wants to become an adult leader, what of that boy then?

    Then what about the parents of scouts that are not straight, dedicated, live up to all the expectations of the program, can they be a leader in their sons’s Den/Troop/Pack/Crew/Team?

    Did I miss something?

    • Excellent point. What does that say to a young man that finds so the program worthy as a boy but unable to pay back the program that assisted him in becoming a fine young man.

    • After reading the full text this is my reaction…
      … to say I am disappointed is putting it lightly. BSA is still passing moral judgement on people and placing families with homosexual members (even extended members, aunts, etc) in a very awkward position that will result in boys not being exposed to a program that can really benefit every boy. This saddens me greatly.

      • I would have to disagree with your statement that the BSA is passing moral judgement. So the fact that AARP doesn’t accept someone age 48 or 49 is also discriminatory?

        All they are doing is reinforcing the joining policy that people want to be apart of and accept.

      • The AARP is an organization that is primarily concerned with age-related issues. Hence, they select their members based on age.

        The freedom of association laws say that you can indeed restrict your membership in ways that are fundamental to the organization’s purpose. The courts can’t (and won’t) force a Catholic church to ordain a Gay, nor to ordain a Methodist. The Catholic’s have a clear and consistent set of beliefs that are core to being “Catholic”. That same line of reasoning also dismisses the argument that admitting Gays means that the BSA would have to admit girls.

        From what I’ve read, until the Dale case the BSA had never argued that sexual orientation was a fundamental part of the program. Indeed, even now the BSA’s policy is that it’s irrelevant to the program. The BSA’s current “weak don’t ask don’t tell” policy would seem to indicate that the Dale decision was wrongly decided, since sexual orientation is irrelevant to the program. (See “A Right to Discriminate”, Koppelman and Wolff).

  6. The proposal “… would remove the restriction denying membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation alone and would maintain the current membership policy for all adult leaders … ” does not go far enough since it is maintaining the status quo against adult leaders. That is wrong, prejudicial, and discriminatory.

    • This is not discrimination. It is a grouping of people with the same interests and morals.

      The requirements are clear as a private group. Same as the requirements for driving a car, everybody has to meet these requirements. Can the blind drive? What about 10 years, are they allowed to drive.

      If that is something that cannot be met, then there is nothing stopping you from starting a similar organization with your own rules.

      • It is absolutely discrimination. Just because it is a private organization doing it, doesn’t make it OK. Yes, I believe they have the right to have the policy, but it is still wrong, and shameful, and frankly in violation of the Scout Law.

      • to approve this is against the Scout Law, the Scout Oath, etc. the 3 points of the Scout Law can not be upheld if you allow these perverts into the organization, the 12th point of the Scout Law can not be upheld with these perverts. To Approve this would be a travesty

      • No where in the scout law does it say “not allowing gays to join”. Scouts are still going to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.

        Being brave means standing up for what you believe in regardless of what others around are choosing to do. Compromising by allowing those that aren’t morally straight to join isn’t being brave, it’s being cowardly.

        What is being called discrimination is an accepted set of rules for joining. So where is all fuss over laws preventing 10 and 11 years old children from driving? Is that not discrimination according to your example?

        I find it amazing the first word people want to use is discrimination. The correct wording is accepted rules of the group. this means they have something in common that all are choosing to abide by. If anyone feels left out, then don’t forget that option of creating your own group.

      • so what about not allowing atheiests , is that discriminatory also , do u think the bsa should allow them in also .

      • Being gay does not make one immoral, that is what the BSA is saying, that is what the majority of the Religious Chartered Partners are saying, and the non Religious ones as well. To state that being gay is immoral is ignorant and intolerant, and smacks at the Scout Oath in that it most certainly is not being “Mentally Awake”

      • Not sure where you saw the article verifying “majority of the Religious Chartered Partners are saying, and the non Religious ones as well”, but I would have to disagree. Please site your reference.

      • What you’re saying is that any private organization can discriminate and it should be ok? Please tell me when the KKK becomes acceptable, seeing as they are a private, discriminatory organization.

      • Is the KKK a private group? It has a constitutional right to exist. Not one that I support. But that is a red herring and off topic.

        However, the point here is simply this, this is a group that has certain aspects that when joining, you agree to. It is a group of common bonds, likes and possible dislikes.

        There is a LGBT groups for people who obviously have or want to be a part of a group with other people who also have a common bond, like and dislike.

        Dopes that meant the two are compatible? I would probable say no. Just like there are people who like Ford’s and others who like Chevy’s. They are private car groups that also discriminate.

      • When the Supremes sided with the BSA in Dale (et. al.) they noted that the policy was indeed discrimination and that they did not agree with it but still a question of free association of a private organization. They were right.

      • Ah, but the thing is, Joe, that we don’t all have the same morals. We all agree to the Oath and Law, but our interpretations of what those mean may be very different.

  7. This is a cop-out.

    Where is the moral leadership our youth need to show them that our morals are more important than money?

    Was it not Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego that gave us the example of holding strong to our convictions?

    Society is quickly losing it’s moral compass based on God’s law and religious based groups and people are becoming the minority.

    If “morally straight” is kept and youth are allowed to join with these tendencies, then is that not hypocritical?

    Our schools are littered with liberal and radical ideas, such as evolution. Yet, there is no evolution, or reproduction, when men “lay with another man as a woman”.

    The Boy Scouts of America’s Executive Committee needs to be leaders, not CEO’s, and if that is not possible, then step down.

    • Don’t apply your Christian values to Scouting. There are other religions that don’t discriminate against people because of their sexual preference. Scouting is not an exclusively Christian nation.

      Discrimination, for any reason, is WRONG!

      • Sorry I said “nation” when I meant “organization”. Scouting accepts youth from all religions. Just because yours is full of bigots don’t assume they all are.

      • So your saying girls and pedophiles should also be allowed because that’s discrimination and they can’t join?

      • Girls can be venture scouts and pedophilia is illegal. Not sure why you insist on linking homosexuality and pedophilia?

        Correlating gay adults with pedophiles is the same as saying “you’re heterosexual, therefore you’re attracted to 12 year old girls”

      • Pedophilia is a crime against nature as children aren’t physically capable of understanding or handling sex.

        I did not link them together, you did. I only listed other groups that could claim discrimination because the rules that are in place.

      • For ANY reason? Really? So a convicted murderer is ok? How about a Holocaust denier? How about a man convicted of molesting 8 year olds?

        I suspect you didnt mean “ANY”. So basically, we’re agreed that we should discriminate. The question is, on what basis. For me, I’m going to follow a combination of common sense and God’s law.

        Rob

      • Murderer = criminal.
        Holocaust denier = loon but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

        Which “God’s Law” are you applying because BSA isn’t exclusive to Christianity?

      • It’s winter still, cobwebs and sluggishness are keeping some people from understanding that their cup doesn’t hold water.

        Murder is a crime against nature.

        God’s Law is natural. Unfortunately, people want to pick and choose what things they want to believe. So I’ll say it straight forward like this and break it down potato-head style:

        If you charge an item on your visa card, you have so many days to either pay it off, return it, or accept the interest charges. You can pick and choose which ones you think are appropriate or correct, however, they all are still in affect.

        When a man lies with another man as you would a woman, there is no ability to reproduce naturally. When a woman lies with another woman as she would with a man, there is no ability to reproduce naturally.

        This is the most basic value of nature. Any species that cannot reproduce will become extinct. Is there anything right in this situation?

      • Yet I read a doc authored by BP that indicated he did just that. Yes BSA is open to all religions but the core values are based in Christianity according to BP.

    • It is absolutely discrimination. Just because it is a private organization doing it, doesn’t make it OK. Yes, I believe they have the right to have the policy, but it is still wrong, and shameful, and frankly in violation of the Scout Law.

      • If the rules of scrabble say that you must make a word known to humanity, then you can’t put a hodge-podge letters down for points. Is that also discrimination?

      • No, it actually isn’t. The policy says that boys of any sexual “orientation” must be celibate. For a 15 year old scout to have sex with a girl or boy is to break the oath. So, how is that discriminatory?

    • If you are allowed to join with these tendencies? Don’t be so naive. Young gay men are already in the Boy Scouts. The question is whether or not to allow them to be honest about who they are.

      I am an Eagle Scout. I am also gay. I knew I was gay when I was in Scouts. I also knew that I had to lie to stay in Scouts. It was a terrible situation to be in.

      • You should give back the Eagle rank, which still belongs to the BSA, as you have committed an honor violation

      • He did not break any rules. The BSA currently and since 1991 has been under a don’t ask, don’t tell policy. The BSA does not actively ask about orientation.

      • SR121, you are the honor violation here, make no mistake about that. How embarrassing you are to the Scouting program.

      • I hope you’re not truly as small and angry a person as you’re coming across in these posts. I’m proud to have earned my Eagle Scout badge, to have been a Vigil member of the Order of the Arrow, to have led a troop to the National Jamboree and at the Sea Base High Adventure, and to have served for two years as a staffer at Boy Scout summer camp. Your spite takes nothing away from what I’ve achieved.

      • SR121 they may have you on the gay issue but the Eagle Application clearly requires a letter of recommendation from your religious leader as part of the application so assuming you don’t support atheist in BSA feel free to …

        But you have them on the morality issue as they were intentionally deceptive but a fine line if they don’t ask/don’t tell.

      • the rank belongs only to the person that earned it. carter earned it in this case even if he had to keep silent or face persecution for his beliefs. he is a hero in my book and i am glad he stuck with it and continues to fight against this discrimination.

      • Carter, thank you for sharing your story. It must have been very difficult. Congratulations on your Eagle.

      • Congratulations on your Eagle and I am sure you earned it. I stand with you brother Eagle.

      • Surely you weren’t asked by BSA if you were gay or not. If you were, that would have been an inappropriate question and against the current policy that “BSA does not proactively inquire about sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members”. You would have been well within your rights to decline to answer a question because it is against policy to be asked.

        The current policy only excludes open or avowed homosexuals. In my opinion, keeping your same-sex attraction private means it was not open or avowed. No lying required to keep it private.

    • The “Law” of the old book was replaced by the love and tolerance as shown in Jesus. Your hatred of “the other” is wrong, and you are on the wrong side of history. No doubt you are the type that would have been against BSA letting black youth participate a few decades ago.

      • Have you actually read the Bible at all? There is no possible way you can interpret the New Testament as NOT saying that homosexual behavior is sinful. Indeed, you also must interpret it as saying that ANY sex outside marriage is sinful (something the BSA policy reflects nicely) To read it any other way is to do violence to the text. I can quote passages and context if you like, but I suspect you don’t actually care what the Bible says. Or, in the case of Catholics, what the Church has taught from the Bible for 2000 years.

        Rob

      • Rob that’s only considering a Christian viewpoint. What about the Jewish viewpoint, Buddhist, Taoist, Shintoist, Wiccan, and any other multitude of qualified religious viewpoints? They all have old books too that have been interpreted over the millennia.

      • The Law set forth by Jesus was “go and sin no more”.

        There is no hatred “of other”, it is simply a matter of being in an organization that has like values and expectations. If I wanted to be around “other” then that is where I would hang out.

        So now the gay community is intolerant of the BSA because they want to get in when there is already an organization that accepts them of the same value. Amazing how “intolerant” the gay community is.

  8. Are they kidding!!! A youth can be gay and an Eagle Scout, but once he turns 18 he can no longer be a scouter. Scouting should have a neutral position on sexual orientation for EVERYONE. This is so sad. I am sooo disappointed in the leadership of this otherwise great organization.

    • No different than before with the “don’t ask don’t tell” policy. It should be open to all youth, but Homosexual leaders don’t fit the profile we would expect as role models in the BSA.

      • anyone who teaches that homosexuality somehow makes someone a negative role model is not the type of person that should be in the bsa.

      • Dewey, Without the morally upstanding adults who volunteer to lead the front line positions there would be no BSA. Thank God for the men and women who choose to be leaders in the BSA and thank God for their dedicated service and committment to the oath and law. you don’t have to choise to mold your character to the principles of the BSA. The BSA doesn’t have to mold to you.. good luck in your new organization.. they’ll be happy to have you and I’ll be happy to see you go..

  9. I have to agree with Scout Mom #147. I’m disappointed. I find this half-measure cowardly. By submitting a resolution that states “No youth may be denied membership…” the executive committee is trying to have it both ways. They’ll claim success, because no one will want to vote against “youth.” But they also want to be seen as supporting those who oppose change. Unfortunately, I think this is far from over.

    • You’re right, they are just prolonging the argument and not dealing with it. It’s shameful.

  10. falls short. So a gay scout who earns Eagle and is otherwise the very model of what Lord Baden-Powell envisioned in scouting is precluded from participation once he becomes an adult? It doesn’t even make sense. Such a disappointment that an organization that brings so much to the table in terms of youth development and leadership cannot seem to get the hell out of its own way on this one point. A disappointment – only word that comes to mind.

  11. What happens when openly gay scouts turn 18 and are technically, under current BSA guidelines, no longer considered youth? Many of these men want to continue to be involved with their troops or crews as adult leaders. Would they need to quit at that point due to this new policy?

    Also, will units chartered by religious organizatins which believe homosexual acts to be wrong still be allowed to uphold these beliefs within their programs as long as they allow any openly-gay scouts?

    This policy change is not at all what I expected and is, in my opinion and based on an initial reading, filled with some potential dangers.

  12. So, when a gay youth turns 18, he isn’t allowed to remain involved as an adult leader? If so, this makes no sense.

  13. This is such a disappointment. This is about money. What happens when a gay scout grows up and wants to be a leader? It just opens a whole other debate and further break down of the BSA.

  14. why do I see this as attempt to please everyone and will in the end please no one? I want supportive people in my sons’ lives…..I don’t care about their sexual orientation.

    • It’s about money and caving to those that want to scream discrimination and don’t want to follow the rules of membership.

      • Joe, those who screamed discrimination will still be able to if gay adults are still banned. So, this proposed policy change changes nothing. Groups that are holding back funds because of the current policy will continue to because in their eyes, the change doesn’t go far enough. I just happen to agree with them.
        -Lou
        Eagle Scout 1987
        Woodbadge 2005
        Active scout/scouter for 30 years

  15. I know this is a tough decision for an organization that made such a stand a few years ago, but I am very disappointed. This will help those boys already in the organization, but how can they feel accepted when they will be kicked to the curb and not wanted as scouters when they turn 18 or 21? Be on the right side of history, the side that works to end all kinds of discrimination. Pass this resolution, but stand up and make the next move.

  16. What a disgraceful mixed message this is sending to our Scouts. In essence, we’re telling them, it’s ok if you’re gay, you can be a Scout. BUT, if you’re an adult, it’s ok if we discriminate against you.

    I’m fairly certain Baden Powell would be appalled by this decision.

  17. Is there no end to the Homosexual Agenda? Start your own program instead of defiling an existing one. Being Homosexual is a choice but the argument will continue anyway. This ruling has to be all or nothing or it will not please anyone.

    • They already have a scouting organization they can join, but that isn’t enough. It will never be enough.

      • Who’s “they”? I am a Cub Scout leader and a parent and not gay, but I support inclusion for all. Am I part of the “homosexual agenda”?

      • Sadly Jacob, many that will comment here will call you a “homosexual activist” because you support inclusion for all. There are some that are quite vocal against those of us that support inclusion and label us thus.

      • I do wonder who else you on the other side would like to exclude (if you could), given the chance…sad.

    • What proof do you have that it’s a choice? And by that I mean real, scientific proof. Not a story on Fox News about a study by the FRC that says it is.

      • The majority of the human population is geared to acts with members of the opposite sex to reproduce. A change in the wiring causing acts with members of the same sex and not being able to reproduce indicates an agreement with your statement and an end to the human species.

      • Oh, please. Is this how you justify yourself? You can’t help it you were born that way?

    • So is being a Christian, a Muslim or Jew. Should we start discriminating based on religion as well?

  18. So what about the Boy Scout who is also a Venture Scout? He’s a youth in the Venture program until he turns 21, but an adult in the Boy Scout program after he turns 18. So from 18-21 he can no longer participate with the Boy Scout program in any way, but he can still be a Venture Scout. When he reaches the age of 21, he’s out completely. How absurd!!!

  19. I’m a Boy Scout, and I wouldn’t feel comfortable tenting with and around boys who find me attractive. Gay boys should start their own organization for camping if they really like it that much.

    • My son feels the same way. There is already an organization they can join – The Navigators.

      • I am an Eagle Scout. I am also gay, and knew I was gay as early as 12 years old. Somehow, I managed to keep my hands to myself during my years in Scouting. As did the other gay kids in our Troop. Shocking, I know.

      • SR121, know that the Eagle badge is the property of the young man that earned it, not the organization. you need to move on to some other organization that would love your talents, like the KKK. You’d fit in there.

      • Matt, it is never the property of the individual, it remains property of the BSA, and must be returned if they dishonor themselves or the BSA

      • SR, Carter has not committed any moral infringement. From what he has said here, he has followed BSA policy. I see no reason for him to turn anything over. You seem to be forgetting aspects of the Scout Law, however.

      • Beth, I have forgotten nothing, he can not do his duty to God, he can not be reverent, and he has committed an violation of his honor code, upon which he swore his honor. When presented his Eagle award, he was reminded that the rank did not belong to him, that it belonged to the BSA and was only entrusted to him, that if he should ever dishonor himself, or the BSA, that he was duty bound to return it to the BSA. He did break the code becoming a scout, and he is duty bound upon his honor that he pledged to return his Eagle to the BSA. It is the same with all Eagles.

      • He can be reverent and do his duty to god. He may not be doing his duty to your god, but the thing is, he has no duty to your god. He has a duty to his god.

      • God and I are on good term, SR. Thanks. It is not your place to judge my religious beliefs. One can be a reverent person and disagree with your moral values, SR.

      • Carter, you can’t do what is sin, and be on a good relationship with God. Jesus died for your sins, but you have to accept him, and repent of your sins, you can’t repent if you keep living the same sinful life. Salvation aside, you can’t be an Eagle Scout if you have dishonored the Oath and Law you have sworn yourself to. You made a promise when you accepted that Eagle badge that if you ever did anything to dishonor yourself, or the BSA, that you would return it. The honor that you swore to, is why you must return it to the BSA. You are unworthy to be counted as an Eagle since you have disgraced yourself, your uniform, and the BSA. Of this there is absolutely no question.

      • The BSA’s Declaration of Religious Principle, adopted more than 100 years ago, says in part, “The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts from the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership.” Unless you are willing to respect the religious beliefs of the Bahai, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, practitioners of Native American religions, and the more than 28 varieties of Christians who are members of Boy Scouts, you do not meet the qualifications for membership in the BSA. This Declaration was adopted almost 100 years ago. BSA is absolutely nonsectarian, and in a Scouting context (no problem on your own time, just not in a Scouting context), it is not appropriate to tell someone that he can’t be right with his God unless he agrees with your doctrine.

      • Correction: adopted almost 100 years ago, not more than. Should have proofread better.

      • SR, my church welcomes gay people and blesses our marriages. It is one of the oldest, most important Christian denominations in our nations history. We may not believe what you believe, but that is our right. You don’t get to determine whether or not another person’s belief in God is good enough or proper enough to “count” as far as Scouting is concerned. Also, you just explicitly accused me of molesting children, which is both completely untrue and a completely hateful thing to say. That sort of uncharitable, discourteous behavior is a true affront to Scouting. I am proud to have earned the rank of Eagle, even if it does mean I am tangentially associated with as poor an exemplar of the Scouting ideal as you.

      • Since you still don’t understand, SR, I will try it again. You used a term that is universally considered derogatory. When it was brought to your attention that it was a derogatory term, and that you were using it in such a way, you repeated it, many times over. It was your intent to harm with language. You are not communicating in a way that befits a Scout. We Scouts do not talk this way, and you know that is true, because you teach Scoutlike communication — you must, in order to teach the program.

        Other people don’t *make* us behave in an unScoutlike way by their difference from us. You are not forced to violate your Scout ideals by what someone else does. You can always choose to behave in a Scoutlike manner in every circumstance, and I’m sure that is what you tell your boys. We all accept a great challenge when we commit ourselves to being Scouts at all times, and we need to live up to that at all times — no circumstance changes that.

      • The Navigators? Never heard of them. And when I google it, all i get is a website for an international interdenominational christian organization.

      • Looks like you found your new home. Its for the best that you go. If choose not to want to mold your character to fit the BSA Oath and Law then you should leave rather than expect the BSA to lower the bar for you, me or anyone. There’s no sense of achievement if someone just gives you everything you want. Those who want to change the BSA to include them in the membership are essentially very selcish in trying to take something away from everyone else who accept the BSA for what it is and still strive to mold themselves to those ideals. good luck in the navigators. I’ve never heard of them; maybe there’s a reason for that?

    • Andrew, as a Scoutmaster I would never ask one of my Scouts to tent with someone they aren’t comfortable with. That said, I wouldn’t go so far as to throw them out of the troop.

    • So don’t share a tent with a gay boy. You should not ever be required to share a tent with anyone else that makes you uncomfortable. Just because a boy is gay, however, doesn’t mean he finds you attractive. In all reality, it is much more likely for a gay boy to be a victim of bullying or assault at the hands of a straight boy than the other way around. What are you afraid of?

      My son is a boy scout also, and he doesn’t think its right to discriminate against other kids or adults. We’ve had this conversation.

      • Beth, I have had the same discussion with my sons. They just have to speak with the Scoutmaster before a camp out to say who they would prefer not to tent with.

      • Fear being assaulted sexually by a homosexual youth. less likely to be assaulted by a homosexual adult whose learned restraint to zome degree. when I was in scouts I knew a 15 year old who molested a 11 year old.; the 15 year old was a homosexual, th 11 year old wasn’t and the 15 year old deceived the 11 year old and tricked him into performing acts which were deceptively wrongful. It happens and when it happens to your son you can flush all tje stats down the toilet because for your son it was 100% if the time and you’ll all never forget it. Everyone else will be gone and have moved on and uour son will live with the scars of molestation for the rest of their lives. Parents should be fearful and scoutmasters will be caught up in the middle of it all.

      • God said “man should not lay with a man as with a woman” (Leviticus) and that they will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corithians). THAT’S IT! There is no other mention of homosexuality in the Bible (which actually is debatable about those two verses, but let’s stick to what YOU think you know). It also says that the greedy, the drunkard, the SLANDERER (that’s you), the adulterer (which includes those who divorce) will not inherit the kingdom of God. Are the greedy deviants? Do you treat the drunkard the way you treat homosexuals? Because in the Bible THEY ARE ALL denied the kingdom of God. NOWHERE does it say that homosexuals are perverts or criminals. Just that the act is “detestable” and they should be “put to death”, as is being greedy, being an adulterer, being a drunkard. Being and adulterer and being a drunk are covered MORE often than being a homosexual in the entire Bible. Who else does the Bible say should be put to death? Adulterers (which include those who have been divorced and remarry or those who marry a divorced person), those who work on Sunday, for being a disobedient son, not being a virgin (females only of course). Yet you only target homosexuals in this way.

        Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. (Matthew 22:37-40)

        For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)

        And who is your neighbor? Jesus tells us that, too!

        Jesus replied and said, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead. “And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. “But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion, and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him. “On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.’ “Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers’ hands?” And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.” (Luke 10:30-37)

        Did the Samaritan stop and ask the beaten man if he was an adulterer, a homosexual, a murderer? No he did not. He helped him, showed him kindness and love. I should not know this better than you…

      • You are funny to me jcal. its typical for a left winged liberal to try to define me in a way that suits their needs but its a definition based on lies; yours. I don’t think I’ll consider your definitions and teachings of the Bible any differently as you also attempt to define God to also suit your needs; selfish needs. There is a newer part to the Bible you might want to read and consider; a whole new part for you to try to change and define to also suit your needs. But that’s the part that matter most my neighbor; its the part that promises salvation and eternal life to you and me if we choose to believe in Him. But its also inclusive of freedom; something this country was inspired and built on. I’m really not sure why your in this blog? Are you even a member of the BSA ir are you just an aggressive militant homosexual activist? I won’t define you but if you’d like to define yourself I’d be curious to know the base of your anger. By the way, if every written book of the Bible was burned on earth it wouldn’t change the fact that its the book if God’ s only true word to us and its written on the hearts of all Godly men. Truths never change. Homosexual behavior will be an abomination to God’s creation on this modern day, on April 22nd 3013 just as it was in April 22nd 1013 and April 22nd 0013.. Just like salvation will never change either jcal. Live free and let others live free too. You can’t control everything in your world; I guess your finding that out neighbor..

      • Wallace, as I’ve mentioned, specifically to you several times, MY SONS ARE BOY SCOUTS. That would be why it matters to me, why I’m here? Reading comprehension, Pharisee, get thee some.

      • I have no idea what your talking about jcal. I’m glad your boys are in the BSA though and I hope they all earn the Eagle Rank. I am shocked hearing your perspective regarding permitting homosexual males into the membership of the BSA. I will never agree with your opinions.. You have no idea what kinds of problems your struggling so hard to bring into the BSA. Having 5 sons in the BSA I woul think you would have more respect for the BSA and all they’ve done for your boys.

      • And by the way, Pharisee, don’t call me a liberal. I’m a Constitutionalist American. Something neither the democrat nor republican party represent.

  20. If this passes, we are out. Glad I haven’t paid Philmont in full yet! We will donate the money to another organization with good moral standing. Gay scouts should join the Navigators, they are welcome there.

      • Clearly your son will never embrace all the tenants of the Scout Oath and Law. Maybe it’s better for you to leave.

      • Glad to see others holding tight to their moral compass and the scout oath and law. To bad the BSA EC is being swayed by money.

      • Did I disgust you when I was building shelving for a battered women’s shelter to earn my Eagle Scout rank? When I taught kids how to swim at summer camp? When I helped organize Christmas carols at local nursing homes? When I joined my fellow OA members (some of whom are also gay) rebuilding the swimming dock at the local Scout camp?

      • Soon to be, if you can’t follow the Scout Law (you know, Courteous, Kind, etc.), perhaps it would be better if it were sooner rather than later… What gives you the right to judge Carter’s project? Obviously, it met with the approval of his Eagle board!

      • Building shelving to creat a storage room for the women’s shelter was only part of my project.

      • Stating the truth does not make me a bigot. Homosexuals practice perversion. We will not compromise our beliefs to coddle the mentally ill. If the policy is adopted we will leave and take our money elsewhere.

      • Definition of BIGOT: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

    • Hey Star Scout Mom, I too may quit if it passes,…. because it doesn’t go far enough to end the discrimination..
      -Lou (Eagle & Eagle Dad)

    • Stick to your guns, Star Scout Mom! It’s a sign of our times that some people think that destroying time-honored institutions is more important than practicing what they preach; to wit: tolerance. They say we don’t tolerate them but in fact the opposite is true; we don’t seek to destroy their associations as they continually seek to destroy ours. And, sadly, there will always internal saboteurs like “beardozer” who choose to ignore or subvert inconvenient parts of the Oath and Law to enable the attackers. Don’t worry, if the vote goes the wrong way, you’ll have plenty of company heading for the exits.

  21. I am incredibly disappointed in the BSA.

    Liberal groups (like my Chartered Org and our Council) will probably vote against it because it still does not allow Gay Eagle Scouts to participate as leaders, and it still tells some children that their parents are not welcome.

    Conservative groups will probably vote against it because it does not allow their Chartered Org to set policies that are consistent with their religious beliefs.

    In the end, this may fail catastrophically, but leave the BSA able to say “We tried, but no one wanted change.”

    • Let me add … Please Read the Executive Summary! It’s important, and it explains a lot of the details. It explains how the BSA got to this proposal, and why.

  22. Brian, it seems that the way this worded in the last paragraph, it’s already been approved and adopted, effective Jan. 1.

  23. If we leave the values of scouting, then scouting should fail! Hopefully funding will dry up if BSA approves this, and another organization with the values of Scouting will emerge. Hopefully if the BSA approves this that they will cease to exist in short order.

    • Actually, funding is likely to go up…the decrease in funding is one of the things driving this change. I certainly hope that the BSA does the right thing and moves forward with this, as imperfect as it is….

      • Hopefully the majority of Americans will be disgusted with the addition of sexual perverts, and will defund the organization as a protest to the decline of morality.

      • Jacob, just because you make up a fact trying to say most Americans this or that certainly does not make it to be so!

      • Jacob is correct, the studies have shown recently that the American public are more inclusive, and accepting of gays and lesbians. The percentage of Americans that have a positive opinion of homosexuality is greater than the negative, and the spread between the two is widening every day. We, as a country, are evolving to a point of enlightenment.

      • I shouldn’t have read Matt’s reply after dinner….making me sick. Just because the majority, and I question the statistic, approves doesn’t make it right. Homosexuality is wrong period!

      • The majority of Americans are now in favor of gay marriage… a change which has come about in the last 3 years. If they think gay people should be allowed to have equal civil rights, why wouldn’t they think gay people should be allowed to be boy scouts?

    • Funding may increase but membership will be cut in half if not more. It won’t be feasible to have all those paid leaders, and property, with such a mass exodus.

      • That’s right Joe. The belief that the majority of the population approves of the homosexual agenda is nothing but mainstream media hype.

  24. I see this policy change as movement forward, surely a compromise but movement forward nonetheless. Hopefullly, this resolution will pass and we can all get back to focusing on the business of providing a quality character development program to our nation’s youth.

    • Sorry, this is a step backward. Compromising your values because of money isn’t what makes leaders or upstanding youth. We tell our children that if their friends are going to step off a cliff, not to follow them because they are their friends.

      This does not follow moral leadership.

  25. At what point in a boy’s life does he know he is gay? I have known college age boys who have struggled with the question. Who determines his status? This resolution goes against all of the scouting principals since scouting was founded. What would Baden Powell think of this?

    • At the point in time that he gives up being morally straight, and accepts a lie from the devil, stating that perversion is ok. There are no born perverts, they make that decision.

      • There’s also never been a person born into a religion. That has to be taught. Should be start discriminating based on religion as well?

      • Really? Wow the concept that people know some version of right and wrong, and the reinforcement by family and society, is part of the basis of religion. We teach children, and reinforce sharing, and caring for others, do not steal, do not kill, do not lie…

        So in fact, your statement is incorrect. Survey says, Try again.

    • For most gay kids, the first recognition occurs during puberty. Many struggle for years to come to terms with their orientation. I realized it when I was 12, didn’t outwardly acknowledge it until I was 24. That’s later than usual.

      • Neither. Do you really think you’re setting a proper example for Scouts by insulting and denigrating my parents?

      • Your statements are disgusting. I’m glad you are “soon to be a former scouter”. I know many gay people from loving families. I’d rather have gay leaders who care about the kids than have someone like you indoctrinating our sons into hatred and bigotry.

      • Several people have advanced the claim that there is no scientific support for the idea that sexual orientation is inborn. I do not claim any personal expertise at all. But the standard academic sources seem to agree that much of the source of orientation is biological.

        Dr. David Myers is a professor of Psychology at the Reformed Church in America’s Hope College, New Holland, MI. His basic text, Psychology, is widely used at Christian colleges and other schools nationwide. In that text, Myers assembled the following references:

        M. D. Storms, 1983, established that homosexuality is not the result of a domineering mother, an ineffectual father, a hostile father, rejection of the other gender, levels of sex hormones, molestation or sexual victimization. Bell & Hammersmith had already determined in 1981 (“Sexual Preference: Its Development in Men and Women”) that parental relationships, childhood sexual experiences, dating experiences, and peer relationships were not the reasons. Ludwig, 1995 (“The Price of Greatness”), did find that homosexuality was about 10 times more likely among men who were poets, fiction writers, artists, or musicians than in the general population.

        Three studies have determined that brothers born later in the family are progressively more likely to be gay than the older brothers: Blanchard, 1997 (“Birth order and sibling sex ratio in homosexual and heterosexual males and females,” Annual Review of Sex Research) and 2008 (“Review and history of handedness, birth order, and homosexuality in men,” Laterality), and Bogaert, 2003 (“Biological versus nonbiological older brothers and men’s sexual orientation,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences). This only holds when the brothers are biological, not adopted. This effect does not appear in women.

        Bagemihl, 1999 (Biological Exuberance), identified several hundred species of animals in which same-sex relations appear. Between 6% and 10% of rams on ranches display same-sex attraction, according to Perkins & Fitzgerald, 1997 (“Sexual orientation in domestic rams: Some biological and social correlates,” in Ellis and Eberts, Sexual Orientation).

        A blind study of brains of homosexual and heterosexual people (blind meaning that the researcher did not know which brains were from which categories of people) found a cluster of cells in the hypothalamus that is reliably larger in gay men than in other men or in women (LeVay, 1991, “A difference in hypothalamic structure between heterosexual and homosexual men,” Science). Savic & Lindstrom, 2008 (“PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences), also established that in lesbian women and heterosexual men reliably have right brain hemispheres that are larger than left, while gay men and heterosexual women reliably have more balanced brain hemispheres. Rahman and Wilson, 2003 (“Born Gay?” Personality and Individual Differences), established that brain differences develop very early in life.

        Twin studies are the gold standard for establishing heritability (genetic factors) of our characteristics. Langstrom, 2008 (“Genetic and environmental effects on same-sex sexual behavior,” Archives of Sexual Behavior), established that identical twins (those whose genetic material is essentially identical) share the same orientation more often than fraternal twins (who have had as much common life experience as identical twins, but only as much genetic similarity as any siblings). There are measurable differences between homosexual men and heterosexual men, as populations, in spatial abilities, fingerprint ridge counts, auditory system development, handedness, relative finger length, and body size. A study of 200,000 people worldwide found the same kinds of differences between the , two populations world-wide (Lippa, two studies reported in Archives of Sexual Behavior in 2007, and another in 2008).

        This Christian professor at this rather conservative Christian college concludes, “Regardless of the process, the consistency of brain, genetic, and prenatal findings has swung the pendulum toward a biological explanation of sexual orientation.”

  26. Far all of you supporting this decision with regards to the adult leaders, take this test. Replace the word “gay” with “Black, Mexican or Jew”

    • This is a specious argument. Can you how me where in the bible it states that being a Black, Mexican, or Jew is a problem?

      • Again, you’re making the mistake of associating the Christian bible with Scouting. The BSA is NOT an exclusively Christian organization.

      • Wow. Here you are wrong, and wrong LOUD. I’m Jewish, and take my values from the Torah, not from popular culture or the media.

        The BSA is most certainly not an exclusively Christian organization — they bend backwards to accommodate our needs, and, in turn, we wholeheartedly endorse all the points of the Scout Law. The BSA is an organization that demands from it’s members a life lived in awe of the creator. Our only documentary evidence of what that creator wants is pretty clear on homosexuality. I will grant that you may not accept the Bible as documentary evidence of the desires of the great and holy, but I’m involved in the BSA because they do.

        I would ask you to refrain from telling me what or who I’m associating with. In the meantime, I’m logging off for the Sabbath.

    • Wow! Comparing apples to oranges. Where does “Black, Mexican or Jew” fit into being MORALLY STRAIGHT?

      Where does this fit into the very basics of life in reproduction offspring and the basic tenets of a species survival? Surely being “Black, Mexican or Jew” allows that measure.

      • “Morally straight” does not refer to sexuality. You might want to read the BSA literature.

      • Morals don’t come from a BSA manual! The fact you have to cite this means you don’t have or understand this.

      • Beardozer, it’s you who need to pull back out his old handbook. The handbook is very very clear, on the 12 points of the Scout Law, on A Scout is Clean, it talks about even reading material, our thinking, it speaks of pornography, as well as physically clean. On Morally Straight on the Scout Oath, it talks about much of the same, it goes on to tell us about sex being part of marriage, and for scouts to be morally straight that they must wait for marriage for sex. There certainly can’t be marriage, nor procreation among perverts.

      • SR121, there certainly CAN be marriage between gay people. In areas where gay people cannot be married, they can still have committed relationships, which can be likened to marriage. How ironic that people tell gay people they can’t have sex because they aren’t married, and then to say that they can’t get married. Gay people CAN have families.

    • serioulsy , lol ,,did u forget that being homosexual is a CHIOCE , your skin color is not .seems u people will stop at nothing to push your agenda ,

      • Your in denial. Based on the totality of your emails, “u people” means those wishing to allow something the group as a whole does not accept, but yet you are not willing to join a group designed to support your views and perspectives.

      • It is not a choice. I certainly never chose to be gay. Unlike you, I know many gay people.

      • That’s what the Left continually teaches. If you tell that to yourself enough times it must be true. You did choose it but you are in denial. There is a way out but you must seek it.

      • God made me that way for the purpose of pro-creation of the Species to join in life-long marriage with a female of the same Species and raise children to love all people but to be set apart as a moral and ethical example to preserve and continue a moral and ethical society.

        I know homosexuals believe they were created that way in the womb. What do they think their purpose is based on the statement above? All people are worthy and have a place in moral and ethical society with justice for all The “place” as in raising up and training children is where we disagree.

      • So the only person God has in creating any person is for pro-creation? I don’t think that’s the case. Perhaps he has another purpose in mind when he creates homosexuals. I’m sure we can’t know here on this earth.

      • Beth, I think I asked the question as to where homosexuals think they fit into God’s plan. I don’t know. Maybe one day I’ll get to ask him. Probably to serve God through his Word.

    • How about we replace the word ‘gay’ with homosexual and call it as it really is.

      • I agree with STBFS. Gay is homosexual only in the Urban dictionary sense. Homosexuals have co-opted the word all the way now to Merriam-Websters now. Up until the 60’s counter-culture it meant happy. I’m sure they are unhappy homosexuals so to describe them all as “gay” in the historic meaning is certainly not descriptive of all homosexuals and homosexuality if the behavior.. .

      • Come on, you really want to make an argument of that? I’ve been through these fine-tuning of definitions to try to make the downplay the primary use of a word throughout history to mean the urban dictionary, progressive definition more palatable.

        SInce Merriam Webster has been quoted:

        Number 1 definition of gay.
        1a : happily excited : merry
        b : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits

        You can string it out if you want to, but the #1 definition works for me and most folks. Sure, folks assign traditional words to many things. One weakness of English speaking people and the English language itself.

      • I didn’t argue the point, I just fine tuned it. YOU are the one who wants to go back to it’s “original” definition..I was just pointing out that what you think is its “original” definition is wrong.

        If you want to talk linguistic origins, let’s get it right. It was first used to mean homosexual in 1920..in the 1300s it meant “beautiful”…from the 1400 until until the 1800s then it meant “happy”…in the 1800s it meant immorality (female) and “those addicted to social pleasures” (males), though it’s a bit more complicated than that…

        See, one of my hobbies is origins. I like to know where EVERYTHING started. When I was hearing I would only listen to songs sung by their original artists. So, if you want to go back to it’s “original” meaning, then it would go back to meaning “beautiful” as that is it’s origin. I’m not trying to make anything more palatable. I’m just really particular in this area. It extends to everything, as you should have noticed when I brought up religion in relation to cave paintings…

      • I noticed that. A popular saying is “Words mean things” but clear universal, right in every instance and appropriate for every use definitions are elusive. Just look at the definition of “Truth” and “moral.”

        This is my favorite quote on that issue.

        “I think the original concept behind the word ‘Gay” has been irretrievably lost and is something we need back, but cannot ever reclaim.”

        I prefer in daily use Definition #1. You can use anyone you like and I will still prefer definition #1 as being the most descriptive for common usage. Doesn’t help your argument to parse words anyway. You seem to be a “fair” person that is willing to listen to both sides, not pale with blond hair.

      • Fairness is kind of part of my belief system, though I don’t always achieve it. I’m far too argumentive and volatile, and yet extremely logical minded. It can make conversation with me difficult, as you can attest. But I strive for it (the fairness, not the difficulty).

        Words make it more difficult, especially these days. People use words that do not mean what they think they mean and it becomes a common usage and some words can actually send me into a state of complete stupification. I do not hold well with PC terminology and the word “privilege” used by many people will make me turn my back on people and dismiss them and anything they have to say.

        BTW, I’m a tan redhead..probably where the volatile and argumentive came from…Irish/American Indian roots 😉

  27. I’ve been dreading the release of this, and I’m not nearly as upset as I could be. This is a difficult situation for all. From my perspective (Trust me, as my nick name should clue you), I’m not Christian, but my scouts and I hold to the Bible in every way we can. Thus the issue: I don’t want to discriminate against gays, but I also don’t want someone being held up as a role model who is unfit to be such. I would not want a gay rabbi, I would not want a gay scoutmaster.

    The issue of what to do with a gay scout who wants to be an adult leader is something that we’re all going to have to wrestle with.

  28. So basically we’re telling people that it’s OK for the youth, but not the adults? This is a whole new form of bullying, BSA. You’re saying it’s OK to be a part of the program until you’re an adult, then we’ll cast you off. What kind of message is this? Shame on the BSA for continuing this type of exclusion.

    • So now it’s discrimination AND Bullying? Really?

      Wow, how is that bullying anyone? I don’t see the BSA going out and attacking the LGBT community.

      I see the LGBT community trying to bully the BSA to get their way and make the BSA accept their rules.

      • Social bullying, sometimes referred to as relational bullying, involves hurting someone’s reputation or relationships. Social bullying includes:

        Leaving someone out on purpose
        Telling other children not to be friends with someone
        Spreading rumors about someone
        Embarrassing someone in public

  29. I would like to thank the BSA for being COWARDS. As a scout in my youth and a Scout Leader today with two sons in the program, I am disappointed that I will need to tell them that the organization they love still promotes discrimination based on sexual orientation. At six and twelve they already know that discrimination is wrong. Why can’t the BSA leadership show courage and honor and announce definitively that bigotry and discrimination will have no place in their program? To allow gay youth to join while still clinging to the notion that gay adults are somehow unworthy is the height of hypocrisy. I’m also stunned that the BSA is attempting to slip this announcement into the news stream when no one else would be looking due to the tragic events in Boston. Well BSA, if you think you had a fight on your hands, just wait to see what comes next.

    • Michael: Why do you believe that discrimination is a bad thing? Each of us do so everyday. Even God discriminated against satan. Because I must be clear, I am not comparing homosexuals to satan so please no accusations. Not every person, group or organization must be all inclusive to be valid. Churches discriminate against athiests and I am sure athiests do not hand around with religious fanatics. Because the organization was started with certain religious principles in mind, the loosening of morals in our society should not cause the changing of the BSA. So by teaching your children that discrimination is wrong, you are not giving them tools to make right decisions.

      • by teaching his children to think for themselves and allow their beliefs to not be dictated by religion he is absolutely giving them the tools and environment to make the right decisions.

      • Joe, my children are taught to judge others on their actions, not their race, religion, gender, or sexual preference. They are taught that as Americans, they should support equality for all people. My children are blessed to have a wide circle of friends from all races and religions. We have friends and family members who are gay and others are straight. They don’t care that they are gay or straight. They care that they are friends. We are Catholic, but have friends who are Muslim, Jewish, agnostic, or atheists. It’s a non issue. Do we ever debate about issues? Sure. But my children understand that people can disagree without it leading to discrimination or turning our back on others. My children are taught to respect others. So, if this constitutes my “not giving them the tools to make the right decisions”, I’m sorry you feel that way. I intend to raise loving respectful children who embrace their fellow man as opposed to turning their back on them.

    • Michael,
      How about, “Do not change a thing?”. Are closet homosexuals leaving now or in the past because of the current policy? Will they leave if the policy changes? Will you leave? Why try and destroy BSA if they do not do what YOU want? If like homosexual association, then create a youth group to compete with BSA.

      These are the problems created when time tested morals by every major religion for thousands of years are fluid to suit someones new and recent set of standards.

      • many are leaving because bsa is known for its discriminatory and hateful policies. even if these policies dont affect you directly you likely have friends or family members who happen to be gay. and certainly you really need to show the support for them and not harmful policies.

      • Dewey Said: “many are leaving because bsa is known for its discriminatory and hateful policies. even if these policies dont affect you directly you likely have friends or family members who happen to be gay. and certainly you really need to show the support for them and not harmful policies.”

        ===========

        IMO you are projecting your own personal hate and bigotry. I find your argument not only to be hate filled but immature. It is the type of argument I expect a teenager to make when they scream at their parents, “I hate you, you don’t understand” when their parents are standing firm and have far better understanding than their child.

        Because you drop the words hate and bigotry so easily it is clear that you have no argument and only emotion. You are of the immature and mistaken belief that if some one holds an opposing view to yours then it can only be motivated by hate.

        How sad is that?

      • The time tested morals of every major religion have changed over the years. We no longer burn witches, thank God. Change is not a bad thing if it leads to the equality of all people and the elevation of mankind into a more tolerant and peaceful world.

      • All very pretty, Michael, but you still have not explained why a successful, time-honored organization should abandon its core beliefs to accommodate your personal foible? Why not create your own organization with your “enlightened” and “evolved” set of values and let the people decide which to join? Why cast out all those who agree with the principles upon which the BSA was founded rather than show some tolerance for their beliefs and opinions? Why should yours out weigh theirs?

      • Michael said: “The time tested morals of every major religion have changed over the years. We no longer burn witches, thank God. Change is not a bad thing if it leads to the equality of all people and the elevation of mankind into a more tolerant and peaceful world.”

        ==========

        Consider this: Conformity is doing what everybody else is doing regardless of what is right.

        Morality is doing what is right regardless of what everybody else is doing

        Tolerance is a virtue, but like all virtues when taken to extremes and exaggerated become vices

        “We need to be careful of the tolerance trend, so that we do not get swallowed up in it, The permissiveness afforded by the weakening of the laws of the land to tolerate and legalize immorality does not reduce the serious spiritual consequence that is the result from a violation of God’s law of Chastity.” Boyd K Packer

    • So the discussion was all a scam, then. Shame on National. As for the survey, only one member of our family received it. All who would have given negative input did not.

      Make sure your Council knows your feelings. I think the decision was made a long time ago, and doubt it will do any good, but it’s time to inundate them with phone calls.

      The National leadership needs to step down — they obviously do NOT uphold the Scout values of honesty, loyalty, trustworthy, and reverent. Shame, shame, shame on them.

      • well yes most of the bsa policy changes are a complete sham and seem to be decided entirely in texas without really considering the true purpose of scouting and that its intended to be a outdoor youth program for all boys. telling council how you feel sadly isnt the most useful as they dont even have to listen and its the local council/cor’s that actually have the power not the either youth of adult members.

    • Did anyone else notice that “THE LARGEST” CO’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints seems to have NOT been counted in this analysis… “The Chartered Organization Study Group was charged with listening to the voice of the national-level leadership in the BSA’s major chartered organizations. The BA contacted 64 religious chartered organizations and 54 nonreligious chartered organizations. The BA’s largest chartered organization, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is not included in these totals”

      It seems that if you want to make a decision shouldn’t you consider the opinion of your LARGEST member organization?

      • In my opinion, I don’t believe the LDS Church will change there moral policy if the National Council changes. And I don’t believe the Catholic Church will change either. Religions that have a strong moral code don’t bend to every fad. But the BSA isn’t a religion, but Duty to God is an important part of the Scout Oath. The BSA policy has changed ( But the National Council has to approve the new policy ),if they don’t change any more in the next 3-5 years the BSA might survive.

      • I believe that BSA will die if the DO change the policy. It must stay the way it is or the organization will die. Another alternative would be to split in 2. Let the Gays have their organization and those with morals keep the current BSA.

      • as the bsa is primarily controlled by the lds their opinions are well known. what is actually important is the scouts and scouters not the charter orgs.

    • Leave the BSA alone. Gays are welcome at other organizations. Just let them join those organizations. The BSA organization should stand up for morality and what is right. BSA is NOT hypocritical now but they will be if this policy is changed.

    • Michael, since discrimination is wrong. Should BSA also lift the ban on excluding girls in cubs and boy scouts because that is discrimination? Should BSA also lift he require for a belief in God? Because that too is discrimination. What do your boys say about public and private institutions that discriminate against the BSA?

  30. Being a good Leader means having to make hard decisions that you know may not be popular but know its the right thing to do. This proposal is nothing but a half hearted attempt to please everyone but what it really shows is that the national committee are just cowards.

    • yes this decision is nothing more than a half hearted attempt to please a few and certainly not an attempt to actually have equality. as written it will continue to discriminate based on sexuality and continues the incorrect belief that homosexual behavior makes one not the type of leader capable of helping develop new leaders. i applaud not national which has taken the cowards way out on this decision but to the councils and units that have actually adopted a nondiscrimination pledge of their own.

  31. I am a Trangender Eagle Scout, Yet I am forbidden to participate in the B.S.A. anymore for the fact i am Transgender, and date both Males and females. I wonder if my local Girl Scout Troup needs some more Adults. At least the Girl Scouts welcome All.

    • Why not give it a try? (I’m betting the parents won’t be thrilled.) Or why not volunteer your time to Spiral Scouts? They are growing, they are welcoming of all people with open arms, and they’ll surely appreciate your help.

      • Absolutely, Dewey. And they need volunteers, and additional members. Those who disagree with the stated tenets of BSA should join. I know that Sprial Scouts is ready for BSA to uphold its policy and hopes to gain members from that decision. I think that’s great. People should not be hypocritical — they should join organizations with whose core values they agree. You can find a circle here: http://www.spiralscouts.org/CircleLocator, or start your own. They’ll help you.. And they are wholly inclusive, wholly.

      • Good for them. Different strokes for different folks. Tell you what: I won’t demand Spirals or Navigators give up their principles if you stop demanding the Boy Scouts give up theirs. That’s the way the Freedom to Associate works, see?

    • You should certainly look into it and join them. I’m a heterosexual Eagle Scout and will be proud to fill the vacuum left by your departure and teach all the scouts what morally straight means, what biblical principles are, what loyalty and a promise to do my duty to God and My Country actually means. I didn’t lie when I stood proudly and accepted my Eagle Rank; did U?

      • Wallace, teaching scouts what biblical principles are would be against the BSA Declaration of Religious Principles. It would be improper to teach the boys about one holy book over another. Scouts are to learn about religion from their family and their church not their Boy Scout Leader.

      • Do you understand that I have a Constitutional Right to practice my faith; my Christian Religion. Do you understand that men and women have sacrificed tremendously for my Cinstitutional Rights. Do you understand that the BSA or you will not take my rights away from me. I teach scouts to know their right as Free Americans. Always someone whose going to try to steal them away like you.. Understand that I don’t check my faith in at the door when I attend our scout meetings, outings, etc. If that bothers or scares you then be bothered and scared. Scouting in the BSA is run by a vast majority of Christians. I won’t be bullied by aggressive homosexual activists who are trying to destroy the BSA with their homosexual agenda. I won’t be leaving either because I have too much fight in me; my American heritage. If confused youth are permitted to join the BSA I may be one who can minister to them and help them along their journey. Will show them the love of a true Christian; me. If their seeking their salvation then I’ll help them find it; I know where salvation is found.

      • Wallace,
        I am not taking away your rights. Just reminding you of the BSA Declaration of Religious Principles that state the job of teaching the Scouts about biblical principles lies with the parents or their faith leader not their Scout leader.

      • Wallace, you’re probably the type who feels that the bible should be taught in school, forcing your religious thinking on those younger than you, and less likely to form their own critical thinking. I suggest you take your book and go to Sunday services and stop worrying about preaching and proselytizing your beliefs to the scouts you “lead”.

        Your constitutional rights only apply to you. You are free to practice your religion. Not to force it on others.

      • If your fearful of biblical principles being taught through the example I am to the boys I lead in our troop then fear me. The BSA is an excellent place for me to share my Christian Faith. I have neve had a problem with any of it so far. I know my knowing my freedoms irritates many if you who want to control the rights of Christians but give it up or live a tormented life because you won’t cintrol me. I’ve been involved in scouting for decades and plan to be involved for decades to come. Some can fear that and some will appreciate that. I’ve only ever felt appreciated by the units I’ve served.

  32. The BSA seems to fall under condemnation no matter what policy changes they present or dismiss; what an extraordinarily divisive issue! All I wish to add is that the majority of comments here are very “all-or-nothing” in nature; everybody’s inner activist seems to be sounding off. Certainly a policy change will have some impact, but probably less than the rhetoric would suggest. Politics and Religion divide us. The most import message of Scouting is contained in the Scout Law and Oath; all parties concerned can unite around those principles. If we can’t unify through Scouting, then what’s the point being involved?

    • Shaman, you’re missing the point — there is no grey here. Either you consider the practic of homosexuality to be alternative or you consider it to be wrong. People who consider it to be wrong cannot continue to be members of an organization whose core treats it as just an alternative.

      • KS is right. Black and white do still exist even though the media, Hollywood, college campuses, focused activists, etc. have been constantly working on us trying to incrementally “normalize” homosexuality. Almost every show on regular TV, not including cable, has “normal” homosexual couples kissing, or they are in bed together, or they are adopting and raising children. If anyone has a problem with them or doesn’t agree with their lifestyle, then that person is portrayed as being insensitive and mean-spirited and who would want a label like that (brainwashing). Because of the intensity that homosexuality is being pushed, you would think that 25% or more of Americans are homosexuals and that is not the case.
        I will not stand with an organization that no longer shares my values or its own and I will not enroll my son in a program that condones and embraces homosexuality as a lifestyle.

    • That is just the point, Shaman. In May the BSA will be voting on whether or not to abandon the Scout Law and Oath. If they approve the proposed policy change, they will be saying that the Oath and Law are no longer applicable to Scouting and that does not sit well with many scouts and scouters. It really is binary; you either believe and uphold the Scout Law and Oath or you think they are out-dated and that the bar must be lowered.

  33. As an Eagle Scout who owes who I am today to the Scouting, I would rather have seen Scouting disbanded than to have them cave in to the pop culture. Scouting has always gone against what was popular to do what was right. With BSA giving on this issue, they have shown they can be bullied into caving on other issues. It won’t be long until God is removed from what is left of Scouting and then Boy will be removed and then what will be left: what Girls Scouts is today — cookie sellers, and that’s all.

    • Gil, I was right there with you until the end. If it wasn’t broke, don’t change it.

      Girl Scouts are a WHOLE lot more than just cookie sellers. Check into the requirements for the GIRL SCOUT GOLD AWARD. The hours & achievements required to earn this award, has to be achieved by the GIRL, herself. True, she can get others to help her—but the 50+ hours is hers and hers alone. Girls do service projects, canoeing, backpacking, camping, rappelling, etc.

      I do feel it is STUPID on BSA to allow the youth and not the leaders. Another LIBERAL bow down! In the past, we have tried to encourage 18 yr old youth to become leaders–with this proposal that is out. BSA should just throw out Youth Protection training, too!

    • As an Eagle Scout is an atheist and supporter of gay rights (though not gay myself), I disagree. In a changing world, the BSA (along with other organizations, including our own government) are going to have to make some changes. We’re beginning to enter a sort of transition point in our society where the baby boomers are being moved out by the next generation (mind that this process still has a long way to go). Different cohorts represent different ideas and values. It’s quite likely that many ideals that you hold would not be held by your parents (just generalizing here). Scouting means so much to me. It made me who I am today more than anything else. I learned so much about being a moral (though not necessarily religious) person, being a cohesive unit of society, and about living life in general. I know that without scouting in my life, I would not be attending college right now.I would not have a good crowd of friends (most of whom were in Scouting with me). Scouting, to me, and many others,was not about god, but enjoying the company of our friends (for a lot of us, it was the only place we could fit in), learning how to be successful, and giving back to the community.

      • Jared: Why? Should we change for change sake? Why must the BSA ‘s beliefs become watered down because the world around us is in decline morally? This is the same argument being made to the catholic church. Specifically, that the church must get into the 20th century and be more tolerant. But can anyone say for certain that God would agree, especially since the Bible is clear. What this change does is change the Boy Scouts into something “Not the Boy Scouts”. I didn’t sign up for this.

      • Joe, you are right about one thing. The Bible does make it clear. It may say something about homosexuals, but it says 1000 fold more about being a just person and treating others like actual human beings whom are equal to yourself. If there is any decline morally, I would say it is with the people inside the church. Those inside the christian religion have all but forgotten exactly what it means to be a christian. To treat others kindly. The Bible isn’t even meant to be taken literally. Almost half the new testament is parables which are stories to compel one to think about life, and the others around him or herself. As far as what the bible says, outside of the old testament, its hardly about worshiping a God, and more about living your life with kindness and decency towards others. Honestly, I would say, if i believed in God, he would probably be very disappointed in what people say in his name. A book written by man should not be used to interpret the wants of your creator. I think the compromise here is, well, the best they can do. Discrimination is wrong on all levels and I’m sure your God would agree with me completely. Oh, and for the record, before someone says anything about it, I was raised a Christian, I have read the entire Bible, and I’m an Eagle Scout.

      • The Boy Scouts are a secular organization and not a Christian organization. There are troops sponsored by non religious groups as well. Though I’m a Christian we must take into consideration the bigger picture of religion regarding homosexuality. Not all Christian faiths ostracize gays. Regardless, my personal opinion is that this is a step in the right direction. All youth should be allowed to join. The chartering units, as they always have, should be the deciding authority for adults.

      • William: You couldn’t be more wrong. The Bible doesn’t say be a good and just person and everything is OK. And I guess it is your interpretation that the Bible isn’t meant to be taken literally. To be Christian means to spread the Word of God. All of it. Not just the parts you like and agree with. Also, the Bible was written by men under the inspiration of God. Thus it must be perfect. And thus homosexuality to Christians is an abomination. I didn’t make this up. But as Christians we love the sinner & hate the sin. And we are therefore perfectly OK with discriminating against those that go against our beliefs. Unfortunately you are one of the convenient believers. Love you but can’t abide by your new religion.

      • Jared, you want the benefits of Scouting without adhering to its principles. Were you an atheist while in Scouting? If so, you should not have passed your Boards of Reveiw. The principles of BSA have withstood the test of time. Everyone who is currently involved with Scouting agreed to adhere to those principles. To degrade them now is to destroy Scouting. PS Outside of LA, NY, many media sources, and higher instutites of learning, the “real world” is quite different. It’s not about age — it’s about indoctrination. That wears off when people begin to think for themselves — usually after they have a child.

      • the principles of bsa are ever changing. the fact that requirements, rules and all their documents seem to change several times a year every single year should make that clear. also just because we joined scouting doesnt mean we actually agreed to or understood the bsa’s principles. have you actually read the complete rules and regulations as well as every other document that prescribes how you must act and think. there are several thousand pages of that stuff. i joined scouting because i loved the outdoors. hiking, camping, canoeing – thats why people around here join scouting. not because they want to go do more church stuff or do indoor classroom based merit badges.

      • The whole mention of homosexuality wasn’t a part of Scouting’s official declarations of purpose until the 1990s (1980s?). That means the organisation stood for 70-plus years without worrying about it. It wasn’t until the rise of the Moral Majority and its ilk that this became an issue that Scouting felt the need to address.

        If the organization could live without mention of homosexuality once, it can again also.

      • I believe it was more the rise of radical homosexual activism that cause the 90’s policy. People BSA did not want kept knocking on the door to be let in until BSA had to scream “You’re not welcome here. Please leave.”

      • Baby boomers will be the power vote for many years to come. Funny how that is; constitutional rights and all. Don’t be too sure society is going to break your way. We are free in this country; and that option includes becomming a far more conservative. The more difficult things become in the world the more people choose to follow God’s will for their lives. That means accepting and following biblical principles. Ever wonder why singing God Bless America became so popular at MLB games? Remember 9-11-2001? Gotta love freedom.I do!!!

    • I dont appreciate your negative reference to the girl scouts. I am a leader of a girl scout troop – dedicated to helping young ladies develop in character and citizenship. I am a boy scout leader as well.

      My dedication to the scout oath and law prohibit me from speaking what I think of your commentary.

      Gary K.
      Eagle Scout – class of 1976

      • The Girl Scouts have changed since there homosexual policy has changed. The Girl Scouts are now more into promoting the Liberal agenda, abortion, etc. than developing character and citizenship.

      • As a Girl Scout leader for the last 12 years (and Boy Scout leader for 15), I would strongly disagree with that, Ron. The Girl Scout program teaches leadership through a systematic process; outdoor skills; high levels of skill in communication, civic involvement, and financial literacy. It has awards that support girls understanding and following their own faith. We have a patch program for asthma, but although I am a state-level trainer, I have *never* seen anything that promotes abortion. My Girl Scouts are, if anything, more deeply involved in citizenship than my boys. Unless you are a leader in the program, you must be speaking based on rumors, rather than on a careful examination of the handbooks.

      • As the proud parent of a Gold Award recipient, I think your comments our off base. She spent four years as an intern in the State Legislature through a GSA program, and did just as much work earning her award as our son did earning his Eagle. It’s an excellent program that suffers from all of the same issues as Boy Scouts (finding good volunteers, competition with other youth activities, insufficient funding, etc).

      • I was a Girl Scout leader for 2 years. Ron is 100% correct when describing Girl Scouts. At least in my area. They actively spread a Liberal agenda and that is why I left.

      • Wow, this is really weird! There are two people who don’t like the fact that my Girl Scout troop does a good job? Do they want my Girl Scout troop to be bad?

    • i agree with you. My wife and daughter left Girl Scouting became a battling racism group, partnered with Planned parenthood abandoned the Outdoors almost entirely. Lots of good people we know are still involved but they ignore the National curriculum and policies and deceive themselves that Girl Scouts as it was still exists.

  34. I’m always astonished at the amount of hate that this discussion brings about.

    So many people are so passionate about this issue that they seem to forget that a Scout is friendly, courteous, and kind. I’m reminded of an occasion during a Woodbadge competition when I got too “involved” and was asked to repeat the Scout Law. Maybe we ought to all take a time-out and do the same.

    Please, please, please, read the Executive Summary (linked by Brian above). It offers very valuable insight into this decision. I don’t agree with it, but I can see how we have the proposal we have.

    Also, please remember that not everyone shares the same religious beliefs. We are all free as Americans and as members of the BSA, to follow our own beliefs.

    • Kevin- You say “we are all free as Americans and as members of the BSA, to follow our own beliefs”. I am sorry but if you follow this to it’s logical conclusion, the Boy Scouts of America (as originally designed) will cease to exist. I happen to hold the belief that homosexuality is not appropriate. As a member of the BSA, I CAN NOT follow my own belief, becuase the BSA is now going to force me, if I wish to saty a member of the BSA, to accept those that do not share my position. It is sad.

      • M. I strongly believe that the BSA should act as though “Tolerant” and “Accepting” were the 13th and 14th points of the Scout Law.

        I just wish that we could conduct the conversation in a more civil manner.

      • i strongly disagree with your statement. We should be civil in our discussion, yes, but there are many, many behaviors, beliefs and (lack of) values that many of us can neither “tolerate” or “accept.”

      • Fred,

        I prefer not to judge (but I also accept that I’m not perfect, and that I do sometimes judge when I shouldn’t.) I lead my life by my own code of ethics. Others have their own code of ethics. However, I’m not bound by their code, nor are they bound by mine.

        Further, my religious beliefs are not binding on anyone else, nor are the religious beliefs of anyone else binding on me. I respect their beliefs, for example by following their conventions if I attend their worship. But if they tell me that I must believe something, or there will be eternal consequences, I politely decline.

        That (in my opinion) is being tolerant and accepting, and the lack of those two qualities at is at the core of much of the angry rhetoric that I see in this forum.

        Language matters. In your response, you mentioned “lack of values”. In this context, I take that to mean that if I disagree with you on this issue (which I believe I do), that you see that as a character flaw on my part – in fact that I’m not entitled to my beliefs.

      • Kevin, it was a specific statement addressed to your specific statement. If you are now expanding your statement to include a description of your religious beliefs, after reading your description of your religious beliefs, i disagree with a single point but agree with the rest. You can believe what you like in America and follow any religion, faith or belief. No one here as far as i can tell want to deny you your religion. Your conclusion based on “(lack of) morals ” has no basis in fact. I was referring to negative behaviors, beliefs and (lack of) values. I don’t even know yours.

        the point I disagree with you on is that for me a belief in Jesus Christ is the most important part of my life. If asked, i tell anyone about the Gospel. Our Church holds evangelistic events on our property and go into the Community to feed and house homeless people and include the Gospel. I don’t tolerate or accept other beliefs I don’t attack or try to deny folks their beliefs. I disagree. Unlike many on this list that love to marginalize Christians and downplay their very committed involvement with young people in Scouting and many other programs..

      • Kevin, no need to apologize. It gets strident on these discussions and I really did not mean to offend.

      • Kevin said: “M. I strongly believe that the BSA should act as though “Tolerant” and “Accepting” were the 13th and 14th points of the Scout Law.”

        ============

        So do you tolerate and accept cheating?

        Do you tolerate and accept lying?

        Do you tolerate and accept disrespect?

        Do you tolerate and accept pedophilia?

        Do you tolerate and accept zoophilia?

        Do you tolerate and accept bullying?

        Do you tolerate and accept tyranny?

        Do you tolerate and disobedience?

        Do you tolerate and accept drug abuse?

        I am just wondering where and how you draw the line.

      • I believe that we see this differently. The questions I would ask are:

        Are you accepting of persons with different faiths as you?
        Are you tolerant of their religious beliefs?
        Do you accept people who are different from you?
        Are you tolerant of diversity?

        By the way … to answer your specific questions … there are several of those that I tolerate or accept, depending upon the circumstances. Lying, Cheating, and Disobedience can all be the right thing to do under certain circumstances. Take for example, Gandhi and Schindler. Not an everyday occurrence, but there are no absolutes. Would you lie to prevent someone from being bullied (“no, he’s not gay, leave him along”)? Would you disobey an order that conflicted with your personal beliefs? Does Abu Graibe ring a bell? How about disobeying an authority figure? Absolutely called for under some circumstances.

        I’m comfortable with the ambiguity that is inherent in those cases. By the way, isn’t that a classic Eagle Board of Review question? What do you do when trustworthy and loyal come into conflict (lying and obedience)?

        However, the fundamental question behind all of your questions (I believe) is do I tolerate or accept victimization? That answer is no. That’s why pedophilia and rape are illegal, and homosexuality is not. The key phrase is “consenting adults.”

      • So, you’re saying that to be able to believe as you do, you cannot have gays around you? It is unfair to you for us to merely exist and be present? You may believe what you want, but you may not demand that the world pretend that those of us who are both part of the Scouting family and gay do not exist. Whether you like it or not, Scouting is mine, too. I’m an Eagle and a Vigil. You cannot take those things away from me, or the commitment to Scouting that they represent.

      • Well, if nothing else, this discussion is certainly a slap in the face to those of use sitting on Boards of Review. We apparently have not been paying nearly enough attention to the “Duty to God” and “morally straight” portions of the interview. Duly noted, thanks.

  35. It certainly would open the question of the BSA catching up with the rest of the world by not denying youth “on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.” That could VERY easily be construed as letting girls in. Yeah it says “the specific membership requirements to join” but I would take it that they have to make those requirements gender neutral. This should be interesting.

    • The BSA is the only western scouting org that doesn’t have a co-ed program. Scouts UK have had a co-ed program for a very long time and they don’t have issues with it, it has only made their program stronger.

      • It’s my understanding from conversations with people from national that BSA has talked about going coed in the past and GSUSA has advised them not to do so to avoid legal implications. I believe tha tif BSA went coed, GSUSA would lose a large portion of its membership.

      • I think you’re probably correct. There’s also been rumors that GSUSA was in a state of serious decline and was thinking of a merger with BSA. Now THAT would be some interesting change right there. I’m sure it was just a rumor however, since those friends of mine involved in GS say they’re not going anywhere.

      • The Girl Scouts have lost a lot of the membership because of the Liberal stance on homosexuality. Also they promote every Liberal agenda idea from abortion, planned parenthood, etc. The Girl Scouts have lost a lot in the last few years.

      • BSA has a co-ed program. It’s called Venturing.

        Perhaps you should know something about the organization before you decide it has to change.

      • yes they have a coed program but its only for a limited age group 14-21 and has relatively few members compared to the other sections. while there might be 100 troops in the county here, there might only be a handful of crews.

      • But Learning for Life is the branch we never discuss – you know, the one that prohibits any discrimination based on sexual orientation. 🙂

      • You are simply wrong. My daughter is a Venturer. It is an excellent program that is co-ed through BSA.

      • For the Supporters of Canadian and UK Scouting, they are far smaller groups than USA and saw long declines in membership after adoption of immoral and pop culture policies. A small increase recently yes, but a shadow of their heyday.

      • they are smaller primarily because they have a lower population, and in Canada that population is significantly more spread out. geographic distances as well as the harsher weather makes scouting a more difficult endeavor there.

    • Wait, being a girl is a sexual orientation or preference? Really? Don’t orientation and preference denote who a person is interested in and not the anatomy of the person with the orientation?

      • Is it true that two people don’t like the idea that having XX chromosomes is not a sexual preference? Huh? You really don’t like “being a girl” not being a sexual orientation? Hi, my name is Karen Zeller and my sexual orientation is “I’m a girl.” I really don’t think that’s what the term “sexual orientation” means, but I guess to at least two people out there, that’s what it means.

      • Okay, this is getting weirder and weirder. First someone claims that not keeping people out based on “orientation and preference alone” means we will be forced to let in girls. I question the idea that being a girl is a sexual orientation — because to me it is obvious that being a girl is *not* an orientation — and two people don’t like that, now three people. So does that mean that three people think we should consider seriously the idea that being a girl is a sexual orientation? I question that, trying to point out that XX chromosomes produce female anatomy, but that anatomy and who one prefers sexually are two different things, and one person doesn’t like that. I’m seriously trying to figure out the argument here. Are you thinking that orientation is chromosomally determined, that all girls have a certain orientation? Or do you not like someone talking about chromosomes? I really feel like Alice in Wonderland here. Where is it being taught that “girl” is a sexual orientation?

  36. Well, as noted, we seem to have made things worse with this resolution. What I do not see here is the leadership approval being put totally in the hands of the Charter Organization. For me, that was the real problem, and if this passes, still is. Not a word anywhere about what initially was called “local option” in regard to leadership. If that simply addition was added to this I would find it acceptable. As is, I see nothing but more problems. The transition from youth to adult problem is already noted in numerous postings, and that does not appear to have been even thought about, though it may have been.

    Tend to agree that this is just a big refusal to deal realistically with the problem, bending to both sides and accomplishing little. Back to the local trenches, and just try and keep the program alive.

    • The executive summary of the surveys says:

      • Parents, teens, and the Scouting community do not favor a local chartered organization option.

      • the chartered organization solution is a broken model and only results in one additional outside group having a say and entirely different set of standards than the group they might give space to.

    • I think and hope that this was a very carefully crafted resolution in the hopes that it will be common ground that can be adopted. It seems to have been designed to address one large problem – homosexual youth – while still allowing units that condemn homosexual behavior the out of asserting that sexual conduct by youth is not in keeping with Scouting values. It skirts the large arguments of ‘divide and conquer’ or CO lawsuits under the local option. In addition, so many of the comments that I have seen on this and other venues center around ‘the safety of our boys’. These are heartfelt concerns, whether they are empirically valid or not, and would have been a big stumbling block for the local option because of units coming together at camps, etc.

      This resolution is not all that I had hoped it would be but I certainly suppport it as a step in the direction of inclusion and of following our own policies of respect for the faith values of others.

      • Momma: Where do you see an “out” for the CO’s that condemn homosexuality. I don’t see it. Also, since separate but equal was ban in Brown v. Bd. of Education, once the door is open, there is no “out”. WHat will happen is that many CO’s will lose their Church affilaition and close down. THen if any CO does not accept a gay or transgendered youth, the lawsuit starts. I think those wanting this change should be careful what they wish for.

      • Joe, I read that in the statement that says, “AND WHEREAS, Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting”

        If you have read through the comments on Bryan’s listening phase post, we heard time and again that “it isn’t the attraction that is immoral but the homosexual act” and this, IMO, is a nod to that sentiment.

        I refuse to enter into ‘slippery slope’ or ‘the sky is falling’ type of thinking. Since even the LDS church has a policy that same sex attraction is not wrong if it is not acted upon (“The Church distinguishes between same-sex attraction and behavior. While maintaining that feelings and inclinations toward the same sex are not inherently sinful, engaging in homosexual behavior is in conflict with the “doctrinal principle, based on sacred scripture … that marriage between a man and a woman is essential to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.””), I don’t see why COs would lose church affiliation over this. Nor does the policy address transgendered youth in any way.

      • Momma: This policy change is a one shot deal. If we open the door, it cannot be changed. Because the BSA doesn’t address transgenderism and sticks its head in the sand, there is no doubt that the LGBT crowd will use it as a sledgehammer. We must take into account all aspects of the change and use the crystal ball because eventually it will become reality and bite us in the …… Also, what I read from open and avowed is those that seek to advocate for the behavior. If you go to the New York Gay Pride Parade, you will know what I mean. What do you think the reaction will be when a transgendered boy/girl comes to a scoutmeating and wants to join? Use your crystal ball. If you don’t think about it now, it will be too late when it actually happens.

      • the solution is simple of you charted organization would not want to allow membership to a youth of adult based on their sexual orientation than you simple should NOT HAVE A BSA SCOUT GROUP. start a church youth group since scouting it is not.

    • Wes, I tend to think that’s the right approach. I think for everyone, we need to realize that Rome wasn’t built in a day. Neither are major policy changes completely decided and adjudicated in a day. We should be patient when it comes to changes such as are being proposed.

      I think the BSA is right to ensure inclusion for all youth. I feel like they should let the chartering organization, as they always have, make the decisions regarding adults. Employ two deep leadership as the mechanism to prevent abuse.

      Regardless, I’m glad that the program is looking after the youth.

  37. So sad to hear the capitulation by the Boy Scouts. Another great organization lost to the fluid morals of todays generation. Considering that many if not most of the CO’s are under the auspices of the local churches, this new policy will cause a number of Troops to be unchartered. Also, this is start of many lawsuits against the BSA and every one of its leaders if a CO decides not to accept an openly gay or transgendered scout. I for one do not want to be named in a lawsuit and if the policy is approved, I will resign my position. Throwing out morals over money is the downfall of our society.

  38. Well, let’s look at the actual language of the proposed new youth membership policy:

    “Youth membership in the Boy Scouts of America is open to all youth who meet the specific membership requirements to join the Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, Sea Scout, and Venturing programs. Membership in any program of the Boy Scouts of America requires the youth member to (a) subscribe to and abide by the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law, (b) subscribe to and abide by the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle (duty to God), and (c) demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.”

    So what do we learn from this? A youth is required to “subscribe to and abide by the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.” But because, under this proposed policy, a youth may not be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone, then this policy, if adopted, would clearly state that simply being gay or lesbian is not contrary to “the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.”

    In other words, under this proposal, open or avowed homosexuals — at least those who are youth — can indeed be “morally straight” and “clean.”

    Hmmm. But if BSA recognizes that a gay youth can be morally straight and clean, doesn’t that mean that a gay adult can be morally straight and clean too? And if an open or avowed homosexual adult can be morally straight and clean, what is the basis for excluding such an adult from leadership?

    • Dan, that thought all but breaks down here…
      AND WHEREAS, Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual,
      by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting;

      Sounds like if you have sex before you are out of Scouts, you are not living up to the values of Scouting, and If you have Gay Sex, then not only can you not be a scout but you can’t be a scout leader.

      Sounds like we are teaching Abstinence and to not accept homosexuals to be among us at the same time.

      • Sure, this proposal advocates sexual abstinence for all youth. No problem there. And it perpetuates discrimination against gays and lesbians by not letting them be leaders. And it even continues to treat homosexual youth differently: While a youth can’t be denied membership based on sexual orientation “alone,” he could be denied membership based on sexual orientation plus some other little trivial issue.

    • Dan: I am confused if one is open or avowed: To acknowledge openly, boldly, and unashamedly; confess, how can one also fulfill all of the requirements you repeat above? If one is an avowed homosexual or trangendered person, doesn’t that definition imply that he/she agrees and advances those choices? This would by every definition and comparison go against the policy set forth. What we then have is the BSA turning into lawsuit central.. . . . again.

      • Choices. I disagree with the notion that it is a choice. The only choices I see are ones where a person is willing to accept who they are vs. what they believe society wants them to be.

      • Bryan, the PRACTICE is a choice. (Excepting rape), every time you engage in a sexual act, it’s a choice. That’s why the “open and avowed” phrase is there — I have yet to meet a person who had romantic feelings for the same gender, but had not acted on them, be considered open and avowed. The people I know in that category are still trying to get a handle on what exactly they do feel, and why. The practice of homosexuality is a CHOICE.

      • you can be a open heterosexual even if you have never had sex just as you can be an open homosexual even if you haven’t had sex. the act itself is also not an actual indication of ones true sexuality as one can experiment either way even with someone they arent sexually attracted to.

      • Dan, I think individuals are perfectly capable of self-identifying as homosexual long before they engage in any sexual conduct. At what age did you know that you were attracted to the opposite sex (and talk with your peers about your attractions)? [This would be the ‘open and avowed’ part.] I would venture to guess that it was a decade or more later before you actually had sex.

      • Just my interpretation of the proposal, but I think the idea is that BSA is no longer going to toss out youth because of “sexual orientation or preference alone.” Rather, there would have to be some behavior or other disqualification. Behavior could be related to homosexuality, of course, such as being caught having sex, or perhaps even simply engaging in gay activism that was too much of a “distraction” (as in the current policy). But simple openness about one’s sexual orientation or simple expression of opinion that there was no problem with a gay lifestyle or a statement of intent to engage in gay sex upon reaching adulthood would not seem to be enough under this proposed policy.

      • Now can you just imagine that a Scout Leader denies that “proposed scout” membership. Will you be the scoutmaster that volunteers to be sued? I think not. This is not a fix and really there is no problem if the policy stays as it is.

      • This is far less about the youth than about putting the practice of homosexuality on the same level as heterosexuality. It’s yet one more attempt to classify it as normal.

    • I did get a kick out of this line in the resolution: “the Boy Scouts of America does not have an agenda on the matter of sexual orientation.” Really? So all of this fuss is about something that doesn’t matter to BSA? Or does that mean, “We have other agendas that are adversely affected by this issue.” Or does it mean, “We don’t have an agenda on the matter of sexual orientation, so our policy on sexual orientation is not based on any principles.”

      • I suspect, Dan, that it is just a matter of the changing usage of the term “agenda.” It used to mean, as its Latin root suggests, just a list of things to be done. Your DayPlanner in the 1980s might also have been called your agenda. But now it is part of the lexicon of loaded diction used to accuse people of nefarious purposes, and BSA doesn’t want to be labeled as “having an agenda,” with that connotation. Of course, all of us have lists of things we want to do, prioritized and timelined. I don’t think they are using agenda in that sense.

  39. SR121: Watched the video and am amazed that with the proof that we already have, change the policy = 50% or more scouts leaving the program, why would we even contemplate this change? Isn’t the scouts the reason for the program? I would rather have the scouting program with its current policy, even if our troop had top raid every dime it spent and was limited to public facilities for camping and other activities. This is a travesty.

    • Would appreciate those that gave me a thumbs down actually reply. If the proof of the devestating losses due to the policy changes is a fact for both out northern neighbor and our friends across the ocean, then those that disagreed with me must want that to be the outcome for our BSA. Am I wrong?

      • Joe, I didn’t give you a thumb down, but I’ll respond anyway.

        BSA’s numbers are already down 30% in the last 15 years and continuing to fall. People keep repeating the ‘70% of units sponsored by faith-based organizations’ as if its a good thing. That number was 62% only five years ago. We are losing the community sponsored units at an alarming rate. The only faith-based sponsor that is showing any growth is the LDS church – all others are showing a decline.

        Will the proposed changes eventually turn those numbers around? I don’t know. But I do know that there is no room for growth down the current path and the anti-gay membership policy is a major factor in organizations dropping support for Scouting.

        People will leave in May no matter what happens.

      • Jim: How do you make the leap that because most scouts come from faith-based organizations and numbers are down, that the faith-based organization is the cause? The logic isn’t there. On the contrary, the faith-based organization are keeping the numbers from going down further. I think the reasons are varied but our declining morals, parents with no time or patience for their children, single parent homes, etc are partly to blame.

      • joe, he’s saying that membership is down period, the only growth has been in the LDS units. Fewer faith based units as a percentage (sans LDS) than 15 years ago or so. The BSAs Hay Day was in the mid 70’s, and we’ve lost membership every year since more or less. Back then almost every church had a scout troop, now it’s a little over half, and that coincides with the lower membership in churches as well, at least in youth membership in churches, those numbers are way down.

      • Joe, I never said faith-based charters were the cause of membership decline. I simply pointed out that BSA is losing community sponsored units at an alarming rate and since traditional churches are all in decline, there’s no growth potential without something changing. If you can’t make the program marketable outside of conservative churches, it will continue its slide into irrelevance.

        For the record, I welcome and support our faith-based sponsors, but we can’t rely exclusively on them.

      • If the B.S.A. needs to market to the current society at large, then what’s the point of the B.S.A. We are supposed to be leaders/shapers of society, not a dandelion seed blowing in the wind.

      • Recall what happened when United Way stopped brokering for BSA. Private donations easily made up the difference. Again I plead “Shoemaker stick to thy last”. We will be stronger for our trials faced by being resolute. Vote no change!

      • LDS should not try to be coy. This is also significant:

        “In spite of the LDS statement, the Great Salt Lake Council’s Scout survey shows that rank and file BSA members overwhelming support the existing policy and do not want open homosexuality in the Boy Scout program. That survey showed:”

        * 82% of BSA members opposed a policy change allowing open homosexuality in the BSA.

        * 47% Said they would leave the program

        * 22% said they would be less involved

        Nationwide, the BSA’s own official “Voice of the Scout” survey shows respondents support the current policy by supermajority of a 61% to 34% margin. Additionally:

        * 72 % of chartered organizations support the current policy

        * 64 % of council and district volunteers support the current policy

        * 62 % of unit leaders support the current policy

        * 61 % of Boy Scout parents support the current policy

        * 50 % of Cub Scout parents support the current policy

        These are the only numbers that matter. Again, I think its clear BSA is looking to the least experienced Scouters and most immature Scouts for this decision.

      • Fred, Are these results from the survey that was solicited to the BSA membership about a month ago?

      • To the best of my knowledge, it is the results. It came from a trusted Scouter. The bottom part percentages are directly from the report.

        Fred Cooper

        Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:33:10 +0000 To: fcoopercpa@hotmail.com

      • Fred Cooper thanks for the numbers. Just because the LDS Church has given their approval to the new proposal from the BSA doesn’t mean that the rest of the LDS Units will go along with the vote to approve the BSA proposal. The Church has no vote in itself it can only give an opinion and that is all. The BSA Councils through out the Nation is the key to defeat this measure. Please don’t give up for the first time in my LDS membership I will do all I can to see this proposal defeated. I believe there is to much at stake. Sincerely Trenton Spears

      • I encourage everyone to get the survey results for their Council. Mine was 18 pages of very interesting information and an affirmation of what I believed about my fellow Scouters here. 83% support the current policy. I’m surprised it was that low. Support all the way down to the Cub Scout level.

      • Wallace I for one do not agree with the proposal to lift the ban on Homosexual Youth from the BSA. I believe the LDS Church have placed a unnecessary burden on the LDS Church Scout leaders and the missionary efforts of the Church. You cannot replace Godly correctness with political correctness I believe that is what the LDS Church has done. I am a LDS and as a Scoutmaster how do I address the subject of a homosexual Scout. If it is brought up at our Scout meeting do I tell the Scout that as long as you do not practice the act of homosexuality you are ok. Is it proper to address the subject with other non-Homosexual Scouts in the Troop? In my many years with the Church I have faithfully followed the doctrine of the Church because it did not conflict with God and his Son Jesus Christ. My heart is heavy with this new burden that has been placed on me and possibly others . It will be a struggle to remain a Scout Leader in my calling and I will pray heavily that this BSA proposal will not become a reality in Scouting. Faithful but challenged. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • Trenton, It is heart breaking but I’ll wait till the BSA makes their final decision on the membership policy. Fred Cooper put up some numbers on the results of the survey the BSA conducted and it appears pretty conclusive that the membership don’t want to change the Membership policy. Practically thinking about what a change in membership might mean I’m assuming there won’t be many openly homosexual boys joining the BSA or participating in the BSA. I’ve only known one who eventually earned his Eagle but didn’t “come out” until he was in college. If less than one percent of the population are homosexual and just under half of that number are male then I can’t imagine many wanting to join the BSA anyway. I guess with those numbers its not likely to be an issue in most troops as a whole but there will be significant problems if the membership policy is changed. Doesn’t take much vision to anticipate what some of those problems will be. I honestly see myself stepping away from much involvement if it becomes an issue. Godly men with divine inspiration created the BSA to serve for His purpose and the BSA doesn’t have to survive continuously if He chooses to lift His blessing from the BSA; a spiritual sodom and gomora. It can be destroyed by this policy change and then be reborn in time. Its truly a spirited organization that can always be recreated and rebuilt. I’m praying for the BSA too Trenton. It’s heavy on my heart too.

      • Wallace, According to the Executive Summary of the report:

        “They estimate a membership policy change that includes both youth and adults could cause the BSA to incur membership losses in a range from 100,000 to 350,000. It is believed any gain in membership because of a change to the membership policy related to youth and adults would be in the range of 10,000 to 20,000 youth.”

        And one point to remember, that the original proposal was for the policy to be punted to the local councils. This policy change – especially as it is worded – is going to come across as the “Key 3” trying to shove their agenda down the local councils’ throats. At least in my opinion.

        If those numbers are anywhere near accurate, even the BEST case shift in membership will be devastating.

        You know, the principle of being “morally straight” has nothing to do with sexual preference. It has to do with things like integrity and rightness before God. Taking the narrow road rather than the wide road and not compromising on principles or character. In this the Executive Council has completely let us down.

      • membership is dropping because parents are over committing their kids in sports and other activities. Scouting is not a priority to most people nowadays. The exclusion of gays within BSA has ZERO to do with the decline in numbers particularly in Texas. In fact if this policy is changed I know numerous people who will drop BSA. I predict that if the policy is changed you will see at least a 30% drop in membership. It may not happen immediately as people like to determine the alternative but it will happen.

      • You forgot video games too. Local 4-H extension leader told me he learned long time ago that they were a 3rd tier organization these days., Means kids will pick 2 other activities before they choose 4-H.

        Sports is #1 because it is mandatory attendance and if you don’t show you don’t play. Son sat the bench for 4 games after his trip to Boundary Waters last year. It only gets worse in high school. We had HS softball games the week of spring break.

      • sadly you are right on and its one of the main motivators for those who are still in scouting to stay and continue to fight for equality. if they continue to leave and bsa is left solely with the most conservative groups then bsa will never change. the percentage of bigots will continue to increase solely by pushing out all who opposed them.

      • dewey said: “the percentage of bigots will continue to increase solely by pushing out all who opposed them.”

        ============

        I find that to be a rather bigoted statement in and of itself. How ironic. Why is your bigotry better than the people you oppose?

      • Membership is increasing in the Scout Association in the UK
        Canada changed a lot of things at once to try to stop membership decline. The BSA is not proposing to do anything like what they did. And we also need to take into account that both the BSA membership and US society, at least according to the surveys taken this year, are behind this policy change.

      • Joe, i was a thumbs up. The opponents of what you believe would rather snipe around the edges that logically challenge your argument. Lots of emotion on the homosexual proponent side.

      • I would imagine that they are giving you thumbs down because they don’t like the message, Joe. Progressives do not like to be confronted by data or facts. How they – and only they – feel about an issue is what matters. The fact that millions have enjoyed a safe, wholesome camaraderie for a century doesn’t matter; they don’t like it so it has to change. Then they’ll leave anyway because the uniforms are the wrong color or something.

      • loosing the most conservative members is hardly something that anyone should be worried about. the majority of mainstream American society doesn’t discriminate based on sexuality so neither should the scouting program. an ever increasing percentage of the population does believe in equal rights for gays and more every day in support of gay marrige. this momentum isnt going away.

    • your troop already has to raise every dime it spends, all funds donated to council and national, and most funds even on popcorn etc go to council and national, the local troop gets a small amount for popcorn, but all donations unless given to a specific troop go to council or national.

      • Yes, I was a little unclear. If our costs would go up because we had to raise extra funds because of the idiotic policies of some companies that pulled funds from the national, I would be willing to step up to keep our organization as it is. I have also written previously, where are all of the conservative run corporations with their donations?

      • well since corporations by law are required to not discriminate on the basis of age, nationality, sexuality, gender etc. the only ones left are those like chickaflick

      • Hey Dewey. There is no requirement in law that prevents corporations from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation. Only small-minded discriminatory City Councils that added that provision require corporations and individuals to violate their moral beliefs to make a living in these “discriminating” cities and communities.

      • There are public accommodation laws, and in some states they include LGBT individuals.

      • That is true but federal discrimination law supercedes all state and local law as imposed by force of arms some 150 years ago and federal law allows discrimination based on sexual orientation and while the federal government imposes acceptance and promotion of LGTB in hiring and workforce, it has not yet imposed it on every American.

      • the most conservative corporations have continued their donations but really these have zero affect on your local program. most money given by the large corporate donors goes right to the council/national who spends it on professional salaries.

    • That youtube video is hyperbole and not giving all of the facts. It’s a propaganda piece and should be treated as such.

      • I love how a picture of Andy Griffith is used in the beginning of the video. He would not agree with the FRC.

      • On this I agree. The themes on the Andy Griffith Show are compatible with Scouting. Andy Griffith as a person did not live up to those values and would not have taken part or been asked to take part in this video.

      • In what manner did Andy Griffith fail to uphold the Scout Oath and Law?

      • Y’all do know that the Sheriff Andy Taylor character on the show was fictional right? Before you get to giddy, I loved the Andy Griffith Show and the values it represented. I loved the Matlock show too, my mother probably watched it 1,000 hours.

        But, Andy was a Democrat who supported Democrat causes. I just don’t think he would stand with the current policy which is where i believe BSA needs to stay.

        He was a good man as far as I know just supported democrats which I don’t. Griffith starred in a web video with director Ron Howard, reprising their roles from “The Andy Griffith Show” to endorse Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama.

        In 2010, Griffith pitched President Obama’s health care law in a 30- second ad aimed at older viewers.

      • No, I’m alluding that Andy Griffith the person probably would have supported the proposed policy. Nice try though 😉

      • Fred,
        I never mentioned the show, I mentioned Andy Griffith, not Andy Taylor. I asked however, how he failed to uphold the Scout Oath and Law, which you have not answered. Unless of course your answer is that he was a democrat or that he supported a health care law.

      • DLDW. That is my answer. Any person who would back Obama and deceive old folks on Medicare would jump at the chance to seek full inclusion of homosexuals in Scouting. I believe that wholeheartedly. Obama has already said he supports homosexuality in Scouting. I believe Andy Griffith would track right along with him.

      • This is too ludicrous to even warrant a response. A far-left show with far-left production and an imaginary President played by a far-left actor who while claiming to be personally Catholic, supports Pro-choice causes and same-sex marriage.

      • The passages he quotes from the Bible are equally ludicrous if they were upheld today. So just who gets to determine which ones we keep and which ones we don’t? Jesus made it real easy and said to just love on another.

      • BSA gets to set the Policy and I did not bring the into it. You did. I responded to what you said. I will repeat again, I don not believe BSA is a Christian organization. My Church sponsors our Troop because Boy Scouts of America current Policies are compatible with our Christian beliefs and I do believe BP was intentional with that. If BSA adopts this new policy, we will most likely surrender our Charter. We would have for certain with the first proposal.

        Jesus said a lot more than “love one another.’ Obedience to His Word requires a lot more than that and if you are Christian you know that.

      • Compatible with *whose* Christian beliefs? Many churches believe it is fully Christ-like to “hate the sin and love the sinner”. Loving the sinner fully means *including them*.

      • Jesus never said it was ok to allow homosexuals to be members of the BSA. If he were here today do you actually believe He would? He didn’t come to change the Jewish laws but to offer forgiveness of sins so believers could have an eternal life with God and Himself in heaven. It wasn’t an issue then because nobody questioned how the Jews felt about homosexuality. I think when the book describing the history of your nation describes a city being burned to the ground by fire and brimstone that’s good enough to convince you that homosexuality isn’t what God intended for His creation to do with their bodies. Jesus wasn’t a Christian; He was a Jew. I think I’ll follow Him and take my chances on His promise of salvation; the alternative isn’t for me; I hate hot weather…

      • This video clip is neither reverent nor promotes a belief in God both contrary to the the mission of Boy Scouts.

        And this is what you use to promote your agenda and win points for your side of the argument.

        Bad form.

    • Because they don’t believe that people will actually leave. They’re sorely mistaken, but they apparently believe it is a bluff.

      • many will continue to stay even if the decision is contrary to what they believe in as they view the other aspects of the program to be most important and are just not willing to make change.

    • What video are you talking about Joe,and how do I access it?
      Thanks Bob,SR501-19

      • It’s great that you are willing to stand up and quit because you find a discriminatory policy immoral. It’s too bad more here aren’t like you. You’ll join many Eagle scouts who have returned their award because they also feel it is inexcusable to exclude any boy from scouting.

      • and what percentage have returned their medals? and what percentage have not? Sad, yes but that is the right of an Eagle Scout to return or keep. Its becoming a little clearer where they are from and what they are taught.

        My son has not and agrees with the current Scout Policy. Every Scout he knows does so if you are looking for an opposite response to all those decrying Scouts not agreeing with the current policy, not a single Scout or parent supports a Policy change. They see it clearly as a moral issue and an right of association issue.

      • Fred,
        Can you clarify, “Every Scout he knows does so if you are looking for an opposite response to all those decrying Scouts not agreeing with the current policy, not a single Scout or parent supports a Policy change.”

        Are you saying that no current Scout or parent supports a Policy change?

        I think the results of the Voice of Scouting questionnaire proves that many do support a Policy change.

      • Not what I said at all DLDW. A lot posters have posted the outrage of a Scout having to return his medal because of the “discriminatory” policy of the BSA.

        Well, it’s not the majority or even a significant minority and that is their choice. I think its wrong-headed but they have that right and I support their right to express it. Its not the majority choice and so much like homosexuality, its a minority of choice and opinion. That is all I am saying and thought it was clear.

      • I’m an Eagle Scout and freely choose to keep and appreciate what the rank and what scouting has meant throughout my life. My son recently earned the rank of Eagle and describes his journey as the most significant part of his life so far; he recently became an adult and a leader in our troop. I’m very proud of my son. He supporta the current membership policy and sees a change as reaulting in sexuality becomming a topic of discussio within the scouting ranks which he says has absolutely no place or significance to him in scouting conversations now. He’s the future of scouting and we’ll do whatever we can to defend and preserve it to be what it is and has always been. Some traditions you don’t throw away or change because pop culture or the media dictates you should or have to. Some are worth fighting for and we come from a long line of fighters in our family going back to the creation of this Great Nation and beyond.

      • All parents would agree that sexuality should have absolutely no place in Scouting. If BSA adopted a policy that said “sexuality has absolutely no place in Scouting”, debating homosexuality would no longer be an issue.

        The problem is, BSA told the Supreme Court in 2000 that BSA teaches that homosexual conduct is immoral. And to this day, including in the proposed changes, BSA continues the teaching that homosexual conduct is immoral.

        BSA has inserted sexuality in Scouting. Homosexuality in would not be an issue for Scouting if they had not. BSA can remove the issue from Scouting if they want to, but they refuse to do so.

      • Homosexual behavior is immoral and will always be immoral; that will never change. Doesn’t mean homosexuals are any less the sinners we all are. A big difference I see is that I don’t try to convince our largely Christian culture that my sins aren’t sinful but acceptable behavior that should be tolerated and accepted by everyo e just because i say so and want it to be so. I choose freely to try to mold my character to be more like the character if Christ. Truth of my heart tells me I fail but I continue to try. You can’t expect Christians to accept homosexual behavior to not be seen as sinful behavior because you want it to be that way. You also can’t expect Christians to abandon their principles or to leave scouting. I believe if a homosexual wants to be in scouting they need to mold their character to the principles of scouting in the same way a homosexual can certainly choose to mold their lives to Christian Biblical Principles. There are homosexual Christians looking forward to an eternal life with God same as I am. Everyone is free to either act upon their temptations or not to act upon their temptations. But Christianity, and other faiths rooted in God’s word provide boundaries we choose to mold our lives to in order to live a better life. Scouting also has standards that provide guidelines for living a better life by molding your life to a higher standard; a higher moral standard. Everyone’s free to choose or not to choose but your wrongful when your out to destroy the standards; the mold. RESPECT what other people have come to learn to respect about scouting and that is that it gives boys a place to grow into a mold that will lead them to live a more fullfilling life of service to God, Country and Family.

      • “Homosexual behavior is immoral and will always be immoral; that will never change. ”

        According to who?

        If a boy attends a church that teaches otherwise, how does that boy fulfill his duty to God in BSA?

      • In many Pagan beliefs there is a god and a goddess. A heterosexual has more of one than another..so a straight female would have more goddess energy and a straight male more god energy. A homosexual is a balance of both energies.

        Now, we do disagree sometimes, but even those that don’t believe the above tend to believe that all acts of love are sacred. Homophobia and intolerance are considered harmful and not a part of any good Pagan’s life. So the BSA does make it hard for the boy to fulfill his duty in that situation.

      • The Episcopalian Church in the U.S., and the Evangelical Lutheran church in the U.S., both teach that homosexual behavior is not immoral.

        BSA’s teachings on sexuality contradict the moral teachings of these two churches. Are members of BSA really okay with closing off BSA to Episcopalian and Lutheran families? Wouldn’t it be far wiser to advise boys that sexuality should be taught by their parents and church, not by BSA, which was the policy of BSA until the 1980s?

      • For Episcopalians, Duty to God means I do not discriminate or exclude based on sexual preference. Baden Powell did not designate a religion when Scouting was setup. So Scouting is not purely a Christian nor LDS, nor fill in the blank organization. It belongs to people of all faiths and should be in line with those faiths.

      • So, what is sounds like you are saying is that the BSA is really in the business of moral relativism…clinging to whatever is popular in the current society?

      • So, what is sounds like you are saying is that the BSA is really in the business of moral relativism…clinging to whatever is popular in the current society?

        “the home and the organization with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.” — BSA Declaration of Religious Principles.

        If you think a family being free to choose their own religion is “moral relativism”, then yes, BSA is in the business of moral relativism.

      • Their teachings are not in line with the Bible; the book they profess to be using for their disciplines. These are sinful churches who will eventually disolve because as members are becomming to realize what these churches really stand for and how those beliefs contradict biblical principles they are leaving these churches and moving to churches that do follow biblical principles in their church disciplines. Report the membership stats on these churches since their declines began; their acceptance of non-biblical principles in their disciplines. Their sinfulness will eventually lead to their destruction. Is that what you want for the BSA cwgmpls; if you can’t have it your way then nobody will have it because your out to destroy it with your selfish attitude.

      • Wallace, you admit to being a sinner, but don’t think your sins should exclude you from Scouting. How do we choose? Is a little white lie Ok, or petty thievery? What about grand larceny? Unless you think adulterers are morally straight, why not advocate excluding them from scouting. Didn’t Christ ask us to love the sinner, and leave the judgement to him? WWJD. If he wasn’t afraid of associating with Mary Magdalime, why are we

      • When the woman who was caught in the act of adultery was brought to Jesus by the religious leaders of His day, Jesus didn’t condemn her, but He didn’t condone the sin of adultery either. He told her to “go and sin no more”. No matter what the sin, you can be forgive, but once forgiven you have to make the effort to “go and sin no more”.

      • And exactly who’s place is it to forgive or condemn? Yours? Mine? The Boy Scouts of America’s?

      • Beth no one is condeming anyone. Most bloggers on this forum want to protect the BSA from becoming a past organization. It has been the leading force in teaching our nation’s youth in solid values and leadership skills. Sincerely Trenton Spears

      • So you don’t believe banning someone from the BSA on the premise that they aren’t ‘morally straight’ and may pose a risk to the other youth in the program isn’t a condemnation?

      • gah… double negative. that should read… So you don’t believe banning someone from the BSA on the premise that they aren’t ‘morally straight’ and may pose a risk to the other youth in the program is a condemnation?

      • Beth you continue to make some statements that are simply not true. There is only one condemnation that belongs to God. It is a fact that a certain group of people want to make a change in a program that does not need or want a change and that group refuses to form their own program but seeks to divide a program that was estabished since 1910. Beth standing for those timeless values is not condemnation and you know it. The law suits that will come from this proposal will distroy the very core of the best youth program in the last 103 years. Beth if athiest, transgenders, and same sex married couples wanted to be a Scout leaders would you be ok with that. Where will it end. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • Trenton, they will NOT stop. I have lived in the San Franciso Bay Area all my life, and the gay movement will not quit till every law and promise is corrupted toward their own goals.

      • Mrs. Beth is going to say we says something other than what we wrote everytime it fit her agenda. She time and time again on this talking subject accuses people of stuff they never said. Me thinks they should delete Mrs. Beth’s bad comments, and not Old Scouter’s, her not honest, nor respectful of her elders.

      • Beth, we discriminate with (not against) girls and atheists as well. There is no condemnation of these groups either. All groups are not for all people. Some ideas are just repugnant to the very nature of the organization. Homosexuality and sexuality in general in Boy Scouts is simply repugnant.

        We can see what happens when an organization allows the secular culture to corrupt its values. Just look a the Girl Scouts website which shows girls about birth control. No, we shall learn from the mistakes made by the Girls scouts. No secular politics into Boy Scouts!

      • “Some ideas are just repugnant to the very nature of the organization. Homosexuality and sexuality in general in Boy Scouts is simply repugnant.”

        If your a girl scout leader, what are you doing in this discussion? Are you trying to make us more like the girl scouts?

      • Yes, Mark, I happen to be a Girl Scout leader and trainer. I am *also* a Cubmaster for most of the last 15 years, a Venturing Advisor for the last 5 years, an Assistant Scoutmaster and former Troop Chaplain, a member of the District committee, the chair of the Council’s Special Needs committee, a past Wood Badge Scoutmaster, and a wearer of a Scouting religious knot. No, Boy Scouts is not my whole life, only about 70 days a year; during the rest I lead Girl Scouts, teach high school, serve as elder and Christian educator at my church, and sing in the choir.

        Now, about that Girl Scout material you said is on the GSUSA website — can you give us a link?

      • Since Boys Scout policy says homosexuality is incompatible with Scouting, we can rest assured it does not include being homosexual.

    • You should practice what you preach McLeod. You should be accepting of the principles of scouting and choose to join if you want those principles for your life and the lives of your children. The organization was created for some people who have a desire to bring their sons into manhood by instilling moral values, love of God and Country, and a love of solid principles into their hearts. there is a spirit about it; a Scouting Spirit. It is a travesty and a tragedy that you and other aggressive militant homosexuals and homosexual agenda supporters don’t leave the BSA alone to choose to fulfill their freely chosen mission. It’s also understandable to me why opponents of the BSA and its policies don’t choose to start their own organization with a mission oriented toward youth reflecting their freely chosen principles of how they want to live their lives and how they want to control how other people choose to live their lives and how other organizations choose to freely run their organizations; it would fail without the same spirit. Its easier to join forces with the other militant homosexual aggressors and simply hijack and steal away what you want in order to create a rightful perception. Thing is that its failing. Someone mentioned the traditional Christian denominations the militant homosexuals have hijacked to serve their selfish earthly desires; their crumbling. Christians are leaving them as the truth is being exposed to them. Good luck in your endeavor of creating your own organization if you ever have the courage to try. I say that sarcastically as I predict its failure because it isn’t really what parents want for their children. I don’t see too many parents celebrating the fact that their child has chosen to live a homosexual lifestyle. But most have a love for their child and Its a greater love that binds that parent to that child; its beyond a desire for them to find happiness on this earth. And that’s the same love that would prevent a parent from placing their son in a troop being led by a homosexual man, woman, or couple. It isn’t their desire to try to find anything but the best situation for their child and that wouldn’t ever be the best situation for their son.

    • Wrong. If the vote in May goes the wrong way; that is, is the BSA decides to abandon its core beliefs in the interest of political correctness, I and many others will leave. When an organization decides to abandon the principles upon which it was founded it will lose those members who still hold those values. Ask the churches in your area what happened when they abandoned their beliefs.

      • Baden Powell made no mention of gay scouts or leaders so how can you say BSA would be abandoning its principles? The “principle” of discrimination was later added and needs to be removed.

      • Are you seriously trying to suggest that BP would have been affirming of homosexuals in Scouting just didn’t say? That was not his world. All we say is he didn’t say anything and more likely never conceived they would be part of the program.

        Many us us on this list do not interpret Discrimination in the sense you mean. It is not denying anyone’s civil or human rights under the Law of the Land (Constitution) to deny membership in a Private organization. You just think so.

      • You keep forgetting that during Baden Powell’s life that homosexuality was illegal in Great Britain and in the US. It was also an abhorrent sin in all Christian denominations.

        So please stop projecting your views and representing them as Baden Powell’s

    • Actually, word from our council is that a large majority of the hierarchy of leadership would leave (based on the original proposal). I know of a family in another troop that has told me they will leave. I am not sure how many will leave since it is 1/2 what was originally proposed but the FOS donation cards are being held on to till after the vote in some cases. We live in a conservative council. Perhaps you don’t so your view is skewed to reflect your area which is ok. I would expect reaction varies by region as the survey indicated.

      Our troop has discussed it but are more concerned about logistics of who camps with who if this passes.

    • You are wrong about people leaving. If the BSA policy is changed, I am leaving as soon as I finish helping Scouts with Hornaday projects they started working on with me.

    • Really? No one will leave? We will, guaranteed. Also, get off your high horse. It’s a message board post, not a dissertation.

    • Joe, I agree! We don’t need one red cent of tainted money. A scout is thrifty! I say we should maintain our integrity and defend the scout law and promise to the end. A scout is brave!

    • Mr. Mcleod. You icon shows the “=” sign. Not the American flag, not the scout emblem, but this sign which stands for what. You cannot mean that “all men created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights”, an American Ideal There is not a natural right to belong to the BSA! You must believe “all men are equal”. This little corrupted phrase which has removed God, is from Karl Marx.

      • BSA say at least 1/3 and possibly another 1/3 adults in scouting will leave on one slide they uses if change passes, they says up to 400,000 childs will leave BSA. Another slide same presentation they says 10-15% adults will leave. They says 30 million in donations will leaves if policy passes. They also says major CO will leave if policy passes. BSA knows how bad this is. They also knows how attacks on childs will go up. BSA admit they better off as is than with change and still want change. Something strange.

  40. The comments on this thread are like sandpaper on my soul. I am weary beyond measure to see so much hate spilled out so freely.

  41. I sincerely hope that all of the adults that support this proposed language are ready to step up an volunteer their time as adult leaders because the BSA is going to need them.

    If this ridiculous language is passed there’s going to be some adult resignations. As someone who regularly donates 20-30 hours per week to Scouting I’d be happy to free up the time.

    • Agreed, bear. The overwhelming majority of those people who get things done in our council and are not paid for it are families who would leave. Maybe they are planning to replace us with paid people? Bwhahahaha. Laughing because BSA’s revenues would have to increase about 50 fold.

      • It’s a sign of how big our country and our organization are, KS, that this is not true in my district (or council), even though we are in the west and in a relatively rural area. Of our Council Key 3, none would leave; of the District Key 3 in the three districts I know best, none would leave; of the Wood Badge Scoutmasters of the last 13 years, none would leave; of the current trainers in these three districts, I don’t think any would leave, although one or two might. I can think of handful of others who work on product sales, lead FOS, or work on the NYLT or Wood Badge staffs who *might* leave with such a change, but the vast majority of those who “make things work” in our council will stay in Scouting — or would be more likely to leave if the policy discussions did not result at least in allowing us to keep all our youth.

      • Absolutely right, KS. Based on the conversations we’ve been having amongst our troop scouters, our SM and perhaps 4 ASMs would stay, as would one or two of our Committee. The Committee Chair, the COR, the rest of the Committee, and the other 12 ASMs (including ALL the non-WASP ASMs) will leave. If the BSA decides to cave to political correctness rather than stand for their values our troop will suddenly be all white, all wealthy liberal-Christian, and unable to meet basic safety and YPT requirements under most circumstances. Such are the costs of surrendering to those who want “inclusion” and “tolerance” of their beliefs in the interest of “diversity” but who refuse to respect the beliefs of the people who built and maintain the organization in the first place.

  42. What message do we send the youth when it is ok for anyone to be a member of Scouting until they turn 18, then one day they are suddenly no longer welcome? Like somehow they have changed overnight into a vile unmoral beast. Either you make the change for all membership or you make the change for none, doing it half way is a joke. While I support accepting changing the membership standards, I could have lived with the standards remaining because I believe in the program first and foremost. But this half way proposal seems to suddenly send a much more negative message, vilifying gay adults, that I will have to do some serious thinking as to if my son will remain in scouting and If I will continue to donate my time and money to the program I once respected.

    • if you read any of the stories of people getting kicked out of scouts over the years and there have been thousands of people they truly are cases that “one day they are suddenly no longer welcome”. in the bsa you certainly can be praised by troop and council leaders one day and well liked by the scouts but if you piss off the wrong person by doing something like reporting membership fraud or extortion on the part of the paid scouters you will be terminated.

  43. I sent this note to my Eagle Scout son, who is now 19, straight, a Religious Studies major, and an activist for social justice for all:

    Son, I know you are passionate about this. I know this is not exactly the resolution we would have liked to see. However, being respectful of the careful process by which it was drafted, I urge you to be careful what you say and do in reaction.

    Rather than quitting Scouting, it is my feeling that those who feel differently could have a greater impact by staying IN the program and supporting those young men who might now choose to be a part of the program. It would also be helpful to subtly be there to smooth ugly talk against homosexuality. Not engage in combative arguments, but offer wise insights into another way of thinking. We can work from within the organization to change minds for the next time this comes up….and it will.

    I love you. I love your passion and idealism. We have to carefully walk the line between bravely speaking out and saying nothing in order to effectively affect change. Speak too loud and people turn off and don’t hear.

    • Very well written, Mom, but it reflects the same thinking as the policy proposal itself; that is: “Be quiet, accept defeat, hide your principles to avoid confrontation, and hope things get better.” That’s not leadership and it sure as Hell isn’t honest or brave.

  44. Well this is a half measure, and quite honestly does not put to rest the issue that is at the heart of our membership decline. The BSA is NOT a Christian organization, it’s a youth organization, but the youth need adults in places of authority to mentor and guide them, and those adults are just as necessary to the movement as the youth we’re serving. How disappointing that we still consider homosexuality, a genetic trait, to be a perversion. When will this ignorance end BSA? For some reason we’re still sitting on the fence about this issue and will have the argument again and again until we get up the nerve to make things right.

    • Matt, it does not matter what BSA does, the homosexuals will never rest. Just leave the policy alone and maintain the moral standards they have had for over a hundred years and every established religion has set for thousands of years. This moral standard was established for civilized society long ago to maintain society, not for peoples feelings.

      I would be happy if homosexuals created there own youth group and left BSA.

      • Well Glenn, I for one think it’s ok to change, that if we don’t change as a people, a society, a movement, whatever, we are doomed to wither and die. The BSA has had dwindling membership for some decades now, and this change will be of some help. There’s still a lot of change that needs to happen, but this is a minor step. As for the homosexuals never resting, I wouldn’t either if I was treated like a second class citizen just for being. We teach our youth to be respectful, to try and see things from all angles, yet we are obtuse in our senses here. Shameful.

      • This will in no way “help”. Simply by asking the question, BSA doomed itself to a loss of membership one way or the other. Do you honestly think that most people will stay in an organization with whose primary values they disagree? No. They will lose droves. And who they will lose include whole families that drive the local units. Those more traditional families who end up doing a lot of the work. In any case, I would rather have a smaller organization of fine, young, upstanding future leaders who adhere to the promises they make and withstand social pressure than a larger (doubtful, but for your point accepted) organization that is nothing more than a camping club — there are other organizations already in place that serve those populations. Why are they not growing in leaps and bounds? Because Scouts are different — they have a much higher standard. Shame on National for contemplating lowering that standard for money.

      • They do; it’s call Big Brothers. 😉 But seriously, there are other organizations who are “tolerant”. Spiral Scouts is one. It seems to exactly fit the bill of what those supporting the membership change want. But that’s not really what they want — they want all the benefits of BSA that have been built up over 100 years by morally straight people without the work. What should instead be happening is that those who disagree with Scouting’s stated values (“Homosexuality is incompatible with Scouting”) should flock to Sprial Scouts and build that up as an alternative. Everyone wins that way.

      • there are many alternatives to bsa. such as navigators, bpsa, spiral scouts etc and all of which are currently growing faster than the bsa. and dont bash on the camping clubs either unlike the bsa which has been ever regulating simply going camping to the point that many never get to spend time in a true wilderness area the “camping clubs” locally have dozens of possible activities i can choose from every single weekend almost year round.

    • Matt, I wholly disagree that it’s genetic. Especially when you look at the overwhelming majority of the upbringing or sexual imprinting of those who practice homosexuality. Or when people change their practices (both ways). But even if we accept your preposterous claim, feelings and actions are different. The actions are not morally straight.

      The BSA said this outright a few years ago — “Homosexuality is incompatible with Scouting” during the Dale case. Plain and simple.

      • So, what you’re saying is that someone chooses to be discriminated against, verbally abused and harassed, physically assaulted, to lose rights that are in place for everyone else, and constant bullying? Because that sounds like fun to you? Yeah, that’s the life I’d CHOOSE.

        Our BS troop? Muslims, Atheists, Christians, Agnostics, and Pagans..none will leave over this. Our BS troop truly believes in kindness and loving others. By loving others, we don’t punish them for not being like us, we love them and show them respect and fairness. We accept them for the people they are and do not hound them, because you don’t hound people you love and kick them out.

        But I tell you what, it’s the “Christians” like I see on this board that drove me away from the Church, and it also almost kept my children out of BSA until I learned that this troop is a wonderful group of people who learn from one another. Who truly love their neighbor and show them kindness and respect. Our BSA troop is booming. This past Tuesday many more boys joined up. And if you don’t like your little precious to be a part of our society, there are still plenty of churches around here pushing their discrimination, and “loving thy neighbor” by kicking them out and deriding them every chance they get.

      • And when the atheist fills out his eagle application how will he handle the requirement of a letter of recommendation from his religious leader? Forge one? athiest in BSA are already breaking the scout law.

      • The same way many of the other boys handle it, a parent or other figure writes it. We can consider it more of an impetus to discuss their belief with a trusted adult than for us to approve or disapprove of their belief system, or lack of one.

        I’m proud the boys of our troop get an every day appreciation of “love thy neighbor” and kindness and human decency, since we don’t kick people out and harangue them for not being “x”. We’re far more concerned that our boys learn to be good men, and that means being kind, tolerant, and respecting others.

        A good man is a kind man, no matter how much he disagrees with someone. A good man takes care of his family, HELPS others, is charitable, and friendly. A man is not a good man if he calls others names, is hateful, chooses to disallow others over things that are none of his business. A good man does not judge others, by approving or disapproving of their lives. That’s between them and their god, not an imperfect man who himself fails to follow their god’s rules. I believe it says just that in the Christian Bible. We do not want our boys growing up to come on a website and spew hatred and disparagement of others. We want our boys to grow up and show love and respect to all people, regardless of whether they approve of their lives or choices or belief system. Maybe some of us have a far better understanding of the Christian Bible than many of the Christians do.

      • Now that is certainly news to me. Your Council allows a parent to write the recommendation of a Religious leader? That is a liberal Policy. Or another figure you say? Like a fellow Atheist confirms a belief that no power is greater than me? A little narcissistic don’t you think for a “good” and “kind” man to hold such beliefs? But, there should be standards that good and kind man might have to live up to to be accepted and good and kind in a moral society. I think moral is a huge part of an Eagle Scout’s character.

        JCal said: “I’m proud the boys of our troop get an every day appreciation of “love thy neighbor” and kindness and human decency, since we don’t kick people out and harangue them for not being “x”. We’re far more concerned that our boys learn to be good men, and that means being kind, tolerant, and respecting others.”

        So does this Scout have any moral or ethical standards to go with good and kind? Sounds like a Social Worker to me which is fine for the Social Worker and I know many wonderful people who are Social Workers but boys don’t join Scouts to be Social workers, they join to become leaders in our Society. They have to be able to discern good and evil, positive and negative influences and what advances Society. I’d leave the Social work to those trained and gifted to do it. I know many good schools your Scouts could attend.

        JCal said: “A good man is a kind man, no matter how much he disagrees with someone. A good man takes care of his family, HELPS others, is charitable, and friendly. A man is not a good man if he calls others names, is hateful, chooses to disallow others over things that are none of his business.”

        You almost had me there but please refer back to the previous paragraph where I ask “Does this Scouts have any moral or ethical standards to follow? That is necessary to develop great character.

        JCal said: “A good man does not judge others, by approving or disapproving of their lives. That’s between them and their god, not an imperfect man who himself fails to follow their god’s rules.

        Looks a little like you’re judging Mike there. Not being good and kind, tolerant and accepting, little accusatory and judgmental.

        JCal said: I believe it says just that in the Christian Bible. We do not want our boys growing up to come on a website and spew hatred and disparagement of others. We want our boys to grow up and show love and respect to all people, regardless of whether they approve of their lives or choices or belief system. Maybe some of us have a far better understanding of the Christian Bible than many of the Christians do.”

        To this Christian, it sounds like you have no understanding of the Bible at all. Jesus brought a New Testament of promise of an eternal life if you believe in Him and are obedient to His Word which requires adherence to principles and values he displayed and which includes kindness to all human beings. Christ identified several immoral behaviors and followed the Law of Moses given by God. Paul as called by Jesus himself clarified the position of Christianity on homosexuality and it has been posted many times. Christ commands love of all people but respect is earned by demonstrated leadership through a high moral and ethical code. That is what you should be teaching your Scouts in accordance with BSA policy. “Courteous” is a tenet of the Scout Law, not “respectful.” Speaking of no one person or group, some folks have not earned respect and Scouts show be taught how to tell the difference..

      • I’m sorry you’re not familiar with the BSA code. It has allowed for parents or other authority figures that fill the same role as “spiritual advisor”.

        Morals and ethics are personal, not universal. They change and bend like reeds in the wind. It’s a sorry basis for life. A good man is a rational man, who can decide what’s right for himself, when it’s ok to bed and when it’s time to stand tall. Morals change (it was once moral to own slaves, it now is not), but a man with a solid foundation of thinking for himself can decide right or wrong on his own. He isn’t reliant on what is “accepted” practice, and it’s those kinds of men who help us strive toward peace and love of our fellow man. To be honest, I really don’t want my troop to be like those on this page. Teaching boys that it’s ok to treat a group of people like second class citizens, to deride them and call them names and associate them as criminals because of “belief”. I don’t teach my sons to be hateful and rude and call people criminals because they are different from them. I also teach them that since we live in America, we have the freedom to believe and live as we wish and that’s extremely important to me. And my ability to live as I wish is dependent on your ability to do the same. If I don’t respect you and your right to live as you believe, then I don’t respect our country and the principles it was founded on.

      • JCal, its a scary thought to me that you are in Scout leadership somewhere. It wouldn’t be here so I’m not too worried about encountering folks that think like you. You are a free America and have that right, nobody is trying to take it away from you but I sure hope the kids catch on before they adopt your beliefs.

      • Interesting that in your Council a Parent can write a Religious Letter for an Eagle Scout. After research, it appears its a local option. A parent cannot write such a letter in our Council.

        “Someone, such as priest, youth pastor, etc., must write a letter attesting to the scout’s religious beliefs. If the scout does not belong to an organized religion, an individual is to be identified by the Scout who can attest to his religious beliefs and actions. This individual should not be a parent or guardian.”

      • Section 9.0.1.0 The Eagle Scout Rank (Page 50) in the 2011 BSA Advancement Guide:

        References: Must list all six (five if not employed).
        If not affiliated with an organized religion, then
        the parent or guardian provides this reference.

      • Wow, my beliefs are horrifying? So a good man is not kind? He is not charitable or friendly? He does not help others? He does not respect our country and the principles of freedom it embodies? He does not care for his family? He is not a rational, intelligent man who can decide what is wrong or right?

        Or perhaps you mean something about morals or ethics? Perhaps you are not aware that when you go out into the real world that there are many people with differing morals and ethics? Well, there are. While I’m not concerned with our children needing to defend their morals to others, I do require they be able to defend them for themselves in a rational and logical manner that reinforces them. If any moron can poke holes in their morals, then my children are more likely to abandon them in favor of something some other idiot tells them to do. Thus “because a book told me to” is not something I teach my children, because it is easily abandoned in favor of some other book. I teach my children to reason and think and I teach them to base their morals in a strong ground that will stand up to any test. That ground is kindness, love, and respect, and not harming others unless it’s in defense of themselves or others. Pretty horrifying, isn’t it? To care for others, to try to show them kindness and decency and respect? To defend the weak and yourself? Yeah, sure hate to teach those things to kids.

        The funny part is how many times I get told what a good Christian I am…rofl..I’m Pagan. And yes, I take great pride in telling them that.

      • If this rant was directed at me I certainly didn’t say horrifying. Your word. Absolutely disagree with the rest of what you said and as so many on the Left say on here that Christians do not live in the “Real world.” I certainly don’t live in “Your World.” and that is fine for both of us. But, the definition or “Real” I am sure is very different. I don’t care what people do outside Scouting. Do what you like. I just don’t want your views influencing scouting Policy or joining Scouting and not following policy. Works both ways. Is that “Real” enough for you?

      • jCAL- I asked a neutral question regarding how an Atheist or Agnostic person fills out the Eagle form. Below you indicate that your council allows letters from others vouching for the scouts religious beliefs. It does not matter which religion but you indicate it is morally acceptable to lie in this letter and state that the person has beliefs in a higher power when they actually don’t.

        If a scout was identified as lying on the eagle application, every merit badge comes into question along with his overall character.

        I must assume you have never sat on an Eagle board of review as I have.
        If you have I and I am sure others here would love for you to tell us which one it is. It would be interesting what their response would be to your statement.

      • Fred, thesaurus. Horrifying is a synonym of scary. So I didn’t use the exact word…however, I used the same idea. I just like you saying, publicly, over and over and over, how you disapprove of a kind, caring, respectful man who takes care of his family and loves his neighbor and also how scary it is to teach boys to be respectful, caring members of society. As long as I keep saying it in a variety of ways and you keep affirming it shows everyone just how you believe. And that’s far, far more scary. Especially since you refuse to expound on what part is “wrong”. We must assume it’s all of it.

        You don’t live in the real world, the world outside your little system of belief? Do you live in a commune? A hermit perhaps? Do you keep everyone locked up so they aren’t exposed to the ideas of others? It’s a little creepy to think of a man who disagrees with every word I said (so a good man is not kind, charitable..wow) locked up with a bunch of young boys with no access to the world outside of your little troop.

      • Mike, I explained it to you. Btw, an atheist has no belief and an agnostic has a belief but no organized religion. Religion is an organized collection of belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values. Now, while atheists do not have a named religion (Judaism, Hinduism, Baptist, etc), they do generally have a collection of world views and a belief system that relate humanity to spirituality (maybe not always in the way some expect) and yes, even moral values. No one is lying. Religion does not necessitate a belief in a higher power. Some Pagans do not believe in a higher power, but do believe in us achieving a higher state of being, though they define it differently. It is religion, but has no higher power. I’m sure there are others, but I can’t think of them off the top of my head.

      • Think what you like. It doesn’t bother me, I’ve seen what you think and honestly, you thinking badly of me actually makes me feel like a better person.

      • You are correct, there is no conclusive scientific proof that homosexuality is genetic. easily researched. Homosexual activists have spent billions and browbeat thousands and the proof is not there.

      • i have been “discriminated against, verbally abused and harassed, physically assaulted, to lose rights that are in place for everyone else, and constant bullying” due to my time spent in the bsa and no real changes to the policies that hurt me seem to be proposed. there are some great troops around here that actually try to be good scouts and always helpful towards others and generally great to be around but bsa always seems to say that these people who area clearly better than some the bullies bsa desires for various reasons are not worthy of being a scout.

      • don’t get defensive Dewey. You have been slinging insults pretty steady since you started posting. I believe what you say but lashing out at everyone who does not agree with your lifestyle is no answer. “Right of Association” is not discrimination in the sense you mean. My son is an Eagle Scout and I have 16 years in at Council, district and Troop level. They always seem to appreciate my work even at the National level. So, my worth does not rely on your opinion as yours does not rely on mine. We strongly disagree. You are as worthy as anyone but if a person does not meet the membership requirements, that person cannot join Scouting without deceiving themselves and Boy Scouts.

    • I can’t speak to the UK and Australia, but here is some interesting information relating to Canda:

      “In response to an article claiming that Scouts Canada’s population drop was due to becoming inclusive:

      “The author indicates that Scouts Canada lost 50% of its membership once the organization was “forced” to admit gay members. This is incorrect.Scouts Canada peaked in membership in the mid-sixties and went through a long period of steady decline. We’ve invested a tremendous effort in strengthening our organization, and are proud of the fact that we’ve experienced four straight years of growth – it’s the first time that’s happened since 1975.

      There are multiple factors for the drop in membership: The increased number of leisure and athletic options for youth and their parents; The growth of the internet, computer games and social media. Plot Canada’s declining birth rate since 1970 and you have a mirror image of Scouts Canada’s decline in membership. A good percentage of our Groups are sponsored by churches, which have also seen a drop in membership.

      In fact, Scouts Canada has always been an inclusive organization – we simply made a formal policy of it in 2001.

      Regardless of the decision that Boy Scouts of America reaches in this matter, the fact remains that Scouts Canada has always been an inclusive organization, and Scouts Canada is growing.”

      John Petitti, Executive Director – Marketing, Scouts Canada”

      http://www.kansascity.com/2013/04/18/4188581/scouts-must-defend-long-held-convictions.html

    • Don’t know what your link is referring to, but the link takes you to a propaganda page for a policy that is outdated and should have been sunk with Noah’s Ark. Australia isn’t allowed to discriminate, and we have a very successful coed program and the Girl Guides still operate a successful program. Maybe the BSA should take a look at closer look at other Wetern nations who have progressed passed the dark ages

      • David, why? Why do we have to do anything? If we allow girls in the Boy Scouts, then we are no longer the Boy Scouts. Unfortunately, the progressive/liberal sledgehammer of conform or die is being swung toward once was a great organization.

      • Joe,
        I can’t remember exactly when it happened but a family took Boy Scouts Australia to the Federal Court here in Australia and sued on discrimination that girls were excluded from Scouting. It was found (in court), that whilst BP’s attitudes were directed at boys, girls were also doing the patrol system albeit discretely. The courts ruled that whilst there were Girl only groups, that it was no longer appropriate to have male only clubs or female only clubs, so if a female wanted o join then they must be allowed. So to Mae it more nclusive we dropped the “BOY” from Scouts and became Scouts Austalia. The Girl Guides are still Girl Guides, but if you are a boy you are allowed to join them.

        We have very successful co-ed program where both boys and girls do exactly the same thing. On camps they sleep in seperate tents or dorms, males and females (either youth or leaders) are not allowed to sleep in the same ent/dorm, this includes family members. We probably do have gays and lesbians in Scouts Australia but as a leader I not know as its not a need th know in scouts.

        BSA National has to make a ruling either NO GAYS, or GAYS ALLOWED. Then it must make CO’s follow National rules, otherwise you will end up like Scouts Australia, where national says these are the requirements, but you get local commissioners changing policy to suits ther own agenda.

        If the BSA does end up allowing gays to join, then they can’t have a two age policy “If your under 18……..” , “If your over 18……….”. It has to be one or the other.

  45. So an 18 year old who just received his eagle award has to leave the program if he is gay. If we are helping to guide young people toward the future how does this promote the aims & objectives? I think this will the movement. We should be all in and put this behind us. We need to keep moving forward!!

    • Keeping homosexuals out of the leadership of the BSA is progressive toward child protection policies enhancing the youth protection programs of the BSA. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure this out; just a good parent who loves their son and isn’t willing to put him at risk in a troop that’s being led by a homosexual leader.

      • In the executive summary (linked to by Brian in the article) the BSA and its experts conclude that this is not a youth protection issue, either in the area of abuse prevention or in in role modeling.

      • They can say whatever they want to say to appease and try to nit anger homosexual advocates. If you don’t think the survey responses didn’t reflect a strong concern for youth protection from homosexual pedophiles then you’d be foolish. My survey response was all about Yout Protection if homosexual youth or adults are alliwed membership in the BSA. I’ve seen what the effects of child molestation has upon a child; devastating doesn’t begin to describe it. It’s all about Youth Protectio and most people involved in the BSA at every level are parents. What do you think those survey responses said? I think the proposed policy change really does address those responses and in some ways falls short of a perfect reflection of the will of the active BSA membership.

      • There is no evidence to suggest that gays are abusive toward children, in any way (sexually, physically, emotionally, etc.) any more than straights.

      • Matt, ask anyone who is currently practicing homosexuality when their first experience was and with whom. In my experience, it is almost always when they were under 18 with a man over 18. (I worked in San Francisco for a long time, and lived in Laguna Hills, so know many who are in that lifestyle.) Would be interested if your experience was different.

        Again, though, the real problem is not the potential of molestation (frankly, my sons are older and I’m not so concerned about that). The problem is equating the practice of homosexuality with heterosexuality.

      • KS, I’ll answer your questions. I was 20, and my boyfriend at the time was 21. Scandalous, I know. Many of my closest friends are gay, and none of us were raped or molested as kids.

      • I don’t need scientific research and papers to dictate my actions and behavior as a parent. I’ll trust my onstincts on this one. What parent aspires to have tjeir son koin a troop being led by one or a bunch of homosexual men and women? I’m going to put the number somewhere close to the none level. So pass a policy inclusive of leadership that parents don’t want and destroy the BSA in due time. Without boys in the troop it would just be another homosexual socual club. Homosexuals don’t need the BSA to hjave those; their in every community already.

    • this proposed policy will only continue the dadt policy as anyone who has any intention of staying in scouting beyond their 18th birthday would not feel safe being who they are. having to stay in the closet for essentially all of your childhood because of outdated and discriminatory policies has a detrimental effect on any young mans life and will forever impact their relationships with others and themselves.

  46. I’ve been a leader in Scouting since my son was five. He is an Eagle Scout and is now an adult leader in Scouting. My youngest son will be an Eagle Scout in the next month. If this new policy is passed, I will have to leave Scouting, as will my sons. If you don’t have a problem with your son being in the same tent with an openly gay Scout, good for you, that is your choice. This will not stop the radical gays from harassing Scouting, this is only the beginning. The barn door will be open! ‘God’ will be taken out of the oath, some openly gay Scouts will demand to wear dresses, and transgender girls will want to join Cub and Boy Scouts. It won’t happen over night, but it will happen. The BSA will still be around, but it will never be the same!

    • I agree with what the crystal ball is revealing to you Jim. It doesn’t take a wild imagination to think of how changing the membership policy in this way is going to cause tremendous problems in the BSA. Most of the burden will be felt by the adult leaders on the front line who will be responsible for addressing all the homosexual issues that come up. The problem now is that they’ll be facing lawsuits of discrimnation etc. regardless of how they handle any issue involving a homosexual boy scout. When that first molestation or worse of a younger scout occurs by an older openly homosexual boy scout the media will be sure to completely destroy the BSA for having made the decision to allow homosexuals to become members of the BSA. The scoutmaster will be the idiot and the molested boy will suffer the remainder of his life with the scars of a policy that allowed all of it to happen. Tragedy will always be used as a word to describe what happened and the word will never carry enough weight to truly describe what will have taken place. It just isn’t an issue a Boy Scout Leader should have to be dealing with along with all the other issues he has to deal with. Leave the Policy alone!!! It isn’t broken!!!

    • HAHA Jim this is ridiculous in my opinion. You simply cannot believe any of what you just typed?
      ..gay scouts will demand to wear dresses? Seriously? OMG this is hilarious.

    • bsa hasnt been the same since it decided to allow charted organizations power over the scout program and its policies. if you feel that your son cant tent with his friend anymore just because hes gay then he should start by looking for a new father. one who isnt so closed minded as to expect that just because someone is gay doesn’t mean they have any sexual interest at all in some particular person.

      • Dewey is on a roll. But, as we recently saw on PMSNBC, our children are not ours, they are Community playthings. Stay strong Jim. You are a good father and raised two fine sons I am sure. Not sure is Dewey is a Dad, Scout just or Creeper on this list.

      • Dewey, how can you be a Scout? Do you just pretend that you don’t know that BSA has stated that homosexuality is incompatible with Scouting? That’s not honest.

      • then why have gender separation in tents for Explorers? As you note below you are a scout. Come back and post in 40 years when you have matured as your comment suggesting his sons need a new father was very uncalled for and unworthy of a scout.

      • gender separation in tenting is done for the sake of modesty and privacy and is a reflection of current cultural views. for example assume you go camping with a group of friends – mixed genders – typically males and females will sleep separately unless a pair happens to be in a relationship.

    • Contrary to what you may believe, but many of us gays are quite religious. I am a communion server at my church, which is home to many gay couples and their children. I support a policy change so that i can give back to Scouting, not as part of some plan to expel belief in God from the Scouts. Also, I’ve never worn a dress, nor has my husband, to my knowledge.

      • I don’t think the BSA has a Pastafarian badge yet, Carter. But seriously, it is completely consistent for the BSA to insist on “Duty to God” and still hold homosexuality to be antithetical to their beliefs – right up until someone claims a religious obligation to be gay. That would be a short-lived problem anyway, no doubt; after all, a religious obligation to be gay would just be a slow-motion Guyana.

      • The religious obligation many of our young people struggle with, Bob, is not an obligation to be gay, but an obligation to treat all the youth in their church equally, including the gay youth. It is a real struggle, a real cognitive dissonance or crisis of faith, for many youth, including most of the Venturers who participated in our recent Wood Badge course and youth on the staff of our camps — not just my own children.

  47. Okay, having located the entire proposed resolution, including the sections dealing with leadership, I can see that they have attempted to clarify the “avowed” section of the adult leadership policy. Added is note that this ban includes, indirectly, other “avowed” actions besides being Gay. It also specifically notes that political and similar platforms are not acceptable within the organization, and are grounds for dismissal or non acceptance as an adult leader. Would still prefer that wording specifically acknowledge the power of the CO to grant said leadership.

    So, that language IS an improvement on what is currently in place, but still, in my view, does not really completely address the problem. Reality is likely that no matter what is decided, the more radical attack dogs of the Gay Movement will not be satisfied.

    • anything produced by the FRC a known hate organization shouldn’t be looked upon a guidance in our scouting decisions. and it should be noted that bsa has been loosing members at only a slightly slower percentage than canada/uk.

  48. I just don’t understand why it’s an issue that should be addressed. Scouting is a youth program and sexual orientation is irrelevant. Don’t Ask – Don’t Tell is much more appropriate than singling out a group and stating we won’t discriminate against that group. I am a Scout Leader and I could care less whether Johnny is homosexual or for that matter if his father is… anyone, heterosexual or homosexual that participates in sexual discussions or actions needs removed from the event – and that includes married adults. Rather than singling out a group, why not drop all of the special interests and state that Boy Scouts of America does not discriminate against anyone except those violating the Oath and the Law… if some prejudiced Scout Leader decides to use his/her own interpretation to exclude an individual then remove that leader from the organization.

    • Unfortunately, Crispy, there are many in the BSA family who do not have the same interpretation of the Oath and Law…

      • Do the rules for posting here truly allow personal attacks like this? I am making every effort to be courteous to the people saying hateful things about me here. Is SR truly allowed to call me a pervert?

      • Carter, I don’t think the moderator will prevent name-calling. But it is certainly against the code to which we all subscribe: helpful, friendly, courteous, kind. Many people in this discussion can disagree without resorting to abuse, but not all. The current Boy Scout handbook gives a lot of attention to the ways in which we should treat others, and I don’t think many of us would find the kind of abusive language to which you have been subjected acceptable in our units. It certainly would not be acceptable in any unit, community organization, school, church, or living room I frequent.

    • the dadt policy as is enforced in the bsa makes sexual relevant when it need not be. we dont join scouting to be sexual active. we join it because its an outdoor organization and what we might choose to do outside of scouting should have no impact at all on out participating in bsa.

      • Dewey, I think you over-reached a little there. You might want to take that one back or is that what you really believe?

        “what we might choose to do outside of scouting should have no impact at all on out participating in bsa.”

        Its a character education organization as well. So, you have to have a desire for moral character, do you not?

  49. So this would lift the ban on gay youth, but keeps it for adults. What’s their message? It’s okay to be gay as long as you grow out of it.

    • there are some who believe that you will grow out of it or that you really arent capable of making up your mind yet.

  50. So wait.. it’s okay to be boyscout that is homosexual/heterosexual/asexual/transgender up until the age of 17 and then if your not heterosexual at the age of 18 you need to drop out of scouting?

    • No, confused. It’s the first step. Once that first step is there, then the other policies will change. It always starts that way.

  51. What an ridiculous youth membership policy. To even include youth sexual orientation in a youth organizations membership policy strikes me as a wrongful statement in itself; implies that sexuality & sexual prefrenceis is a high priority in scouting. Now when a youth chooses to verbally express their sexual preference what’s a leader to do with that information when it comes time to assign bunkmates, shower times etc.? Throws it right in the lap of the front line leaders if you ask me. The only option for the adult leaders will be to be somebody’s bad guy I guess. Leave the Policy alone and whoever chooses to leave can choose to leave, scouting is what it is; it doesn’t have to be for everyone. If your under 18 and feel you have to make a statement of your sexual preference and choose to have that preference define who you are that everyone needs to know then I really don’t think scouting is for you anyway; why would you even want to join with an attitude like that?

    And if this policy is changed then when the first boy is molested or worse by a homosexual scout who has declared his homosexuality to all the members of the troop will the media be the first ones in line to say I told you so BSA; you shoulda never changed your policy. Yep! they sure will. That’s the way they operate; both sides of every issue to achieve the maximum shock value and controversy.

    This policy change will be a disaster for the BSA in the long run. Only sets the stage for tremendous problems for scoutmasters and other leaders on the front lines of scouting. Leave those volunteer leaders to deal with all the real problems this policy change will cause while the fat cats on the paid rolls of scouting collect hugh bonuses or at least a continuation of their $400K salaries for having attempted to appease their beloved benefactors who don’t even have youth protection as their number one priority. Maybe scouting is off course with its true mission and the original intent of the spirit of its founders? YES!

  52. I hope this isn’t approved. Our son loves Scouting, but we absolutely can not stand with an organization that compromises Biblical morality under political pressure. God will provide an alternative for our family. How can you hold scouts to the part of the oath that promises to be “morally straight” and yet throw all morality out of the window in the same breath?

    • M, the Bible is not a Scouting guidebook. Many in the BSA family do follow it, although certainly not all, since we are open to all faiths. Even among those who do follow the Bible, not all agree on how to interpret scripture.

    • biblical morality has no place in scouting, its only place is your own particular church.

      • dewey tell that to Baden Powell here is some of his quotes “No man can be really good, if he doesn’t believe in God and he doesn’t follow His laws. This is why all Scouts must have a religion”.
        (Scouting for Boys, 1908)
        “Scouting has been described as “a new religion”. It’s not, of course, a new religion: it’s just the application to religious formation of the principle now accepted in non-religious formation, i.e. to point out a precise aim to the boy and give him the way to learn and practice by himself” [Quoted in Taccuino, a collection of B-P’s writings and essays published in Italy. Dated January 1912]
        “There is no religious side to the [Scout] Movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is on becoming aware of God and His Service”
        (Headquarter’s Gazette – November 1920)
        “By Religion I mean not just a formal homage tributed to a Divinity, but a deeper akcnowledgment of God as a Being perpetually inside and around us, and the consequent higher level of thought and action in His service”
        “Scout Activities are the means by which you can lead the most accomplished street urchin to nobler feelings, and have the faith in God start in him”
        (Aids to Scoutmastership, 1919)
        “Love of God, love of your neighbour and respect of oneself as God’s servant are the basis for any form of religion”
        “Many difficulties may arise while defining religious formation in a Movement such as ours, where many religions coexist; so, the details of the various forms of expressing the duty to God must be left to thoses responsibles of each single association. We insist however on observance and practice of that form of religion the boys profess”
        “Nowadays the actions of a large part of youths are guided just in a small part by religious convictions. That can be attributed for the most to the fact that in the boy’s religious formation the worry was on teaching instead of educating”.
        “If you really wish to find the way towards success, i.e. your happiness, you must give a religious base to your life. It’s not simply attending church or knowing history or comprehend theology. Many men are sincerely religious almost without knowing it or having studied these things. Religion, briefly explained, means: First: know who God is Second: use to the best the life He gave us, and do what He expects from us. This means mostly doing something for the others.”
        (Rovering to Success, 1922)

  53. Under this proposed resolution, if I am a youth member can I be a practicing homosexual (i.e., behavior) or just have homosexual preferences/orientation (i.e. ideations)?

    While the above delineation might not make sense to some, it is a critical difference for those practicing traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs.

    Reading the full resolution, it seems like there are still many vagaries and unanswered questions of enforcement.

    • Under the proposed change, if a youth were gay and out (openly avowed, etc) they would be welcomed. The ‘practice’ is not to be done at scouting events, outings, etc straight or gay as it would be considered inappropriate behavior.

      • Sorry to parse words, but if “out” or “avowed” is equal to practicing/engaging in homosexual behavior (even outside Scouting events) that doesn’t jive with traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs.

        Separately, I don’t see how the B.S.A. can equate and/or say that heterosexual relationships are not permitted in Scouting. I may be incorrect, but aren’t Venturing members allowed to date (say 16-yr.-old with same age opposite sex) currently?

        It seems that the B.S.A. wants to be Pontius Pilot despite it’s traditional Judeo-Christian founding principles and ideals.

        My initial read seemed to give me hope that a compromise that a practicing Catholic could follow was reached. However, the more I process the text, I’m thinking this will not pass muster.

      • John, I think that the BSA has tried to cover their bases on this one. As I read the entire resolution, it seems to me what it is saying is that one’s sexual orientation is not relevant to Scouting. I goes on to say that youth engaging in sexual activity (heterosexual or homosexual) is not in keeping with Scouting values. For youth who are aware of their attraction to the same sex, this would mean that they don’t have to hide who they are dating (“open” or “avowed”) but that we would not expect them to engage in sexual behavior. I believe that most denominations are open to individuals with homosexual attractions as long as they remain celibate.

  54. I guess BSA couldn’t find a compromise so they decided to piss everyone off. BSA was a great organization at one time. Sad to see BSA destroy itself over an issue that never had anything to do with Scouting.

  55. What was wrong with BSA’s 1984 policy on this issue?

    “Education for sexuality belongs in the home… Scouters should reinforce rather than contradict what is being taught in the family and by the youth’s religious leaders” BSA Statement on Human Sexuality, 1984

    If BSA had stuck to this policy, it never would have gotten into this mess.

    • The issue of the current proposed resolution is not directly about what parents/care-givers are teaching children in their homes, it is about who can be a member of the BSA. Currently, and hopefully going forward, persons who are avowed (practicing) homosexuals may not be members. The SCOTUS has already ruled that the BSA has the right to define its membership requirements–even related to kindred virtues per our Congressional charter. The question now is if the voting members of the National Council have the courage to preserve the BSA’s founding kindred virtues or just vote based on what some say is the popular societal belief at the moment–do they?

      • The currently policy was not around during the “founding”. BSA screwed it up in the 80s when they added it.

      • So…persons practicing homosexuality were welcomed into Scouting at it’s founding then changed?

      • The SCOTUS decision was based on the fact that BSA has a message regarding homosexuality that it wants to teach to boys. How dare BSA teach something about homosexuality to boys that directly contradicts the teachings of the boy’s parents and clergy?

        Yes, I know BSA has a right to do so. But how dare they?

      • BSA is doing that right now by forcing folks out, when what my clergy and what I teach my son directly contradicts that.

      • BSA is not a Church. So many of you say religious beliefs have nothing to do with Scouts and here is one that say they do. Y’all need to be consistent.

        Current Scouting Policy is compatible with the Principles, values and ideals of my Church so I support the current Policy and would not support the Program if it did not.

      • Fred, the reason that people bring their religious beliefs into the discussion is because BSA claims to be absolutely nonsectarian, and to require Scouts to respect the beliefs of others. They are giving examples of faiths that they feel are not being treated fairly, in an absolutely nonsectarian manner. That’s not an inconsistency; it’s evidence for the statement that BSA is supposed to be absolutely nonsectarian and currently may not actually be so.

      • Fred, the argument is that the BSA does not subscribe to any particular religion, as it is a non-sectarian organization. Therefore, to adopt any particular aspects of one faith over another is unfair to the religion that is excluded. There hasn’t been any inconsistency in this argument that I have seen.

      • Your statement is not factual. If BSA decided to be totally Christian, they could do that. They can pick and choose the values the organization follows. That is their right. No other religion or Group should not be offended unless they want to be which they are in the case of homosexuals.

        BSA policies support the belief that homosexuality is incompatible with Scouting and the Supreme Court has said in a settled case that the BSA can take that position. You don’t even have to get into the discussion that homosexuality is immoral. I and my Church, parents and Scouts all believe that it is and don’t want to be around that behavior and under the Constitution can choose not to associate. They’re good people, every one of them and we will continue to support the local policy.

      • Fred, it is just fine for you and your scout parents to feel that homosexuality is immoral. It is also just fine for me and my fellow parents to feel that it is not immoral. The difference is, that I am not trying to exclude anyone from scouting based on my morality. I am not trying to force my morality on anyone else. You are still perfectly welcome to your beliefs. Where the anti gay argument breaks down is that those individuals that wish to exclude others based on their own moral and religious values really don’t have any right to impose their own moral and religious values on others that don’t hold the same moral and religious values.

      • I repeat for Beth on morally straight: “Since Boys Scout policy says homosexuality is incompatible with Scouting, we can rest assured it does not include being homosexual.”

      • It is contradictory for the BSA to state that homosexuality is incompatible with scouting, when they claim to also be nonsectarian. Furthermore, this new policy proposal clearly states that the BSA does not have an agenda that pertains to sexual orientation at all.

      • Until it is changed, this is the official policy. A person does not have to be Christian to think homosexuality is immoral.

        The proposed policy until approved is not official policy and BSA said there would be no changes in existing policy if the resolution is defeated..

      • That approach ends up rather circular, Fred. We consider changing the policy; we can’t because it wouldn’t be morally straight. How do we know it’s not morally straight? Because the policy says so. Why can’t we change the policy? Because it wouldn’t be morally straight…. I understand that *your* argument, personally, is not that BSA should adhere to conservative Christian standards; it is that the current policy is compatible with your CO’s standards, and so you think it is best for all if it stays there. That’s a good, straightforward defense founded in impact on BSA nationally and locally. But it is not strengthened by a fallacious circularity, really.

      • Karen, I was actually responding to the question as to what “morally straight” is under Scouting Policy and in the Scout Oath. Since homosexuality is incompatible with Scouting, a homosexual Scout cannot be “morally straight” in accordance with the Scout law

        Your posting on my defense as to why I think the current policy should be sustained is correct.

        I don’t encourage you to keep trying to change the Policy. The effort by its definition brings sexuality into Scouting. It is your right and I would not try to limit that right. I’ll just keep opposing it..

  56. So we tell an Eagle Scout that you can be a scout but when you turn 18 you’re out because you can’t be a gay adult???? Now this is discrimination within the organization itself. If this is not resolved correctly I and several will be resigning. Come on guys you’re half there!!! Stop the crazy, stop the discrimination. Follow the example of our founding fathers. Don’t try this ‘lets try to please everyone by coming up with a ridiculous compromise.’

  57. Did anyone else notice that “THE LARGEST” CO’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints seems to have NOT been counted in this analysis… “The Chartered Organization Study Group was charged with listening to the voice of the national-level leadership in the BSA’s major chartered organizations. The BA contacted 64 religious chartered organizations and 54 nonreligious chartered organizations. The BA’s largest chartered organization, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is not included in these totals”

    It seems that if you want to make a decision shouldn’t you consider the opinion of your LARGEST member organization?

    • It is my understanding that the LDS church is NOT infavor of changing the BSA policy.

      • How do you know this? The LDS church allows openly gay adults “to enjoy full fellowship in the church, which includes holding the priesthood, carrying out callings, and attending the temple” http://www.mormonsandgays.org

        Why wouldn’t the LDS allow its adult members in good standing to lead a BSA troop?

      • cw, check that. They do not allow UNREPETENT people with feelings toward the same gender to hold such positions. They do recognize that there are people who have feelings that they are struggling with, and those who do not currently PRACTICE homosexuality may enjoy full fellowship.

      • And so, KS, how is this any different? The wording of the resolution clearly states that sexual conduct by youth is contracy to Scouting virtues. That means we are talking about attraction rather than sexual acts.

      • Because, Karen, the LDS church does not attempt to equate homosexuality as simply an alternative. It recognizes it as aberrant.

      • cwgmpls said: How do you know this? The LDS church allows openly gay adults “to enjoy full fellowship in the church, which includes holding the priesthood, carrying out callings, and attending the temple” http://www.mormonsandgays.org
        ====================

        I don’t think you fully understand what the LDS church believes on the matter. the fundamental principle is chastity. That is there is no sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage and marriage is between a man and a woman. If you can live the law chastity then you are in full fellowship. You can have same gender attraction (gay) and be a member in full fellowship so long as you abide the law of chastity. The law of chastity applies to both opposite gender attraction and same gender attraction. If a person has same gender attraction and wish to remain in full fellowship they have two options: 1) remain celibate their entire lives or 2) marry a person of the opposite gender. Mature people understand that sex is just a small part of the marital relationship. the problem with homosexuality is the people defines themselves by who they have sex with and not what they are as individuals.

        http://northstarlds.org/blog/2013/04/give-back-support-hope-save-lives/

      • What you have explained, Steve, was my personal understanding of the position of the LDS church on homosexuality. In that case, why would a youth with same sex attraction who is celibate not be worthy of the scouting program? They would be welcome in the church, so why not this aspect of their youth group?

        As far as homosexuals defining who they are by who they are attracted to… It is only a part of who they are. They are also defined by what they do for a living, what their hobbies are, what their beliefs and values are. There is much more to their identity than who they sleep with. I think others focus on that aspect of their being more than they themselves do.

      • Beth I will explain to you the present policies of the LDS Church. The Church will not except homosexuals that are sexual active in a same sex activity to become or remain a member of the LDS Church they would not qualify for baptism. The homosexuals must except the teachings of God and his son Jesus Christ. There is a repentance process in the Church that allows homosexuals to be converted to a Christ like life but it doe’s not allow the homosexual to remain homosexual forever in the Church. The Church promotes and encourages all its youth to participate in Scouting and its present values that compliment the Aaronic Priesthood that they hold. It will enhance the youth to prepare to and serve an honorable two year mission for the Church beginning at 18 yrs of age. Beth there is no place for the homosexual in the Scouting program in the Church as it is not consistant with the values that are in many ways the same as the BSA in its present form. I hope this will clear up misconceptions that are being stated on this forum. Sincerely, Trenton Spears LDS Scoutmaster.

      • Trenton, that appears to be exactly what I said. A person with same sex attraction who is celibate is not sexually active, and so, can be a member in good standing in the LDS church. I have stated this several times, and you continue to try to ‘clear up the misconceptions.’ We are saying the same thing. So what is the misconception?

      • Beth you are stating the a homosexual scout who remains sexual inactive should be allowed into the scouting program in the LDS Church I agree to this reasoning however the homosexual youth must understand that they at some point must repent of his choice of homosexuallity to become a worthy member of the LDS Church. What is the point of belonging to a Church that will use all its resources to change the choice of ones convictions if it conflicts with the Churches doctrine. Sincerely, Trenton

      • I concur with what steve says. I spent a weekend IOLT with a bunch of LDS guys and that was their position. No change to policy or at least in a leadership/role model role.

        So many pro gay are claiming the anti position is regarding pedophilia but it is about morality choice and remodeling..

      • Mike here is the position of the LDS Church on homosexual membership. First to be baptized in the Church the homosexual cannot practice the sexual act of homosexuality and must repent the sin of homosexuality sex or they will not be baptized. Second homosexuals like all other members must remain faithful to the covenant they made at baptizim to remain a member of the Church. So Mike and all others that claim that the LDS Church openly excepts sexualty active homosexuals is not true my comments are the conditions of homosexual membership and there are no other plans to allow any other type of conditions at this time. The mission of the Church is to baptize and convert an individual to the teachings of God and his son Jesus Christ . From my understanding there is no way that acting homosexual can be a worthy member of the LDS Church to participate in its leadership callings including Scouting. So Mike the LDS Church postion is the same as the present policy of the BSA and no acting homosexual can be a Scout member. Sincerely, Trenton Spears
        Scoutmaster in the LDS Church.

      • Trenton-Yes, to clarify-That is my understanding too regarding LDS. Another way to look at it is whether one is gay by gene or by choice, to act on those urges is the immoral act just as it would be immoral for me to have an affair as a married man. We all have free-will.

      • What people fail to realize that having sex is a behavior choice regardless if you are straight or gay. Who you have sex with is a choice. When you have sex is a choice. How you have sex is a choice. Having sex is not a requirement of life.

      • Beth I understand what you are saying.

        The reality is that sex does not belong in BSA. PERIOD.

        I realize that there are many people with same gender attraction or are homosexuals that don’t define their lives by their sexual orientation, but my experience is that the ones out front that are pushing this are all about defining themselves with whom they have sex with.

        Their sexual orientation is their identity.

      • >> The reality is that sex does not belong in BSA. PERIOD.
        Right. So get *your* mind out of *their* pants.

        Being homosexual does NOT mean people are bent on sex with children, of their own sex or otherwise. Being a PEDOPHILE does. “Homosexual” does NOT equal “pedophile”.

        I’ve had far more concerns about parents or guardians who are angry people than I’ve ever had with the folks who I knew or suspected were gay. I’ve had one reportable incident from an angry boyfriend of a mom. Another near miss from a dad who was angry with Troop leadership and was going to take it out on a Scout (not his son). Then there were the not-married-to-each other mom & dad who thought a Scout outing was the perfect place for wine with dinner. The three moms of one of my now-Eagle Scouts? Nothing but support.

      • Mwhtie said: “It is my understanding that the LDS church is NOT infavor of changing the BSA policy.”

        ==========

        The LDS church has made no statement on the matter. Theay are waiting to see what the outcome will be.

        It really doesn’t matter to them because back in 2000 they made preparations as to what they would do depending on the out come of Dale. The LDS church does not need BSA. They have long supported BSA since they have common core values. Should BSA change their core values, I would not be surprised if they withdrew from BSA along with their funding and leadership.

    • They were certainly asked, they have not offered an opinion. If they leave the organization, they will effectively take 1/2 the Western Region with them. I have mixed feelings about this. I have many LDS friends through Scouting, and most of them are very accepting of gays.

      • So, it seems task #1, before considering any changes in policy, BSA should figure out how to survive as an organization without being tied to one, specific church.

        BSA is, at its foundation, non-sectarian. It is very unhealthy for any non-sectarian group to be completely dependent on one, single, sect for its survival.

        BSA owns probably the most valuable youth development brand in the country. Get some smart business people on board, who know how to turn a valuable brand into a viable organization, without relying on one church for its survival. Then, after that is taken care of, start addressing sexuality policies.

        With a brand like BSA, it won’t be hard to do with the right management.

        Return BSA to its non-sectarian roots, and it will be just fine. It is still not too late

      • i would definitely have to agree with all that you have stated. the mormons sadly do have near absolute power over the bsa. they might have little active presence in the northeast but still a bunch of guys in suits in texas are allowed to determine how we think, and act here. all scouts/scouters need to think of why their church should have any say in how the organization is run. it is not their program and troops can run themselves entirely without a cor.

    • It is my understand, mwhtie, that the LDS church will separate itself should the new policy go into practice. But I am not LDS and just going off what friends have told me. I do agree that they should have included them, as most of our unpaid council leaders are LDS. (Wondering if that is the same in other councils? I think it’s about 75% here.)

      • i have heard the same from Leaders in LDS I know. They will have an organization ready to go June 1 for their youth. Southern Baptist Convention while consisting of autonomous Churches have said they will surrender their Charter, including mine.

      • your church shouldn’t be the one making decisions about bsa. if the lds wants to control the policies of a youth program than it should only be their own that they have the power over. the bsa was originally founded on secular principles by a christian man. by caving to particular religions who have undue influence over the bsa it has transformed from its foundation to be open to all boys. and increasingly majority of the population realizes that what bsa preaches is hate and while this might be an issue that only directly affects 5-10% of the population and indirectly somewhat more its not keeping with what most other countries have since realized that all men are created equal and all should be treated equally.

      • If, under the current policies, the BSA teaches hate, then I’m all in–hate for sin, not the sinner; hate for the loss of the concept of sin and shame; hate for moral relativism; hate for hedonism; hate for a culture of death. Currently, the BSA is a pillar for a safe house of good and virtue. If the policy changes to accept persons practicing homosexuality, the BSA I’m afraid simply becomes a dandelion seed floating in whichever direction the societal winds blow.

        “The truth is not always the same as the majority decision.” –Pope John Paul II

      • Interesting, my related reply received 3 “thumbs down” votes as of this writing. So, what do the down-voters stand for? I can only presume the opposite of what is stated in my post.

      • oogie Your comments on the LDS Church should leave the BSA is very small minded. In my Council the LDS area very large portion of the membership and the Council would struggle if they were to leave. I can assure you this is the case in many councils across this great nation. oogie I don’t know what experiance you have with the LDS Scout members but your comments are not reflective of the views of traditional Scouting that have been the basis of its success for the last 103 years. The LDS Church became a part of the BSA in 1913 this year is the hundred year anniversary of the LDS Church participation in Scouting. I hope that the LDS Church will have another 100 years as members of the BSA. Trenton Spears Bakersfield, CA

      • The LDS church was allowed into Scouting 103 years ago because other churches did not force their teachings on the LDS church. The least thing LDS could do at this point is return the favor, and not try to override the religious teachings of other Scouts at this time.

        Or, if they do insist on asserting their own teachings on non-Mormon Scouts, please go away and make their own youth club. That would be the trustworthy, reverent thing to do.

      • cwgmpls. Where do you get your information do you make it up as you go along. First the LDS Church joined the BSA in 1913 not 1910 making 2013 the one hundred year anniversary of the LDS Church in Scouting. Second the LDS has never tried to influence the BSA or any scout program including other churches {other than its own program} its policies on scouting. The contributions to scouting have been a very positive and most other non Mormon organizations have a very good relationship with the LDS Church and have been very supportive of the LDS efforts to improve scouting in all of their participation in BSA programs. I know that some in scouting are trying to downplay the LDS Church position in the matter of active homosexuals in the Church and Scouting. The LDS Church along with many other Church’s has voiced its commitment to support the ban on active homosexuals in the BSA program and will certainly will always be a advocate to keep the current policy of the BSA as it is. cwgmpls I can assure you that the LDS has never been or never will be an obstacle to scouting at its present state. You will not find a more loyal supporter for the BSA than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter – Day Saints. cwgmpls please be more observant to the issues that have a message based on truth rather than misinformation. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • Let the LDS go if they want to go. With the amount of money the LDS church currently spends on Scouting, they can easily afford to build their own youth program for their church.

        The BSA is nonsectarian, by definition. Having a single religious sect, by itself, determine BSA moral teaching is a violation of the founding principles of BSA.

        If LDS wants to force a specific teaching on BSA, it would be better for LDS, and BSA, if LDS would go their own way with their own youth organization.

      • So much for showing reverence to religions like Baden Powell has said si at the heart of scouting.

        CWGMPLS you are not showing scout spirit in your remarks regarding the LDS church.

      • What is irreverent about expecting a church to abide by BSA’s strict, nonsectarian policy? All churches are free to practice their faith. But not church is free to violate core BSA principles.

      • “No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have a religion….Religion seems a very simple thing: First: Love and Serve God. Second: Love and serve your neighbour.” – Baden Powell (Scouting For Boys, 1908)

        “Development of outlook naturally begins with a respect for God, which we may best term “Reverence. Reverence to God and reverence for one’s neighbour and reverence for oneself as a servant of God, is the basis of every form of religion. The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. ” Baden Powell

        You were saying?

      • Thanks for the posts Steve. Exactly! Amazing what some people will do to try to change facts to serve their selfish purpose and selfish agendas. There’s nothing wrong with a rich tradition and building on the foundation blocks Powell and others have laid out for scouting over the years. Nothing wrong with aspiring to live a life to a high standard in spite of obstacles that might have been laid in your path.

      • What I find amazing that someone give a thumbs down to Baden Powell’s own words on reverence.

      • “You were saying?”

        I was saying a boy’s religion is defined by his family and by other organizations with which the boy is connected. Not by BSA. It is a violation of BSA’s nonsectarian principles for BSA to impose matters of religious doctrine onto all Scouts. Religious teachings are to come from the home and place of worship, not from BSA.

        “The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.” — BSA Declaration of Religious Principles, 1976.

        Churches active in BSA violate BSA’s Declaration of Religious Principles when they try to make their church doctrine a matter of BSA national policy.

        And I didn’t tumbs-down Baden Powell. I agree with him completely.

      • cwgmpls said: “Let the LDS go if they want to go. With the amount of money the LDS church currently spends on Scouting, they can easily afford to build their own youth program for their church.

        ..

        If LDS wants to force a specific teaching on BSA, it would be better for LDS, and BSA, if LDS would go their own way with their own youth organization.

        ===============

        This is irreverent of the religion and I used Baden Powell’s statements on the subject that you were not being reverent. I was trying to give you an opportunity to recant your irreverent remarks that were not in harmony with scouting. It saddens me that you chose not to.

        But since you bring it up, the LDS church has been involved with scouting for 100 years. Baden Powell was well aware of this. and had no problems with scouting associating with BSA. So why is that you require the LDS church to leave when Baden Powell sanctioned the relationship between BSA and the LDS church 100 years ago and did not complain about it through out his life time? You want them to leave and start their own scouting organization but you are unwilling to suggest that homosexuals go and start their own scouting organization when they are the relative newcomers to the game.

        Does that make sense?

      • Steve thank you for a clear and truthful message about Baden Powell and the LDS Church on the beginning of the Scout Program for the Church in 1913.The reason the LDS Church joined the BSA was that the program was compatible and consistant with the Church’s doctrine otherwise the Church would have formed its own youth organization. There have been unwarrented and misinformation about the LDS Church’s role in scouting. If those opposed to the Church would do truthful research and went by the Scout Oath and Law they would realize the many contributions that the Church has done for the BSA. I know that every Council in the United States has depended on the LDS Churches along with other many volunteers all over this nation’s role for their support. Any talk of the LDS Church should leave the BSA is nothing more than ignorance or pure lack of respect for the BSA program and its needs. Steve I must say this the only thing wrong with the Boy Scouts is there is not enough Volunteers like you. Thank you for supporting the truth Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • What are you talking about? Baden Powell never had anything to do with running BSA. Powell founded Boy Scouts in England. BSA was founded by W. D. Boyce, an acquaintance of Powell’s. Even if Baden Powell had an opinion about the LDS church, he certainly wouldn’t be in a position to decide BSA policies.

        You are right that BSA was very receptive to LDS joining BSA in 1913. LDS can thank BSA’s strict non-sectarian policy for that. In 1913, almost no Protestants or Catholics would have considered the LDS church a Christian church. The LDS church was welcomed into BSA nonetheless, even though its teachings were outside the religious norms of the time.

        Considering the history, the LDS church should be the strongest advocate for BSA’s nonsectarian policy, and should spend its energy defending that policy, rather than subverting it by advocating imposing conservative Christian doctrine into national BSA policy.

      • There is nothing irreverent about suggesting that a church that wants to break BSA’s founding principles would be better off outside of BSA.

      • Just took OLT and 1/2 the adults there taking the class were LDS. I am not but why would you suggest the only segment growing in BSA should leave. I have not experienced them imposing their beliefs on scouting except that they offered a Fri/Sat training along with the Sat/Sun training to accommodate LDS. This enabled me to attend our Sunday Scout meal and participate in an Eagle ceremony that followed it.

        Remove LDS and insert Homosexual and this conversation would have read similar… just different authors.

      • ” I am not but why would you suggest the only segment growing in BSA should leave. ”

        Because LDS is causing BSA to violate BSA’s policy of being strictly nonsectarian. LDS is forcing BSA to adopt policies which accommodate the beliefs of the LDS church, but contradict teachings of other religions. This is contrary to BSA’s tradition, which is to never adopt a teaching which violates the moral teachings of an established religion.

        Remove all instruction about sexuality, straight or gay, from BSA altogether. BSA will then not contradict any religion, and BSA can return to its nonsectarian roots.

      • then continue to fight or eventually lds will be so far in the majority that there will be no difference between lds and bsa policies.

      • dewey. Why are you so negative on the LDS Church they do a great service to the BSA all over this Nation the same as many other organizations and Churches. Please check the facts they use their talents and spend many hours and money supporting the local Council. They are huge donors to Friends of Scouting. Their volunteers efforts are second to none. When our council was in financial trouble and almost had to merge with another Council the LDS Church stepped up and helped made sure we could keep a local Council that had been in Kern County for over 80 years. I am LDS and I volunteer many hours and devote my time to Council projects and Camping needs. The LDS Leaders provide staffing for Camporall’s, Camporees, Woodbadge, National Jamborees, and Council Traing Days. Staffing and providing labor to our local Boy Scout Camp projects at Lake Huntington near Fresno, California. All this is volunteer time and the Local Council appreciates all that we do. So give us a break and stop making up negatives that simply are not true. You could use a little time reciting the Scout Oath and the Scout Law it is a great influence in my life. Sincerely Trenton Spears, Scoutmaster Troop 144 Bakersfield, CA

      • I should think that the proposed change, as it stands, should be acceptable to both the LDS and the Roman Catholic churches, no? It seems like it is in keeping with the way that they would want to treat their own young people who are in the process of finding their identity. It says that we will not exclude youth on the basis of orientation or preference alone, and that we expect all our youth to be not sexually active, right? I can see reasons why proponents of change would not want this (and those reasons have been thoroughly presented by others in this conversation), but it seems like it should be in keeping with LDS and Catholic practice?

      • Karen Zeller The allowing of Homosexuals into its Church Boy Scout program is not in the plans of the LDS Church at this time. There is a difference in a private organization such as the BSA and the LDS Church. I know many are wondering when the LDS Church will make a statement on the issue of the proposed lifting the ban on homosexuals. I have previously commented on this website as to the position of the LDS Church on active homosexuality in the LDS Church it is a sin that requires repentance to be baptized and remain a member of the Church. From what I know the LDS Church will make a statement after the vote by 1400 Scout Leaders on May 24th. There would be no purpose for the LDS Church to make a statement at this time as there is only a proposal to lift the ban on those scouts under 18. I know locally that many LDS Units oppose lifting the ban in any capacity including those under 18.The LDS Church as usual will refrain from making a statement before the fact. It usually invites unnecessary comments before it is warrented. So Karen all comments on the LDS Church position in this website is pure speculation and needs everyones patience at this time. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • I think the approach of not answering the “what if” questions is a good one; I appreciate the LDS’ choice to do that. I think that the pressing of people to declare their response to a hypothetical has contributed to polarizing us. I understand why some councils & national would want to know how people would react, but it is polarizing.

        I didn’t mean to be speculating on the reaction of LDS nationally. I was only speaking from the base of my understanding of my friends who are Catholic and LDS, and how they would want to treat the individual Tommy Tenderfoot who is growing up in their church and trying to find his way, and who is not yet sexually active. Thanks for your care for the boys you serve, Trenton.

  58. While for many the partial acceptance of the original proposal seems a cop out or something far less than desirable, the decision does represent change. The Boy Scouts are suppose to be all about the boys, not the adults. The boys are addressed with this decision. Perhaps, in the future, gay adults will also be treated equally. In the meantime it is important to remember that whether we agree with the decision or not, what is important are the scouts. BSA still represents a wonderful place to help good boys become great ones. In all this furor, we need to try not to over look that important piece of the puzzle.

    • yes this is an improvement but this new possible policy still sends the message to the boys that its ok to discriminate because you are gay. even if they dont get kicked out till they turn 18 the message is still the same and equally hurtful.

    • I agree that it is about the boys… what does this say to a boy that would like to share scouting with his father that also happens to be gay? What does it say to a gay Eagle Scout that would like to give back to the program that did so much for him by continuing as ASM after he turns 18? He knows as a boy that he won’t be welcome once he is an adult.

      • It appears to say that Scouting may not be for that Scout and certainly not his Dad. Pretty harsh but that is BSA’s opinion. A homosexual Scout cannot grow into a role model for your young people. He can achieve individually and contribute to society buy not serve as a mentor to young men. That is what BSA is saying in my opinion.

    • While we all agree that the Boy Scouts of America should be all about the scouts, why must the leaders suffer with this inconsistent and irresponsible policy? It will be the scout leaders that will be on the losing end of the lawsuits. It will be the CO’s that will be on the losing end of being removed by the catholic churches because of their deeply held religious beliefs based upon God’s Word. This change for change sake is nothing short of a disaster.

    • Yes… And remind what the Girl Scouts stand for again as opposed to the Boy Scouts?

  59. As always the case if an organization wants to change something they will do it any how and way they can. Did anybody notice that the study left out the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that represent 24% of the total members of the BSA. Sounds like a political party underhanded bunch of turn coats. Even without the LDS Church being poled the numbers are far in favor of leaving the policy of excluding homosexual members out of membership of leading our youth.Who care’s about fortune 500 companies that favor any type of sexual oreintation goes we don’t want their bribe money to for the BSA to change its core values. Lets let these corperations keep their money we don’t need them we will find another source to fund the BSA or we will form a new organization. Who cares about younger leaders and Scouts that have been brainwashed by political correctness at their schools and some other organizations. It seems that we have a new slogan lets changethe values the BSA should never been left. God Help us all. Trenton Spears Scoutmaster Troop 144 Bakersfield CA

    • Who cares? Obviously those who are being paid an outrageous amount of money for their positions, and who are looking toward a generous (by today’s standards) retirement package.

      • You mention that the numbers are in favor of keeping the policy – have the results been published? If so, I hadn’t heard about it. Can you provide a link?

      • KS – Those who are voting are all volunteers, none of them can be BSA staff, who by the way are paid outrageous low pay amounts for the hours they put in. Listen and read before stating things that are so outrageously uninformed.

      • David; while the majority of the pro’s are paid poorly, the highest level ones, including the top people in a council, are overpaid in too many cases, especially at the National level. At least that is how many of us see it. But, while I would like to see some radical adjustments in the professional pay schemes to help the ones that do the real work at the lowest levels, my focus continues to be unit level, like most of us, often out of pocket. But that is our choice. Just a bit sad there appears to be such a disconnect between the National level and local levels and those that actually make it happen. JMHO of course.

    • Trenton, if you read closely, it was not LDS members who were not included in this survey, only the church itself. The executive summary doesn’t explicitly say, but it sounds to me like the LDS church has chosen not to speak yet. Maybe they were waiting to see how the resolution was actually worded? Not sure, but you can be sure they will be well represented at the May meeting.

      As for your statement, “Who cares about younger leaders and Scouts…” I would hope that we are all here because we care about the Scouts! The very groups you are denegrating are the groups that are the future of our organization. If you notice in the exectuive summary, the younger the demographic, the more accepting they are of policy change. Regardless of the reason for that view, parents with Scouts now oppose the current policy (and with a huge swing from 3 years ago).

      • If you read David, it was noted “those that make big salaries” which would be the fatcats at National Headquarters. They started this process partially based on a 6% response survey that most Scouts did not even receive that reflected a inaccurate sample of Scouts. National PAID leadership involved in the original deception should leave.

      • To MT _Momma
        I was once a scout and my mother would be outraged at any mother who would encourage such behaivour at an early age. We are seeing drug use at early ages and as a school bus driver, we see the children are smooking pot while on the bus going to school. GOD made male & female and said that it was good. Last I read it has not changed. I am now a parent with two adult children and they are concerned that parents like you are not teaching your children the proper way to live a strong and moral life. The BSA should not change anything to please misguided parents.

      • MT Momma I do read closely in case you don’t know we the LDS members are the Church these great leaders were once ordinary members like me and were called to be leaders of the Church by God himself. The members and the Church Leaders are always in harmony with the doctrine of Jesus Christ the head of our Church. Also important to me is that being a Boy Scout Leader for over 28 years and have benefited by this great program. While I feel that practicing homosexuality is a sin that will have to be repented and answered to on Judgment day I welcome any non practicing homosexual to be a fellow member and sit beside me at Church it is a simple matter of loving the sinner but condoning the sin. The LDS Church welcomes all people into its fold and like the Savior will use its influence to convert sinners even acting homosexuals to repent. Please make no mistake the National BSA Boards vote in May to attempt to lift the ban on practicing homosexual youth is not the same as the policies of the LDS Church they are clearly different. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

    • The numbers we read on the above links do not add up to a majority wanting a policy change. The BSA national leadership has caved to political agendas.

    • Trenton,
      I don’t know how the Fortune 500 companies interact with the BSA, but I would assume through donations both financially and/or materially. That means the cost per head to families is kept to a minimum. Imagine what would happen if you lost the Fortune 500 companies, hang on you already have lost some, IBM, Microsoft, UPS to to name a few, the cost per head would increase and who would have to pay this the families who if they are like Australian families you are already struggling, so luxuries have to be stopped. Mmmmmm BSA would be considered a luxury, sorry son we cn no longer afford for you togo scouts so you will have to drop out. Guess what numbers start falling and yo wonder why, no one is going to tell you they can’t afford the fees. Yet again the looser is the BSA

      • David: So because we have a number of uninformed, politically, poisoned poisoned companies that have deserted ths most wonderful organization, we now must cave to the ideals that the Boy Scouts have followed since its inception? And you agree with this behavior? And just because the families would have to pay more? I for one vote for the policy as it stands even if I have to increase my contributions to the scouts. It is worth it considering most families pay more for their cell phone, video games, etc.

      • David Richardson {Obiwan } I believe that if you large Company that contributes to an organization such as the BSA its influence should be to help that organization and leave the policy mandated by that organization alone. The problem with some contributers is that they should always remain commited to provide the source and funding based on the values to society that organization provides. After 103 years of service to the youth of America the BSA has stood mostly alone as the beacon of morality for setting the standards for quality programs that have been the bases of building charactor for Americas future leaders. Most important if the BSA keeps changing its values where will it end how can they justify the admittance of Scouts under 18 and asking them to leave the BSA program when they turn 18. It seems to me that end the short term the BSA will have to vote to allow adult active homosexual leaders into the BSA. The present proposal is the gateway to many changes to the core values of the BSA that will have everlasting consequences to the future of Scouting in America. What if Athiest want to be BSA members. What if a company like ATT&T want to pulls its funding because the BSA bans Atheist from its program which they do. I pray that the National Board of the BSA will listen to the majority of its Scout Leaders and Charters throughout this nation even its own survey that I responded to. The survey was a clear resounding endorsement of leaving the present policy as is. Lets not leave the values that the Boy Scouts never left, till the Fortune 500 Companies decided to take over the BSA and its policies. Trenton Spears,
        76 years old but commited to the BSA and its present policies.

      • Trenton, these comments aren’t directed directly at you … but at the general conversation:

        I have some insight into one Fortune 500 company, although I would prefer not to say which, as I’m not a spokesperson for that company.

        The BSA’s current policy is at odds with that company’s [very public] policies. We (yes, I work there) have many LGBT employees and very visible executives. Race, Gender, Sexual Identity, and Religion are all totally irrelevant when evaluating the worth of an individual as an employee or executive … and [I firmly believe] as an Eagle Scout or as a Scouting Leader.

        If your religion says you must feel otherwise, then I feel sad for you, because diversity strengthens us in many ways. For example, how can we teach Scouts not to bully LGBT individuals, while simultaneously very publicly stating that they as a group (regardless of their individual characteristics) are not worthy of membership in the BSA? Is this a case of “Do as I say, not as I do?” Are we saying that they cannot uphold the Scout Oath and Law, without ever meeting them, because of their sexual orientation?

        Exclusion breeds fear, hate, and distrust. Read the comments here, it’s very visible.

      • Kevin: Please don’t feel sorry for me my choice of my religion has blessed me so much over many years of faithful service. I could write many reasons for my happiness and joy for a faith based on the teachings of a loving Father in Heaven. I have no reason to doubt that God is in control of all things in my life because I invite Him to . Kevin you talk of diversity when has diversity become more important than a relationship with God based attributes of religion that follows Gods laws even when the followers are Boy Scout Leaders. Kevin ungodlike diversity is a slippery slope that mankind must avoid if they are to gain eternal life. Kevin save your sorrow for others that need it. Like the Scout Oath says Quote; morally straight: Unquote
        that is what I have been and always will be even to the end of the world. Trenton Spears

      • Trenton,
        I ill be the first to admit I could be wrong here but I a hear me out and correct me if I am wrong.

        When Lord Baden Powell started Scouting for Boys, it was started for all boys. Not once did BP state all boys except for you, you you and you (substitute what ever minor group ino the above you’s you would like to). So all boys did this “Scouting for Boys” and soon it grew. It grew so that it became too big for one country, so Scouting for boys spread its wings and travelled the world. The oceans didn’t stop the movement, countries borders couldn’t stop it, governments couldn’t stop it. Now some 100 years plus we have a Wordwide organisation of Scouting (WOSM). 103 years ago on a little island now refered to as the United States of America started the Boy Scouts of America (BSA). It started with 1 troop and over the years has grown and now has millions of Americians involved. Soon it became too large for a single national board to handle, o in the late 1900’s the BSA sold out to religious groups. The religious groups agreed that providing the BSA conformed with what the religious groups wanted then the BSA could keep the BSA name and the religious groups would benefit from that. Now in the 21st century, more than 60% of all CO’s are a religious group. Every one is “preaching” that the BSA is non demoninational and that religion should be taught at the family level, yet look at you policies, no homosexuals, no atheists. How can you say that religion doesn’t have an influence on the BSA.

        The BSA needs to ditch the religious CO’s and get back to Lord Baden Powell’s Scouting for boys fundamentals. The BSA years ago was a respected and highly sort after honour to have bestowed upon some one, now, well now it’s just a group that has homophobic policies and hides behind the Privte charter, when it doesn’t have it’s hand out for public monies

    • Trenton I have no idea if you’ve ever attended a boyscout camp. I don’t know about the BSA programs in your area either, but what I can tell you is the BSA is a dying organization. And being an organization that openly discriminates in this day and age is not a way to increase the membership.

      Your troop probably has your way of handling how you deal with gays and atheists. My troop doesn’t care about that, because it isn’t about your religious view or your sexual orientation, the organization is meant to better yourself.

      It’s not about the fortune 500 companies, it’s not about the money, but it’s about giving everyone an equal opportunity.

      • Dudenell I will respond to your question. I have attended many Boy Scout campouts over 28 years of being a Scout leader and Scoutmaster and even attended the 2010 National Jamboree as Scoutmaster for my Council. I have a lot of experiance with Boy Scouts and camping I was a Boy Scout in 1949. I would like to state that homosexualty has never been a active subject or problem in all my years in scouting. Why would equality be an issue over moral values? There is no complete answer to equality that will be left to a power greater than man itself. How can we better ourselves by condoning immoralty? How as a scout leader can anyone promote the breaking of the Scout Law and Oath that have been the standards of the BSA? As Scoutmaster I influence my Scouts as to the policies of the BSA and its charactor building traits of 103 years of Scouting. I for one will never bend to the policy of political correctness in my responsibility to instill the values the Boy Scout have never left. Dukenell don’t fool yourself this issue is all about money. Sincerely, Trenton Spears
        Scoutmaster Troop 144 Bakersfield

    • Very well spoken Trenton!!! I am so sad to see that those pompous ass that are in charge of the BSA on the executive board have bowed to the might of the all mighty dollar from corporate sponsors. What does this teach the youth of America? That your morals and ethical values are for sale for a price? Like you I say get rid of those sponsors “AT&T” and other such ones that are putting the pressure on the BSA to change their standing on this issue. There are many other companies that would love to stand behind the BSA, like Chic-fil-a for starters. This battle has already been won in the highest court in the USA, the Supreme Court, which said that we the BSA are an exclusive club and can admit anyone we wish and disallow who ever we wish, end of story!!!! This should never even be a topic right now if those spineless bastards on the executive board would just grow a pair!!!

      Assistant Scout Master Troop 131
      Crew Adviser Crew 8

      • I take exception to your name calling. It’s not friendly, kind or courteous.

        I’ll address your point of this issue having already been decided in the SCOTUS. Yes, the majority decision in the Dale case stated that as an organization the BSA has the right to set it’s membership terms. However, within that right, the organization also has the right to determine that their current membership policy is outdated and to revise it as they see fit.

      • Beth Have you ever heard these recent slogans in scouting, Timeless Values, America is returning to the Values that the BSA never left. I hope that the National BSA will live up to the promise’s that they sponsered and promoted thought out all of America. Beth at best the BSA will become a shell of its former self. No organization can survive if it abandons all the hard work of Scouts and Leaders for the last 103 years. Betrayal is a hard pill to swallow and that is what the National Board will force many members to do if they change the present policy regarding active homosexuals. When fortune 500 Companies money becomes the standard over values then the BSA will never be the same. Discrimination to solve discrimination will never work it will lead to division as it always has. Sincerely, Trenton Spears, loyal to the end.

    • That is the problem we are walking away from god and what is moraly straight. it seems like our society wants to define what is moraly straight, no what gods says is moraly straight.. When did we become gods???

  60. What was wrong with BSA’s 1984 policy on this issue?

    “Education for sexuality belongs in the home… Scouters should reinforce rather than contradict what is being taught in the family and by the youth’s religious leaders” BSA Statement on Human Sexuality, 1984

    If BSA had stuck to this policy, it never would have gotten into this mess.

    • because just like some religions bsa wants to control what you can and cant do even outside scout activities. even if you never bring up you sexual interests at any point if bsa becomes aware of it through some disgruntled parent you can be thrown out.

  61. So it looks to me like they are comprmising..,basically skipping a generation. The next generation of Scout leaders, some who may have homosexual tendencies will be the ones voting to allow Gay and Lesbian Leaders. As I have said in the past, there is no cause or reason in Scouting for sexuality of any form. I personally do not think this is a wise move. There will more than likely be issues arise were young Scouts are put in situations that they should not be put in.

    • scouting shouldn’t even have a policy on sexuality. its not something that needs to come up on any scout outing and its not something that will ever be an issue in a secular camping organization. this is just bsa attempting to control activities they should have no business in.

      • Dewey How are you going to get around sexuality when that is what homosexuals are all about and have forced the issue into Scouting. Good morals are the National BSA business and should be everyones business in Scouting it always has been and I pray it alway will be. I have never explained to my Scouts any sexual behavior hetersexual or homosexual it was none of my business and I felt that it was the parents responsibilty to teach their own youth as to the nature of sex. I thank God that homosexuality has never been an issue in my 28 years of Scouting there was never a comment brought up by any Scout or Scout leaders. The National BSA should have a hands off sex in its policy making. We have enough non sexual standards to keep us all busy. Bringing homosexuality into Scouting should be none of the BSA business and they should have left it alone. Sincerly Trenton Spears.

      • When a straight scoutmaster wears his wedding ring to Scouts, is he forcing sexuality into Scouting? Of course not. Openly gay Scouts do not force sexuality into Scouting either. Sexuality is only forced into Scouting when BSA makes sexuality a core teaching of Scouting, as BSA has done since the 1990s. If BSA would leave sexuality out of their core teaching, sexuality would not be a part of Scouting.

      • cwgmpls The facts do not back you up I have a long term association with the BSA and never have I seen any articles about teaching sexuality since the founding of the BSA in 1910 until recently when corperations threatened the withdrawal of support if the BSA did not bend to their threats to disrupt the funding of the BSA. The BSA has been neutral in the past on the issue of any subject about sex and its message has alway been to its members that good morals should be a part of their role in scouting whether they be a scout or a scout leader. As a private organization the Supreme Court has sustained that the BSA has a right to set the standards and policies that are consistant with their core values for the past 103 three years. When the homosexual agenda could not win in our Courts they went to the corperations to dry up the funding to the BSA what a dispicable and disgraceful action on the part of the homosexual agenda is this the kind of members we want in the BSA? If any sex has been introduced into scouting it has been the homosexual agenda and its mission to try and change the moral standards of the BSA and dry up its funding.With homosexuals in the end the homosexual movement is more important than the BSA and its mission.
        Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • Why are corporations “threatening’ to take their funding? Maybe they feel that the BSA no long adheres to their belief and are removing their funding. Then the BSA says “why?” and the corporations say “well, we believe in equality and freedom and you don’t”. And why are homosexuals trying to “dry up the funding” as part of their agenda? They want to join, which means more funding from them. They told the corporations that support them about BSA’s exclusion and the corporations decided which they’d rather support.

        So does that mean LDS is “threatening” and “drying up the funding” by deciding to leave? I mean, if it’s wrong for corporations to withdraw funding and considered “threatening” because the BSA is no longer compatible with their view, then it’s wrong for the LDS to do the same. If it’s ok for the LDS to separate from the BSA because they no longer support the BSA’s views, then it’s ok for corporations to separate as well. If it’s ok for the LDS to tell THEIR supporters about the BSA’s inclusion and those supporters to decide to NOT support the BSA, then it’s ok for corporations to and gays to do the same.

        Either both are wrong, or both are right. Don’t act like everyone except the LDS wants to “kill” the BSA when both sides are doing the exact same thing. Just as homosexuals may make their equality more important than the BSA (one would think equality would be a compatible value, guess not), the LDS wants to make their religion more important than the BSA, which is not religious. Same thing. One is not right and the other wrong for employing the same behavior.

      • BSA told the Supreme Court in 2000 that BSA teaches that homosexual conduct is immoral. The court ruled that BSA’s message regarding homosexuality provided the legal basis for BSA’s exclusion of gays.

        Are you saying that BSA lied to the Supreme Court? Are you saying BSA has not legal basis to exclude gays from membership?

      • cwgmpls Again you are misrepresenting the Supreme Courts decision in 2000 the ruling handed down was that the BSA is a private organization therefore had the legal right to set its own standards and policies. While homosexuality was the basis for the suit brought before the Supreme Court never the less the important issue was that the BSA had the right to set its own policies on any issue including the ban on Homosexuals in its programs. The BSA in no way ever had any policy to teach any sex issues or that homosexuality is wrong or right it simply stated that homosexuality was not consistant with the core values of the BSA and its mission to sustain its moral values in scouting. cwgmpls I think that you would agree that defunding the BSA by large corperations is not the American way to resolve issues in Scouting. Here in Bakersfield the United Way withdrew their funding from our BSA Council based on the homosexual discrimination issue we survived this great loss and we are now functioning very well without the United Way it is proof that the BSA can survive and the organization need not bow to the will of large corperations and their extortion ways. The BSA will find the way to keep the organization alive and well as long as the members remain solid in their commitment to make the BSA the best it can be. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

  62. It also sounds like once you attain your Eagle or age out of Scouting and are gay, you can not be a leader. Now we are excluding leaders that we trained in Scouting and even gay parents of Scouts. We already had a fight on that issue earlier this year. Conduct in Scouting is the key.

  63. So much for a Scout is loyal. I for one am tired of the attitude that “I must get my way or I will quit!” Scouting is in a place where it cannot win either way. Very sad. The values of Scouting are needed more than ever in our world, and anything that diminishes Scouting is a bad thing.

  64. By the way, I am a Scoutmaster and have already had to face the homosexual tendency with a young Scout. He is no longer in Scouting, because our local child services organization said he could not be left alone with other young boys. Our policy was that he could go on outings, but one of his parents had to go along and share his tent. It was a hard decision, because we felt he was just confused and “experimenting” and the family was far to lenient in his TV and internet use. If you dig into these cases, it usually leads back to a deficit in parenting, not a born predication to this lifestyle. What does an eleven or twelve year old know anyway regarding sex. Older teens I can understand and that can be dealt with. I think this is a bad decision and a cop-out from national.

    • So if you blame TV and the internet for creating gay youth (along with parents) how do you explain that homosexuals have been around for slightly longer that the electronic age?

      • They really like to ignore the fact that in ancient Rome gays were accepted and even married…must have been all that tv and computer time the ancient Romans engaged in.

      • As much as I admire the Romans and the Greeks and their immeasurable contribution to western Civilization, their cultures at their height were indulgent cultures and Masters in an unforgiving class system satisfied a lot of sexual perversions through force as they declined into a decadent moral society. Much like the decadent influences in popular culture today. So you are right that humans engaging in homosexual behavior have been with us since Man or woman desired sex with the same gender once food and shelter were secured and leisure time was available to indulge in such things. Surely you don’t want to look to the Greeks or Romans for a moral code for today’s youth where sex is concerned.

      • Why not, Fred? Our American system of government is largely based on ancient Rome and Greece. However, it wasn’t a perversion. Before Christianity made it’s appearance it was accepted and marriages were performed. It wasn’t the ideal, because no children occurred from the union, but it was accepted. Also your food and shelter comment applies to heterosexual intercourse, as well. One didn’t risk having children you couldn’t feed or care for, so after man or woman secured food and shelter and leisure time was available they could indulge. I fail to see why homosexuality should deviate from standard human survival practices.

        If some people can look to a book written by a bunch of dudes 2000 years ago for their moral code, then why can’t I look to a civilization that precedes it?

      • No is preventing you from follow the Romans and Greek in your personal life and Civilization went through a lot of growing pains as it developed into the highly advanced an technological society of today. There sexual acts were a perversion not the form of government, don’t misdirect the point. At the time, they had as many children as they could and birth control was an very primitive usually accomplished by forced abortions or killing the child after it was born if it was of the wrong class or gender. My family were farmers and landowners and I had seven siblings to help on the farm to support the family. Children were necessary for Society to function except for the most powerful Class that were by and large ruthless in the Empire.

        You and homosexuals can follow any book they want or no book at all and no one will stop them. BSA nor I want homosexual teaching and behavior in Scouting.

        As far as the Bible being written by dudes, Christian believers know that it is the divinely inspired word of God as recorded by his chosen “dudes” and virtually unchanged in many more than 2,000 years. As you may not know, it originates from Judaism which Christ himself practiced and formed a New Testament available to all people. Judaism is far older than almost all pagan religions.

      • Really? You just want to present that statement as fact with no proof? The earliest recorded existence of Judaism is 1000-1200 BC. Yet almost the European pagan religions can be linked to 12000 year old cave paintings….Hinduism alone is archaeologically supported back to 2500 BC with signs of variations preceding that definite date and also linked to 12000 year old cave paintings. In fact, it is believed (not proved) to have influenced the other pagan religions. All those Pagan religions preceded Judaism. Not few, MANY. All religions claim their teachings were inspired by their god, it’s hardly proof of anything. It’s a belief, not a fact.

        I do not want homosexual teachings in the BSA, I also do not want heterosexual teachings in the BSA. If I catch ANYONE trying to discuss sex with my child, I’ll likely knock their lights out and beat them within an inch of their lives. It’s creepy and perverted for strange men to discuss sex with children, especially clergy. That’s even creepier.

        Procreation of the species is natural and normal. Without it a species would die. However, even in nature does homosexuality occur. In the wolf, two homosexual wolves not only mate for life, but actually will care for the orphans of the pack. In such a way the pack continues to expand, because otherwise those pups wouldn’t be cared for and would die. As the wolf “couple” cannot procreate, they contribute to procreation by caring for orphaned cubs, thus ensuring survival of their society as whole, though not individually.

      • Sure, JCal. Cave paintings were organized religions.

        Searched for the homosexual wolves caring for orphaned wolf pups, couldn’t find it. I’d love to read that if you have the reference. Seriously.

      • No, cave paintings are recordings, like writing. And those cave paintings show links to later religions, just like written record may show links to later religions. Writing is not organized religion, so can I disregard your religion because it’s in written form?

        I actually cannot find the scientific paper that studies wolf society and stated the role of homosexual wolves, while not surprising as it’s been many years, it is disappointing. It was a comprehensive study. I have found many people discussing that paper, but the links are dead. It’s something to keep in mind for future searches if you are truly interested. For reference, I googled “homosexual wolves raising cubs” and got my closest results. You should also google black swans. Almost a quarter of black swan families have two daddies. One of the swans will procreate with a female and then when she lays the egg they will chase her away and raise it themselves.

        Are you also aware that out of the 1500 animals shown to practice homosexuality, humans are the only ones who practice homophobia?

      • If you find the wolf study again, please post.

        I have never bought the homosexual animals argument. All that I have seen indicated to me that it was nurturing of young for survival of the species, not satisfying sexual desires. Two males wolves engaging in expressive play that could be interpreted as flirting was merely expressive play. The whole penguin study.

        Just don’t see a purpose in nature for homosexual sexual relations and limited evidence in animals engaging in homosexual sex for pleasure. .

        When God spoke to Abraham, there was not thousands of years of organized religion and certainly not mono-theism. There was a lot of Superstition and idol-worship. Since its not related to the Scouting issue, I guess we can agree to disagree.

        So, we live in different cultures with vastly different morals and values and that’s fine. Let’s see how the vote goes.

      • I would happy to post it when I find it. Again, I found it to be fascinating. To some extent I can agree to disagree. I do not insist you BELIEVE as I do. Only that you accept that I have my own belief that does not align with yours. And just as you may think that my belief is “wrong”, I think yours is and so instead of haranguing you to “do as I say”, I will accept you live your way and I live mine, without violence, demonization, and by not standing around yelling at you for not believing as I do, or living as I do. I will not force you to live by my laws, and you will not force me to live by yours. In that same sense, you don’t need to APPROVE homosexuality, only allow them to live their lives according to themselves and not go around belittling them at every opportunity. And that’s the part in Scouting. They just want to live the same lives we do, without others standing around and yelling and screaming at them. You should be proud to be a part of an organization that inspires MANY people and that they want to be a part of, not finding ways to exclude them. Show them what a Christian is supposed to be, and more people will want to be like you.

        If you are TRULY interested, you should really look it up and you will find many cases of animals performing intercourse, NOT for procreation. Again, a quarter of black swans families have two male parents. The red fox will have heterosexual intercourse, even when the male is not producing sperm and the female is not in heat (for recreation). Bonobo monkeys also engage in frequent sexual acts (and no, I don’t mean flirting and I’m not going to get graphic) for recreation, including homosexual and lesbian activity. (Just be really careful looking up wolves, as I found when I was searching for that article. There’s apparently a gay “wolves” thing like some women are “cougars”? Yeah, careful there)

      • I read about animals engaging in sex outside arousal before I posted. I did not read about homosexual sex between animals in the Wild. I never really thought about it but hetero sex for pleasure between animals makes some sense. I know more than I want to know now. We didn’t really ponder the thought growing up on the farm and raising stock animals. An offspring was the purpose as far as we could see and that is what we wanted, Food for the table and money in the Bank.

        Not trying to force what I believe on you, just trying to maintain the current policy. which I believe is necessary. Some may see that as preventing homosexuals from living their life as they see fit but I don’t. We can’t join every Club we want or Organization we want. They can live a full life without Scouting. Its one of a million choices they have.

      • But when you go into a secular organization and try to enforce only YOUR beliefs, then you are trying to force me to live by them. Just because it was started by a Christian doesn’t mean that it must be held to those principles. There are many traditions that are practiced today that were started by tribal religions. I think you’d object if I told you that because of that you HAVE to celebrate them according to their original celebrations.

        Just because a bunch of people decide they like the values this organization has presented does not give them the right to co-opt it all for themselves. BP presented the BSA as a youth organization independent of a single religion. When he started it, it was assumed to be Christian, but as it got more popular he decided to open it to all religions, not pushing one over another. “Though we hold no brief for any one form of belief over another, we see a way to helping all by carrying the same principle into practice as is now being employed in other branches of education…” Helping all.

        If it was a purely Christian organization, you might have me on your side. I would agree that people should find a different organization. However, it isn’t Christian. It represents many beliefs, and by trying to MAKE it Christian and discriminate, you’re violating MY religious principles. You’re forcing me to live by them or abandon the organization, an organization that isn’t yours to start with. It belongs to all of us. You don’t have to love, accept, or even be happy with homosexuals. You just have to be nice to them and not sneer and deride and be rude (no calling them pedophiles. The Bible does NOT say homosexuals are pedophiles. Y’all are making that crap up yourselves). If you can’t understand that every human being has feelings and deserves some respect, then all the religion in the world can’t help you. Homosexuals exist. They are a part of this world. They have the right to live their lives. All you have to do is not be a jerk and as my grannie always said, if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all.

      • In my original post I stated that BSA is not a Christian organization but its beliefs and principles are compatible with my Christian faith and those of my Church. When they are no longer compatible, we will find another program to fill that need for young men and not place them in an environment that stands against the values and principles we are trying to instill that establish a high moral code for their life and Society at large.

        So, my opinion is based on “right of association” as guaranteed in the Constitution and morality which you and I differ greatly on the definition of what a moral code is or should be for young people or whether they should even have one.

        Talk about words, “Good” and “kind” must be made of high-quality rubber to withstand the stretching they get by Progressive thought.

        I just spoke my rationale for my opinion. I did not say make BSA a Church. I said keep it compatible with Christian ideals and principles as it has been and don’t throw a high moral code and allow youth and adults defined by their sexuality to change the Organization into what they want.

      • You coming here and saying the BSA should adhere to YOUR principles and that the rest of us should go elsewhere is not a rationale for your opinion, it is trying to co-opt this organization to YOUR beliefs. For whatever reason, they are making a change that you don’t like and instead of saying “well, this no longer adheres to my values” you are telling us to go away so you can make it what it wasn’t to start with. It happened to adhere to your values, now it doesn’t. Start a Christian one and never open it to other religions and ways of life and you won’t have this problem. Maybe a membership problem, but not this one. As a religious organization you don’t have to let in people who are not of your religion.

        But don’t tell us to go find another one because we’re “stealing’ yours. It wasn’t yours ever. The FOUNDER is the one who made it secular, not us. As a secular organization we do insist that it not exclude people based on a belief that is not many of ours. Homosexuality cannot be a sin in the Boy Scouts because the Boy Scouts isn’t a religion.

        But I’ll be fair, it should be localized. If your church has a troop (as you’ve said it does) then you should not be required to allow gay people in, you should be required to point them to a troop that will not abuse them, NICELY and without judgement. But you guys aren’t up to that one, you just want to exclude them from all troops.

    • Pure ignorance. My son was born gay and knew in middle school. He knew that he was different at a younger age, but did not know what that meant. No deficit in parenting at our house, and Ryan’s siblings are not gay. Ryan did the same work as all of the other Scouts for his Eagle, and discrimination is wrong on so many levels. Many of the Scouts are gay, and if the Scouts would have said something years ago, things might have been different for Ryan. My son has made a difference for the MANY gay Scouts that feel bad for who they are. They will now be able to be honest which is important for validation, and to start addressing the issue of suicide among the gay youth. They don’t have problems in the UK and they accept everyone, like the founder Baden Powell, wanted. I can’t believe the ignorance…

      • And so it begins, because William C. Duncan relates a truth that he experienced, he is called ignorant by the mother of a homosexual child who goes further to say that there are many, many gay Scouts. You know, I have never met a homosexual Scout at Jamborees, Camporees or Council events. Might have been there but understood sexuality is not part of Scouting. I and the vast majority of Scouters do not want to know about it. Doesn’t sound like KLSA is being very tolerant and accepting of William C. Duncan and will not be of me either.

      • Karen is not accepting of William because her son was denied the rank that he rightly deserved solely on the basis of his sexuality. by all measures he was a great scout but because of something beyond his control and getting found out by the wrong person he was discriminated against and stripped of his rights and accomplishments.

      • Mr. Cooper, you hit the nail on the head with your comment: ” You know, I have never met a homosexual Scout at Jamborees, Camporees or Council events. Might have been there but understood sexuality is not part of Scouting. I and the vast majority of Scouters do not want to know about it. ”

        Absolutely the statement that BSA National should have posted in regards to this issue from the beginning, without all of the hand-wringing and moaning that someone other than a heterosexual can’t be a decent person.
        It’s not our (the BSA’s) business.
        Can you identify a homosexual Scout or Scouter by mere acquaintence?
        Probably not – nor should it matter…. ever!!
        As I commented on my questionaire from BSA (that was quite bised IMO), it should not matter if the scout or scouter is left-handed, knock-kneed, ADHD, heterosexual, a member of any particular established religion, or have any number of other natural or learned experiences as a part of their makeup that make you ‘you’ – you should be acceptable (goes for adults too!). If you dally outside the Scout law (and State and Federal law), then you should probably not be considered a member – different story. And nowhere in the scout law does it *specifically* discuss sexuality. (I know there will be those who would jump on the 12th part and claim otherwise…y’all harp about “Morally Strong” but totally forgat about the “Mentally Awake” part!). Also nowhere in the Scout law does it *specifically * discuss honesty, but that doesn’t seem to be an issue….
        Can a Reverent scout be homosexual? That should only be determined by one’s own personal relationship with God… no one else’s. (this should not be a case of “I’m cold, you must wear a sweater”)

        The BSA Executive Summary points out interesting facts that should be most prominent:
        • “Youth safety and role modeling are two of the biggest concerns mentioned by members who oppose a change in the policy.”
        The experts noted (based on the snippets proveded) that inclusion of homosexuals is essentially a non issue. So the ‘issue’ should be pretty much moot. Unless there are also policy changes planned in 2-deep Leadership…?
        • “Views among parents under the age of 50 have changed significantly in the past three years, with a majority now opposing the BSA’s current policy.”
        If this is the case (and who but those parents under the age 50 are going to be most involved with the youth in the future?), maybe it’s time for the “Good-‘ol Boys Club” of over-50s to step aside and let the organization evolve with the times, stay viable, and welcome those with the desire to become good leaders, earn merit badges, go camping, climb the rocks at Jamboree and in Philmont, and educate youth in all the wonderful outdoor experiences they are not getting sitting at their computers, or from executives preaching from their secluded air-conditioned board rooms.

      • When did you meet Lord Baden Powell?

        When did he tell you what he wanted?

        Please don’t project your morals on him and claim them to his.

      • BP was a pretty interesting guy. It is interesting, for example, that he gave his blessing quite early to Hindu Scouts and Guides, so while he lived in and spoke the language of a culturally Christian country, he was far from exclusive about matters of faith. Yes, his country viewed homosexuality very negatively (note the case of Turing, the hero who cracked the Enigma code, for example); his country no longer does, and looking at the way he lived his life and the things he wrote about, I think he likely would have changed his mind along with his countrymen. It’s hard to imagine him separating from the Church of England after it began blessing same-sex unions. But then, none of us can conduct a seance, can we? Still, arguing that because most people in BP’s country in 1907 disapproved of homosexuality does not really prove that he himself would feel so differently from the way his country feels if he were in London today.

      • So Karen both you and I agree that it is inappropriate to project your morals and feelings and ascribe them to Baden Powell.

      • I think we agree that seances are impossible, Steve. I think it is possible to do accurate historical readings, interpretations of historical fact. One such very relevant fact is that BP embraced Hindu Scouting in 1922, whereas many Scouters I know today still have trouble with the idea that Scouts do not need to be monotheistic. I would contend that it is worth studying the man and listening to what he *did* say, although we cannot bring him to life and let him speak in 2013. History is not mystery; it is worth listening to.

      • Karen, that is apples and oranges. At the time India was part of the British commonwealth. It was legal to be Hindu. It is still legal to be Hindu. Hindus believe in Supreme Beings. How you translate that that Baden Powell would have accepted people that were open and avowed homosexuals when it was both illegal to be homosexual the entirety of his life and it was a sin in all Christian denominations at the time and as for Hinduism, homosexuality was not acceptable and those that did engage in it had themselves castrated.

      • Again, no seance possible.

        Two applications I think one might be able to make:
        First, I don’t see that BP was ever out of step with the Anglican church and the British government of his own time. It seems reasonable that if he were around in later decades, he would have remained in step with the Anglican church and the British government. There were great changes in both of those institutions during his lifetime, and he did not fall out with them during those changes.
        Second, welcoming Hindu Scouts illustrates what BP meant by a nonsectarian movement — one which did not favor one religion over another. No seance. But examining the Founder’s mind in his own time provides insight, I think. Not irrelevant.

      • Karen you are still tryi0ng to project your morals on BP. That IMO is wrong. Would you like it if I put words in your mouth after you are gone?
        Yes BP said that it didn’t matter what church you belongs to he did say that character derives from a belief in God.

        Here are some quotes from BP:

        “The aim in Nature study is to develop a realisation of God the Creator, and to infuse a sense of the beauty of Nature.”

        The study of nature brings into a harmonious whole the question of the infinite, the historic and the microscopic as part of the Great Creator’s work. And in these, sex and reproduction play an honoured part.

        When a Wolf Cub hears the words “Nature study” his first thought is about school collections of dried leaves, but real Nature study means a great deal more than this; it means knowing about everything that is not made by man, but is created by God.

        Religion is essential to happiness. This is not a mere matter of going to church, knowing Bible history, or understanding theology. Religion . . . means recognising who and what is God, secondly, making the best of the life that He has given one and doing what He wants of us. This is mainly doing something for other people.

        There are a good many men who have no religion, who don’t believe in God; they are known as atheists.

        In Great Britain alone there are nine societies of these. They are welcome to have their own opinions in this line, but when they try, as they are always doing, to force these ideas on other people, they become enemies of the worst sort.

        Some of these sects directly attack the religious belief of others in a very offensive way, …

        This to every Christian who believed in his religion is an indecent insult. At the same time it is a direct call to him to action. But I am not going into that here.

        Apart from the anti-religious there are lots of fellows who, though not violently opposed to religion, are not particularly interested in it. In some cases they have never been shown what it is; in others it has not proved very attractive or inspiring and they have let it slide…

      • Yes, beautiful, isn’t it? Exactly the sort of thing I would expect from BP. Today, many Christian (and other) faiths teach that we should accept and honor all people, not reject people based on their sexual orientation. Those faiths have been attacked elsewhere in this conversation as errored sects or not true Christians. I think that the words you have quoted from BP show that BP would not approve of such attacks. I think that in his own time he want Scouting to include all religious faiths. Thanks for sharing a lovely bit of BP’s thought — he was a terrific man.

  65. This isn’t a policy, it’s a cop-out.
    A scout is OK until 17 years 364 days and then See Ya? Are you guys serious?
    Pass this and you’ve signed Scoutings death warrant…
    I thought that a Scout is Brave.
    Chickens!

  66. I think the most significant information provided in the study summary is the following, because this is where the voting members come from and who they represent:

    “Support for the current policy is higher at different program and volunteer levels in the organization:
    . . .
    “• 64 percent of council and district volunteers support it.
    “• 72 percent of chartered organizations support it.
    . . .
    “• 50.5 percent of councils recommend no change.
    “• 38.5 percent of councils recommend a change.
    “• 11 percent take a neutral position.
    . . .
    “• The Central Region recommends, on behalf of its 73 councils, no change to the policy.
    “• The Northeast Region recommends, on behalf of its 65 councils, to change the policy by excluding any reference to sexual preference as one of the criteria for membership for youth and adults.
    “• The Southern Region recommends, on behalf of its 90 councils, no change to the current policy.
    “• The recommendation of 51 percent of the Western Region councils is no change at this time. Several councils within the Western Region were unable to provide a recommendation.”

      • At least for now, I’d say. Even this relatively benign compromise proposal will be voted down. Then the BSA executives can say that they did everything they could, but the membership shot it down. Then they can close the book on it for another ten years or so.

      • Exactly. They so much as said that if it is voted down, there are no plans to revisit it.

      • I hope that’s true, Diane. Asking the question at all ensured alienating many, on one side or the other.

    • Surprise, surprise. The push is coming from the Northeast. (Not seriously surprised.) 72% of chartered organizations NOT INCLUDING LDS.

      • the northeast is major population center with much more progressive attitudes and less direct control of particular religious groups over their scout programs.

  67. To those that think that the lawsuits will stop they will not, IMO

    How are open and avowed homosexual boys to be tented on camp outs?

    Why not let lift the ban on girls and and allow hetero sexual boys and girls tent together?

    • i have tented with both gay and straight people. i would do that because they are the people i would enjoy spending time with regardless of their sexual activitiy. the people i wouldn’t want to tent with are those that would bully someone based on their sexuality. those types are best left out of scouting until they understand what friendly means.

      • I find it interesting that if you do not agree with someone’s preference you are labeled a bully. A bully is someone who blatantly uses his will power to intimidate (verbally or written) and/or physically harm another just because he wants to. If I didn’t want to sleep in the same tent with another scout I am not bullying him I just don’t want to bunk with him. But because the other Scout has a different sexual preference than I do I am now labeled a bully. Even though I have never said anything intimidating to him or performed any physical harm to him. I just can’t grasp the logic here of the labeling. This is what the world is coming too. False Labels that have no correct substantiation to be founded on. We are all different, yes! That doesn’t mean that that because I am different than you one of us is a bully.

    • Are you truly as stupid as you sound? People who identify as homosexual are not looking to have sex with any one they encounter. They are attracted to people in a manner similar to the way that heterosexuals are. Gay men are not looking to engage in intercourse because they see the other person is a man, they want to develop a relationship with a person they care about in the same way you do. A gay boy scout is as equally unlikely to try to engage in sexual activities with a boy that he is not attracted to as a heterosexual male would try to engage with a female that he found unattractive.
      Do not allow your misunderstanding of how real relationships work affect someone else’s right to participate in a program designed to promote better citizenship and teach life skills, and not who to fall in love with.

      • Read your commentary on homosexual man-love in front of 100 people in the Mall and I know who will be considered stupid and it will not be Steve. Thanks for a glimpse into the totally unnatural thinking of the homosexual mind. And this romantic homosexual love will be solely limited to homosexuals between each other? Don’t think so. Homosexual men have always been known to sexually promiscuous. It defines their persona. Not as God and nature intended..

      • I understand the passion, I really do. But please be careful to express yourself with friendliness, courtesy, and kindness. Difficult when the topic hits so close to home for people on all sides, I know. And the facelessness of the internet makes it harder. But we are Scouts here, talking about what we want our family to do.

      • (And in case it appears from order on the blog that I was talking to you, Fred, I wasn’t — I was addressing the poster to whom both of our messages are replies.)

      • Mcleod Said: “Are you truly as stupid as you sound? People who identify as homosexual are not looking to have sex with any one they encounter. They are attracted to people in a manner similar to the way that heterosexuals are. Gay men are not looking to engage in intercourse because they see the other person is a man, they want to develop a relationship with a person they care about in the same way you do. A gay boy scout is as equally unlikely to try to engage in sexual activities with a boy that he is not attracted to as a heterosexual male would try to engage with a female that he found unattractive.
        Do not allow your misunderstanding of how real relationships work affect someone else’s right to participate in a program designed to promote better citizenship and teach life skills, and not who to fall in love with.”

        ==============

        Hmmm, Not very kind or friendly statements from you. I never said that that tenting a young man with same gender attraction with another young man would mean that they would have sex any more than tenting a young man with a young lady would mean that they would have sex. So why don’t we tent boys with girls? Why?

        It is not because we expect them to have sex, it is because we don’t want to provide the opportunity for them to have sex. How are we to know if they find each other sexually attracted? We don’t know, so we do not provide the opportunity.

        Unfortunately this means that the young man with with same gender attraction may be left out and as such will lead to further law suits.

        All I am saying that there appears to be a rush to do something about the membership requirements without being prepared for what will follow. No guidelines.

        As for gay men, explain Larry Craig and why only 3% of homosexual men choose to get married or enter into a civil union where it is legal.

        Homosexual men in committed relationships are the exception and not the rule.

      • You talk in absolutes. I have friends who are gay/lesbian and yes they are mostly like regular people but…

        the local roadside rest area was not only shut down but removed and dirt hauled so it could never be reused because it was the local hangout for homosexual activity between locals and truckers.

        A nearby state park had a sting operation involving dozens of game wardens where dozens were arrested for homosexual activity including soliciting children as well as adults who ventured into the property’s restrooms. This was above and beyond them soliciting each other. Even the game wardens were quoted as having been solicited and would not venture in alone.

        Rep. Larry Craig was nailed for solicitation in an airport restroom.

        Who were these men since by your description homosexuals don’t act this way?.

      • Yes, there are gay people that are promiscuous. There are also straight people that behave in this same manner. Larry Craig identifies as straight. He is married. He was a big supporter of anti-gay legislation when he was in congress. I would say he is a product of a society that teaches that being gay is the worst thing in the world that you can possibly be. Because being gay is *obviously* a more significant sin than any other sin.

    • True, Steve. If you look at the page of the mother who insists her parenting didn’t have holes in it, you’ll see that this is seen as a poor compromise, but “only a first step.”

  68. A good description of this decision can be summed up in an old saying ‘The man who straddles the fence only gets a sore butt.” BSA demonstrates an alarming lack of leadership by trying to please everybody and nobody. One underlying theme i noticed was that BSA leadership looked to the least mature and experienced members of Scouting to make the decision it made regarding the resolution. This is the chart that matters:

    “The BSA’s Voice of the Scout Membership Standards Survey was sent to more than 1 million adult members, with over 200,000 respondents. The survey found:

    Respondents support the current policy by a 61 percent to 34 percent margin.

    Support for the current policy is higher at different program and volunteer levels in the organization:
    o
    50 percent of Cub Scout parents support; 45 percent of Cub Scout parents oppose.
    o
    61 percent of Boy Scout parents support it.
    o
    62 percent of unit leaders support it.
    o
    64 percent of council and district volunteers support it.
    o
    72 percent of chartered organizations support it.”

    The respondents with the most experience and longest supporters of Scouting and children were rejected by national in favor of less-experienced younger parents and Youth with very little life experience at all. You don’t raise up your kids by letting them do what they want without experienced guidance. The parents in my Troop say they want Youth leadership supported by experienced positive role model adults to guide them. In my work with an organization that serves young children and teenagers I see way too many permissive parents with low-maintenance attitude toward their kids. Youth end up educating themselves and there is far too much “If it feel good, do it’ mentality towards our kids. I give the homosexual movement credit, they have been effective in indoctrinating youth and adults. into the belief that homosexuality is not a sexual choice. No scientific proof its not. Easily found on the Internet. Someone recently posted it was a “reclassified mental disorder” after years of pressure from the homosexual lobby. That is true, easily researched. I also see that those who are activists for homosexual inclusion in Scouting are saying up front they are offended by the title “Homosexual Activist.” Don’t know why.

    A clear majority of the people and CO’s who underpin the organization support the current policy. As we grow in life and Scouting, we learn that pop culture behavior is not positive or healthy for the young people in Scouting or life. Nobody should be afraid of new ideas and they should be welcomed and vetted. This resolution and homosexuality in Scouting is a bad idea. BSA will suffer from it. I would rather have a smaller Boy Scouts of America with principles and values than an all inclusive larger one with no values at all or immoral values and that is where I believe we are headed if this resolution passes. A club, not a principled organization. With the camel’s nose firmly under the tent, atheism, open sexuality of all types and negative influences of all types will soon follow.. That has been the pattern for culture change.

  69. So much for “Morally Straight”. What happens when that youth turns 18. Will he then be kicked out of Scouting? I doubt it! Nice job pandering to the donors!

    • as the proposed policy is written i cant see any additional donations. this will only continue the stereotype that gays are unworthy scouts.

  70. I read the proposal on gay Scouts and am disappointed because it is half-baked. Either let all homosexuals join the BSA or keep the ban. The national Executive Board needs to suck it in and make a management decision. There shouldn’t be an in-between. The BSA is saying that a homosexual youth can join, but not his homosexual parents? It doesn’t make any sense. Like I’ve said before, this is the perfect opportunity to let girls join Scouting, too. If young women can join Venturing, and women older than 21 can be Boy Scout leaders, what’s the deal with keeping girls out? If I were a parent of a boy and a girl, my wife and I would want to join ONE family organization and spend time outdoors with both of our children.

  71. The BSA’s Voice of the Scout Membership Standards Survey was sent to more than 1 million adult members, with over 200,000 respondents. The survey found:

    Respondents support the current policy by a 61 percent to 34 percent margin.

    Support for the current policy is higher at different program and volunteer levels in the organization:
    o
    50% of Cub Scout parents support current policy; 45% of Cub Scout parents oppose.
    o
    61 percent of Boy Scout parents support it.
    o
    62 percent of unit leaders support it.
    o
    64 percent of council and district volunteers support it

    It seems the vast majority of the people who do the work of Scouting oppose this resolution. Our Key 3 is 100% opposed and will vote so. The parents in my Troop want Youth leadership supported by experienced adults who set a great example as a role model for life. Productive citizens with traditional Scouting morals and values. BP didn’t mention homosexuality and it existed then as well. That’s good enough for me. I don’t know how small children become sexualized at the young ages mentioned by some on this list. I know adult mentors had something to do with it either by accommodation or outright encouragement.

    • I failed to mention that it looks like BSA looked to the least experienced Scouters and the most immature Youth to develop this decision. You never look to the least experienced people in an organization to make a Policy decision and you don’t teach children by asking their opinion and giving them what they want. You educate through your life experience and training. In the organization I work for that serves children and teens, we see way too many parents who take a low-maintenance approach to child-raising and popular secular permissive culture through the media is ready and waiting to sell sell sell.

      • if you dont consider what the youth actually want when crafting THEIR program you arent going to have any scouts left. they will find an alternative scout organization that actually listens to them (navigators/bpsa)

      • Amen to that. A lot of traditional Scouts have suggested that on this discussion. Sounds like exactly the permissive environment they are looking for so I encourage them to take advantage of those far more accepting organizations.

      • If they don’t want to follow the rules of this organization they shouldn’t join it in the first place. They can always go start one of their own with their own rules.

    • Fred, do they get a vote? The Scouting.org page said it will be the 400 voting members at the National Council, and only those in attendance will get to vote. They won’t release the identities of those 400, but I sure would like to know how many are coming from the Northeast. (Anyone know where the meeting will be held? I’m hoping Texas.)

      • I think the National Council is made up of 1,400 members., not 400. I’ll look that up. It is your Key members, Council President, Council Commissioner and a addl reps based on size of Council. Southern District has the most members. I bet everyone goes on this one. I know ours are all attending.

      • My understanding is that it will be the 1,400. The delegates representing my council will be voting to leave the policy as is.

  72. BSA started down the road to their own demise the day that they decided that BSA knows better than parents or clergy how to teach sexuality to boys. That was over 20 years ago. What we are seeing now is the last gasps of a once-great organization.

    • CWGMPLS said: ”

      BSA started down the road to their own demise the day that they decided that BSA knows better than parents or clergy how to teach sexuality to boys

      ==========

      I would disagree with you. I think you have it backwards

      BSA started its decline the day that man and clergy decided to change the laws of God and teach that sex outside the bonds of marriage was no longer a sin.

  73. No I don’t like this. How does it stand up to the Scout Law? Well it fails on “loyal”. How can we accept children as members and then when they become adults we shun them? That is not loyalty.

  74. Much of the concern about gay leaders seems to focus on the issues of sexuality intruding on the program or issues of dealing with sexual attraction on outings. However, we have a coed program in Venturing. Since I am attracted to women, I guess I can’t be a Crew advisor since I may be attracted to the girls in my Crew? I guess women can’t be leaders in a troop since they might become attracted to a boy in the troop? I guess no one uses logic anymore….. The anti-gay stance is nothing but bigotry

    • You’re missing the point, Michael. The problem is with EQUATING the practice of homosexuality with heterosexuality. It’s not so much about worrying about predators; it’s about kowtowing to the minority (it’s a minority in the real world) who considers the practice of homosexuality to be normal.

  75. Given that the current policy for Adults will not change, regardless of the vote outcome, I’ve always wondered what it actually means, and how it works.

    I know a number of LGBT individuals. Where do you draw the line on open and avowed? Open to whom? Avowed to whom? Does my knowing (as a Scouter) mean anything? Is the Chartered Org rep the key person (as long as they don’t know, it’s cool)? Is the Executive officer of the Chartered Org the person who needs to be kept in the dark? Or is it just that professional Scouters (Council employees) must be kept in the dark?

    What if you never see a father with a child?
    What if a child comes to a Court of Honor with two women?
    What if a child says “I have two Moms?”
    What if someone else says “Did you know that Gail belongs to the local LGBT group?”
    What if Gail says “My partner will be picking up Tommy from the Camporee.”
    What if Gail’s van has a rainbow bumper sticker?
    What if someone comes up to you and says “Did you know Gail is a Lesbian?”
    What if it’s a young single guy, an Eagle Scout without a girl friend?
    What if you are wandering through the mall and see him in a non-scouting environment and he’s holding hands with another young man?

    What if the person never admits to being a Lesbian or Gay? Are they still “open or avowed” if you know they are, but they’ve never said it?

    To avoid being “open or avowed” do you need to get a denial from them? “Oh, I meant she’s my business partner.”

    What if someone isn’t a Lesbian or Gay, but they are falsely accused?

    To avoid being “open”, does a Lesbian need to find a male friend to pretend to be her boyfriend?

    In the real world … how is this supposed to work? In the real world, why would anyone want this to work? Given all of the concerns that some folks have about Gays, why would you prefer a policy that tells them they have to keep their orientation secret?

    • Kevin, I support the current Policy. Under the current policy, unless a Scout is not being trustworthy, all of your questions concerning the Scout are moot. I have had all manner of parents over the years and grandparents who had to take over as parents. Any Public display of negative behavior at a Scout meeting and the person is asked to leave. Same gender romantic PDA’s would be asked to leave.Two women or men sitting together supporting a Scout wouldn’t raise a concern unless they made it a concern. We’re sponsored by a Church that is Bible-believing and does not accept homosexual behavior as moral. Parents join with that knowledge. I don’t think I would have a problem because we are open and honest about our faith when people join. We pray to close every meeting.

      • If I read you correctly, you draw the line at PDAs at Scouting events?

        (If I don’t reply, please accept my apologies … I have an all-day Woodbadge staff training starting very early tomorrow morning, and I’m signing off now).

      • Kevin, i draw the line at sexuality in Scouting. the stories I could tell about marginal behavior of adults are far more salacious than Scouts and usually the Scout is embarrassed by the adults not the other way around.

    • Kevin, to lie about their sexuality is to break the Scout Oath and Law. No one is asking them to keep it a secret, we are asking them to tell the truth. Boy Scouts of America has been around for over a 100 years and there has not been a problem with this yet. Yes, I know their were and still are secret homosexuals in troops across the country ,but they should be shameful of disgracing the Oath and Law by not being truthful. I ,myself, am going to be greatly affected if this policy passes because I live in the south. My troop is chartered by a local community church that supports the current morals and if those are changed they will cut our charter. I am six to eight months from my eagle and I am six months from being seventeen. This means that I have a year and a half to obtain my Eagle Scout ,and if this policy changes next month, I will never be able to obtain the scouting pinnacle rank of Eagle Scout. So, I’ve prayed to my God so much lately that he will do what is in his plans and help me ,through it all, to obtain my Eagle Scout. Because of this my fellow Americans and Scouts alike, I ask you to think of your opinions and of how so many scouts ,who’s charters are going to be cut due to policy change, will fell when they can not obtain their dreams due to lack of experience able to be gained through scouting.

      • Alex,

        If the policy changes, you will still have the option to complete your Eagle, but perhaps not with the same Troop. If the policy does not change, Gay youth continue to be denied the possibility of being an Eagle. The proposed policy change was driven by that fact (please read the executive summary).

        Regardless of the policy, you must complete your Eagle. Don’t let this stand in your way!

        I also understand some of what you are feeling, because if the policy does not change, we may lose our charter – as we are chartered by a Congregational Church that is “Open and Affirming.”

      • Son, don’t panic. I hope that your troop hangs in there for you. But if they don’t, it is *always* possible to earn an Eagle as a Lone Scout — that is completely in your control. Nobody can take your opportunity at Eagle from you if you are determined to reach it.

      • No, Alex. The current policy states that “open and avowed” homosexuals are not permitted, and that the BSA does not proactively inquire into the sexual orientation of anyone. It is a defacto don’t ask, don’t tell policy.

        Why would you want to deprive a fellow scout of the rank of Eagle, that they themselves have worked so hard on? If a fellow scout happens to be gay, you are asking that they not be permitted to be a Scout at all, and therefore not make the rank of Eagle. If your troops charter is cut because of a policy change, you and the other members of your troop can approach your school or a civic organization to charter a new troop. If you can’t find an organization willing to charter you, the collective group of parents can form a civic organization called “Concerned citizens for troop ###” or something similar. You have plenty of time to make Eagle, no matter what happens with this vote. I don’t want to see gay Scouts deprived of the same right, for which they have also worked for, and may be praying just as hard for.

    • Kevin said: “I know a number of LGBT individuals. Where do you draw the line on open and avowed? Open to whom? Avowed to whom? ”

      ============

      Kevin have you tried looking in a dictionary?
      Websters defines homosexuality as “of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex ”

      Open and avowed means that they are openly admitting that they engage in homosexual sex.

      Quite frankly any scout that openly admits to having sex outside the bonds of marriage should not be a member.

      So if a young man were to tell me that he has same gender attraction, IMO, that is not the same as an “open and avowed homosexual.” Scouts should not be engaging in sexual activities. Period. That is not morally straight. Likewise, I would have a difficult time accepting an adult as a volunteer when everyone knows that he is shacking up with his girlfriend.

      • Where you see something that is black and white, I see something that is quite ambiguous.

        I have been told of situations where someone was turned in to Scouting executives, who investigated and then removed that person as a leader. The individual in question never told anyone in involved in Scouting, and never displayed any inappropriate behavior at a Scouting event.

        They were, however, an officer in a campus LGBT group, and that got them removed from Scouting. His name was James Dale, and an interview he did on health risks for Gays was brought to the attention of professional scouters.

        … and here we are today.

      • > Likewise, I would have a difficult time accepting an adult as a volunteer when
        > everyone knows that he is shacking up with his girlfriend.

        … and how would that be any of your business? Seriously.

  76. Assuming this passes, this is a conservative killer because now all units must accept homosexual Scouts and Summer camp is no longer acceptable because homosexual youth staff members would now be permitted. That is as unacceptable as homosexual adult leaders (role models). The way it is written is the sort of incrementalism that has debased pop culture, large corporations, public schools, and now presumably the Boy Scouts. It is axiomatic that adult homosexuals will some day have to be accepted by all units if homosexual youth members are accepted now. The sad fact is that Corporate America is now led by amoral ultra leftists and they simply cannot leave us alone to have our morality-based organization. They don’t care how many conservatives leave, they just don’t want us around. The national committee has to choose sides and accept the results of their choice. If we loose the BSA to the ultra leftists, I stand ready to help create a new Christian Scouting organization to replace it.

    • You are naive if you don’t think there are already gay staffers at your Boy Scout camp. There are also likely gay kids in your troop. Clearly, they’re not “out,” and may not even have fully accepted their own sexuality, but they are there. I am an Eagle Scout, and a Vigil Honor member of the OA. I was a summer camp staffer in my teens. At the time I knew that I was gay, but was struggling with it. Fortunately, unlike many young gay teens in an anti-gay environment, I did not end up trying to kill myself.

      You think that Scouts only belongs to people who think and believe as you do, but there are countless numbers of us out here in the real world who gave years of our life to Scouting. It’s partly ours, too; as much as it is yours. You don’t get to take that away from me. And I want those gay kids, settled with it or struggling, to know that they can have a full Scouting experience, as well.

      I was not a danger to the kids I taught to swim or row when I was a staffer. The gay staffers at your camp are not a threat to your kids. We’re people, just like you. It’s sad, and uncharitable, that you refuse to see that.

      • Well said Carter.
        Gay scouts youth or adults aren’t the danger, the danger s from those who have narrowed blinkered vision, who are quick to condem and aren’t willing to learn the new world

        Even though I’m not in the BSA I hope that an all inclusive scouting policy is adopted for the better,ent of scouting as a whole

        YIS

      • Homosexuals are a greater risk to my son than than Heterosexuals. It isn’t true that every homosexual isn’t a pedophile or child molester. Some are sexual predators and we the parents know it. No scouts then there’s no need for scouting. Think your going to over ride parental instincts with manipulative deceptive words of how safe homosexual men or older youth are to be around my son; NO. I’m just not stupid enough to believe all this crap about how safe homosexuals are to be leading and in care of my son. I know a boy that was molested by an older scout when he was 12 and the older scout was 15 and an Eagle Scout. The older boy was a homosexual; a predator. When it comes to our children even us stupid people wise up pretty quick to smell a con when we hear one. When the first youth is raped by an older Homosexual Scout the media will be out to destroy scouting with their banners of we told you so. I’m also not stupid enough not to believe that either; been around too long not to smell a line of crap when I hear it.

      • I am not a threat to anyone. Nor are any of my gay friends who were Scouts as children. When you paint with such a broad brush, you personally attack honest, moral, ethical people such as my friends and me. You also seem to ignore than child molestation routinely crosses gender lines — many otherwise heterosexual men who molest children will often molest boys because their circumstances give them greater access to young male targets. This is the case with almost all of the child molestation that has occurred within the Boy Scouts in its history. You can’t tell someone’s likelihood to commi such a crime by looking at them or findimpng out if they’re gay or straight. What you can do, and the BSA has done, is put in place good youth protection rules and procedures and then vigorously enforce them. Good rules well enforced will work with big straight and gay people.

        Again, I somehow managed to work at BSA summer camps without harming, corrupting or otherwise abusing a single younger Scout.

      • Your the one that’s trying to paint homosexuals with a broad brush. Most are not Godly people and not yoked equally with the majority of society who by the way are Christians in the USA and in the BSA. Do you actually think parents came out in droves in the BSA survey and supported homosexuals to be leaders of their children; that parents want their children to be led toward homosexuality or to be told homosexuality is normal sexual behavior and ok in the eyes of God? Let me give you a parents answer; NO. There is a truth to all of this and it lies in the Spirit of God. I think the aggressive militant homosexual activists should quit their biased bigoted attacks against a youth organization supported by the US Supreme Court to run their organization in whatever manner they see necessary to fulfill whatever mission they’ve chosen to fullfill.. And you and all homosexual activists do have the equal right to build your own youth organization and fill it from top to bottom with like minded homosexual activists. The US Supreme Court says you have that right too. I’ll predict your membership will be very small to nearly non existent but maybe that won’t disuade you from trying.

      • BTW, glad we have an English grammar major on this list, sure strengthens your argument to sound intellectual.

        Scouting Mom said: Wally-in the BSA survey, I supported (and still support) LGBT individuals to be leaders and scouts. I’ve also told my son that homosexuality is normal… Our local council also recommended that LGBT individuals be allowed as leaders and scouts. There are more of us that support an inclusion policy than you think. We are den leaders, committee chairs, cubmasters, merit badge counselors, and scout masters.

        I know you’re out there. Totally disagree with your position. There are more of us than you think or believe. We resist LGTB in Scouting in any way. You call that hate, I call it Youth Protection and high moral and ethical standards. Our Council totally rejected the previous and current resolutions by a unanimous vote of the Board after consultation with Scouters and parents. My son is 21 and an Eagle Scout and has written opinions in support of the current policy to his college newspaper that have been published. He and all of his Scouting friends support the current policy. They hate no one. They are a product of the character education standards of Boy Scouts of America. They are productive citizens and leaders and feel open avowed homosexuality has no place in Scouting.

      • Truths don’t change one way or the other just because you may know fancy words or think you have a way of putting them together to either deceive or manipulate the truth. The word inclusive is deceptive in this discussion of permitting homosexuals to be actively involved members from the top down throughout the BSA. The BSA is inclusive with standards for membership; adhere to those standards and your welcome to join and participate in every aspect of the scouting experience. Step away from those standards and your not welcome nor should you desire to participate. I see a lot of supporters of the homosexual agenda on this blog; maybe there battle ground. But no matter how you wrap their agenda up in fancy eloquent words and statements the truth shines through. Your not going to change the heart if a heterosexual man or woman with words; its been written on their hearts and is divinely untouchable. There will never be acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle in culture; best they can hope for is tolerance. It will always be perverted human sexuality and an abomination to God’s will for His creation; that’s never going to change no matter what words or verse are used. Homosexuals choosing to live that lifestyle sincerely need to leave the BSA alone and create their own youth organization if they sincerely believe in what they stand for. Their only inciting more anger against themselves as they continue to attack and try to overtake and change people that will never agree with or accept their agenda of trying to normalize a behavior that perverts God’s purpose for human sexuality. Think God cares if homosexuals are sexually satisfied in a homosexual relationship? Do you think God cares more about loving Him and His creation with the help if His gift to us in the Holy Spirit who can lead is to a life with Him now and eternally. The truth will always live wheter written on paper or in books eloquently or not; His truth will always be written on the hearts of men and women who open their hearts to allowing the Holy Spirit to live within them. Scouting has a true spirit too. And it demands respect to all it stands for. It isn’t for everybody; just anybody who chooses to mold their lives to all it is and all it stands for. Takes discipline; more for some than for others but accept it for what it is and quit trying to steal it from everyone else who chooses to mold their lives to everything it is and has been for over a hundred years. Our youth are counting on us to preserve this for them; defend everything it is so they can choose to mold their lives to its standards and ideals too. We do owe that to them; we’ve already ruined so much for them already as a society.

      • carter said: “I am not a threat to anyone. Nor are any of my gay friends who were Scouts as children. When you paint with such a broad brush, you personally attack honest, moral, ethical people such as my friends and me. You also seem to ignore than child molestation routinely crosses gender lines — many otherwise heterosexual men who molest children will often molest boys because their circumstances give them greater access to young male targets. This is the case with almost all of the child molestation that has occurred within the Boy Scouts in its history. You can’t tell someone’s likelihood to commi such a crime by looking at them or findimpng out if they’re gay or straight. What you can do, and the BSA has done, is put in place good youth protection rules and procedures and then vigorously enforce them. Good rules well enforced will work with big straight and gay people.

        Again, I somehow managed to work at BSA summer camps without harming, corrupting or otherwise abusing a single younger Scout.”

        =====================

        This is the lie I hate the most. When homosexuals try to blur the line between pedophilia and homosexual child molestation. I am not trying to imply or say that all homosexual men are child molesters but you should not be covering up for those that are.

        A pedophile as defined by the American Psychiatric and Psychological associations is an adult that has sexual desires towards prepubescent children. Gender does not matter. What does matter is that they are prepubescent or peri pubescent. So pedophiles would only be preying upon cub scouts.

        Boy scouts on the other hand are peri or post pubescent. men that prey upon them are homosexual men with a penchant for young men. they are child homosexual molesters and are no different than a make swim coach that has sex with teenaged girls on the swim team. He would not be a pedo file but a hetero sexual child molester.

        So please stop with the lie and the blurring of the lines in an effort to whitewash the reality that any man molesting a boy scout is a homosexual. Accepting that reality would help the dialog move forward in a positive direction. The constant lies do not.

        We have to accept the fact that there are heterosexual men that like to prey upon girls and there are homosexual men that like to prey upon boys. It is our duty to protect our youth. As long as you are in denial of this fact we cannot move forward.

        About a third of the reports of molestation by the populace have involved homosexuality. Likewise, between a fifth and a third of those who have been caught and/or convicted practiced homosexuality. Finally, a fifth to a third of surveyed gays admitted to child molestation.

      • You’re the biggest…Boy Scouts are post pubescent? My 7 year old (a Boy Scout) has gone through puberty? In violation of common medical knowledge? The fact that you actually believe that invalidates the entire rest of your post. If you don’t understand that even a Cub is a Boy Scout and that the vast majority of 7 year olds are NOT, in fact, post pubescent and is only peri-pubescent in the sense that a 1 year old is also peri-pubescent then you have already shown to not know ANYthing of use. BTW, peri-pubescent age for boys is around 9..not 7.

        Add to that fact, pedophiles DO latch onto a particular age, and yes it is sometimes an older age. According to your own figures the majority of child molestation occurs when a male molests a female.(2/3 of the time)..studies have shown the majority of molestation ALSO occurs by family members..so can we start kicking out every single male family member on the assumption that straight hetero males ALL like little girls?

      • There is no blurring of any lines here. I think where we can find common ground is that we all believe that raping children is wrong. If the victim is a boy or a girl, it is wrong. If the perpetrator is a man or a woman, it is wrong. Gay people think its wrong to rape children, also.

      • Wallace, you state the obvious problem:
        “There will never be acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle in culture; best they can hope for is tolerance.”
        Hmm… Isn’t God supposed to love everyone? Obviously people, in general, do not. I will not debate with you one’s faith because your beliefs are yours, mine are mine. They are not exactly the same.

        What I do find disturbing with this whole issue is the fact that neither the current policy nor the proposal on the table allow for equitable tolerance.
        There are lots of religious bodies that hold different things important. Yet BSA does not specify which one is THE one. That requires tolerance. BSA allows women leaders, and has gone to great lengths to make accommodations as part of their Youth Protection Program (and required facilities upgrades). That has required tolerance. Why now does the BSA falter on tolerance?? The Scout Oath insists upon it!
        The Scout Oath’s final pledges are:
        . . . mentally awake, . . .
        Develop your mind both in the classroom and outside of school. Be curious about everything around you, and work hard to make the most of your abilities. With an inquiring attitude and the willingness to ask questions, you can learn much about the exciting world around you and your role in it.
        . . . and morally straight.
        To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.

        Apparently the crafters of the proposal have become closed-minded and are not interested in being curious about everything around them. Nor are they being strong characters who are willing to be open an honest and respect and defend the rights of ALL people. This would require tolerance. There are many within the organization, based on the results of the survey, who choose to not want to be tolerant. That goes against two significant parts of the Scout Oath. It is not being Friendly, nor Kind. Two black marks against the Scout Law – and a third failing of the Scout Oath by those who claim to uphold it.
        If those voters of the proposal willingly choose to not even defend the whole Scout Oath and Law, how can they justify that they are representative defenders of the BSA program at all?
        This partial ‘acceptance’ proposal is merely that… partial. Kind of like being a little bit pregnant.

  77. While I’m not happy about this half measure resolution, at least it’s made enough of you crazy bible thumpers mad enough to leave scouts…now that is a great day for scouting…

    • I’d never betray an organization that’s meant so much to me throughout my life. I’ll be here and many more quality men & women will be here too.

  78. Studies show that homosexuality is NOT an inborn trait but rather a developed way of thinking and behaving.Studies also show that 50% of adolescent boys are ambiguous about their sexuality but by age 18 that is cut to 17% and by age 25 there is only 2% or less who still have same-sex attractions the majority of the time and therefore choose to identify as “gay”.It is repugnant to even suggest that a young person label themselves as gay when in reality they have not had time to truly sort out their feelings. Thinking, feelings, and behaviors are all changeable. The APA is a politically motivated association in regard to this issue and it ignores the scientific evidence that motivated individuals can change with the proper therapies and support.This resolution is a slippery slope. Anyone who engages in non-marital sexual behavior is not complying with the moral principles of the scouts.

  79. If the scouts are truly about what is God-pleasing, they would educate the boys about the unhealthy factors which cause homosexuality. Over one hundred fifty years of scientific research has identified a cluster of factors which apply to the vast majority of cases. Leading the list is a dysfunctional relationship with one’s father. A dysfunctional relationship with one’s mother is second. Third is sexual molestation. There are other factors as well and often it is a complicated mix of factors.If more were known by the public, a lot of misery could be prevented. But to simply open up membership to children with same-sex attractions is a slippery slope. Educate the youth as well and acknowledge the hope of change.studies show that therapies have anywhere from a 28-35% rate of success…that equals the success of drug and alcohol treatment programs! I would say that gives hope. Is it easy? No more than so that kicking any other addiction. Don’t believe the lies of gay activists.There are many who know that it is possible to walk away from homosexuality. I am blessed with knowing some personally and I have met many.

    • They have tremendous faith and admiration for their leaders on the front lines leading the troops, committees, districts, councils,etc.; we don’t let them down. We are the backbone of the organization. The volunteers who make the BSA what it is and has always been.

    • BSA isn’t trying to educate boys about sexuality. The Scout Oath says the boy promises to be ‘morally straight.’ Why join BSA if you don’t want to be morally straight?

      • you cant be morally straight it you preach hate towards those of alternative sexualities, genders, and races.

      • Dewey, where is hate being taught?

        I would suggest that you promote hate when people disagree with you.

      • BSA has a clear teaching about sexuality. BSA policy states clearly that open or avowed homosexuals do not “posses the qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth”.

        However, over 40% of adults in in the United States now feel that there is nothing at all wrong with homosexual behavior.

        Why does BSA think that it knows better than 40% of families how to teach sexuality to boys? Has BSA, in its history, ever held a national membership policy that 40% of Americans disagree with?

        If BSA wants to be an exclusive club that rejects mainstream America, that is fine. But don’t act all surprised when others start treating BSA as an exclusive club that rejects mainstream America.

      • cwgmpls said: “Acceptance of homosexuality is mainstream America.”

        Patently false statement. Prove it!

      • USA today did a feature drawing together lots of the evidence for the changing views of homosexuality here: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2012/12/05/poll-from-gay-marriage-to-adoption-attitudes-changing-fast/1748873/ .

        Gallup’s report last fall said that American’s views about homosexuality were showing the fastest change on any social issue since the poll began. Americans are very polarized on many political and social issues; we all know that. The red state-blue state divisions are real. To describe the country as a whole, though, I think you would have to say that acceptance of gay people has become mainstream — granted that there are large areas of the country where it is not. Your town, Fred, and perhaps your council, and even your state (perhaps minus a city or two) is probably a place where it is not mainstream. But for the country as a whole, there has been a major shift, documented by many different forms of research.

      • This is my definition of mainstream. I sure you have majority of mass media as yours.

        “Mainstream is the common current thought of the majority of acceptable behavior or thought.”.

      • Fred, let me make sure I understand your definition: the common current thinking of the majority of those whose thought is acceptable. Is that right? If it is, then no data from any source about the American population as a whole will ever be relevant to you. You are starting with a definition of the population as those whose thought you find acceptable. If the percentage of the whole that agrees with you shrinks, you will still not see a mainstream, because your “total population base” is limited to those you already find acceptable. So then it is not worth discussing the term “mainstream” with you.

        You have talked with me enough by now to know that I don’t live off of surface-level pop media. I think that mainstream accords well with “majority opinion,” and that there are lots of ways to assess majority opinion. All those that rely on the US population base as a whole are showing the demographic shift. You can research that yourself, if you look beyond the sub-population that you have defined.

        It’s a very big country. Different parts move in different ways at different rates. It is possible to make some large-scale measurements, however.

      • Most Senators are soulless Godless creatures and many of them are homosexual. Talk about not living in the “real world,” that would be a US Senator. I despise both from my State as they are corrupt soulless Godless creatures and have proved it many times..

        The new Privileged Class; Overpaid, indulged with gold-plated healthcare and no limits to their behavior outside murder. Rape has been excused several times. Fawned on by lobbyists with no measure of performance save re-election by a dependent fan base called the voter. They usually achieve majorities by a corrupt political machine or groups using corrupt voter registration drives and drives and lawyers protecting illegals and multiple voters.

        To me, 51% of Senators defeats your argument.

      • No longer in favor of the constitutional democratic republic? That’s disturbing.

      • Hmmm, that’s a reach. How about not willing to accept the majority of opinion of Senators on a politically-charged cultural issue dominated by activists revelent?

        I’m all for a Democratic Republic. I just wish Senators would be termed out after 20 years at most. But, I respect the wish of the voters and would not in any case deny them the vote, however misguided I believe it is or they believe mine is.

      • Do you realy believe in a democratic republic? I know when I vote I vote for Christians, Pagans, Gays, Atheists, etc..

        But when you vote, do you only vote “Christian”?

      • JCal, if there is a viable Christian candidate, yes. Is there is not, next would be a viable Conservative candidate. If there is neither one of those, then Republican or Libertarian, or Independent would be next. If I have to hold my nose to vote, it will be only to vote against a far-left liberal progressive Democrat candidate. But you already knew that I am sure. No conservative Democrats left as far as I can tell so I think that covers it.

        You asked me, so how about you?

      • I answered. I vote for everyone, including Christians. My rights only exist because yours do. The minute I decide to vote to deny you your rights is the exact second I lay the ground work to end my own.

        I may not vote in a way that Christians approve of, but when I vote I keep in mind who my vote affects and how it affects my country. You can be sure that I will always vote for things that keep both of us choosing to live our lives on our terms, not someone else’s.

        Religions abound, not just Christian, but many many others. If someone put up a vote that would further my religion over yours, I would always vote against it. I believe in my religion (obviously) and I believe it’s right…but I don’t get to decide for you. That’s kind of what being American means.

      • I will always vote for your freedom to believe what you like. I will not always agree with what you believe and that is fine too.

      • when did I say I would not vote for your personal freedom to believe what you like. If I don’t vote for far-left progressive thought I somehow am voting against your freedom? What kind of convoluted logic is that?

      • No, I’m sorry if I gave you that idea. I don’t agree with the left either most of the time, in all fairness not the right either.

        Y’know Fred, I’ve been trying to type this for about 20 minutes and I’ve realized, I’ve given you tons of examples in which freedom and equality should be important. I don’t really think another one would do it. I don’t think you’re dumb or anything, quite the opposite (stubborn, yes…LOL).

        But if you can’t overcome yourself enough to realize that making a group of people second class citizens is wrong, that pushing them away as if they are worthless and shouldn’t exist, well….nothing I say will make you see that.

        We all don’t agree with everything. That’s kind of what makes this country great. You share your country with me. A Christian and a Pagan. I violate your religion, by choice. And we’ve had a pretty good discussion. We have just coexisted, we’ve mostly gotten along. I’m in your BSA.

        What would be any different with a gay person? He violates ONE part of your religion. I can name 6 I violate off the top of my head. Some of them are on the top 10 list. Homosexuality doesn’t even make your top 10 list LOL Dang, I just looked..I violate 8 of your 10…what makes me ok and not him?

      • You are just a little stubborn yourself don’t you think? 🙂

        JCal said: “But if you can’t overcome yourself enough to realize that making a group of people second class citizens is wrong, that pushing them away as if they are worthless and shouldn’t exist, well….nothing I say will make you see that.”

        I don’t feel I treat them as second class citizens. I just don’t want the behavior around young children and young men. We have a family member (cousin) who is a sweet person and a lesbian. She is family. She has never wanted kids and comes to all extended family reunions and is treated no different. I interact with homosexuals in business all the time. We laugh and joke and treat each other fairly. I do not visit their culture and they do not visit mine. That’s okay. I just don’t want the behavior in the upbringing of children. I just do not see that treating them as worthless. Its called live and let live to me.

        Are you considering the 10 commandments to be my Top 10? Do you really break 6 of those 😉

      • Oh, yeah, I”m definitely stubborn LOL It wasn’t meant as an insult to you, Fred. At least you’re not a wienie, changing your mind with every turn of the wind. I mean, if I could change it, it’d be great, but if I’m making you think at least you are thinking about your beliefs, even if you won’t change them.

        Well, when you assume they are all criminals because of their sexuality, yeah, you kind of are abusing them. I mean, you keep saying your protecting the boys..if they aren’t bad just for existing, then what are you protecting the boys from? You’ve voided every good thing they’ve ever done in their lives, because of something that really isn’t about you at all. I wish you’d put yourself in their place I mean, how would you feel if someone said you can’t be trusted around children because they don’t understand you? Wouldn’t that make you feel awful? Most of us have this inner desire to protect children. Including gay people. I know if someone felt they couldn’t trust me around kids it would hurt me very much. I mean, to hurt a child? ME? And it’s the most vile crime to accuse someone of, heck, even murderers kill child molesters. No proof, just accusing you of an vile crime. Even the Bible doesn’t say that homosexuals are pedophiles, just that it’s a sin. And really, everyone says “well what about that gay guy that abused that kid”..well, what about the straight guy that did? Was he a representative of all men? C’mon Fred, you don’t have to admit they’re right, but at least stop inferring they’re child molesters. What you describe with your cousin is fair..in behavior. But I’ve never met a gay person that tried to teach anyone to be gay. It’s not catching. You can’t take a class. You either are or you aren’t. Straight people are the ones having gay kids LOL Fred, I don’t mean this offensively, but when did you decide to be straight? I mean, look back honestly and think about when you starting finding girls pretty. Was that a decision? I know I didn’t look around and say to myself “I gotta choice here..hmmm”. I liked men. I had a physical attraction to men. To say gay is a choice, means that we are all attracted to both sexes and CHOSE to go with the opposite sex. And every time a person says “well, I’m with a woman because we can procreate” infers that they COULD have been with men, but wanted to have babies. Now I know you are not saying that. Think of all the different varieties of what makes a person. We are predominantly black haired, blonde, red, or brown But what about those people born white haired? They aren’t the majority, but are they bad? We have black eyes, brown eyes, hazel eyes, green eyes…but I have a little brother who has one green and one blue. That’s not exactly “normal” right? If nature can have those little irregularities…why not a same sex attraction?

        I’ve broken 7, I think..I think 6 consistently. 1 of course, I left the church and became a Pagan. 2. Well, I don’t worship an image or a statue….just other gods 3. yeah, I curse…a lot 4. I don’t have a Sabbath day 5. yeah, I break this one 6. I haven’t killed anyone 7. I’m divorced and remarried. My husband now, of almost 14 years, and I shacked up for 4 years before we got married 8. I stole once when I was 6…I was 6, but for the sake of honesty, yeah I did 9. I don’t lie about my neighbor. She gets herself in enough trouble without my help 10. I totally covet things. Motivation for me to be more successful in life. I won’t go take hers, but I want it. So I go out and earn enough to get it for myself..

      • Well, you said a lot and I do appreciate your candor and honesty. Its rare these days. You are strident. I just want to say a couple of things before I have to crash. Work comes early in the morning.

        I don’t think homosexuals are criminals. What I meant was homosexual boys with straight boys and something happens that harms a child’s perception of himself at a very impressionable age. i have watched young boys from 10 1/2 to 18 grow into young men and seen how impressionable they can be at times. I do not want anything in Scouting except positive things and a safe place for boys to grow and develop as leaders of other boys. We just support them, we do not lead them, but a negative guide can be disastrous. Do you see what I am saying?

        I don’t think all homosexuals are pedophiles either but a man-boy relationship is evil and that is my fear. I do not think they are good role models for youth either and exhibit negative behavior. We have enough to worry about in Scouting without adding homosexual leaders. I just don’t believe its a positive role model for Scouting.

        I actually have one green and one brown eye. One from each parent but folks kinda think its cool. As far as when I knew i was straight, my two oldest brothers were sailors and my next brother was in the Army. Talk was pretty hetero all the time and it seemed very natural. I’ve been married 33 years.

        Your last paragraph made me laugh out loud in a good way. What a colorful life. I fail most every day and try to do better the next. God Bless and good night..

      • You do realize jcal that you would never qualify to be a member of the BSA. If my children were in a unit that you had somehow manipulated your way into and you revealed your pagan beliefs to me I would remove them from your unit and ask the BSA what a leader like you is doing in the BSA. Do think I’m discriminating against you and that my actions are wrongful? Or would I be discriminating against you because I freely choose to raise my children in an environment of Godly people and protect them from being exposed to ungodly ideas? I wouldn’t regard you as equally qualified to lead a unit as a Godly man or woman; that’s my freedom…

      • jcal. Think about how your equality mixes with freedom; like oil and vinegar aren’t they. You want equality by dragging everyone in your world to your level at the expense of stealing someone elses freedoms. There is no such thing as equality; everyone is different in their own way, own wants, own desires and if you restrain someone else from being free to pursue their own happiness to attain your form of equality you’ve stolen their freedom. The BSA set moral standards for boys to attain during their journey through scouting; their freedom to choose the levels of moral character they want to challenge boys to achieve. You and other aggressive homosexual activists want to steal the freedom of the BSA to obtain your selfish desire to feel equal. That is wrongful and sinful behavior. If you or your boys don’t want to earn the achievements of character the BSA sets before a boy then freely choose to find your equality without stealing someone elses freedom.

      • Wallace your statement is the best on this subject. You can not cure discrimination by discriminating you cannot give equality by taking away equality. Baden Powell knew this in 1907 by embracing God and his enfluence that would propell the largest youth organization in the world to its present state. Baden Powells mission was a mission of uniting not dividing. This May 24th we are about to set a course of dividing that will impact the BSA for many years to came. This is my last comment on this issue thanks to all that have given their comments most I agree with a few that I disagree with but like all dialog all was necessary and many thanks to Bryan Wendell and his website everyone was given a unedited shot at what they believe to be true. God Bless America and the BSA. Trenton Spears

      • Many senators are homosexual? Dare I ask if you care to enlighten us which senators these might be?

      • Lindsay Graham comes to mind. I’d have to call a few folks. You really want to know that bad?

      • Ok, Fred. You got me there. I let what others say influence what I thought you were saying. Everytime you said to “protect” the boys, I took it, as many here have said it, that you were inferring homosexual = pedophile. That’s my fault. I apologize.

        I don’t agree that homosexuals are bad influences, but I can understand you believe that.I don’t agree, of course, but I understand you believe that. You’re being fair for the most part and IMO, that’s all we really have a right to ask for in our country.

        I know, I always have a lot to say. I’ve been more wordy since I’ve gone deaf. I think because those long relaxing conversations became such an ordeal for me. This is a medium where I can actually get a whole idea out without missing vital pieces of it. I don’t live in a deaf world, since I was hearing up until a couple of years ago. So my interaction is pretty limited to those who can communicate with me, and the average person typically doesn’t include knowing sign language as a priority. Not that I blame them, before I lost my hearing, I didn’t either.

      • Beth- Per Wikipedia, Pagenism is a broad term typically pertaining to …. and non-theistic religious traditions.

        Although some claim to be pagan yet believe in a higher power. BSA requires a belief in a god/higher power. Somewhere in this massive thread there was a pagen who said some believed pagans believed in a god.

        Wiccans are sometimes thrown in as a “pagen” religion but they generally believe in a god/goddess (higher power).

        Depending on who’s definition is used a a pagans personal belief, they may not qualify for membership. Religion is the belief in a god/higher power or at least is used in that context in the BSA. as they reference “believe in a higher power” in their text.

      • Yes, I know what paganism is. While some consider a pagan to be without religion, that isn’t typically the case. Many pagans are polytheistic, and wiccans can certainly be included in this category. My point was that being a pagan does not exclude someone from being in the BSA. The organization doesn’t specify a set or religions that it deems worthy.

      • Fulfillment of Duty to God is defined by a boys family, and by the other organizations that the boy’s family may belong to. Please read the BSA Declaration of Religious Principles.

        Duty to God comes into play in BSA in two primary ways: A boy must swear an oath to fulfill their Duty to God when they join Scouts, at every Scout meeting, and every time they advance in rank. In addition, during Eagle board of review, a boy must submit a letter of reference from some kind of clergy attesting that the boy has fulfilled his Duty to God. That letter can come from any recognized faith leader. The origin of the letter is determined by the Scouts family, or by any other organizations that the boy’s family may belong to.

        So yes, a boy who identifies as “Pagan” (which is a very broad term, there are many, many types of pagans) can fulfill his Duty to God if he sincerely recites the Scout Oath, and produces of letter of reference regarding his Duty to God at his Eagle board of review.

        It is possible for a Pagan to satisfy the Boy Scout Duty to God.

      • JCal said:”I know, I always have a lot to say. I’ve been more wordy since I’ve gone deaf. I think because those long relaxing conversations became such an ordeal for me. This is a medium where I can actually get a whole idea out without missing vital pieces of it. I don’t live in a deaf world, since I was hearing up until a couple of years ago. So my interaction is pretty limited to those who can communicate with me, and the average person typically doesn’t include knowing sign language as a priority. Not that I blame them, before I lost my hearing, I didn’t either.”

        Somehow missed your response.

        The Internet can be a wonderful tool for communication. I am glad for you that it allows you effective communication. i don’t think anyone on this list believes you have not communicated effectively 🙂 I pray for you that your hearing will be restored. You are obviously a complete person without it and may not miss it all.

    • What an ignorant statement.

      When Baden Powell organized Boy Scouts, Homosexuality was illegal in both Great Britain and in the USA.

      Surely you are not suggesting that Baden Powell endorsed people that were breaking the law to join Boy Scouts.

      Likewise at the time every religious denomination in Great Britain and the United States viewed homosexuality as an abhorrent sin.

      I would appreciate it if you were not so cavalier in projecting your opinions and representing them as Baden Powell’s. I find that to be rather dishonest. Don’t you?

  80. I had sent an idea for Accommodation to several BSA officials, as a potential solution months ago, then recently as a proposed resolution, with no reply:.
    URGENT – Re: Pending Resolutions
    It is apparently near the end of the submittal for Resolutions for the BSA Annual Meeting 2013. I had previously submitted to you and others, a solution regarding the Accommodation Issue, “I am not against some sort of accommodation, but I stand with others in making a stand for the current policies, with some alternate progress worked out, perhaps in a less drastic way than what is currently proposed.” In the gathering of resolutions for the National Board of Directors of the Boy Scouts of America, in voting on a resolution to remove the organization’s membership restriction regarding sexual orientation, we really need to have another resolution, regardless of the vote to change the traditional program, even if it goes either way, the accommodation could be still made under the Learning For Life entity, rather than be scrambled into the traditional BSA Scouting programs. I have drafted the possible wording of such a resolution, as follows:

    PROPOSED 2013 RESOLUTION – ACCOMMODATIONS FOR SEXUAL ORIENTATION April 15, 2013

    GIVEN: That the current Boy Scout Membership and Leadership Requirements are: The applicant must possess the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth. The applicant must also be the correct age, subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle, and abide by the Scout Oath or Promise, and the Scout Law;

    GIVEN: That a concurrent Resolution concerning the membership restrictions on sexual orientation has just been voted upon, as decided by the National Board of BSA; regardless of that previous vote, in order to accommodate alternative membership enrollment and provide a program of accommodation, a method of implementation must reasonably be enacted;

    GIVEN: That the Boy Scouts of America during 1997 to 1998 enacted a change of outdoor Exploring being moved into a new Venturing Program, as prompted by the need to have Fire/Police/other governmental Explorers out from under the BSA policy, and placed it under Learning for Life;

    GIVEN: That the traditional BSA programs and the revised Explorer program under Learning For Life have demonstrated compatibility and cooperative service over the subsequent years to the current day, have provided for the needs of their respective members with no disadvantages to either program, as an example of how distinctive programs can be compatible and operate collectively;

    BE IT RESOLVED THAT THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA: To effectively provide a program of Accommodation for those who do not meet the criteria of membership for the traditional program, for whatever reasons including sexual orientation and profession of faith in God, for those who voluntarily desire to participate in a new accommodative program, the Board of Directors of BSA hereby approves of a program to be developed under Learning For Life, that would avail those of all the merit badges, religious emblems as they may desire, and other BSA achievements. This would be under a separate rank and recognitions program, under the guidance of specialized training programs and health standards, not to be implemented within the traditional Scouting programs, but tailored to the needs of those members. Current members may, at their own purgative, be transferred into this new program without any loss in standing or position, as they had previously obtained. Summer camps and other activities will be cooperative in scheduling events for the new accommodative program, to provide the same experiences for all those within the new program.

    • David, I agree, and have also advocated creation of an inclusive Scouting program under Learning for Life. Easy enough to do, I would think, since it would simply be adapting the full-blown program BSA already has, with Exploring posts as the prototype for inclusive Scouting units. But two things are needed: Strong support for an inclusive program within the upper echelons of the BSA establishment, and strong support for an inclusive program from a network of organizations that would sponsor inclusive units. That is what Exploring had when it was split off from what is now the Venturing program.

      Perhaps after the proposed resolution is defeated in May, with no prospect that the membership policy will be revisited at any time in the near future, folks will have more interest in an alternative program within the BSA organizational family. After all, why open the door for competitors outside BSA? The network of organizations is already out there — schools and other government-sponsored community and civic organizations that over the years have been pushing away BSA because of the anti-gay and pro-God membership policies.

    • This sounds like an attempt at separate but equal. This didn’t work with water fountains or education, so why would we think it would work with scouting?

      • This is similar to the LDS program. They can join our troop but we can’t join theirs. I see no issue with this as I don’t disrespect the LDS troops and they are not being discriminated against.

      • Mike Here we go again another misinformation about who can join a LDS Church Scout Troop. The Church embraces non-mormon youth to join its troops. I have had several non mormon boys in my LDS Troop over the years. Many have become Eagle Scouts. I hope this clears up the false statements presented on LDS policies. Sincerely Trenton Spears

      • Actually doesn’t matter to me either way. That is just what I was told. I am currently trying to help the local reorganized LDS troop find some gear so I have no personal issue with them. Spent a whole training weekend with them last weekend. Prayed together over meals.

  81. I have to register a strong dissent to the proposed resolution to the debate over BSA’s membership policy. To allow gay Scouts but not gay leaders is completely self-contradictory and continues our unjustifiable confusion of homosexuality with pederasty.

    Our most important leaders are our senior Scouts. I regularly chair Eagle Scout Boards of Review for the Potomac District of the National Capital Area Council, and the young men I see have as much influence on younger Scouts as does any Scoutmaster or merit badge counselor. They are also far more likely to have matured to the point of having formed a sexual orientation than are younger Scouts. To tell a Scout — perhaps an Eagle, perhaps a Senior Patrol Leader or Junior Assistant Scoutmaster — that he is a fine role model until the magic date of his 18th birthday and that then Scouting wants no more association with him — ever — is a disservice to the leadership we have spent half a young man’s life developing and to the ideals of the organization we love.

    Even though a local option by chartered organizations is not the most popular resolution to this issue within the Scouting community, it makes the most sense. Those organizations that consider homosexuality to be a sin will still be able to maintain both their own standards and their association with Scouting. Those organizations that have severed their association with Scouting because of the current policy may feel that they can again sponsor Scout units. Most important, Scouts and their parents will be able to join units whose policies reflect their own beliefs. This “free market of ideas” will, over time, show the clear preferences of our potential members.

    Of all the options under consideration, the one reflected in the draft proposal is perhaps the worst. It puts the chartered organizations (and particularly their religious hierarchies) that support the current policy in an untenable position. It does a huge disservice both to our maturing Scout leaders as they approach their 18th birthday. It denies us the services of potential adult leaders.

    I urge the delegates to vote against the draft and to support a local option for chartered organizations.

    Yours in Scouting, Steve Fox Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 1434 Potomac, Maryland PhixitPhox@Gmail.com 301-956-5324

    • The key to making it happen is membership numbers. Growing BSA. If BSA could get back to having full institutional support in schools, that would be huge. But it can only happen for a program that is completely in line with governmental anti-discrimination policies — as Learning for Life/Exploring is.

  82. Fortunately Scouting does not base its morality strictly on right wing Christianity as
    many faiths are welcome including those that are inclusive. It’s against those faith’s beliefs (self included) to be exclusive. Morally straight to me means being ethical in ones life, period!

  83. Lets just for an instance pretend that Scouting was just Bilblical based. The Bible has many inconsistencies and things labeled as “sins” which we do not even hesitate to consider today. What gives the right or insight to pick and choose? See the following:

    Dear Dr. Laura,

    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

    I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

    a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

    b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

    c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

    e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

    f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

    g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

    h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

    i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

    j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

    I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

    Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.

    Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

    • From the other Leviticus passages I am guessing the following also needs to be added to the resolution.
      No shrimp, lobster, or crawfish on our camp outs. No camping on Saturday / Sunday (depends on who’s definition of Sabbath I guess). Oh and Scouts can only play football with a ball made from synthetic materials.

      • i always wonder what might happen if bsa somehow decided all of the bible must be followed in scouting and would actually be enforced as such. naturally there would end up being no more weekend campouts, no more lobster dinners, and well most everyone i know would be considered a sinner and probably have to be stoned. that would be a rather empty organization without any actual activities.

    • “And men should have sex and be in a loving sexual relationships with men and women should have sex with women and be in a loving and sexual relationship with women; each should lie down with each other in the same way men were created to lie with women and women with men. And like gender people shall be married together and I as God will create a covenant with you and bless your marriage and you shall be fruitful and adopt or become somehow inseminated so you can procreate in my image.” Is this the dream passage aggressive militant homosexuals are trying to write on our hearts? Yea; we don’t sell our daughters into slavery. I don’t eat purely kosher foods and follow some other biblical principles but I do live with the Holy Spirit within me as a Christian Baptized into Christ’s Church and that Spirit still tells me right and wrong and your dreams of homosexuality are wrongful and not truthful. And I teach my children the truths shared for us within God’s only Word to all of us; The Holy Bible. And Jesus Christ came to create a new covenant and that covenant never changed God’s opinion about homosexual behavior. You can have homosexual desires and not act on them; not act sinfully. I can have desires and I can choose to act on them or not; some of those desires are sinful too. I’m not demanding anyone change Godly principles so I can think I’m free to do whatever I want on this earth; the truth will always woo me back to knowing His will for my life and that is to be in a relationship with Him.

      • Wait, wait…so you INTENTIONALLY do not follow God’s teachings and get mad at everyone else because they feel God in their hearts but don’t follow the teachings perfectly? So, considering you intentionally disobey the teachings it’s ok because you have “the Holy Spirit in your heart” and that makes you better “Christian” than someone else who isn’t perfect under the teachings and also carries the Holy Spirit in their hearts?

        So it’s ok to disregard the Bible when it suits you? And the church wonders why numbers are low…THIS is the “morals” you want our boys to live by? This is “loyalty”? You’re saying they have to live by principles you do not and you get to disinclude them for not living by them, even if you CHOOSE not to live by them? Wow…just wow..Is that a beam in your eye I see?

        I’m not comfortable with my troop being told this is an appropriate way to act…

      • We already choose to “disregard” certain passages in the Bible that are no longer relevant today. Leviticus is full of them.

      • You are funny jCal. manipulator of truths. That’s your choice. I’m really not stupid enough for you to deceive me. I’ve heard all the lies so many times before and none of them take root in my heart. Yea, the Holy Spirit lives within me just like he lives within every believer. He doesn’t live within disbelievers; they haven’t welcomed Him in their hearts. Your lies really are amusing to me and make me laugh; I really have heard them all before. I look forward to the BSA changing their policy and having homosexual boys on the troop. I plan to help them all understand the truth of all of it; I plan to be a pisitive influence in their lives. They’ll learn to understand that there is an alternative to acting out with homosexual behavior. I’ll also help them in a Christian journey as our troop is a Christian bases troop full of Christians praying and giving thanks for the blessings God has given us. I couldn’t offer a young confused male teenager more than a moral alternative to living a sinful homosexual lifestyle. I’m looking forward to my new mission field. I’m free too; free to practice my religious faith under the protection of my USConstitutional Rights and Freedoms. God Bless America jcal. God Bless the BSA and its righteous mission to build Godly Character into the hearts of our future American Citizens.

      • Wallace, I don’t have to manipulate the truth. You put it up there in black and white. If a homosexual feels the Holy Spirit he is Christian. If he does not follow all of God’s laws, but still feels the Holy Spirit in his heart, then he is a Christian. And as a Christian, you must love him like you love yourself.

      • So Wallace gets to decide then which passages still apply based on what the Spirit tells him?

  84. This proposed change is a half-measure, but it may be the BSA’s last chance at change. If it fails to pass, it will be years before the issue is taken up again. By then, so many well-meaning parents, leaders and chartering organizations will have left that it will fail again, because only the bigots will remain. The BSA will be a fringe organization and fall into permanent decline and irrelevance.

    • But this proposed change is no change at all. First of all, BSA rarely, if ever, rejects gay youth from membership even now. I can’t think of one case where someone under 18 was kicked out of BSA for being gay. All of the high-profile expulsions for being gay have been of adult scouts, and parents of scouts, not youth.

      Second, and more importantly, this proposed policy continues BSA’s teaching that homosexual conduct is immoral. What really upsets parents is that BSA feels a need to teach about homosexuality at all.

      It is the parent’s responsibility, together with their church, to teach about sexuality. Teaching about sexuality is not BSA’s role. If this is the best BSA can do, families will continue fleeing BSA.

  85. This resolution is just a half-measure. But if it fails to pass in May, it may be years, even a decade or longer, before the BSA considers changing its policies again. That will be catastrophic and could cause wholesale departures by leaders, families, and chartering organizations that have advocated for change. The BSA may end up as a fringe movement, with no possible chance at recovery. The next time the BSA votes on change, it will fail again, because only the bigots will be left.

    • Scouter Dad I think that you are mistaken about the impact that people will have about lifting the ban on homosexuals in Scouting. First if the National Board decides not to lift the ban things will stay basically the same. The percentage of members that favor lifting the ban is around 30% a small number compared to the 70% that favor leaving the ban intact. Second of those 30% that support lifting the ban I believe that that only 1% will actually leave Scouting the other attributes of Scouting are to important to the needs of Americas youth. Scout Dad please don’t be the messenger of gloom and doom the BSA has survived for 103 years and it will survive this obstacle with its core beliefs intact and its mission of building the best youth organization in the United States. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • According to the BSA’s own findings, only 48% of parents of current Scouts support the existing policy, and a majority of Scout-age youths don’t support it. While the majority of leaders may still support the current policy, a majority of parents — and their sons — don’t. Many of the parents who have remained engaged with the BSA in recent years have done so in the belief that they could help the organization change from within. If this resolution fails, especially if it’s by a wide margin, the BSA will be telling them that such efforts are futile. I don’t want to see the BSA become a fringe organization, but if this resolution fails, I see no other future for it.

      • Why would you so heavily use the statistics from scout parents and scouters. Is that the same scout parents who refuse to volunteer? The same parents that majority don’t have a clue on the inner workings and issues related to running a troop or pack? The same ones who drop their kids off at the door? Very few parents vest their time in the BSA. Those who do were included in other parts of the survey as committee members, etc.

        Scouts-don’t know about your scouts but mine barely have a clue. They are called kids. It’s our job as leaders to guide them and help them learn from their experiences and mistakes along the path to adulthood. They don’t have the ability to use their life long experiences in their decision making process. If that were the case why would they need scouting and why do they need adults to supervision? I have yet to come across an activist parent who is trying to change BSA because of it’s policy.

        While the statistics are interesting and yes I am happy they were surveyed. As a percent, I expect that the return rate was much higher in the staff/volunteers vs. parents and even scouts. I don’t recall that information being provided though.

      • Scouter Dad your 48% is not correct it is more like 30% support lifting the ban on homosexuals in scouting according to the survey that was sent two months ago I believe that the 30% number will be even lower when the other organizations response will be allowed to be counted as is the case of the LDS Church that represents 24% of scout membership in America. I personally are offended by you doom and gloomers that scouting is dead without homosexuals in the program. Trenton Spears

      • mike – the actual opinions from the scouts are the most valid in this case, and certainly much more so than scout leaders or paid scouters. the majority public option supports equal rights for gays. with the equality approval opinion much more centered towards the younger generation who actually believes its wrong to discriminate.

      • Oops, left out that morally straight cannot possibly include homosexuality since it is incompatible with Scouting.

      • Scouter Dad, if “only” 48% of current Scout parents support the policy, what percentage oppose the policy? The Executive Summary doesn’t tell us, and also doesn’t tell us what percentage were undecided. 11% of the local Council Study Group was undecided or neutral, so if a similar rate applies, are we only looking at 41% (or even less) opposing it? You cite that “a majority of parents – and their sons – don’t support the policy” But you’re mixing two sets of stats – the stats showing that a “majority of parents” oppose the plan was based on a telephone polling group that included parents whose kids were not involved in scouting at all – why would their opinions be relevant if they don’t have skin in the game? Is there any indication that those parents who answered the phone survey would be involved in scouting or encourage their sons to be involved in scouting if the policy changed? The actual stats on “parents of current scouts” show that 61% of the parents of Boy Scouts support the current policy. A majority – 50% – of Cub Scout parents support the policy (a minority – 45% – oppose the policy).

    • If they leave things they way they are, maybe the BSA will be seen an an organization that stands by its principles and won’t cave into politcal correctness or special interest. Scouter Dad, just because someone does not want to be around homosexuals does not make them a bigot. It’s the freedom to associate with who you choose. I believe changing the policy will do more harm. Just leave well enough alone, ignore those who keep telling us how we should think and focus on providing the best program to the youth.

      • the largest special interest is the mormons. and yes if you don’t want to be around homosexuals you are a bigot.

      • Dewey, everybody who doesn’t like homosexuals is not a bigot, you need to be a little more tolerant and accepting, don’t you think. Little less insulting and judgmental?

      • Look, you are free to hate homosexuals..but nothing will every change the fact that it makes you a bigot. You have freedom of association, but when that association is the definition of bigotry, then you are a bigot.

        If I dislike Obama because of his policies, I’m fine. But if I dislike Obama because he’s black and I, like some Christians 50 years ago, believed they are inferior then I’m a bigot. Now, change all that to apply to homosexuals and you’ll get it.

        This isn’t the first time “Christians’ have carried a burning cross and I’m predicting that, like slavery and segregation, they will be on the losing end once again.

      • JCal, I thought we had moved past the whole “hate” thing. I guess all those people who choose not to associate with me because I don’t curse and I defend my faith are bigots and haters. I bet they would be surprised. I don’t hate anybody. I don’t like a lot of people but they go their way and I go mine. Right of Association and all that.

        So, you are equating my not wanting to associate with homosexuals equivalent with slavery and segregation. Really?! First, homosexuality is not a race so that is out. Segregation was evil. My parents lived through it and explained how evil it was. It is not evil to dislike an unnatural sex act and the people who engage in those acts. You dislike the fact that I am a bible-believer and stand by the tenets of my faith. That doesn’t make you a bigot.

        Hmmm, burning Crosses was pretty much the practice of the KKK right? So now you are classifying all Christians as cross-burning segregationists of the KKK. Well you’re getting close to bigot with that kind of thought. But, that’s not what you meant? I don’t think it was but it could certainly be construed that way much like you have accused many here.

        It is interesting how many on the other side do not credit Christians being on the front lines of most battles that bettered humanity. Most of your left-wing liberal close-minded Universities would have never been founded had it not been for Christians. we sure lost out on that one I agree. What cesspool so many formerly Christian Universities have become.

        But all that has noting to do with Boy Scout Policy. Today homosexuals are excluded not because they are evil but because their obsession with sexuality makes them incompatible with Scouting

      • Yeah, I guess we didn’t move past the hate thing. See, it’s like this:

        There’s this woman I don’t like. She doesn’t have good character. I dislike her because of her character. I do not tell others whether or not they can associate with her. I don’t call them bad people for associating with her. I do not tell everyone that if they are friends with her, they can’t be friends with me. I don’t like her, she doesn’t like me. But if we show up at a mutual friend’s party, I will not harangue her or call her names or make her uncomfortable or force her to leave by my actions or behavior. I will be kind and courteous. Our problems will not come up. I will be respectful and decent, because whether I like her or not, she’s a human being with feelings of her own. THAT’s disliking someone.

        Hate..If I hated her, I’d do all in my power to make her very existence as miserable as possible, much like many of ya’ll do to homosexuals. I’d force my friends to choose between me and her, I’d treat her as an abomination and insist everyone else does, too. Do you understand?

        Now, are you going to deny facts? The fact is, after the Civil War the Klan came into its head as a self proclaimed “Christian’ organization. Now, if we’re going to stand around here talking about who follows the Bible right, we’re fixing to tick off a lot of Christians, because if you all agreed on exactly how to follow the Bible there’d be one Christian organization. The Klan’s leaders, back in it’s original incarnation and it’s resurgence after desegregation were deacons, preachers and church leaders much of the time. They frequently delivered their pronouncements at baptist pulpits. You may not like it, but it was full of Christians.

        Many Christians fought integration by arguing racist interpretations of the Bible (this is starting to sound familiar) ie Phinehas and the Curse of Ham. Religion was used frequently especially in regards to interracial marriage. Intermarriage between whites and blacks is repulsive and averse to every sentiment of pure American spirit. It is abhorrent and repugnant to the very principles of Saxon government. It is subversive of social peace. It is destructive of moral supremacy, and ultimately this slavery of white women to black beasts will bring this nation a conflict as fatal as ever reddened the soil of Virginia or crimsoned the mountain paths of Pennsylvania…. Let us uproot and exterminate now this debasing, ultra-demoralizing, un-American and inhuman leprosy—Congressional Record, 62d. Congr., 3d. Sess., December 11, 1912, pp. 502–503 (more familiar by the second)

        Integration was believed to be the leading edge of a social revolution bent on “overthrowing God’s established order.” They associated civil rights with socialism (jeez, it’s like watching a replay). The fact that blacks were being denied justice and equality was less important than the fact that giving them justice and equality would have undermined long-established social structures. They believed that the subjugation of blacks by whites was designed by God as the desirable social order in America — that God was in effect a racist just like them.

        Fred, if I hated you for being a Christian, yes sir, I’d be a bigot. If I thought all Christians were hateful human beings, just because they are Christian, yes sir, I”d be a bigot. If I don’t choose to hang out with you because we don’t follow the same values, that’s ok. One is unreasonable (such as believing all Christians are card carrying KKK members), the other is just two people who can’t agree.

        But you cannot deny that in all three cases, it was the Christians shouting what was an abomination, what was a sin against God and therefore the world…and in each case good people came forward against them (some Christians) and equality was achieved.

        And don’t give me the “homosexual is not a race and therefore this is ok” argument. You are much too intelligent for that. Religion isn’t a race either, it’s a choice. I still wouldn’t advocate ill treatment of them.

      • I guess you’re right JCal, at least you’re not over the hate thing.

        don’t know why you have so much rage bottled up over this issue but I do not see any point in responding to historical fact about bad people doing bad things that have nothing to do with homosexuals in Scouting.

        If I had the inclination, I would post the stories of Christians on the other side of the situations you detailed. Easily researched. The largest belief in a community has always been corrupted by small-minded people for their own purposes. These people have for the most part failed during their lifetime. Christianity has not and today continues the teachings of Jesus Christ to all who will follow and better their life by it. Segregation had nothing to do with the teaching of Jesus Christ and everything to do with small-minded corrupt people.

        Today, Secular progressive thought is the prevailing “belief” in large urban communities and LGTB issues are the darling of secular progressive thought. A culture of permissiveness pervades the proponents of LGTB causes. No activities too unclean or immoral. Each person is of equal value no matter their moral deficiencies. i don’t want that for the children of my Community. Children want structure and boundaries, not indulgence of all desires.

        There is absolutely positively no correlation between oppression of blacks and opposition to the immoral behavior of homosexuals. That is an insult to an entire people. While the NAACP (National Association of Complaining People) support LGTB issues, Black people do not and I have lived with them and worked alongside them my entire life. .

        Sadly, your example of corruption to end your rant has some truth but only in the sense of bad Christians. It is not true for the vast majority of Christians who follow the Bible. You are angry at the wrong people. You should look at the members of your own community to find the hate in Society today.

      • Fred, I find your arguments sophomoric at best. So when it was used to deny black people their rights, it was wrong but when it’s used to deny homosexual people THEIR rights..it’s right? Then to top it off your next defense is “ok, we did bad stuff, but we did GOOD stuff and that makes the bad stuff alright”.

        I do not hate, not even you. I don’t go out of my way to tell people I disapprove of them, but I will say this: The Scout Law only applies to those you approve of and yeah, that makes me angry.

        My argument wasn’t to say Christians are all bad, but it was to show that this isn’t the first time you’ve coopted your book to exclude a group of people and as history has shown, it was wrong then. Back then those same people were considered an “abomination” and “a sin against God”…and thank goodness they were wrong then. And if it’s wrong then, it’s wrong now. Evil is always evil

      • JCal, your argument is pointless when you try to attach the civil rights struggle of a people fought against all manner of religions and pagans. Muslims and others sold them into slavery or kept them for themselves in Africa and Christians and non-Christians purchased them and enslaved them and Christians were a significant part of freeing them. It was not worth the time and effort to post an easily researched rejection of a ridiculous argument and I will not because it may in some way give credence to the ridiculous argument. It is an argument homosexuals are stridently trying to make and it is ridiculous so I won’t waste time with it.

        The Scout Law applies to all that follow its tenets and currently Boy Scouts of America official policy excludes homosexuality because in the belief of Boy Scouts of America, it is incompatible with the Scout Oath and Law, correct? You just refuse to accept it so you lash out at those who do. It does not suit “people like you” as you say and you would be correct.

        You are correct that evil is evil and it is insidious and evil to teach young children of Cub Scout age that sexuality should be celebrated in a character education program. A child acting on sexual identity at 6-101/2 years of age got it from somewhere. Probably his/her adult mentors and authority figures. That’s evil to me.

        I’ll take the lumps over the Christian faith that many have unfairly used but that the good that has been done far surpasses those failures. I just wish you would take the lumps for homosexual advocates who corrupt young children with sexual agendas.

      • Fred, no you BELIEVE it’s incompatible with Scout Law, that doesn’t make it true. I believe that homophobia is incompatible with Scout Law. You BELIEVE that homosexuals corrupt young children, again, that does not make it fact.And thus the problem we have here, your belief does not outweigh my belief, but my facts do. And the facts, as science has discovered, say that (as anyone with a reasoning brain would know) not all homosexuals are pedophiles. In fact, the award for most pedophiles is actually held by straight men. Knowing that would it be fair for me to assume YOU are a pedophile? I’ve never met a grown man who likes little boys and I’ve known lots of homosexuals, but I sure saw an entire ring of grown men arrested who like little girls when my cousin was molested. Would it be fair to take that example of the worst male humanity had to offer and apply it to every man? To teach it to my children? Or would I at some point have to employ logic, the logic that says that all men are not perverts? That heterosexuality does not equal pedophile?

        Fred, I’ve talked to you for some time..you are intelligent enough to get this and maybe my frustration is coming through because I’ve seen you are not a stupid man, you are capable of analogous thought. But you are willfully blind to logic when it interferes with your belief, and it’s frustrating to watch an otherwise intelligent person continually ignore the truth. I have a Christian friend that does not have a problem with this. She does not approve, but she “hates the sin, loves the sinner”, so she accepts homosexuals as part of our world, is capable of living in peace with them, is kind and courteous and neighborly. What’s the difference between her and those yelling abomination? Two things, both in the Bible “Jesus preached a message of love” and “God will judge them. It’s not my job. My job is to live a Godly life and spread the word of the Lord by example and witnessing”. See, that’s what I always thought the Bible said myself until I started attending church. Now, don’t take this to mean she approves. And if you ask her, she will tell you homosexuality is a sin. She doesn’t support civil unions because she condones homosexuality, she supports civil unions because we live in a country that is not ruled by her belief. She accepts that in order to enjoy HER freedoms, she knows she has to protect the same things that allow the rest of us freedoms.

        She has employed logic (she lives in a free country with belief systems that are not all the same, and our country supports freedom and equality) not to counter her belief but to allow her her belief. She also believes that no matter who a sinner is, or what his sin is, kindness, courtesy and respect are signs of love and love is what Jesus stood for. That woman would be just as kind to a murderer as she would a saint.

        BTW, who is celebrating sexuality? If my husband and I hold hands I am not “shoving my heterosexuality down your throat”..I’m showing my husband affection. If I ask to equality and freedom, I’m not celebrating my heterosexuality, I’m asking to stop focusing on that aspect of my life to limit my rights in this country. To be honest, if folks would stop using homosexuality to deny people rights, you’d never hear about it. Since I have rights, I do not go around saying “Hi! I’m heterosexual!”

        Before I went deaf, I never had to advertise I was hearing. Never. Now that I’m deaf, people use that as a way to exclude me or not be friends with me. Do you know how much of a pain it is, and how hurtful it is, to go up to people and be dismissed as a worthy person because I can’t hear? If I’m stupid enough to speak people think I’m dumb or retarded, because I sound funny. I don’t sound as bad as people who’ve been deaf from birth, but it’s definitely affected my speech. My feelings and my time are spared because I advertise it constantly. I’m not celebrating my deafness. I just let you know up front so the rejection is easier. When I push for an interpreter when I get pulled over (not that it happens often), I am not “shoving my deafness down his throat”..I’m trying to take advantage of rights that should be mine already and be sure that I’m not railroaded because of what I am. And if I were to ever sue someone over discriminating against me, I’m not shoving my deafness into the world’s face. Someone has used it to take advantage of me and that’s not right.

        You need to learn the difference between celebrating something, and just trying to live with the people that will abuse you over it.

      • JCal, I also believe you to be an intelligent person who makes sound arguments from your perspective and your beliefs.

        Beliefs are personal and internally based. It is obvious to me that there are some things we will never agree on or find common ground. One of them is that I support the current policy and feel it is based on a sound foundation of Youth Protection and sound values. One mistake under the proposed policy by a boy on a Campout and i would never forgive myself because I had a part in creating an environment for that mistake to happen and the resulting tragedy for a young Scout. That is why I will resign if the proposed policy is adopted. I cannot reconcile homosexual behavior with young children and young men in Scouting. Maybe you can.

        I believe homosexual advocates, homosexual guardians and homosexual-supporting teachers and authority figures including religious leaders corrupt young children by offering homosexual behavior as a life choice at an early age and encouraging homosexual tendencies. I do believe also that they believe it is right and acceptable to do so. As you say, it doesn’t make it right universally or in the eyes of many many people who have every right to oppose it stridently. I don’t hate anyone and will help anyone but I will not enable sinful behavior of another. With love I will say, you must first repent of sin to be saved. We all fail more often than we should but we try not to do it on purpose and continually.

        Participation in a private organization is not a “right.” How do you support that position? Its determined by the organization that makes the membership rules as determined by the Supreme Court. Each organization chooses those rules knowing the fallout if they deny membership to any group. That is the right in question. A “right” is not extended to someone who does not qualify to join based on sexual behavior so the organization is forced to accept them against its principles and values as stated in its policies.

        And yes, I do believe homosexuals “celebrate” their sexual orientation. I think that’s apparent to anyone familiar with today’s culture. If we did not know sexual orientation, there would be no exclusion Policy but it is “in our face” so we have no option except to oppose it directly. “open and avowed” requires letting everyone know you are “out.” At least the references I read say so.

        I “abuse” homosexuals by disagreeing? Really? When Christians are cursed at, ridiculed on national media, whose holy Saints are defecated on and called art? Plays with our Savior as a homosexual touted as genius and revolutionary. Children are harassed for their beliefs at School and ridiculed by teachers when they speak about their faith. You touch a homosexual and the whole progressive world declares you evil. My friend in federal government says they was told directly to not say a word to any LGTB no matter the behavior or their career will be at risk. What a protected class we have created in the LGTB population. Coddle, enable and support with taxpayer dollars. Sorry i think your charge of abuse is misdirected.

        If you have been discriminated against as a deaf person that is wrong and I think everyone would agree with that. That is unfortunate and should not have happened.

      • You are really amusing jcal. boxing Christians up and calling them evil. you really are lost and clueless aren’t you. It’s alright because your true spirit shines through everytime you post another message; keep posting; it helps my cause. You must be a very selfish person and feel you have some sort of a right to take and control things that don’t belong to you; The BSA doesn’t belong to you. It was created with principles of its own and anyone that wants to aspire to live within those guiding principles is welcome to join; if not then your free not to join. Just like choosing to live a life as a Christian; you’d probably love to control Christianity to serve your selfish desires too. I’m sure through your life you suffer tremendous frustration as people and institutions you try to control leave you feeling powerless by their resolve to recognize and ignore your selfish desires. That’s happening now for you too. I hope the proposal fails and the policy remains as it always has been. It belongs to all the people who choose to aspire to the BSA principles and mold their character to those principles whether your a homo or hetero. You can be a morally straight homo and not succumb to the sinful temptations you encounter. It happens all the time.

      • You really are a joke jcal. You strike out viciously at people who don’t share your opinion and then call them a bigot when they respond with truths you don’t like. If I find homosexual behavior repulsive, a truth of my heart, am I a bigot? If I hate sin so much that I ask God to forgive my sins every day through the blood of His son Jesus Christ am I a bigot? Do you think a Christian has the power through the Holy Spirit to hate homosexual behavior but love a homosexual man or woman as a neighbor? In your female liberal controlling mind do you find it so convenient to put people in a box, label the box and then throw stones at the box thinking your going to change someone with stone throwing? You do seem to have some anger issues. Do you think homosexuals find heterosexual relationships repulsive or do you think a homosexual man finds a man having an intimate sexual relationship with a woman repulsive? If a homosexual man that finds heterosexual relationships repulsive a bigot too? Do you think homosexuals are angelic and their behavior is blessed by God and God designed and created them to be in homosexual relationships? I’ve heard a couple of homosexuals on here say they’re not so crazy about being homosexuals; must be a wrongfulness about it. As a parent would I be the stupidest parent in the world to allow my 11 year old son to go off and hang out with and be a bunk mate of a homosexual 17 year old boy? Am I a bigot for fearing for my son’s safety? I bet your five boys aren’t in all in loving relationships with boys; are they? And the ones that aren’t, maybe all of them, ask them how they feel when they see two boys holding hands, making out or behaving intimately with each other do you think you can talk them out of their feelings of being repulsed? Do you think you would call your sons bigots for having natural feelings of repulsion. Don’t be so sure if your 5 sons are heterosexual that they don’t feel repulsed by homosexual behavior. Don’t be so sure that if a homosexual was lying on the side of the road and a Christian was walking down the road that the Christian wouldn’t pick him up and care for him in any way possible to help his neighbor. Do you think Fred Cooper would help a man laying on the side of the road and treat him like his neighbor even if he knew the man was a homosexual; I get a sense that he would. Do you think I would; I’ll tell you that I would. These are things you don’t seem to have the capacity to understand. This is the love of the Holy Spirit that dwells within a Christian soul. It isn’t bigotry; you have no idea what bigotry is if you think you believe that. You’ll never change the hearts and minds of Christians on this issue. It would be foolish for a Christian to lead a fellow Christian or anyone to believe homosexual behavior isn’t a sinful behavior. The Christian would be leading the sinner away from their salvation; what a foolish thing that would be to do. I’d never want to lead a sinner away from their salvation. And if the sinner doesn’t recognize the sin in their life and ask for forgiveness of that sin their walk with God is in jeopardy. I wouldn’t want to take responsibility for that diversion and manipulation of His truth.
        You are funny how you attack people on here. I get a kick out of your true ignorance of the heart of a man. I wouldn’t expect you to understand the true heart of a man; I won’t begin to think I’d understand the true heart of a woman. Their will never be equality; not part of His plan on this earth. Your wasting a lot of life trying to attain equality; find biblical ways to handle inequality. That won’t be such a waste of time.

      • dewey I wish that you would investigate the LDS Church and its position on homosexuality they invite homosexuals into the Church. The only requirement is that they cannot practice the sexual act of homosexual and they must seek repentance from the Lord.The Church ‘s position is the same with hetersexuals sex is to remain with in the sanctity of a Holy Marriege between a man and a women. So using the term bigotry is clearly unfounded against the Mormon Church when active homosexuals are dismissed from the Church not based on being homosexual but performing the sex act itself. The Church’s will use all its teachings and the doctrine of Jesus Christ to convince the sin of Homosexual is real and against all of Gods Commandments. There is a clear difference between the Church and the BSA in their role as an organization The BSA uses its private statis granted by the Supreme Court in 2000 to ban Homosexuals from their program and I believe it is the best policy because of its responsibility to serve the majority and preserve the future of its Scouting program. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • JCal, the KKK opposed Catholics as much as they did African-Americans – hard to say they represented an authentic Christian voice, any more than crackpots like the Westboro Baptist Church does. The abolitionist movement was almost entirely composed of religious believers, including Protestants, Catholics, and Jews. Many of the secular and anti-Christian voices of the time (such as Hume and Gibbon) actually spoke in favor of slavery and argued that those of African descent were sub-human, even as Christians argued for the inherent dignity of all men. There were a couple of Enlightenment writers (like Rousseau and Paine) who were honorable and opposed slavery, but the vast majority of those in the American and English abolition movement were Christians, like Dr. Beilby Porteus (the Anglican Bishop of London), the biblical scholar Granville Sharp, deacon Thomas Clarkson, the Catholic Abbe Guillame Thomas Raynal, Irish political leader Daniel O’Connell, the U.S. Baptist journalist William Lloyd Garrison, the Quaker leader George Fox, Tory member of Parliament William Wilberforce, John Wesley and other founders of Methodism, and men who risked their lives and freedom operating the underground railroad – men such as the Quaker Levi Coffin or the Methodist minister Calvin Fairbank.

        The earliest voices against slavery were those of Christians, and the first to say that slaves were of equal worth to free men was Christ and His followers. St. Paul, while in prison, used all his formidable powers as a writer to win freedom for an escaped slave, who later became a bishop. St. Augustine was the first to document the African slave trade, and used the legal system, Church funds to purchase emancipation, and finally direct action by his parish members to rescue Africans who were being seized for slavery. St. Patrick and St. Thomas spoke against the inherent evil of slavery. Numerous popes issued papal bulls excommunicating those involved in the slave trade.

        In later years, Christians and Jews (black and white) formed the backbone of the Civil Rights movement, and the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King (who himself dissuaded followers from the sin of homosexuality, even as he urged compassion for those who felt a same-sex attraction) used implicitly Christian language in his most powerful speeches. Many Christian denominations (such as the Catholic Church) have never opposed interracial marriage.

        Were individual Christians guilty of the sin of racism? Absolutely, even as atheists and members of every other faith have been. Religion has always included sinners as well as saints, that’s why it exists. But the greatest bulwark against racism has always been religion. The Ku Klux Klan was largely composed of members of the Democratic Party as well as some Baptists (and long-standing members of the Democratic Party in Congress like Robert Byrd were members), but that doesn’t mean current Democrats are bigots, or that all Democrats in the past supported the goals of the KKK. You can see how holding that they did wouldn’t make sense, right? So to claim that “Christians” as a group were responsible, then or now, for discrimination is equally ridiculous. You’re probably much too intelligent a young man to continue to hold such an absurd notion.

      • Sorry, I responded to JCal with the assumption that s/he was a young man or teenaged male, reading further I realized JCal is a woman.

      • Bobby, it wasn’t a “look at how bad Christians are”..it’s a history of using the Bible to deny people rights and being shown to be wrong. Using the Bible to justify something doesn’t mean it’s right, obviously the case in the KKK and integration. Twice before have Christians stood (and yes, I don’t mean all of the Christians) with a Bible and called people “abominations”, twice before have they used the Bible to justify treating people badly, twice before have they made the EXACT same claims…and twice before history has shown those claims to be wrong.

        But let’s not limit it. Those exact same claims (this is a sin and you are an abomination) were used to burn witches, deny women rights, and kill unbelievers. I cannot think of a single time that those EXACT claims have been used and been on the winning side of history. Not one. So what makes those claims any better now? And when are those that claim to follow God and use these arguments going to get that? In each and every case inclusion has won eventually. Now those beliefs are not a part of your church, right? You don’t believe women are inferior (well except Wallace, but I will not take him to be an example of a Christian), blacks are an abomination, witches should be burned, you don’t kill unbelievers. So, are all current Christians not really Christians? Or were those beliefs wrong? And if those beliefs were wrong in every other single point of history, why are they right now?

      • Moraly straight has NOTHING to do with gay or straigjt. Moraly straigjt was used in scputing 30 years before straight became short hand for hetrosexual..

      • If the premises of your argument are not sound, JCal, your conclusions will not be sound either. You are attempting to make the argument that because SOME Christians have used the Bible to unjustly condemn members of certain groups (which you cite as: black people, women, and witches), then all uses of a Bible to condemn sinful behavior must be also unjust. That is, as I think you will agree upon reflection, wicked crazy false bad logic.

        Clearly, the Bible condemns certain behaviors as sinful, as do other religious works. Scripture condemns someone to the extent that he or she practices those behaviors, and refuses to stop practicing them and to repent. It calls the acts themselves abominations, but the individual is called to change his or her ways and reform. This is an appropriate response to sinful behavior, and is also seen in other faiths. The few times in the NT or OT when people rather than acts are described as abominations, it is due to one’s chosen behavior, not who one is. Other forms of behavior that are condemned in the Bible in general, the New Testament, and the deposit of Faith in particular are, I trust you will agree, appropriate to condemn. Murder is wrong, and those who commit felonious murder are committing an abomination. Abortion is wrong and an abomination, as was taught from the earliest days of the Christian Church, and as we are currently seeing in the Gosnell trial. Child molestation is an abomination, as Jesus Himself said in Matthew. Jesus said a LOT of behaviors were wrong and should be condemned, and those who like to claim that he was all about the love and not about the condemnation of sin aren’t reading the same gospels as the rest of us. Jesus saved a woman who had sinned from being stoned to death by saying that those who are without sin should not throw stones, but his last words to the woman were “Go, and sin no more.” Persistence in sinful behavior was not encouraged by Jesus. Even sins that appear to be “victimless” and involve no one other than the sinner are condemned – hypocrisy, lust, sloth, pride, gluttony. As we are interconnected in all things we do, even “victimless” sins have an impact on other members of the community. Homosexuality certainly does.

        You claim that you cannot think of a single time in history when Christian claims (using the Bible as a source) that a sin is wrong and that it is an abomination was not on the losing side of history. I would first remind you that being on “the winning side of history” is not something I would consider a desirable goal. I would rather do what is right, whether I win or not.

        But if we use acting in a moral fashion, clearly the Christian faith was correct when it condemned Nazism, and even Nazis, as an abomination. The Catholic priests and Evangelical Lutheran ministers who died in “Priest’s Row” alongside their Jewish brethren at Dachau are sufficient evidence, as are the thousands of Jews who survived thanks to the Underground Railroad of the Catholic Church which saved almost a million Jews (as Einstein gratefully acknowledged). The Christian faith was correct when it condemned the Soviet genocide in the Ukraine and the Communist Chinese genocide during the Cultural Revolution. The priests and ministers and missionaries who died in their labor camps are sufficient witnesses to the truth of their claims that this belief, and the actions of the commissars, were abominations. Chattel slavery is wrong and an abomination. Judging another man by the color of his skin in wrong and is an abomination. The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, a Baptist, paid the price for his condemnation of that sin.

        As far as your specific claims, there are no Biblical teachings condemning black people, as most black Christians would be happy to inform you. Women are celebrated within the Church, achieved their highest degree of autonomy and freedom in the ancient world within the early Church (among the reasons for the high rate of Christian conversion from paganism in the early Church). Neither Witchcraft (understood as the neo-religion of Wicca, which was only founded in the last century), nor Druidism (which had no contact with 1st century Palestine, was destroyed by the pagan Romans, and left no written records of their beliefs or practices) existed in Biblical times and so was not condemned. The pagan practices at that time and place which are condemned in the Bible as “witchcraft” did involve religious practices which are an abomination and should be rightly condemned, such as infanticide, and the archaeological record in this case certainly supports scripture. You might not be aware that the Catholic Church (which had little interest in accusations of witchcraft) was the primary force that stopped the witch trials in Catholic countries. Even the Inquisitions and the Crusades, which were aberrations and were certainly not biblically based, were secular responses to Muslim conquests and incursions into Europe and the Holy Land that can and should be understood in the political context of their times, as the responses to 9/11 can be in ours.

        Clearly, if those beliefs you cite as “Christian” are not Christian, there is no need for me to defend them.

      • 1. I never said using the Bible as a source, I said using those same arguments to deny a group of people rights. Still can’t think of one.

        2. Obviously someone thought there were parts that condemned black people…they quoted at least two they thought were right. I believe I mentioned them.

        3. You’re wrong about witchcraft. The original Hebrew word was frequently translated as “witch” and used in connection with women who cast spells. Not infantcide. The Hebrew word was used in connection with other Hebrew words about those who engaged in rituals that produce supernatural results. The Formicarius and Malleus Maleficarum can still be read today.Just because they spread the rumors that they killed babies doesn’t mean they actually did. To this day some people still actually believe Jews kill non-Jewish babies…they don’t. I do believe the Catholics stopped that (and no, I don’t think they started them).

        4. Do you seriously want me to give credit to the Catholics of that time for ending two things they started? The Inquisition was a part of the justice system of the church and the Crusades started because the Christians and the Muslims were fighting over Jerusalem because they both wanted the “holy city”. Now, don’t take that to mean I don’t like Catholics. My Uncle Claude is a Jesuit priest in New Orleans. But c’mon, let’s be honest here…

        Who gets to decide who’s Christian? In those days, it was perfectly “Christian”. Just because the definition has changed since then doesn’t change what happened. And why did the definition change? Because eventually folks realized that excluding a group of people based on race, gender, religion, handicap, etc were wrong. Each time it was decided to be a bad thing and in 50 or 100 years folks will look back to now, Christians will, and say “man, we were so wrong” about gays, too. Let’s just cut out the middle man and start getting along.

        Again, that does not mean the whole of Christianity is wrong. I actually don’t see the Bible as a problem at all, and I like stories about Jesus. Episcopalians accept gays, several reformed churches of Europe, Eastern Orthodoxy, Community of Christ, some of the Lutheran churches, Mennonite churches, Presbyterians, the list gets longer.Are they not Christian? Who decides whose Christian?

    • Scouter Dad, I respect your right to disagree. Just as I stand by BSA’s right to maintain standards, evaluate those standards from time to time, and my right to a Point of View. My point of view is this. Having a faith-based perspective is not bigotry. To reduce my faith to that level is bigotry, or ignorance, on your part. Many of us remain involved in Scouting because of its principles, and we have a right to hold to our standards for whatever reason. As a very active current adult leader, I am concerned about the following impacts. 1 – The increased potential for bullying that could result from this change. 2 – The increased potential for inappropriate behavior and additional load on adult leaders to manage that (same reason as we don’t allow cross gender tenting or showering in our co-ed youth programs) 3 – Loss of perspective of our founding principles. One of the replies to this blog commented about young people being more tolerant. As an Eagle Scout and the father of an Eagle Scout, I see this directly in my son’s feelings about this. However, I also see that he has been innundated with the “okayness” of homosexuality through our schools and the media. It is those same schools and media that tend to bash judeo-christian faith and values. So I have to look at those preference statistics in that context. Unfortunately, this seems to be a critical juncture in our society, and the results of this (due to the choices of man) may be fractious. Regardless of which point of view prevails, there will be people who will be disgruntled and leave. I wish that I were wise enough to have a magic answer, but to my thinking backing away from what in my belief is “Morally Straight” is not that magic answer.

      • ” Regardless of which point of view prevails, there will be people who will be disgruntled and leave.”

        Why is this true? Tell me who would leave if BSA reverted to its 1984 position:

        “Education for sexuality belongs in the home… Scouters should reinforce rather than contradict what is being taught in the family and by the youth’s religious leaders” BSA Statement on Human Sexuality, 1984

        Isn’t that a statement that all Scouts, of all stripes, can agree with?

        Scouts with various, even contradictory, religious persuasions have gotten along for over 100 years. Why do you think we cannot get along now? Leave things that belong in church in church. Bring things that belong in Scouts to Scouts. Then we will get along just fine.

        Scouts have gotten along fine in the past. Why not now?

    • The BSA has once again placed a price on it’s core values. I one statement adult leaders may not be openly gay. However on the other hand a boy or girl can rise thought the ranks and earn the Eagle, Ranger or Quartermaster awards. The highest award scouting has to offer. Turn 21 they may not become leaders. I’m I missing something in this statement.

      • Try this interpretation… No child left behind even if they are questioning their sexuality. As they mature they may or may not change decide they are gay and we will not hold it against them as they decide. Whereas practicing homosexuality is among other immoral acts such as theft, bullying, adultery, etc. and the assumption is that youth will make poor choices from time to time. Unless it occurs to the extreme (active homosexual, won’t quite stealing, etc.) the youth can still hold membership.

        But BSA holds adults to a higher standard since they are adults and assume that they have the maturity to know right from wrong since they are adults. Since Homosexuality is immoral as is theft, bullying, adultery, etc. and as adults BSA holds them to a higher standard in a leadership/mentoring role.

        That’s my take on their proposed policy.

      • Your interpretation sure might be right, but it brings up for me shades of gray. I had imagined that the new policy would mean that even if the boy had a boyfriend he could be a Scout. By using “active homosexual” you seem to be suggesting that a gay boy could be a Scout only if he was just thinking about it, but not if he actually did it. And maybe that is what it means. One thing I’m not sure about is the significance of that word “alone” at the very end. Maybe that’s why it’s there.

  86. I think it is pretty clear that this proposed resolution is dead on arrival, so we need to think about the aftermath.

    BSA will come out of this with its restrictive membership policy reaffirmed more strongly and openly than ever. And after the very public self-flagellation it has put itself through, BSA will be an even bigger target for public ridicule, and more and more Americans will strike BSA from their list of worthwhile activities for themselves and their children.

    So I think it is time for the councils, chartered organizations, and Scouters who oppose any change to membership policies to put up or shut up: They got the restrictive membership policy they want, so it is up to them to increase membership — now.

    • We’ve been having those discussions. I am personally on the fence. We might lose our Charter. I have an LGBT individual who is trying to convince our Chartered Org to keep our unit regardless. I have two Jewish friends who (reflecting upon their experience of discrimination as children) have drawn a line in the sand and said they are out of Scouting and will not participate. I have had close friends accuse me of being Homophobic because of my involvement in Scouting. That truly hurt (probably more than I let them know).

      This has been very, very painful and I’ll have to make the tough decision. The BSA will have examined the issue, thought hard on it, and voted to stick with a belief structure that I cannot support. Most painful is that the fear and hatred I see here (in so many comments) will have won. I don’t think I can just ignore that.

      I don’t know if I’d be able to follow through on plans to be on Woodbadge staff this fall, or if I would continue as Scoutmaster come rechartering time (I’m quite certain that if our current Chartered Org drops us, and we end up where I think we might – at a fundamentalist evangelical church – I would not be asked to continue as a leader).

      Those who have a more apocalyptic view claim that Scouting in New England may essentially die: councils merged down to a handful, camps closed, staffs gutted.

      • Hi Kevin. Your unit is in a tough position. I have personally been on the fence for several years now about whether I would remain active in the BSA because of the current policy.

        Where I have come down is that it is important for those who oppose the current policy to stay. The reason is that if we all leave, there will be no incentive for the BSA to adapt. They will have already lost us. The voice for change from within will no longer exist. We know that acceptance of people that are considered by some to be ‘different’ is a slow process. I will continue to speak up for what I believe is right, and I believe that there will be a change, hopefully sooner than later.

    • p.s. There is one rumor floating around that the Circle 10 District has been offered a $25,000,000 gift that is contingent on the BSA affirming its current policy. That leaves me speechless.

  87. So, one of the things I learned in Scouting — along with ways to put my love of my country into action, how to be an honorable person, how to build a fire, how to lead other people, how to serve my community, and many other ways to make a positive impact in the world — was self respect. And that self respect will not allow me to stand here and take the sort of hateful, personal abuse leveled at me by people like “SR”.

    I have wronged no one here. I served Scouting loyally throughout my teenage years, which is why I was awarded the Eagle rank, why my troop elected me Senior Patrol Leader and to the Order of the Arrow, and why my Lodge bestowed upon me the Vigil Honor. I have put the values of Scouting into practice in my daily life, and work at a non-profit institution to try to make the world a better place. I am a regular churchgoer and Christian, though Scouting isn’t a Christian organization — it embraces folks from a myriad of faiths, including religions like Buddhism that do not necessarily posit a personal deity.

    I am not a “pervert,” as being gay is well within the normative range of human sexuality (as it is with most mammals). I am certainly not a pedarist or a danger to children, as I have been accused of on this site.

    Because I am gay, just like tens of thousands of current Scouts, and countless thousands of previous Scouts, including many Eagles, many of the “leaders” of Scouting on this board have attacked my charactered, belittled my Scouting efforts, accused me of felonious crimes, and basically spewed hate at me — someone they have never met. I have endeavored to respond to their uncharitable, unkind, unfriendly, dishonorable attacks on me in a polite and conversational manner, to no avail. If this sort of rigid worldview, which only accepts as valid those beliefs about morality that exactly conform to those held by right-wing evangelical Christians or Mormons, is what Scouting is today, then it is a very different, and much poorer, organization than the one I loved as a young man.

    And if the brittle, hateful attitudes flung at me on here are representative of the adult leadership of Scouting as it exists today, then the organization will die.

    • Carter, I applaud you for your achievements and service in Scouting. You have clearly grown up to become an honorable adult, in part because of your participation in Scouting.

      There are certainly many Scouters, here and in the ‘real’ Scouting world that are much more welcoming and tolerant of those that are not like them, for whatever reason. I certainly hope that those that have assailed you here are truly just a very vocal minority on this board and not representative of Scouting as a whole. I can’t say that I know any Scouters with the attitudes we have seen expressed here, but I can only speak to my own small area of the nation.

      Thank you for your contributions to this message board. Thank you for your contributions to Scouting.

    • And you’re just a moron. There’s nothing in the oath or law that precludes him from being a boy scout. Aside from your personal or religious interpretations of the words within.

      • Do the words “morally straight” mean anything to you? I do believe they are part of the scout oath.

      • The handbook definition of morally straight: To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance. This should be what morally straight means for all of us, in a Scouting context, since this is the BSA definition.

  88. In all my reading on this thread and other sources, I have yet to see what I am to do as a scout master regarding proposed policy regarding sleeping arrangements for a gay boy. Whether I support the change or not I assume there will be some directive from above on this.

    In explorers, girls can’t sleep with boys. I did see someone suggest nothing would happen if gay boys and straight boys slept together. But It is inappropriate for the aforementioned as well as for Adult male leaders to sleep with non-spouse adult female leaders regardless whether they are attracted to each other or not.

    It is deemed inappropriate for me as an adult leader to sleep with a boy that is not my son for protection of both of us.

    I am led to believe by some statements that nothing would never happen if a gay boy.is allowed to sleep with other boys. Somehow do gay boys have more self-control than straight boys and girls or adult men and women?

    I would go as far as to guess they may suggest 3 or more in a tent so you have 2 deep.for protection of either the gay boy or the straight boy. Billy Graham was noted for leaving his office door open if a female was present to prevent any notion of impropriety.

    If I permit the boys to sleep together knowing that one of them is gay and”may” be attracted to other boys… and if something does happen, does that make me liable? If Council or national says it is ok are they not liable? Will the BSA insurance company cover me? Has the insurance company been asked?

    These are serious questions that national needs to answer.

    • Not sure why the 3 thumbs down with no comments to explain. I present a very serious question that scout leaders on all sides can agree needs answered.

      Perhaps they don’t have an answer or know the answer and don’t want to admit it is an issue that needs resolved.

      • Do you put ADHD boys with non ADHD? How about leftys with rightys? Have any problems with snorers and non snorers? Should not be an issue. If a lefty inappropriately touches a righty (or the reverse), then there is an issue. Unfortunately there are a whole lot of folks who just don’t get it. The BSA has youth protection rules. Follow them.

      • Mike, I agree with you that “National” is leaving us (where the rubber meets the road) out to dry on this issue. I’ve had experience where a supposedly straight girl invited her friend on a Sailing trip and we caught them engaging in Lesbion behavior. We terminated her membership on the spot.
        Sea Scout Adult leadership starts @ 21, so do we have to accept a 18 year old who has “come out”?

    • This is very simple. Gay boys sleep with all the other boys. If something happens, it is handled the same way, with the same liability, than if a straight boy did it. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with misbehavior, and an insurance company would not treat a gay boy who misbehaves any different than a straight boy.

      Any other questions?

      • So let’s unpack the claims that we have nothing to fear from putting someone who says he has a sexual attraction to someone of the same sex, in a tent with a member of that very same sex:

        The Left, the media and popular culture tell us over and over that teenagers have no control over their hormones and their sex drives. Because of this, we are told, abstinence and chastity programs for youths are useless (and are always mocked and portrayed as hypocritical in sitcoms and films); we as a culture have to provide condoms to youth; provide mandatory sex education; enable easy access to abortion (including enabling abortion without the parents’ knowledge); and ensure easy access to abortifacients for all youth.

        The Center for Disease Control (CDC)’s metastudy showed that youths who identify as gay or bisexual display radically higher levels of virtually every risk-taking and unhealthy behavior compared to straight youth:

        “The study, “Sexual Identity, Sex of Sexual Contacts, and Health Risk Behaviors Among Students in Grades 9–12 in Selected Sites—Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance, United States, 2001–2009,” was published as a Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report Surveillance Summary. Findings across 76 health risks in the following 10 categories are highlighted:

        “Behaviors that contribute to unintentional injuries (e.g., rarely or never wore a seat belt)
        Behaviors that contribute to violence (e.g., did not go to school because of safety concerns)
        Behaviors related to attempted suicide (e.g., made a suicide plan)
        Tobacco use (e.g., ever smoked cigarettes)
        Alcohol use (e.g., binge drinking)
        Other drug use (e.g., current marijuana use)
        Sexual behaviors (e.g., condom use)
        Dietary behaviors (e.g., ate vegetables 3 or more times per day)
        Physical activity and sedentary behaviors (e.g., physically active at least 60 minutes per day for 7 days)
        Weight management (e.g., did not eat for 24 hours or more to lose weight or to keep from gaining weight)
        Across the sites that assessed sexual identity, gay or lesbian students had higher prevalence rates for 49 percent to 90 percent of all health risks measured. Specifically, gay or lesbian students had higher rates for seven of the 10 health risk categories (behaviors that contribute to violence, behaviors related to attempted suicide, tobacco use, alcohol use, other drug use, sexual behaviors, and weight management).

        “Similarly, bisexual students had higher prevalence rates for 57 percent to 86 percent of all health risks measured. They also had higher rates for eight of the 10 health risk categories (behaviors that contribute to unintentional injuries, behaviors that contribute to violence, behaviors related to attempted suicide, tobacco use, alcohol use, other drug use, sexual behaviors, and weight management).”

        (You can read the entire CDC report here: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/ss/ss60e0606.pdf. If you work with youths, you SHOULD read the report.)

        AND YET boys who self-identify as gay will somehow magically exhibit the restraint and self-control in sexual matters that we are regularly told by the Left that the young as a whole don’t possess?

      • Ok, Bobby. That makes complete sense. Now, can you tell me how much of this is due to being gay and how much is due to depression, feelings of worthlessness, abuse at the hands of their fellow citizens, having to hide who they are, etc?

        Abused kids have similar numbers to these here. Are they just bad kids who were justifiably abused because obviously they are a bunch of drug using, alcoholic, risk taking brats or are do they engage in risky behavior because they were abuse and treated like trash?

    • You most likely won’t know that a boy is gay until he decides to tell others and generally he does not tell others until his late teens. For the majority of time that a boy is a Scout it is doubtful that anyone but the boy will know that he is gay. Trying to provide sleeping arrangements with the premise that one of the boys in a given troop is gay would be premature. How will you handle it? Again most likely you will not know if you have a gay boy in your Troop. This policy proposal is to help that boy that may be outed so that he can finish his time in Scouting and benefit from the program that he has stuck with.

      In short there can be very little preplanning for such a circumstance. Especially since the population of gay youth that would be involved in scouting is less than ten percent of the overall population. A Troop that has 20 boys would most likely have 1 to 2 boys on the high side.

      • I can’t tell you that, JCal, nor can any social scientist. All we can do is note correlations, develop possible explanations, then look at the data to see if it supports a theory. It may be that same-sex attraction is genetically linked to a propensity for unhealthy, risk-seeking behaviors in some fashion we don’t understand yet. Certainly, many of the young men I knew growing up who identified as gay died young, for reasons that seemed to have little to do with bullying or parental disapproval and more to do with the kind of risk-seeking behavior identified in the government’s report. It may be that the side-effect of a desire to enter into a sterile relationship with someone of the same sex and to deny the complementary nature of a normal male-female relationship, may have negative effects on one’s self-image regardless of how society as a whole perceives same-sex relationships.

        We know that in cultures where the culture and the local government supports same-sex marriage and has harsh penalties against bullying and harassment of gay people, the suicide rate for gay men is as high or higher than in American society and as compared to straight men in the same society (such as the Netherlands). So I don’t think the scientific research supports your idea.

      • Bobby, you’ll have to link that study because the only one I can find the guy actually states that while he cannot confirm for sure, it seems that the wide spread social stigma and stressors of discrimination and rejection are most likely the cause. So apparently even where it’s legal they are still experiencing some discrimination.

        Looking up fairly healthy countries that show complete acceptance, even Spain,which is far more tolerant than even the Netherlands says that discrimination is still a problem. Not still there, still a problem. Netherlands also state that discrimination is still a problem. Sweden says that though gays are also completely accepted by law the rate of discrimination against gays is on a par with the US’.

        So far, I’m not seeing it supporting what you said. However, I’m willing to change my mind if you can prove otherwise.

  89. David Richard [Obiwan] Yes you are wrong about the founder of the Boy Scouts Lord Baden Powell his mission was to organize a program exclusively for boys. However Baden set the standards for the boy scouts to have a believe in a supreme being or a believe in a divine source for spiritual enlightment. The reason churches were promoting scouting they knew that faith based morals would be a great source and would certainly compatible to the standards of scouting. David churches did not take over scouting as you claim in the 1900’s The BSA was formed in 1910 so that Americas youth could develop the morals and character that Great Briton’s Youth had enjoyed since 1907. When Baden formed the Boy Scouts churches were part of the founding of this great Scouting organization. David I take great sadness as to your labeling the BSA as a homophobic organization. There are millions of dedicated Scouts and Leaders that spend time and money making the BSA the best it can be. Slandering the BSA and these great leaders is a desperate attempt to dishonor 103 years of service by such loyal members. For what reason ! a homosexual agenda that 70% of BSA members reject. David there is no evidence that Baden would except homosexuals into the Boy Scout program not one shred of testimony to support that mistruth. Sincerely,
    Trenton Spears

  90. Here is something I posted on a Facebook topic on the subject.

    Why are we involved in Boy Scouts? Is it about knots and getting the Silver Beaver award and socializing with other adults or are we there for the boys? Let’s take the Eagle BoR scenario out of this, let’s think of a confused 15 year old boy who is struggling with his identity? His buddies are all talking about girls but that just doesn’t interest him. He can’t talk to mom and dad yet. He wants and needs a trusted adult to discuss what’s going on in his mind. As a Scoutmaster I would hope that a Scout would find that in me. Am I qualified to counsel him on such matters, probably not. Am I able to sit and listen to him and let him know that I’m there for him? You bet. Knowing that the BSA would force me to dismiss him from the Troop will put a barrier up between this young man and me at a time when he needs supportive adults in his life.

    Boy Scouts isn’t only about the bright young man, class president, captain of the football or track team with a professional dad and stay at home mom in the suburbs who is well on his way to Eagle and a good 4 year college and likely post graduate school and a great career ahead of him. We certainly have had and will continue to have many of these young men in Scouts. It is also about the kid who comes from a broken home, doesn’t get stellar grades in school, isn’t involved in sports. Boy Scouts may be the only place he has positive adult male role models in his life. We’ve had kids like that through our affluent suburban troop. We paid their way through summer camp, on to the ski trip and the ultimate Scout adventure a trip to Philmont. He’s not gay, but that is beside the point. He’s a young adult that could have easily fallen in with the wrong crowd and given his demographic dropped out of high school and gotten into a lot of trouble. Instead with the positive support he had in Boy Scouts he’s off to community college, working a decent entry level job and trying to improve his circumstances.

    I ask each and every one of you that is being critical of this tough decision before the Boy Scouts why are you involved? Yes I was involved to do some cool things with my son including a trip to Alaska, a Live Aboard SCUBA adventure at Sea Base and last summer a trip to Philmont. But my son is aged out, why do I stick around? Sure the fellowship with the other parents is good, but I have a chance to make a difference in a young man’s life. One of the men most influential in my son’s life was the man that served as Scoutmaster before I did. I’ll bet in 40 years if you ask my son who are some of the people that made a difference in his life Mark B will be at or near the top of the list.

    A few months ago I was in my home town for my uncle’s memorial service. While there I attended the church I grew up in and the charter org for my troop. After church I ran into my Scoutmaster, 88 years old or so, WWII vet, served in Burma, Scoutmaster for 10 of the 80+ years my troop has been in existence. We had a nice chat, and as I shook his hand I had to thank him for his years of service. It is easy as a parent to gripe about what the SM does or doesn’t do. How he doesn’t meet your ideal, but unless you’re willing to step up to the plate, keep your complaints to yourself.

    • Absolutely Jeff! Thank you so much for what you do in service to Scouting and the boys in your Troop!

  91. Something that doesn’t seemed to be talked about much regarding this policy change is the fact that allowing homosexual boys to be with heterosexual boys is basically suggesting that its OK to put teenage boys and teenage girls together in the same tent or shower room. The physical attraction of the opposite sex is probably the biggest reason that there is a separation of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. Why not just have all Scouts (boys and girls) together if we are going to allow humans that are physically attracted to each other to sleep in the same tent and shower together at camp events?

    Surely we can all agree that teenagers of any sexual preference have raging (nearly uncontrollable) hormones and any of them would jump at the chance to spend more intimate time with the people they are attracted to. This concept of physical attraction is something that causes the most concern for me and my local chartered organization. It’s not about being inclusive, its about protecting youth (gay or straight) from making bad decisions within the organization they are a part of.

    • My long post elsewhere (you’ll never find it lol) says the same thing. It is a logistics thing. I had 3 three thumbs down on it but no negative comments (1 positive). It is a serious question that National needs to address.

      The assumption from some comments would lead us to believe that gay boys have more self control than straight boys (not allowed to sleep w/ girls) or even adults (not appropriate for male leaders to sleep with female non spouse leaders).

      So the policy passes. Now what do I do as a Scout master and does national have a directive policy they will establish? Have they discussed it with the bsa liability insurance company? Am I covered by liability insurance if I knowingly put a gay boy with a straight boy and something does happen however rare?

      Serious questions of procedure that need addressed.

      • Joebob8000 and Mike, the difference between putting a gay boy with a straight boy in a tent and putting a boy with a girl in a tent is that boys and girls are mutually attracted to each other. A straight boy is not at all attracted to a gay boy. In the highly unlikely event that a gay boy were to make a pass at a straight boy, the straight boy would rebuff him. As for showers, I’ve not seen any camps where they don’t provide for privacy in the form of individual shower stalls with doors or curtains. If community showers still exist, simply assign different times for everyone to use them, as my troop does at the camps where there are unisex facilities (I am usually the only female). In my experience, most boys avoid showering anyway! lol

    • ” The physical attraction of the opposite sex is probably the biggest reason that there is a separation of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts”

      The United States is probably the last Western country that separates Boy and Girl Scouts.

      The reason Boy and Girl Scouts is separate in the U.S. is purely historic. The two groups were founded at two different times by two different people, and they never merged.

      Separating boys and girls for sleeping or bathing is not primarily done because of sexual attraction. It is done out of respect for modesty and privacy. There are many other youth programs, across the U.S. and in other countries, where boys and girls tent together and bathe together. It is a non-issue.

    • Y’all keep asking this question and while Mike MAY have a point about liability and such (I don’t know much about that aspect)..my only question is:

      Are you guys NOT capable of problem solving? I mean, I saw the question and thought of several options immediately. I mean, I’m honestly not TRYING to be rude, but does someone need to lead you by the hand for everything? It’s just a matter of common sense…

      • I love problem solving, the problem is you can’t identify the problem to solve. It might be easy if you could identify exactly which scouts were gay and which ones were straight and then divide them appropriately, but its just not that easy. Gay scouts aren’t required to specify their orientation, so how can you possibly divide them? I find it much easier to separate boys from girls than I can separate gay and straight thoughts. I can’t see thoughts, can you?

        Personally, I would be very bothered if my 14 year old daughter was required to sleep in a tent with two 14 year old boys. That situation has problems written all over it. Yes, liability is an issue, but so is the potential life damaging effects of a sexual encounter in what is supposed to be a safe environment.

      • But under this ruling, they would be allowed to admit that they’re gay, right now you have boys hiding their sexuality and currently being tented with straight boys…soooo..which point are you arguing exactly?

      • assuming the policy actually is changed you should treat a gay scout exactly no different than a straight scout. by treating them unequally you would be creating the unsafe environment.

    • What do you think happens ag gym clasd, track practice, or public restrooms. 1 in 13 people are gay. How many times have you changed ona locker room. This is the norm.

      • Didn’t know gym involved sleeping in tents. Those examples are controlled large group venues and boys and girls do not shower together. Not the same as 2 kids in a tent over night.

  92. jcal, your one in a million and i have great faith in that. your insignifance in swaying the BSA from changing our membership policy to what you selfishly want it to be to serve your desires should provide you with tremendous frustration for many many years to come. I really get a kick out if the silly ideas you try to put out there to advocate your homosexual agenda. Nobody here is attacking you in spite of your many attacks against the BSA and its membership. people are getting sick if the media trying to dictate our culture to us and watch carefully the rebellion against the media. I actually think the aggresive militant homosexual activists are soing more harm to their cause than any good at this point. You should be satisfied with the tolerance you’ve been given and quit thinking your going to convince heterosexual people from wholeheartedly accepting homosexual behavior as anything less than repulsive. It goes against the deepest part of the human spirit and can’t be changed; a truth acknowledged by God.

    • Wallace, you are a product of extreme ignorance. You have assumed I am a homosexual male, with no proof, which seems standard for the course with you ROFLMAO I’m a married mother of 5 children. In fact, I’m sure there’s a link connected with my name that will take you to my blog (which I haven’t updated in a year or so) that shows that I am a late deafened, married, mother of five. But hey, don’t let the facts stop you! ROFL

      But again, the more you think badly of me, the more proud I am of that fact.

      • Typical of a woman to think they can control everything in their lives. I’m sure the control issues you have provided you a lifetime of tremendous frustration at times. You are funny to me though; the way you try to put me in a box. You can try and continually fail as you have no idea who I am.

      • It’s truly hilarious to see a comment that starts with ‘typical… woman…’ and conclude with something about trying to put said commentator ‘in a box.’

      • When did I ever say you were a homosexual male jcal? You are an aggressive homosexual militant activist though. If you weren’t you would leave the BSA alone and quit trying to control the decisions made to do their best to do their duty to God and our Country to protect the boys who choose freely to become members if the BSA. If the BSA is forced against their will to change their policy I wonder if you or any other advocates terrorizing the BSA into accepting homosexuals will be anywhere around when an 11 year old boy is molested or raped by a 17 year old openly homosexual scout? This will happen one day and you will be partly responsible for having pushed for the circumstance that allowed it to happen.

      • I do not have an aggressive militant homosexual activism. I am simply doing what you are, though I’m more in the right, insisting that a secular organization stop putting one religion above another’s, as according to BP’s own words. I’m asking them to follow their Founder’s ideals.

        “Though we hold no brief for any one form of belief over another, we see a way to helping all by carrying the same principle into practice as is now being employed in other branches of education…” Baden Powell

        You’re the one trying to shove your religion into a secular organization, not me, Pharisee.

    • mainstream media is a reflection of what our current culture is. that is simply how they decided what to show, what people want, and what will sell.

      jcal is hardly an “aggressive militant homosexual activists” but merely someone fighting for equal treatment for everyone. there hasn’t been anything even close to tolerance for gays on the part of the bsa. they have continuously opposed the public’s opinions of any minority group and instead stood by only the version of morality prescribed by their largest chartered partner.

      • Equality; ha! another pretty word that doesn’t apply to an earthly existance. Everyone is different to some degree. There will always be inequality. However the way we live with and relate to eachother as unequals is biblical. Biblical principles teach how we should interact with eachother as people who will never be equals. But if can figure out how to attain financial equality with eachother let me know. I’m certainly willing to start with equalizing incomes.. Wait; that’ll be socialism and even the “socialist” countries are unequal as there are the thieves and liars and those who are deceived to think its alright? they aren’t that stupid either.

        jcal is an agressive homosexual militant activist. You’d think she would be proudly claiming the title. If you talk like one and stand with them you are one; or is she denying everything she’s said? I won’t speak for her and I doubt you need to either. She’s loud and clear and mighty funny to me… the Boy Scouts aren’t for girls anyway; there’s no way she could ever understand. Its a boy thing; a heteroboy thing.

      • Wallace, equality is for everyone. If the situation was reversed and homosexuals were trying to ship you out of America then I’d be a militant Christian activist, even if I think you’re wrong. It’s called freedom and equality, which I believe everyone deserves. That’s what our Constitution says.

        There’s no such thing as a “boy thing”. You guys aren’t that complicated, I’ve raised 1, currently raising 2 more and am married to a male. The Boy Scouts don’t do anything my daddy and grandpa hadn’t already taught me. I have the handbook in front of me and there’s no big “boy” secret. Don’t make it out to be some big secret boy thing. Men are no mystery at all LOL

        I wouldn’t put up with homosexuals standing outside your church and yelling hate at you, and I don’t put up with you doing it to them every time they get together somewhere with their supporters. Instead of living in fear of the homosexual agenda, I found out what it was (while meeting some wonderful people) and it turns out, the supposed “homosexual agenda” is equality. Then put me down for furthering the homosexual agenda proudly.

        If that makes me a militant homosexual activist, then I carry the title with a big smile. I always enjoy helping my fellow American’s freedom and equality.

      • Live tormented by all your inevitable failures finding equality on this earth; there will never be equality but you go ahead and keep dreaming. Men will always rule the world because that’s just their nature. Men will never follow a woman as a leader because that’s just their nature; an unchangeable truth. You’ll never really understand the true nature of a man; only think you do. But so what; that doesn’t matter. As far as the BSA goes this isn’t even your debate as its an organization for boys and the men who choose to lead them in their journey to manhood. It was never BP’s intent that women even be part of the BSA and I agree for the very reasons you’ve shown in your words and behavior in this blog. A womans spirit isn’t compatible with what men teach boys in scouting; your a girl and you really don’t understand as much as you believe you do. But your arrogant attitude shines through and that prideful arrogance is exactly what will orevent you from ever truly having any understanding if the true nature of a mans heart. But that’s ok because its not important that you understand because being a woman you’ll never be viewed by men as being their leader; its a natural thing.. a truth of a mans heart that you think you understand so well.

      • I wonder why your Wood Badge training featured that wonderful piece from Margaret Thatcher on leadership?

  93. I would like to encourage anyone who disagrees with the BSA’s current policy, as well as their proposed resolution, to check out some alternative scouting programs in the U.S. instead, such as the Baden-Powell Service Association, a “traditional scouting” organization that is also open & inclusive (as well as co-ed!). To find out more, please visit our website at http://bpsa-us.org/ Thank you! Yours in Traditional Scouting,

    • Thanks for the info. It’s nice to know that other options exist. It would be great if everyone who wants to change the BSA policy would leave to join your group. Love your pic.

      • There are also many Christian specific scouting type groups, you are more than welcome to leave the secular BSA and join one of them, since they will obviously align entirely with your belief system. Awana, Calvinist Cadet Corp, Pathfinders, Christian Royal Rangers (world wide group), Royal Ambassadors, and Christian Service Brigade.

      • Or you can join both groups and be a Leader in both if their principles are compatible with your beliefs as I did. Served as Director of Royal Ambassadors and currently Scoutmaster of the Boy Scout Troop. Two very useful programs for today’s youth. Scouts meet on Monday night and RA’s meet on Wednesday night. The RA’s just finished a successful Camporee with over 500 boys in friendly competition. We see RA’a as inreach and Scouts as Outreach. RA’s is mission-training with an outdoor campcraft section very similar to Boy Scouts.

      • just because a great number of people completely disagree with bsa policy doesn’t mean they should leave. many have taken the difficult road of actually fighting to take back the boy scouts from some special interest religious groups. the bpsa as jeff outlined has attracted mainly those that have just accepted the fact that despite their best efforts scouting as bp intended is almost gone from the current bsa. it was only by reforming from the original outlines and teachings set by bp, as well as the other founders were we able to create a strong traditional outdoor scouting program.

  94. Most of the resolution is fine and well said. However it utterly fails in two places and destroys its own integrity. Here is the first problem which is in the preamble leading up to the resolution.:

    “AND WHEREAS, Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting; and
    WHEREAS, the Boy Scouts of America does not have an agenda on the matter of sexual orientation, and resolving this complex issue is not the role of the organization, nor may any member use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda…”

    It is absurd to say that “any sexual conduct” is “contrary to the virtues of Scouting” and then immediately follow that with a contradictory statement. It is true that we can and should avoid a political position or agenda, but politics is not the issue. We do have a position, including a social position on sexual morality. We just stated part of it: “Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting…”

    The other problem here is the use of the term “sexual orientation.” This term is open ended and undefined and should never appear in any BSA statement of any kind, more on this below.

    A bit of a switch-a-roo is in play here because we are making this political by not standing on Scouting’s ethics and morals. Because these statements have a political tint to them we are falling into a political trap of own making.

    The second problem is in the resolution itself:

    “Youth membership in the Boy Scouts of America is open to all youth who meet the specific membership requirements to join the Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, Sea Scout, and Venturing programs. Membership in any program of the Boy Scouts of America requires the youth member to (a) subscribe to and abide by the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law, (b) subscribe to and abide by the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle (duty to God), and (c) demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.”

    What is a “sexual orientation?” Sexual orientation has no real definition. It is a broad and expanding range of behaviors that includes: homosexuality, pedophilia, exhibitionism, voyeurism, bestiality, bisexuality, frotteurism, fetishism (of multiple sorts), gender identity disorder, klismaphilia, necrophilia, partialism, sexual sadism, sexual masochism, transgenderism, transsexuality… and this is a limited list. There are more of these “orientations” than I have listed and more of them are on the way.

    Let us look at a concrete example by picking one of the orientations. Example: Youth “A” is by all means a good Scout in every other way, but his sexual orientation or preference is exhibitionism. Are we seriously going to ignore this one behavior? Are we going to retain a Scout who exposes his private body parts in public? Have we lost our minds?

    What we are really talking about here is sexual morality. Sexual orientation is the vague language of political correctness. This resolution, if passed, will open the door to all sorts of un-Scout-like behaviors and will harm if not end our Scouting ethic. We are, in the words of our Founder, “a society for the propagation of morals.” We are an ethics and morals based organization. This includes sexual morality and it must include sexual behaviors. We cannot compartmentalize our morals.

    Please, National Council voters do not accept this resolution.

    • Your list is wrong. Sexual orientation the sex you “orient to” or are attracted to. It is four types: straight sex (opposite sex), queer sex (same sex), bisexual (both sexes), and asexual (not being attracted to anyone, ever). Now, some things fall under those, in multiple places. Fetishism can be something as simple as a straight man who ONLY dates Asian women. He would be a fetishist, but are you going to kick him out for dating Asian women only? Fetishism is an obsessive fascination that usually presents in a sexual way (not always). It can’t be an orientation and it can be pretty innocent. I don’t think a guy who dates ONLY Asian women is all that weird, personally. He just really likes them. But a straight guy with a shoe fetish? Little weird to me, and any of your business how? However, many women have a shoe fetish that is NOT sexual in nature…but she has a fetish..she gone, too?

      An orientation involves a biolological sex (male or female) who consents, Something pedophilia, necrophilia, and bestiality do not. Gender identity disorder has nothing to do with sex at all. Klismaphilia is a sexual act, it’s like saying sex is a sexual orientation (guys, unless you’re sturdy don’t look that up, take my word for it LOL I need to bleach my brain…). This also is relevant to sexual sadism, masochism, voyeurism, and exhibitionism. All are sexual acts, not sexual orientations. Transgender and transexual both have nothing to do with sex and are actually GENDER identities, not sexual orientations. You are confusing sex (male/female) with sexual orientation (attraction) and gender (social understanding of identity). Example: If you raise a boy as a girl and present him to the world as a girl then his GENDER is girl, but his sex is boy and his sexual orientation may be straight (though he most likely will be confused, I know I would be).

      First you have to understand what you’re talking about before you can start judging what’s right and wrong.

      • JCal, your familiarity with fetishes, etc has me concerned. You must watch too much late night HBO. You stay in your campsite and I in mine and we will be just fine lol!

      • It’s knowledge. I enjoy learning and I really enjoy knowing what I’m talking about. Also if I’m going to argue for or against something, I like to to be intelligent about it and have knowledge of that subject. I live in the world, I have heard many many things before I lost my hearing and have learned of many many more since then. I was raised in the Bible belt by a Christian mother (not always a good one), a Druidic father (both still together), and a practicing Native American grandmother. I live among Muslims, Mormons, Christians, Hindus and Atheists. I’ve had gay and transgender friends. I’ve known a variety of humanity because I don’t lock myself into a single mindset and because of that I’ve had the pleasure of learning many wonderful things and people and yes, sometimes the displeasure of learning about things I’d rather not be familiar with (I’m more concerned with the guy who rattles off klismaphilia, I had to look that up…and I thought I had no more firsts). I won’t give you a list of those. I question, everything, constantly. What is that, why is that, how is that? Where did it come from? (Origins are a big hobby of mine).

        I’m on a constant search for knowledge, and while I may wish I could unknow some of it, I never regret looking.

      • Some of the things I listed are considered paraphilias and not, at this time, fully accepted as sexual orientations. But the moevment in that direction is clear. Homosexuality was at one time a paraphilia, but now it has moved into the range of normative, non-paraphilia. The APA’s book on these issues continues to move behaviors out of the paraphilia range and into the normative range. The new book coming out soon DVM-5 continues on this slide of moving paraphilias by creating a new catagory. There will be “paraphilas” that are “normal” and then those that will continue to be disorders.

        One of the worst possible cases of this movement is the drive to make pedophilia a sexual orientation. Here is just one of many examples that can be easily found demonstrating this, from the LA Times Newspaper: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/01/many-experts-now-view-pedophilia-as-a-sexual-orientation-google-hangout.html

      • I’ve looked up what you claim and it’s not true. There are TWO, only two, psychologists going around pushing this and they are interviewed repeatedly (we should keep an eye on those two guys). There are two more I’ve found interviewed, but they were only interviewed one time. I found nothing suggesting the DSM-5 will be adding it as an orientation.It is still a mental disorder.

        Now, I DID find where some democrat in California put it on a bill to make it an orientation and the Republicans tried to strike it down, but the Dems wouldn’t let them. One of the VERY few times I can be sad the Republicans lost and one of the MANY times I can ask the Dems “WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???”

    • It is a contradiction for BSA to state that sexual activity by youth of Scouting age is contrary to Scouting virtues, and then in the next paragraph to state that BSA does not promote or advance any social or political position.

      I don’t know any parent who wants BSA telling my son what the correct age to become sexually active is. Teaching my son about sex is the job of me and my pastor.

    • sexual orientation should have no actual bearing on scouting because we somehow have to assume that all scouts under 18 somehow aren’t allowed to have any sexual contact with anyone of either the same or opposite sex. i dont think bsa particularly cares that a very large majority of this countries population has sex before that time, or out of marriage. any changes on sexuality policy options really should have zero affect you your local troop other than ending some homophobia. as no one should be having sex on scout outings, its just that simple.

      also exhibitionism is not a sexual orientation. nudity is perfectly acceptable in some settings like particular beaches, and specialty camps/resorts.

  95. This resolution is, for lack of a better term, ridiculous. “You should respect and defend the rights of all people”. The Executive Board should be ashamed of itself for trying to “split the baby”.

    Get with the times, please, and get rid of this unnecessary distraction to the mission of the BSA.

  96. Some commenters here really need to study up on the Scout Oath and Law. Keep it civil people.

  97. Please tell me the difference between letting a homosexual boy join Boy Scouts and letting a heterosexual boy join Girl Scouts. Do the Girl Scouts allow this practice? Should the Boy Scouts allow heterosexual girls to join if they change the policy? Why not? What’s the difference?

    • The Girl Scouts’ policy is based on sex/gender, not on sexual orientation. You are not the first person in this conversation who has been unsure about the difference between sex/gender (boy vs. girl) and orientation (to whom one is attracted), but I think most people are clear about the difference. “I’m a girl” or “I’m a boy” is not an orientation.

      • I’m clear on the difference between gender and orientation. I’m asking about the reason for the division between the genders. Don’t we divide the genders to assist in avoiding potential issues between the attraction of two people. Doesn’t a gay boy have the same orientation as a straight girl? Don’t they both have sexual attraction to boys? Why not allow straight girls in boy scouts then?

      • Instead of wondering about GSUSA, which is structured entirely differently, why not check our own co-ed program, Venturing, for solutions?

      • the boy/girl scouts were separated in this country due to the belief that boys and girls should have a completely different type of program and catering to often sexist policies. they were in no way made based on whom anyone was attracted to.

  98. If the resolution passes, what the gays really want is to say being homosexual is also “morally straight” I am sorry. But after a decade as a scoutmaster… I have will disband my troop! I will have no part of being responsible for boys going camping with a gay scout! Hey, if you don’t like what I said, there are plenty of opportunities to lead a troop! But we will not be camping!

    • if you are so repulsed by being around gay people you probably shouldn’t be in any organization with people at all.

  99. This is my first visit here.
    I’m a registered Scouter, and former Scout. I have been in the same Troop for 43 consecutive years. (My Troop is 67 years old.) I have my Eagle, as well as several Palms. I have witnessed many things as a Scout & as a Scouter. Unfortunately, I have seen sexual abuse happen in scouting.
    One of the biggest things I find that has NOT been discussed directly is the true mission goal of Scouting. It’s to guide young boys into adulthood & teach them life lessons.
    Nowhere is it our mission to discuss sexual preferences, or guide any youth in either direction. It’s not our job as adult leaders to discuss sexuality at all.
    Yet, if we believe the “stats” where 70% oppose a change, and in the one where 48% disagree with current policy, I have to question the numbers. Some of the “stats” say a lot of youth want the change.
    Ok, we all work with youth,, and how many times have we had them come back to us & proclaim they made a mistake or were wrong about anything?
    Any youth does not have the maturity of the wisdom of years as a sexually mature person to make decisions. Especially ones where open discussions about sexual preferences would happen if the policy changes.
    The BSA spent a lot of money several years ago in a legal battle all the way to the Supreme Court to keep us a private organization. As a private organization they have the right to restrict membership to anyone who doesn’t abide by the rules of the organization.
    A few years back, I had to re-apply as an adult leader to get a “security background check.” One of the mandatory questions asked for my Social Security number. That is private information, and according to Federal law, is not to be used for identifying a person. I took my concerns to my local council, then to the regional, and all the way to national HQ. I was told that yes, my information is private & they can not demand my SSN. HOWEVER,, since the BSA is a private organization, they CAN as a policy request it. And if a person refuses, they can (and would) deny membership.
    I had nothing to hide, yet I was concerned about an outside security firm having my SSN & feared a leak of information to unauthorized persons.
    But I had a choice to make. Stay in Scouting by obeying their rules, or get out & protect my private information. I chose to stay in Scouting.

    All this discussion about gays in Scouting FORCES people to openly discuss their sexual preferences.
    As an adult leader, I am not permitted to discuss any sexual subject. But what if a boy asks a question in an open meeting? It has to be answered somehow.
    This country was founded on solid beliefs in personal liberty. Yet,,, in todays society, we are forced to discuss many subjects publically that are better left to professionals, or in the case of youth, the parents.
    Where are my rights as a person who believes in modesty? In keeping my sexual preferences private? In respecting the privacy of others?
    Too many people want to force the BSA to change & allow gays in. They have spent years & lots of money trying to force the BSA to change. Well, I can say this, if the policy changes,, I know the change will have a big ripple effect. In some areas, we will see adults cheer & push for their child to “come out” & join scouting. But I will also predict that many youth will never see any BSA activity. I was speaking with a customer the other day. He is a pastor. His grandkids (2 boys, ages 6 & 9) want to join scouting. He told them to wait, as he is watching the vote closely. If the policy changes,, those 2 boys will not be in scouting.
    Personally, if it changes,, I will hang around a few years to see what happens. But my monetary support to the local council, and to national programs will stop. I will support my Troop and the boys I see that need help. But, if I see any case where a boy steps up & wants to discuss what it means to be gay or whatever, I will quietly resign my position as a leader. I will not put myself in a position to be charged with any inappropriate discussion or behavior.
    Basically if the policy changes,, yes, we’ll see a change in Scouting. But I fear it will be in a huge reduction of qualified leaders & ultimately in the loss of opportunities for many young boys. I speak of this because of my many discussions with a lot of the local adults in my area.

    The policy does not need to change.

    If people who want gay scouts & scouters in an organization that teaches youth lessons & skills about life I have a suggestion.
    Why not create an organization just FOR gay scouts & scouters. Why force another organization to change for a minority? Why not create your own organization?
    Spend all this energy & money on a different organization that is a PRIVATE organization, and you can make the policies as you see fit.
    That way, we could use the financial resources of the BSA for helping more boys rather than fighting a group wanting hope & change.

    • “All this discussion about gays in Scouting FORCES people to openly discuss their sexual preferences.”

      if we remove the current policy, there would be no need for this discussion of sexual orientation. It is the BSA itself that has made this an issue by having the policy in the first place.

      “As an adult leader, I am not permitted to discuss any sexual subject. But what if a boy asks a question in an open meeting? It has to be answered somehow.”

      I would answer a question of this nature by stating that it’s an inappropriate topic for a scout meeting.

      • ” But what if a boy asks a question in an open meeting? It has to be answered somehow.”

        This answer always works:

        “That’s a great question, Tommy. Do you have an adult in your family, an elder at church, or a counselor at school that you can bring that up with? By the way, how’s that square not coming?”

  100. I give to the National Capital Area Council. I am against changing the ban or even diluting it. People who don’t like the present policy can form their own scouting organization. They don’t have to force their ideas down everyone elses’ throats. The Boy Scouts should stand up for the moral principles they claim to support rather than giving in to political correctness. I have received much literature from the National Capital Area Council about how the Boy Scouts build character and how the organization contributes to good moral values. Homosexuality does neither. Does the literature I have received mean anything?

    • Quite frankly, being heterosexual does nothing for morality, either. I’ve known a number of disreputable, immoral, or amoral people in my time here on earth, and their sexual orientation had nothing to do with their character. If anything, their smug superiority was fed by their religion.

    • i repeat for Todd: “Since Boys Scout policy says homosexuality is incompatible with Scouting, we can rest assured it does not include being homosexual.”

      Follow the logic.

      • Fred, there is no logic to the current policy. The current policy is counter to parts of the Scout Oath for those whose religion teaches tolerance and inclusion and in Scouting all religions are welcome. BSA created this problem and they need to fix it.

        . . . To do my duty to God . . .
        Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs. . .
        . . . . . . . . .
        and morally straight.
        To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.

      • Todd, My statement on Policy seems logical to me. The Policy itself seems logical to me.

        My religion teaches tolerance of those who would repent and sin no more, not sinners wallowing in sin. A practicing homosexual would be that. If that homosexual is open and avowed, he is living in and with Sin and unrepentant. A repentant non-practicing homosexual is welcome in our faith. You brought religion into it and that is my religion and how it looks at unrepentant sinners.

        Todd said “Scouting all religions are welcome. BSA created this problem and they need to fix it.” Yes, but BSA has standards and many Churches in error do not.

        Todd said: “To do my duty to God,.. Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs. . .” That’s good but homosexuality is incompatible with Scouting. didn’t think you wanted Christians to have any influence.
        . . . . . . . . .
        Todd said : “and morally straight…To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.” A homosexual fails on “clean in actions” and a homosexual is incompatible with Scouting.

      • Fred may well believe that his faith is the right one; that’s common among certain faiths. But he is not arguing that the Boy Scouts needs to be governed by his faith. Fred’s argument is that he, and many he knows, joined BSA because it was in accord with his faith (not of his faith, but with policies acceptable to his faith), and he doesn’t want them to change. He feels that the policies work well for him.

        Fred also seems to live in a place where all the Scouters are in agreement about this issue. That is very different from the place where I live and probably from the place where you live. Maybe instead of a local option, we needed a council option, or a region option.

      • Well stated Karen. Exactly as I believe. Thank you.

        I am not trying to force my opinions on anyone but stating what Scouting believes where i live. If I was in the minority religion where I live, I would voice the same opinion. The Community where I live is about 50% secular but secular people here by and large respect that Troops with Christian Leadership will teach their sons values and principles they may not hold but their son will benefit from and their son will make his own decision in his own time. My experience has been that children of today that are in Scouting here reflect more of their grandparents beliefs if they are in a troubled family situation.

        I do believe Christianity is the only way, but Scouting is a Program, not a faith and I easily separate.the two. .

        I don’t like local option. Morality should be easy to identify. if not, there is a deeper problem that needs to be brought out and vetted.

      • Here is a place we totally disagree. You say Episcopalian is a Christian religion. It was an adherent to the Christian faith in the beginning as far as I can tell. Since that time, ordination of women as been approved in the episcopalian church and then later lesbians,homosexuals, transgender and bi-sexual. By taking those actions, the Church is in direct contradiction with Bible.

        Our Pack and Troop left the Episcopalian church when they ordained homosexual people. .

        Each person is entitled to their theology. No one is trying to take that away from anyone. I see them as a Church in error but that has nothing to do with Scouting policy except Episcoplians would accept homosexuals and I would not.

      • This is another of those points where we fall into a conversation-killing circularity. BSA is absolutely nonsectarian, and expects youth to follow their own faith community’s training. Group A says, “Wait, your policy requires my kids to go against their church training. We need to end this policy to allow all Scouts to practice their church’s faith.” Group B replies, “Well, we’re nonsectarian, but your church isn’t a church — it’s in error.” How do we know it’s in error? Because if it weren’t in error, it would agree with the policy.

        Mainstream Christian churches, churches hundreds of years old, churches that brought forth America’s founders — these faiths are teaching that in their understanding of Scripture they believe we should stop excluding gay people. BSA could decide to give up its century-old nonsectarian policy — policy is always subject to change. It could decide to modify its membership policy so that it is really nonsectarian. But to say, “We’re nonsectarian, but your church is wrong,” this is not the BSA’s job. An argument that says we don’t have to listen to what the Episcopalians, Congregationalists, etc., say because they have left the True Faith — this is wrong for an absolutely nonsectarian organization.

      • Karen, My response was to the proposition that Episcopalian is a practicing Christian Church today. I do not believe it is and should not be looked to for Christian positions on Biblical teaching. Their doctrine has strayed away from biblical teaching to more liberal and progressive cultural pursuits. My Church is far closer to Biblical teaching and Scouting Policy, so we follow it. We will choose Bible over Progressive thought any day and that is what this homosexuality inclusion is about in my opinion.

        No reference to Scouting Policy since I do not believe BSA is a Church or Christian organization.

      • Fred, you say “No reference to Scouting Policy since I do not believe BSA is a Church or Christian organization”, but the only valid (in your eyes) definition of morality is the one defined by your particular brand of Christian belief. And therefore, when the Scout Oath refers to “morally straight” it *must* be the version you believe in.

        Am I understanding that correctly? If I am, do you not see the disconnect? “Scouting is not a Christian organisation but *this particular statement* must be as my Christian church teaches, no exceptions.”

        I’m genuinely curious if you think that is a consistent statement.

      • 1. Is not BSA’s policy that homosexuality is incompatible with Scouting? Can we agree on that? You can look it up if you want to, it’s been cited on this convo many time. Scouting is a program that teaches young men moral principles and values.

        2. My Church believes that homosexuality is immoral and incompatible with any Program that teaches young men moral principles and values.

        3. I serve in both programs and their beliefs are completely compatible. You don’t have to be a Church to think open homosexuality is incompatible with a Program that teaches young men moral principles and values. BSA is one.

        Clear enough?

      • Obviously it’s not incompatible…otherwise there’d be no resolution to change it.

      • The fact that they are entertaining changing it suggests it’s not incompatible. If it was really incompatible it wouldn’t even be a thought to change it or a discussion.

      • So if the motion is defeated, homosexuality will be even more incompatible since there will be no review or change in Policy for a long period of time? Without a proposal on the table, the issue will be settled? Somehow I don’t think that will be the case.

      • No no, wait…I’m going to ask you a question you’ll hate, but it has a point and it’s not to insult you, I promise.

        Think of it like this: You’re a Christian, right? Would you ever even mildly have even half of a thought of worshiping God’s enemy?

        Now, I’m going to assume you say no, right?It is the direct OPPOSITE of all you believe. That is COMPLETELY incompatible with EVERYTHING you believe..so you would never, under ANY circumstances consider that.

        So if homosexuality is COMPLETELY incompatible with EVERYTHING the BSA stands for…why are they considering it?

      • Good question. I would say the money-grubbing Key 3 and the amoral money-grubbing National Board are the reason we are considering this proposal. As I said a long time ago on this blog, they have turned away from the most experienced Scouts and Scouters and embrace the least experienced Scouters and most immature scouts for this resolution.

      • Circular logic. If they don’t agree with you, they’re a bunch of money grubbing greedy guts, but if they vote against it they’re all of a sudden proper appreciators of your PoV? Fred, the very fact that they entertain the idea, even if they decide against, ought to make them money grubbing greedy guts…And that’s a violation of everything the BSA stands for for sure.

      • So … “no” then; you don’t think it’s a consistent statement to say “Scouting is not a Christian organization but some things must be as *my particular **Christian** church* teaches.” Nice tap-dancing.

      • Whatever DavidE. You don’t have to be a Church to agree with Christian principles and values. If you don’t get it, I can’t help you.

      • The Christian church I belong to (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) doesn’t believe that homosexuality in itself is immoral. The proposed policy change is entirely consistent with *my* church’s beliefs and teachings. I suppose that puts us in the “fallen” camp as far as you’re concerned.

        So we’re back to the question of if Scouting is not a church or Christian organization, how is it only the beliefs you and people like you subscribe to are valid for “morally straight”?

        I suppose there’s no answer for that, but the more tolerant among us would welcome holders of more conservative views “in the tent” so to speak. It’s apparent the reverse is not true.

      • Any one of you who support homosexual inclusion are more than welcome under the tent if you would stop being activists for homosexual inclusion. Since sexuality is not acceptable in any Scouting event, this should be a compromise you are willing to make.

      • Then you’ll be fine letting gays in? Because if sexuality is not allowed at any Scouting event, it again becomes none of your business.

      • You are good. No. I said “stop being activists for homosexual inclusion.” That would mean stop being activists for homosexual inclusion so they would be no homosexuals to be included.

      • People advocating for inclusion aren’t asking for people to be allowed to engage in sexual activity at scouting events.

      • So, Fred, we can be allowed “in the tent” if we favor inclusion of homosexual Scouts and leaders so long as no *actual* homosexuals end up in Scouting? That’s quite the generous attitude.

        You seem awfully concerned with “sexuality” at Scouting events. Since heterosexuals also exhibit “sexuality”, shouldn’t we ban them also?

      • As much fun as this has been, I’m really feeling like this is a “trying to teach a pig to sing” thing – it wastes my time and annoys the pig.

    • I had a look at this site http://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsoath.asp, but Australian English must be different to American English because no where is there the word “gay”, “homosexual”.

      How ever
      . . . and morally straight.

      To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.

      So where does the above statement say this only applies if you are heterosexual

      So far on this site I haven’t seen much of this “respect and defend the rights of all people”, everyone seems to want to name call, slander, be little and not respect each others thoughts.

      • You know, you creeped another discussion on an American Scouting Board and I asked you then why you were here. You are not American and can only defend the polices of a country governed by the Crown. You liberal judge told you what to think there and you bought it hook, line and sinker. Support your own policies in you own land and leave us to sort ours out on our own as you have no voice and are an interloper.

      • “You should respect and defend the rights of all people.” is incompatible with fred’s religion and therefore he thinks its his job to decide what others are are allowed to do.

      • Another episode of Dewey gets creative 😉 I really have no idea what you are talking about but keep trying if you must to twist my words to weaken the argument that membership in a private group is not a right. I’ll defend your constitutional rights but not something that is not a right to begin with. Not even a nice try

        Australia might be the place for you though.

  101. oh my. HK Edgerton? A slavery and KKK apologist? How is this in any way relevant to this issue?

  102. A question a little off topic since most of you spruce on about Christian beliefs. Is the BSA a religious group

    • in several legal briefs, including one in a 1992 case in Kansas and another in 1998, lawyers for the Boy Scouts put in writing that the Scouts are a religious organization. Here’s the quote in ’98:

      “Although Boy Scouts of America is not a religious sect, it is religious, and, while the local council is not a house of worship like a church or a synagogue, it is a religious organization.”

      Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108666,00.html#ixzz2RKdLWTh5

  103. BSA should have seen the folly of choosing one church’s beliefs over another in the 1990s, when they first started doing it. No other national youth program has bungled this issue as bad as BSA has. Rather than debating homosexuality, we should be debating the competency of BSA National leadership that has brought us to this point.

    • This is really a good point. When they dip into religion they limit their growth. As it is, many Christian organizations have claimed that at the rate of the church’s current decline, 2050 will see a loss of about half. Those same organizations say that 60% of the youth who identify as “Christian” no longer attend church. Out of that 60%, 65% of them have abandoned the church and most of it’s practices, while 38% have abandoned all of it. This means those kids will not be teaching their children Christianity. I know my husband will answer on a poll that he is “Christian”, but that man hasn’t seen a Bible or been in a church since high school (other than for weddings or funerals). Meanwhile Unitarian Universalism is slowly rising.

      Now, if the BSA sees these numbers and still wants to limit themselves to one religion, they are not thinking of the organization.

      Again, these numbers come from Christian organizations worried about the loss of their flock, so I myself am inclined to believe these numbers to be true.

      • You sound so excited and proud to report your informamtion with regard to children being raised in families outside the Christian faith jcal. what a pitiful shame that would be. That’s why its so important that I share my Christian faith with the scouts I’m in contact with. You won’t bridle my freedom to speak and my freedom to practice my Christian faith. But more than 83 % of Americans identify themselves as Christian and probably a much higher number in the BSA. What a let down our generation is to the one behind us to not have left them with a culture of faith in God and the salvation His son graciously gave us through His sacrifice and resurection. I am thankful my children have the Holy Spirit living within them. They understand the value of all Christianity has for their lives. God will always woo us back to Him and I’m thankful to be in a nation that allows us to be free to answer His calls. Check how the membership in the non-denomenational evangelical church movement are growing. homosexuals have hijacked Presby USA, Episcopalean, Lutheran, Jewish reform for themselves and Christians are leaving to Evangelical Christian churches that align their disciplines to biblical principles; that’s divine intervention. God always has His Victory so don’t get yourself too excited about what your so happy about thinking you’ve helped rob our youth of. God has His ways of making Himself known to them and He’ll have His way of revealing Himself to you in your silent world. It will be glorious you can be sure of that. Its jist His way.. I’ve been blessed to see His hand in many things in my life.. Your in for some amazing experiences in your life. He will surely show you just how much He truly does love you.

      • Wallace, quit assigning emotions to me. I know you think you are God, but you actually do not know what I’m feeling right now.

        I never denied that a large portion still identify as “Christian”, what was stated by a group of Christian organizations is that 65% of those that have left the church practice minimal “Christian” practices and 38% practice NONE. Like my husband, who always answers “Christian” under religion but abandoned the church in high school, does not read his Bible, or even pray. If I was a Christian, I would not be proud of that nor would I take it as a sign of my church being in a good way. This group is saying that in less than 40 years current church participation will be at half it’s current state because it is DECLINING. They are concerned.

        Some non-denominational churches ARE growing, I just said Unitarian Universalism is slowly growing, because they accept EVERYONE. I can, as a Pagan, join that church and practice my Pagan religion right next to a Christian and a gay man. They are NON-denominational, not Christian. LOL People are disassociating with traditional churches. You should ask yourself why.

      • The fastest growing religious category in the U.S. is “Spiritual, but not Religious”. If you combine those folks with all religious folks, you get to 96% of the U.S. population is still spiritual in one manner or another.

        That is exactly the 96% of the U.S. that BSA was designed to appeal to. “The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizenship without recognizing an obligation to God.” Current research show that 96% of Americans believe in God of one form or another.

        Considering that non-traditional spiritual beliefs about God are among the fastest growing segment of the U.S., and the U.S. is becoming home to an increasing number of non-Christian religious folks, the logical response of BSA should be to double-down on its non-sectarian posture, and ensure that BSA is open and welcoming to anyone who adheres to a spiritual belief, the same way that BSA was able to be open and welcoming to Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Mormons in 1913. At a time when those disparate religions were hardly talking to each other, BSA gave them a way to work together on the common goal of developing healthy boys.

        But instead of re-enforcing the non-sectarian posture that made BSA great, BSA has increasingly been forcing the moral teachings of a minority of conservative churches onto all of BSA.

        Favoring one religious belief at the expense of others is completely outside the spirit of Scouting, and is completely contrary to the entire history of BSA. This posture has already led to a weakening of BSA over the last 20 years, and will quickly lead to BSA’s irrelevance in American life if it continues.

  104. Many of you are imposing your morals and views on Lord Baden Powell. Again I say that is wrong and disrespectful of you to do so.

    Here are some of the things that he said?

    “No man can be really good, if he doesn’t believe in God and he doesn’t follow His laws. This is why all Scouts must have a religion”.
    (Scouting for Boys, 1908)

    “Scouting has been described as “a new religion”. It’s not, of course, a new religion: it’s just the application to religious formation of the principle now accepted in non-religious formation, i.e. to point out a precise aim to the boy and give him the way to learn and practice by himself” [Quoted in Taccuino, a collection of B-P’s writings and essays published in Italy. Dated January 1912]

    “There is no religious side to the [Scout] Movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is on becoming aware of God and His Service”
    (Headquarter’s Gazette – November 1920)

    “By Religion I mean not just a formal homage tributed to a Divinity, but a deeper akcnowledgment of God as a Being perpetually inside and around us, and the consequent higher level of thought and action in His service”
    (ibidem)

    “Scout Activities are the means by which you can lead the most accomplished street urchin to nobler feelings, and have the faith in God start in him”
    (Aids to Scoutmastership, 1919)

    “Love of God, love of your neighbour and respect of oneself as God’s servant are the basis for any form of religion”
    (ibidem)

    “Many difficulties may arise while defining religious formation in a Movement such as ours, where many religions coexist; so, the details of the various forms of expressing the duty to God must be left to thoses responsibles of each single association. We insist however on observance and practice of that form of religion the boys profess”
    (ibidem)

    “Nowadays the actions of a large part of youths are guided just in a small part by religious convictions. That can be attributed for the most to the fact that in the boy’s religious formation the worry was on teaching instead of educating”.
    (ibidem)

    “If you really wish to find the way towards success, i.e. your happiness, you must give a religious base to your life. It’s not simply attending church or knowing history or comprehend theology. Many men are sincerely religious almost without knowing it or having studied these things. Religion, briefly explained, means: First: know who God is Second: use to the best the life He gave us, and do what He expects from us. This means mostly doing something for the others.”
    (Rovering to Success, 1922)

    “I have been asked to describe in more detail what I had in my mind regarding religion when I founded Scouting and Guiding. I have been asked `Why must religion enter in it?’. My answer has been that religion needn’t enter, because it’s already inside. It is already the fundamental factor pervading Scouting and Guiding.”
    (from a speech to Scout and Guide commissaries, July 2, 1926)
    The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. What sect or denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents’ wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence, whatever form of religion the boy professes.

    “Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity”

    “….We aim for the practice of Christianity in their everyday life and dealings, and not mearly the profession of theology on Sundays…. The co-operation of tiny sea insects has brought about the formation of coral islands. No enterprise is too big where there is goodwill and co-operation carrying it out. Every day we are turning away boys anxious to join the Movement, because we have no men or women to take them in hand. There is a vast reserve of loyal patriotism and Christian spirit lying dormant in our nation today, mainly because it sees no direct opportunity for expressing itself. Here in this joyous brotherhood there is a vast opportunity open to all in a happy work that shows the results under your hands and a work that is worth while because it gives every man his chance of service for his fellow-men and for God.” – (Scouting For Boys, 1908)

    “No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have a religion….Religion seems a very simple thing: First: Love and Serve God. Second: Love and serve your neighbour.” – (Scouting For Boys, 1908)
    “Father of us all, We meet before Thee here today, numerous in the lands we come from and in the races we represent, but one in our Brotherhood under Thy Divine Fatherhood.
    We come before Thee with hearts grateful and gladdened by the many blessings Thou hast granted us and thankful that our Movement has prospered as acceptable in Thy sight. In return we would lay on Thine Altar, as our humble thank-offering, such sacrifice as we can make of self in service to others. We ask that during our communion here together we may, under Thy Divine Inspiration, gain a widened outlook, a clearer vision of all that lies open before us and of our opportunity. Thus we may then go forth with strengthened faith to carry on our mission of heightening the ideals and powers of manhood, and of helping through closer understanding to bring about Thy happier Rule of Peace and Goodwill upon Earth.”

  105. Discrimination has no place in Scouting.

    To that end, Scouts for Equality is releasing our proposal to change the BSA’s membership standards. Like this issue, it’s simple and straightforward.

    WHEREAS, as reflected in the Scout Oath and Law, BSA has established high standards of conduct for its members and adult leaders. Sexual promiscuity, inappropriate sexual behavior, inappropriate discussion of matters of sexuality, the use of Scouting as a forum for discussion of, or advocacy of particular views with respect to, matters of sexuality, and/or overt sexual behavior—regardless of sexual orientation—are inconsistent with these standards of conduct.

    NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED THAT:

    Effective this date, May 24, 2013, the current BSA policy is hereby modified, consistent with BSA’s historical standards and principles, to expressly implement a policy of nondiscrimination and continue a focus on inappropriate conduct, by changing the current language:

    From: “While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of . . . volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA,”

    To: “Membership and adult leadership positions are open to persons regardless of their sexual orientation, subject to compliance with Scouting’s standards of conduct. BSA does not inquire about the sexual orientation of its members and adult leaders, nor does it inquire about the sexual orientation of prospective members and adults leaders in the course of recruitment and registration.”

    https://www.scoutsforequality.com/donate/

      • dewey: This is from scouts for equality. I did not write it but I am in support of it.

    • Sounds like the foundation of your new youth organization. If your so convinced its such a great idea then go start recruiting members and start building your organization. The members of the BSA aren’t interested; isn’t that what this is all about. Build your organization on the principles and they will come? Be sure you have a strong youth protection plan. Be sure you have a media response so you know what your going to say when the first 17 yr. old homosexual scout molests or rapes a 10 year old scout and they say “what did you do to prevent this tragedy from happening”? Then buy a lot of nails so your prepared to board up shop when it all collapses because your organization went bankrupt because of all the lawsuits filed against your org for negligence to protect the victim. That day will come. Why do you wish it on the BSA. “Be Prepared”.

      • I don’t see any YMCA camps boarding up and closing up shop.
        Get this, there are gay scouts already in scouting, leaders too. Your fears are unfounded!

      • Their not infounded. I know a boy that was molested by an older homosexual Eagle Scout who had no right to be in the BSA. Nobody took action against him then because he was a predator to young scouts who didn’t understand and were afraid to speak up at the time. I wonder how many of those situations exist in the mysterious files the BSA was required to surrender a few months back but now seem to jave mysteriously disappeared or are no longer persues by the media who demanded their release to the public and justice departments. Lets get all that dirty laundry out there now and see how the public and voting delegates feel about supporting a membership policy that aligns more with inviting more boy on boy and man on boy and possibly man on man molestations and rapes. What about all those hundreds of files locked away on social degenerates who have been discovered by the BSA and dealt with internally. How many of them were the homosexuals that leark undetected within the ranks waiting for that moment to strike. As a leader whose seen it before don’t think I don’t look for it now. Funny how all those files mysteriously disappeares from the medias attention when the issue of allowing homos into the BSA membership caught on fire. What happened to the files and what were the details of the files.. Anyone know? I’d like to know now before its too late and more boys are attacked and scared for life.

    • So if the families of a troop decide to circulate a “congratulations” card at a troop meeting, for everyone to sign, because the Scoutmaster is getting married to a same-sex-partner next weekend, would be Scoutmaster be expelled?

      • cwgmpls said: “So if the families of a troop decide to circulate a “congratulations” card at a troop meeting, for everyone to sign, because the Scoutmaster is getting married to a same-sex-partner next weekend, would be Scoutmaster be expelled?”

        What a repulsiive thought. He wouldn’t be Scoutmaster under current policy and that eliminates your premise for an argument.

      • We’re talking about the proposed language, above. Especially the ” BSA does not inquire about the sexual orientation ” part.

        I know such a man would likely be expelled under current policy. I’m wondering about how this situation would be handled under the proposed changes.

        There are several instances where an adult, who is known to be gay, has been asked to help lead a Scout unit, because the families that know that person has high regard for that person and value that person’s contribution to the troop.

        If the families are in full agreement that they want a person to lead, would the fact that the person is gay, but never talks in Scouting about being gay, disqualify him from membership, under the proposed policy?

      • A homosexual Scoutmaster would be banned under the proposed policy. Did you read it. No reason to talk about this impossible situation.

      • I too wondered about same-sex marriage with regard to this discussion. I seems reasonable to assume that having a same-sex spouse would imply open and avowed homosexuality, and thus disqualify someone from being an adult scout leader. There are some rare cases of couples who were heterosexual when they married, then one underwent a sex change, and they remained married. I have no idea how to apply BSA policy to that.

      • I’m talking about Todd Kunze’s proposed language, which doesn’t have the “open and avowed homosexual” phrase in it. It only mentions “compliance with Scouting’s standards of conduct”, whatever that means.

        Probably a moot point anyway, because I don’t think the language Todd Kunze refers to is being actually considered by anyone.

      • I can’t understand for the life of me why a responsible parent would allow their teenage son be involved in a troop where the leader was a male homo who has a sexual and emotional attraction to other males. Why does that homo man want to be involved with boys at that age anyway? I wouldn’t allow my teenage daughter to be in a girl scout troop that was led by a 25 year old hetero male whether he was wed or unwed. There are boundaries a responsible parent just knows naturally in their heart. Ehy would the young man want to be their leader anyway; same flags should be raises by the responsible parent. I think I’ll sacrifice being called a homophobe, bigot, racist (still wonder how that applies), politically uncorrect, old fashioned, non progressive, SOB…etc. when it comes to protecting my 15 year old daughter which by the way I have along with my teenage Eagle Scout son. You activists gotta get real and realize that we parents just aren’t stupid enough to let you oull this perverted scheme off. We don’ have to enroll our children in scouting this January if homos are allowed to enroll; most parents won’t if their unit changes to a homo leadership. I guess the selfish militant homosexual activists want nobody to have the BSA if they can’t have there way with the BSA. Typical feminen mentality of wanting to control everything and everybody in their world.

      • I can’ understand for the life of me why a responsible parent would allow their teenage son to be involved in a troop where the leader does not recognize Jesus as the only Son of God, begotten by the union of the Holy Spirit with Mary, that the Father, Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one, single God, and there are not other Gods.

        It is not for you and me to understand. Scouting does not require us to understand. Scouting only requires us to be Reverent, which includes respecting those who believe differently from us.

      • As a respinsible parent I better be making the effort to not only understand but take action to protect my children and other children from harmful situations. I also better take a leadership role in teaching my children and other children about what it means to be an American Citizen; Rights & Freedom and how to beware of tricksters like you and the other militant homosexual and left winged radicals who are trying to steal their rights and trample on their liberties. I also have lead my children and other children to a faith; the Christian Faith.. Children need to understand the right way to live their lives; need to know God and how to have a relationship with Him. It’s my mission in this life.. If you fear that then you must be the enemy I’m preparing them to battle when they grow older. Your free to choose cwgmpls how you choose to live your life and how you will have a lasting impact o the lives of the children you come in contact with and I am too.. I guess its a timeless struggle of good and evil.. I’m not unsure which side I stand for; are you?

      • Wallace: Shall we work on getting Mormons out of Scouting then, since they don’t meet our definition of Christian?

        Of course we should not. That would be ridiculous.

      • cwgmpls Why are use so concerned about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -Day Saints. What has the LDS Church done to you to be so aggressively judgemental? Are you a Christian? If you are do you practice the teachings of Jesus Christ ? The LDS Church is a Christian Church and Jesus Christ is the head of our Church at all times and in all places. You have the right to bash the LDS Church but you could at least stay on the subject of the BSA’s proposal to lift the ban on Homosexuals under the age of 18 and stop this nonsence about whether the LDS is Christian or not. This forum is not the proper place for bashing any Church. Your comments about the LDS Church are off the subject and if you are a BSA Leader or supporter lets do all we can to make the BSA the best it can be. That is the mission of the LDS Church and always will be. cwgmpls I hope that this is your mission also. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • Calm down. Wallace is the one who said he didn’t want non-Christians in Scouting. I’m cool with having all sorts of religions in Scouting. I even said getting rid of Mormons would be ridiculous.

        If you want to lean on someone for being intolerant of religions, you need to address your post to Wallace, not me.

  106. Great story on this issue for the women on this blog. My wife sent it to me. She is a former Tiger Cub, Wolf Cub, Bear Cub and Webelos den leader and Troop Committee member.

    Last two paragraphs:

    “By allowing homosexual members but not leaders, the Boy Scouts of America is seeking to appease the activists that have plagued it for so long; but it’s not possible to appease a radical group that seeks nothing less than complete and total surrender. If the current occupants of the Boy Scouts of America executive committee can’t muster the courage to stand their ground, then it’s time for them to step away. And if they didn’t agree with the policies of the Boy Scouts of America in the first place, then they should never have agreed to serve.

    Via the United States Supreme Court, the Boy Scouts of America has every right to keep its policy in place. It should stop playing games and do just that

    http://www.usnews.com/debate-club/should-the-boy-scouts-of-america-lift-its-ban-on-gay-members/sex-and-politics-dont-belong-in-boy-scouts

    • I cannot imagine signing this petition and recommend that no one on this blog does sign it. The wrestling match over the definition of “discrimination” will tie up BSA in the Courts for years. This is a bad idea.

      Excluding members based on sexual preference is not discrimination in the sense of what those on the homosexual side want it to be. They want it to be like race, gender and religion. It is not and by creating yet another federally protected class we advance nothing.

      • So that’s a ‘Maybe’ then? Kidding. I note, however, that the proposed solution — an amendment to BSA’s federal charter — does not use the word ‘discrimination.’

      • You said the amendment eliminated the “discriminatory” policies of the Boy Scouts of America. I will try to find time to read it tonight but I do not support that organization after reviewing their principles.

        But, I will read it tonight if you say it does not in any way treat exclusion of homosexuals as “discrimination” or prevent Boy Scouts of America from setting its own policies for its private organization without federal interference or intrusion. A federal charter is symbolic anyway and any traditional values organization.stays as far away from federal government involvement as possible these days as it usually bring left-wing progressive strings even if no money is involved which there should not be and federal money in BSA.

    • The full text of the petition:

      “The Boy Scouts of America currently bans ‘open or avowed homosexuals’ from membership. BSA has proposed opening membership to youth without regard to sexual orientation, but would retain the ban for gay and lesbian adults. As an organization chartered by Congress that is devoted to training youth in citizenship and leadership, BSA should be in the forefront of liberty, equality, and civil rights.

      “The BSA is a ‘patriotic organization’ under federal statute, 36 USC 30901 et seq. The President should propose an amendment to 36 USC 30901 to add language similar to the following: ‘The corporation [BSA] may not deny membership to any person based upon actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability.'”

      • Thanks for posting.

        I wholeheartedly reject the petition and the suggestion that we do not add yet another protected class to any federal document. I strongly recommend Scouters who support the current policy to recommend the federal charter be surrendered before BSA is dragged deeper in the politically-correct quagmire the federal government has become. It is symbolic anyway and BSA will not suffer. They don’t even issue them anymore.

        “A congressional charter is a law passed by the United States Congress that states the mission, authority, and activities of a group. Congress issued federal charters from 1791 until 1992 under Title 36 of the United States Code.

        The relationship between Congress and the organization is largely a symbolic honorific giving the organization the aura of being “officially” sanctioned by the U.S. government. However, Congress does not oversee or supervise organizations with the charter (other than receiving a yearly financial statement).”

      • Frankly, I think that surrending the federal charter, taking BSA completely private under the aegis of the major churches and conservative organizations — in essence, inviting the more liberal, less religious elements to leave — is perhaps the only long-term viable alternative for keeping the current policies. The demographics set out in the study summary make clear that change is inevitable. It is really just a question of how and when the split happens.

      • I agree with you that a split is inevitable. It would be sheer speculation to try to develop a picture of it this early in the process. After the May vote, much will become clearer. The divide will be much sharper and better defined and people waiting on a decision will stake out their positions like LDS and Catholics.

      • Fred Cooper from my understanding by the comments on this forum the mission of the new proposal is to add more Scouts to the BSA program and find a way to increase funding for our program. This must be the priority of every Scout member and warrants more support to accomplish this goal. There is a lot of comments regarding who will stay or who will leave. Sometimes it is better to bite the bullet and stay the present course and not let outside influences try to change our program. The success of the BSA because of its past policies has to be appreciated and continued on its present mission. How can we accomplish this mission will take a lot of work from all Councils and Charters. We can do it without changing the core values of the BSA. If the BSA has taken the path of unwanted change it will become a program of never ending change to accommIdate the the wishes of different groups that will be certainly disruptive and the lawsuits will come flowing in. The Supreme Court in 2000 gave the BSA the right to run its own program the way they wanted to chose because of its private status. When money becomes more important than values the BSA will never accomplish the goal of a organization of values that we have now in its present form. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • Dan, I tend to agree with you. But what is that even necessary. BSA was established, from its beginning, to be strictly nonsectarian, and to accommodate people of all faiths — conservative, liberal, Christian, Mormon, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, all working together to develop healthy boys.

        Why abandon that ideal, the ideal on which BSA was founded, and turn BSA over to be run only by conservative, Christian-identified organizations? Especially since there are already so many youth programs around that are specifically designed for the development of conservative Christian youth, like Royal Rangers, Awanas, Royal Ambassadors, Pathfinders, Cadet Corps, Columbian Squires, and so on?

        Why not let conservative, Christian-leaning organization use the many youth programs that already exist for that purpose, and allow BSA to be used by families that are open to the wide variety of religious doctrine and expression, that BSA was originally designed to accommodate?

        If we allow BSA to be transformed into into a conservative, Christian-only organization, then aren’t we re-defining the timeless values of Scouting?

      • What a funny comment this is. Completely does exactly what you put other people down for doing. I don’t think there are enough boys youth organizations led by homosexuals who invite homosexuals to become unit leaders, counselors at resident camps and encourage children from the ages of 6 to 18 + to join. hmmmmm? there’s like none so why not take all the energy your putting into destroying the BSA and apply it toward your ideal youth organization. Or if you find one that more closely aligns with your morals and guiding principles why don’t you go terrorize them and attempt to hijack their organization to serve your selfish self serving purposes and leave the BSA alone.

      • One alternative is for the more conservative elements to gain tighter control over BSA so that current policies can be maintained. The most likely alternative (in my view) is what is happening now and may take another 10 or 15 years to fully play out — that current policies will be scrapped and the more conservative elements will leave to their own or other programs more in tune with their philosophies. A third alternative (my personal favorite, but seemingly not very popular) is creation of a fully inclusive Scouting program within Learning for Life, with the current traditional BSA program left to the more conservative elements; if there’s going to be a split anyway, it makes sense for BOTH programs to be within the BSA family.

      • Dan, what current policy needs to be maintained?

        The one from 1984, “Education for sexuality belongs in the home… Scouters should reinforce rather than contradict what is being taught in the family and by the youth’s religious leaders.”

        The one from 1991, “We believe that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirement in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight”

        Or something else?

        Why can’t conservative and liberal Scouts stay together in one BSA, the way BSA was founded, and the way we have for the last 103 years?

      • All we have is the current Policy as approved and ratified. We are considering a proposal that includes homosexual inclusion. That is all that is on the table. I don’t see the 1984 policy returning. Liberals would say it approves homosexuals and conservatives would say homosexuality was never envisioned.

        This homosexual inclusion policy seems to be a core policy for liberals so they will agitate until they get it or leave angry. They firmly believe they are right.

        It is also against a core of Conservatives as it relates to Youth Protection and morals. These will not be surrendered based on a popular vote. They will leave angry or not.

        That is why i believe a split is inevitable. The homosexual lobby is on a roll so they will persist relentlessly for inclusion continuing to use the Courts and I believe will turn on Boy Scouts if they do not change the Policy.

      • The policy that BSA claims is the current policy. Why can’t we all stay together in one big happy BSA as we’ve done for 103 years? Because like the ocean, society is ever-changing. And the current wave of social change is now crashing on the rock of traditional religious and conservative views about homosexuality. There doesn’t seem to be much of any agreement on an accommodation (such as local option or the proposed youth-only policy) that would keep us all together.

      • I do not believe Local Option wouldn’t keep us together. This is my opinion based on the way I have seen homosexual advocates work in other organizations. “Diversity” training would bare its ugly head and Progressive CO’s and Units would ignore and marginalize Troops sponsored by Churches and Conservative CO’s. Non-inclusive CO’s would be sued and BSA is non-supporting because it is now inclusive and “Hey, its a local option, your call guys.”

        BSA would no longer have a national standard for morally straight. A boat without a rudder. Local community standards prevail. That should cause an interesting Jamboree.

      • We all agree on maintaining BSA’s timeless values.

        So why don’t we scrap the current policy, and revert to the earlier policy from 1984, that everyone agreed with?

      • ” Liberals would say it approves homosexuals and conservatives would say homosexuality was never envisioned.”

        Clearly it does neither. It says sexuality, and homosexuality, has nothing to do with Scouting. Period. What is the harm in that? That was BSA’s teaching on sexuality from its founding.

        So some troops have gay leaders, some don’t. Some troops have black leaders, some don’t. Some troops have women leaders, some don’t. Some troops have Christian leaders, some don’t. Some troops have multiply-married leaders, some don’t. Some troops have leaders that go to church, some leaders think prayer is a waste of time. Some troops have leaders who drink and smoke, some don’t.

        What is the harm in having troops whose leaders hold different moral teachings, so long as they don’t violate core BSA values?

      • Fred, I agree with you that the local option is not a viable accommodation, and I don’t think the current proposal is workable either. And cwgmpls, I’m sympathetic to returning to the earlier policy. I’m just afraid that the former policy would be seen as having a very different meaning now than it had then — that now it woul look like an attempt to cover up the elephant in the room.

      • So rather than approving a policy that everybody already agrees with, BSA is intent on maintaining a policy that has split BSA in half. I agree that the waves of cultural change are buffeting BSA. But that has been true for over 100 years, whether the issue is race, gender, religion, culture, BSA has weathered far more social change in the last 100 years than it is feeling now.

        The only difference is a leadership that is intent on institutionalizing an artificial social division, rather than claiming the unity that BSA was built on. These are not good times for BSA. Matthew 12:25

      • “BSA has weathered far more social change in the last 100 years.”

        Yes, absolutely. Does anyone remember what an earthquake it was when BSA allowed female Scoutmasters? That was huge, and the objections to it from some people were often on theological grounds, and on grounds that were perceived to be very core to BSA. And remember the practical concerns: “Where will they shower?” Yet we made it through.

        Our boys and girls from Utah and Minnesota and Georgia and New York go to World Jamborees, where they camp between the Ugandans and the French and Egyptians and the Israelis and the Swedish Scouts. They come home with great stories, great patches, great pictures, and no scars. They know that other units have very different values from their own. Why could they not tolerate a unit with very different values than their own sharing the Summit or their own Camporee?

        I think that BSA is falling victim to a different American illness that has nothing to do with sexuality. It is a loss of a sense of being a whole country. It comes out when you hear people reject the whole idea of the federal government, or call their political opponents evil, or get their news only from sources they agree with (and I’m not talking about one side; those sources exist at every point of the compass). We ought to be able to live with the idea that people in other units will think differently than we do, and let that be so.

      • Yep. What I don’t want to see is this controversy dragging on and on and on, with BSA’s reputation constantly getting stomped on, and membership continually shrinking so that when the split finally comes, BSA is too weak to handle the shock.

      • “But that has been true for over 100 years, whether the issue is race, gender, religion, culture, BSA has weathered far more social change in the last 100 years than it is feeling now.”

        The difference I see here is that it isn’t simply a matter of getting used to something strange, unfamiliar, unconventional, contrary to history and tradition, etc. Here, the “other” who would be teaching, spending lots of time with, and setting the example our children for is perceived by a large segment of the organization as intentionally, willingly, purposefully engaging in conduct that is inherently evil, disgusting, sick, and predatory.

        (Not my view now, by the way — but like many, my views, feelings, and beliefs have changed over the years. So I understand where the more conservative folks are coming from.)

      • BSA would not have to teach anything about homosexuality in order to admit gays as members. Just as BSA does not teach anything about Islam but still admits Muslims as members.

        Up until the mid-70s, over 1/4 of all Scouts believed that black people were inherently inferior to whites. Some people felt blacks were evil and disgusting. That disagreement effected a much larger portion of society, and of BSA, than the current debate does. BSA weathered that change just fine. If they applied the same wisdom now that they did then, they will do just fine. But I’m not sure BSA has the wisdom of leadership now that it had in the mid-70s.

        BSA stood up to those who were on the wrong side of history in the mid-70s. It is a shame if BSA does not have the courage to do the same now.

  107. I have a question not addressed in the FAQ:

    The resolution says no youth can be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America basis of sexual orientation or preference alone, however could a youth be denied advancement on the basis of sexual orientation or preference?

    If a Scout is a “known and avowed homosexual,” could he be signed off for living the Scout Oath and Scout Law in his everyday life (Scout requirement 7, Tenderfoot requirement 13, Second Class requirement 11, First Class requirement 12, Star requirement 2, Life requirement 2, and Eagle requirement 2)? Could a unit deny a Scout advancement because of their sexual orientation?

  108. So, to boil this controversy down, a very successful youth organization with one hundred and three years of tradition is going to change itself to reflect three years of pounding by the homosexual juggernaut led by certain political leaders and the massive power of mainstream media. I see a Pandora’s box being opened here which is in line with the strategy of the aforementioned… divide and conquer. To change with the winds of a fickle society is a mistake and has been the downfall of many great humanitarian efforts. Full disclosure: twenty year active Scouter.

    • ” going to change itself to reflect three years of pounding by the homosexual juggernaut”

      Wrong. BSA has been changing its policies on sexuality issues throughout its one-hundred-and-three-year history.

      Who invented to female-only role of “Den Mother” in 1936?

      Who changed the role of “Den Mother” to “Den Leader” in 1967, allowing adult men to lead Cub Scout dens for the first time?

      Who decided to allow women to be scoutmasters, and go on over-night camping trips with boys, in 1988?

      Who decided to change BSA’s 1984 “Statement on Human Sexuality”, which read, in part, “Education for sexuality belongs in the home… Scouters should reinforce rather than contradict what is being taught in the family and by the youth’s religious leaders”?

      This homosexual juggernaut sure has been busy if they have been re-writing BSA sexuality policies for the last 103 years.

      • None of the “changes” you just mentioned have anything to do with my topic. The agenda I am referring to involves the further breakdown of the Family, the core unit of civilization itself. It is a form of rationalization for the great secular goal of relativism.

  109. Reading over the comments here, there certainly are many points of view. The one thing that seems to emerge indirectly is that no one feels the proposed resolution is the perfect solution. Does anyone know if the National Annual Meeting operates according to Roberts Rules of Order, or some other set of procedures that permit the proposal of ammendments to a resolution under consideration?

  110. The funniest thing, is that BSA used to make a big deal out of being based on Native American structures and values, and Native Americans weren’t even Christian!

    When did BSA change from a Native-American structured club to a Christian structured club? Does anyone have any insight into the evolution of that aspect of BSA?

    • When did BSA change from a Native-American structured club to a Christian structured club? Does anyone have any insight into the evolution of that aspect of BSA?

      ============

      You must have ignored the quotes from Baden Powell that I posted. Baden Powell himself founded the scouting program on Christian principles and used whatever means to at his disposal to teach them.

      • Baden Powell did not found BSA in the U.S. BSA was incorporated in 1911 by W. D. Boyce, who was impressed by Scouts in London and had met Baden Powell there. Early on, BSA merged with the pre-existing Woodcraft Indians, which had been founded in 1902 and was based on popular Native American themes from that time. Aspects of this Woodcraft heritage remain in BSA today, including in the Order of the Arrow award.

        Meanwhile, in London, Baden Powell was also becoming interested in American Indians, as well as Asian Indians. “The Jungle Book”, tales of morality set in India, became the basis for Powell’s cub scout program. Many Cub Scout names and concepts, including “Wolf Cub”, were derived from the Jungle Book. In the U.S, Cub Scouts became a kind of mash-up between the Jungle Book and popular concepts of American Indian lore here.

        So BSA is more than a Christian-based program. From its origins, BSA is a mixture of Christian, Indian, and popular American Indian lore.

        When we talk about the origins of BSA, why do we only mention Christianity, and don’t bring up these clear Asian and American Indian influences on Scouting from its beginning?

      • This statement , to me, is confusing religious values with different cultures. BSA is Christian value based but embraces all cultures. And, incidentally, ‘Jungle Book’ was written by a Brit so I am reticent to agree that Indian (India) influences are part of the BSA, not that it matters.

      • BSA is not Christian-anything based. Read the DRP. BSA welcomes all religions equally. You will not find one official BSA document which states BSA is Christian based.

      • Kipling was born in India and moved to England as a child. I am sure he felt a deep connection to the country where he was born and incorporated some of the myth from the culture into his books. He certainly would have felt a love of country for his birth place.

        This is an interesting artlcle concerning the friendship between Kipling and Baden – Powell, and how “Jungle Book” was incorporated into Cub Scouting. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705386924/Finding-an-LDS-connection-with-Kiplings-Jungle-Books.html?pg=all

      • Thank you for the great article on Kipling. Born in India, raised in England, began working his first full-time job at age 16 in Punjab (Pakistan). He became a world traveler after that. Eventually getting married in England at age 26 and then moving to the United States around 1890 where he started his family in Vermont. His writing continued to take him all over the world, and he finally moved back to England around 1900 where he remained until his death in 1936.

        Of all of the writings that could have inspired Baden Powell at the start of Scouting, The Bible, the Quran, the Book of Mormon, the Torah, it is noteworthy that Baden Powell chose the Jungle Book as the basis for Scouting.

        Paden Powell is clear that he intended Scouting to be founded on “universal values”. Not Christian Values, not Traditional Values, not Timeless Values, not Family Values. Universal Values.

        It would be nice to see BSA work that into a slogan sometime.

        When did BSA stop teaching boys about universal values, which are the origin of Scouting? When did BSA change from a universal-value-based organization, which it was at its origin, to a Christian-value-based organization?

      • cwg-mpls said: Paden Powell is clear that he intended Scouting to be founded on “universal values”. Not Christian Values, not Traditional Values, not Timeless Values, not Family Values. Universal Values.

        It would be nice to see BSA work that into a slogan sometime.”

        I have no idea what you just said. Why don’t we start a list of Universal values like his such as the Scout Oath and Law. Are you saying the Scout Oath and Law do not represent Universal and timeless values?

        Or, as I expect, you are saying that sexual behavior changes over tine and we ahould it accept that the Scout Oath and Law bend and sway in the wind with to determine the current mores of Society. I disagree. What was morally wrong in Baden-Powell’s day is probably morally wrong today. Permissive Society has changed the current interpretation of the Scout Oath and Law in to a conservative Oath and Law.

      • Great observation cw, Then it sounds like the BSA has freely chosen to “change” for the better over the years and adopt Christian beliefs into its program; Freedom to choose is a beautiful thing, His design. See.. not all change has to be bad change; sometimes changing something can ultimately make it better. In this case the BSA has become a better organization because of the changes the majority of the membership wanted to make the BSA to be; Christian values based. The USA is predominantly a Christian Nation and a Democracy. Democracy means that the majority rules; not the minority. Fortunately in the USA minorities are free to create their own organizations with the rules and membership policies they choose freely to have. Maybe this is the beginning of such a time as that; a new beginning for you and a strengthening of values for the BSA in order to prepare for the future challenges facing our Nation’s youth. If you really think you have a better way I challenge you to create your own youth organization reflecting all the secular faithless values you think the majority of BSA members should adopt to make you happy; fulfill your selfish desires. Celebrate the change that’s taken place in the BSA over the years and respect what it is to those who freely choose to be part of it and value it for what it is. Some people aspire to fit the mold it challenges youth and adults to fit and some are just trying to change the mold to fit their faithless values. I think the majority need to stand up and fight for what they want the BSA to be. How is it right to steal it away from them just to suit the selfish desires of a tiny segment of our society who think they can prove eternity wrong and try to make wrongful behaviors seem somehow righteous? It isn’t right; its wrongful.

      • Please define the universal values your speaking about or please give a reference as to where these values you choose freely to live by and push on others to live by can be found? Who wrote these values you choose to live your life by? What principles do these universal values do you aspire to live and mold your life to? Why should the values you freely choose for your life become the set of values the BSA needs to adopt to replace the core values the BSA has already adopted and has set for youth to freely choose to aspire to and mold their lives into to become the good man their driven in their heart to become by the Holt Spirit of God?

      • Yes, the Scout Oath and Law represent Universal Values. And, unlike current BSA policy and teaching, the Scout Oath and Law say nothing about sex. I think all Scout families would welcome BSA returning to the universal values stated in the Scout Oath and Law.

      • “What was morally wrong in Baden-Powell’s day is probably morally wrong today.”

        In Baden-Powell’s day, it was morally wrong for women, and blacks, and Catholics, to be leaders over white, Protestant men. Fortunately, and wisely, the Scout Oath and Law say nothing about gender or race or creed. Times change. Universal values do not change.

      • “Then it sounds like the BSA has freely chosen to… adopt Christian beliefs into its program;”

        Has BSA written that in a document, statement, or policy somewhere?

        I’m not aware of one.

        I would think changing the basis for moral authority for an organization would be important enough to be written down somewhere.

      • The core values of BSA, as stated in the Scout Oath and Law, are universal values. No need to change them. Not in 1991. Not now.

      • The question was asked, when did the BSA change from a Native-American structured club to a Christian structured club? To answer this question, let’s quote from the BSA themselves, instead of add to or take away from what they said. ” …..(a) subscribe to and abide by the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law, (b) subscribe to and abide by the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle (duty to God), and (c) demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone……” When the BSA asked the boys to subscribe and abide by the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principles, can anyone show me in this document where it requested, stated or required the value to be based on Christian? Native American, as well as other religious groups have strong positive values that show respect, love, and affirmation of good qualities, which are also consistent with Christian qualities, and part of the Scout Oath, and Scout Promise, but it does not require a person to be Christian. Scouting is acceptable and applies to all groups of people, not just Christians.

  111. Most all the comments here relate to the “NOW THEREFORE” part of the resolution, which is appropriate. However, I do have some problem with

    AND WHEREAS, Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting;

    Youth members of Venturing can be up to 21 years of age. Youth members can be married. Youth members can themselves be parents. I don’t see how BSA can make this statement without exception.

    • I fully agree. BSA has no role teaching the appropriate age for becoming sexually active to boys. Sex education is the role of families and clergy, not BSA.

    • I think the point the resolution is making is twofold: one) sex education is between a scout and his family (and their moral principles); two) no one should be engaging in any sexual activity at a scouting activity. My wife and I are both scout leaders, but we wouldn’t “celebrate our anniversary” in the middle of camporee…

      • 1) If sex education is between a scout and his family, then why is BSA teaching scouts that homosexuality is immoral?

        2) If the issue is scouting activity, not scouting age, then the wording of the resolution should be changed. It currently says “scouting age”.

        3) Do you and your wife wear wedding rings? Do other Scouts know you are married? Do you attend Scout events as a couple? Do you tell Scouts about trips that you and your wife take together? Then you are displaying your sexuality in Scouts. Which is fine. But I don’t know why we don’t extend the same respect to gays. A Scout is Reverent… He respects the beliefs of others.

      • While I disagree that reverent has anything to do with respecting others beliefs, I do agree that we should respect others beliefs. Does that mean that we need to agree with or sustain them? NO! Respecting anything is a two way street. If it does not exist both ways then it does not exist.

      • We do not have to agree with one another to respect one another. That is the beauty of BSA’s Chartering Organization structure. It allows groups of all types, even those who don’t agree with each other on non-Scouting issues, to all charter their own BSA units. In addition, each Chartering Organization has the ability to add additional requirements to qualify as an adult leader for a troop, and can include some instructional material that is outside of BSA into the curriculum for their Scouts.

        BSA’s structure makes it possible for all Scouts to respect each other, even on non-Scouting issues on which they might disagree.

      • “I disagree that reverent has anything to do with respecting others beliefs,”

        Respecting other beliefs is specifically listed as part of BSA’s definition of “Reverent”. Sounds like you need to brush up on your Tenderfoot requirements.

      • cw, You and your like minded cronies are just too funny. The way you lie and manipulate truths to serve selfish personal desires and serve evilness. You are so much not what the BSA spirit is all about. Its a shame how disloyal you and your like minded homosexual activists are to tje BSA if your members and how shameful you all are to a free American organization if you aren’t. I know the truth of your heart tells you that homosexual behavior will never be acceptes by the vast majority of our society and it will ALWAYS be an abomination to God’s creation. His truths are truths of the heart of all humankind. I assume that if your all members then Loyal is a point of the law you’ve all vacated because you should be standing up for the BSA and everything it stands for rather than attacking it and trying to destroy what it means to so many people.

      • Having women leaders will never be accepted by many in our society, and it will ALWAYS be considered by some to be an abomination to God’s creation. Yet we find a way to get along in Scouting.

        Sectarian differences have always existed, and always will. Yet we can still get along. That is the whole point of Scouting.

      • cwgpls. Why are you so controversal your comments mostly give Scouting a bad name. The scout leaders on this website know your comments is to get attention and there is a lot of your comments that are factually untrue. I am not sure of the outcome of this new proposal if it passes it will be a proposal of division that only Satan and his followers will like. I do believe that it will not be in the best interest of the youth of America and the principles of scouting. Scouting is a team organization and if we are not a team player then you are not a Scouter. From most comments, articles and statements the new proposal is the wrong direction and I believe that the majority should prevail. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • Please do not focus on me. Just list my untrue statements and explain how they are untrue. That is the way respectful conversation works.

        I’ve already made it clear that I don’t like the new proposal either.

        I don’t even know why BSA has to have a policy about sexuality, other than to say sexuality has nothing to do with Scouting, which was BSA’s official position until around 1990.

      • cw, are you now trying to control and dictate the tone and verbage of this debate. You honestly don’t have a BSA leg to stand on as everything you struggle to support has no basis in BSA policy. The vast majority of the BSA membership support the current membership policy as illustrated by the results of the survey shown in an earlier post on this debate. Truth just can’t be changed because you wish it to be. You strive to manipulate the truth to serve your evil purpose. Fortunately those that understand truth see through your scheme as yours and other left wing aggressive militant homosexual advocates tactics have become revealed and have taken on a comical tone. People know right and wrong; it haunts their spirit and God reveals truths to them; doesn’t have to be a written on paper; its burned in the heart if all Godly people. Your wrongful for trying to steal and hijack the BSA to serve your evil, selfish purpose. You don’t care if it survives to serve our Nations youth; You want it to serve your selfish purpose and the purpose of other evil people who only care about it because in stealing it you’ll claim some sort of perverted righteousness that homosexual behaviir is acceptable in spite of God’s denouncement of its sinfulness. . Good luck with that disobedience..

      • The proposal under consideration still discriminates against Christian churches that believe that homosexuality is a God-given trait and not a sin, and that are “open and affirming” to gays and lesbians. But at least it prevents the abomination of boys being approved by their own Board of Review for Eagle and then being denied the Eagle because some “Gladys Kravitz” has discovered that they let slip somewhere that they are gay.

        In time Scouting will move into the 21st century. Probably in another 5-10 years or so.

  112. After just reading “Our ‘Family Discussion’ ” in the May-June 2013 issue of Scouting magazine, it is looking like the Key 3 aren’t “getting it”. I now fear that the forthcoming vote may almost be just a pro forma act, and the resolution will be added.

    These are dark days for Scouting, but mostly for the families and their boys/young men working to be true to their Judeo-Christian faiths. While there is always hope that the voting members will do the right thing and vote against the resolution, I can’t help but see the end of many families’ association with the B.S.A. given what seems to be the likely vote.

      • I doubt at this point that the B.S.A. will turn anyone away as long as they are willing to pay and/or sell their products. When you embrace moral relativism you can welcome all kinds of things. The dilemma won’t be for the B.S.A., it will be for those trying to be faithful to traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs. Those folks will have to decide if staying with an organization that would have thrown away an opportunity to lead rather than follow can be at all consistent with those beliefs.

      • Read BSA’s Declaration of Religious Principles. Count how man times the word Christian, Christ, or Jesus appears. Please report your findings here.

    • John – there are many, MANY Jewish synagogues and Christian churches that support the resolution. Plus, both the Mormon Church and American Catholics have said it’s fine with them.

      Unless I’ve missed something and none of those groups are “Judeo-Christian,” your point isn’t making sense. Yes, there are some Christian churches and some Jewish synagogues that continue to believe that homosexuality is a conscious sin rather than a God-given trait. But there are many others that don’t.

      • Can you please indicate where the Catholic Church supports this resolution? I think there is a great deal of misinformation going around. A scout is trustworthy.

      • I don’t know about any official Catholic Church position. But the proposal would seem to align well with Catholic teachings about sex.

        1) any boy can join Scouting, even a gay boy, as long as he is not sexually active in any way
        2) no sex by anyone until they are married
        3) no marriage until 18
        4) no gays over 18 allowed. period.

        I don’t see much there that would contradict Catholic doctrine on human sexuality. But I am not Catholic, so I could be wrong.

      • The Catholic teaching is “Masturbation and Homosexuality are contrary to the will of God.” Homosexuality is a sin. We do not want to promote sin. This is a real non-issue for the vast majority of people. The problem is with the gay activists who have joined scouting (on false premises) who are trying to change (corrupt) scouting from within. This is not trustworthy nor loyal. My uncle fought in Vietnam and there is a phrase when the enemy infiltrates your lines. It is then the battle becomes ferocious.

      • “Masturbation and Homosexuality are contrary to the will of God.”

        Okay, then. I see where Catholics would have a problem with the proposal, since it explicitly acknowledges that gay boys are permitted to be Scouts. I guess this is where Catholic teaching differs from Mormon teaching. The LDS church allows that being homosexual, or having “same sex attraction” as they call it, is not contrary to the will of God. It is the acting on that attraction, or the homosexual behavior, that is contrary to the will of God.

        So the proposed policy fits in with Mormon doctrine: same-sex attraction is tolerated as long as it is not acted on. This is different from the Catholic teaching you state, that any form of homosexuality is wrong and must not be allowed.

      • cwgmpls I did not want to refer to religious arguments for passing the new proposal. I feel that many bloggers including myself have spent to much time on the pros and cons from a religious prospective. I believe that those 1400 voters will vote based on what permanent and financial harm will be done to the organization with the new proposal. With your comments about the LDS Church allowing homosexuals in the Church I need to respond. Homosexuals that are active sexually in the LDS Church will have a real struggle in their membership as they will be excommunicated for not repenting and not ceasing their sexual behavior. For those who believe they are homosexual due to various circumstance’s choice or otherwise they will be ask to abide by the LDS Doctrine that sexual homosexualty is a sin. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints mission to the world is a conversion process to the teachings of God and his son Jesus Christ he came into the world not to condemn the world but to save it. The Church will never wavier from their core beliefs unless directed by God and revealed through his Prophets. The recent comments by the LDS on approval of the new BSA policiy on allowing homosexual youth into the scouting program is that those that have homosexual feelings will be converted to the teachings of the gospel as God has defined it. This is the difference between the reason for the Churches approval on the new proposal and the BSA’s approval. My personal feelings even though I am member of the LDS Church as a Scoutmaster I hope the new proposal will not be approved it will bring challenges that will be long term and controversal. I also believe that the LDS reason for approving the new proposal is in line with the Churches position that all can be saved by the process of conversion to the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I hope that this will clear up the misconception that the LDS condones active and open homosexual lifestyles, they clearly do not. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • Thanks, Trenton. That is my understanding too. The LDS church permits “homosexual feelings” within its members, with the understanding that those feelings will be corrected or resolved over time.

        That is what I am reading in the proposed policy. Boys with homosexual feelings will be permitted into Scouting, but it is expected the issue will be resolved before they become an adult leader.

        This new proposal reads as a particularly Mormon policy to me. Many Catholics, Baptists, and other conservative religious folks, are not comfortable with any acceptance of homosexuality; even accepting “homosexual feelings” is a stretch too far for them. And many progressive religious folks, who want gays fully welcomed into Scouting, are not comfortable with the exclusion of gays after the age of 18.

        This particular view that gays can be accepted, within limits and up to a certain age, and then not accepted after that certain age, does not sound so much like a compromise to me. It reads more like a re-statement of a specific Mormon doctrine regarding sexuality.

      • cwgmpls Unwilling I give you comments that you can misinterpret. The passing of this new proposal has nothing to do with the fact that someday the young scout before he becomes 18 will no longer be homosexual. Without personal revelations and spiritual guidence the young homosexual in scouting might become more sexually active as a homosexual and possibly be a threat to other scouters.The BSA should not and will not try to change the homosexual desires of those who participate in this behavior. So the LDS and the BSA have different responsibilities on the their roles reguarding homosexual activities in Scouting. The new proposal will be a burden to implement and will be the gateway to admit active adult Homosexual leaders into the BSA this will not happen in the LDS Church. Law suits will come like a class five hurricane no way to avoid it. Trenton Spears

  113. None of the comments here are going to change anybody’s mind. We’re screaming at monitors, with no ears to hear.

    I have already informed my Cub Master that if the measure is approved, he will need to find a new Webelos leader for next year. It’s sad that those who love Scouting and its principles are watching the organization cave to the bullying of those who seek only to crush those principles.

      • I truly believe there is one fact nobody on the Progressive side seems to get. Christians choose the word of God over any Program. A Christian will not wallow in immorality just to be a Boy Scout. Boy Scout Policy has to be compatible with Christian beliefs and values for a Christian to stay. The Bible says to flee immorality.

        Its called taking a stand and a principled one at that.

      • Leaving sex education up to the family and church, and out of BSA, is completely compatible with Christian beliefs and values.

      • Do Baptists understand the Word of God better than the Episcopalians? Who reads it better, Mormons or Catholics? For two thousand years, Christians have demonstrated great variety in their understanding of the Word of God. America was founded because our leaders were tired of religion being used for persecution of minorities. Baden Powell founded a worldwide network of “peace scouts” who are brothers in uniform and tolerant (not approving of, but tolerant) of our differences. And if it is really an issue of Christian morality, show me the council that kicks out the adult leader who gets divorced or who works as a money-lender.

      • Fred, with all due respect, accusing those who support the resolution – including the unanimous Executive Board, plus the Mormon Church, plus the Catholic Church, plus UCC, Episcopalians, etc. – of “wallowing in immorality” is a little much.

        As long as all persons involved in the program, youth and adults, abide by Youth Protection guidelines, there will be nothing for you to “flee.”

      • With all due respect, I cannot stay and any Christian who believes homosexuality is immoral cannot stay and that is all I am saying. If a person by definition is an open and avowed homosexual, he is advertising that he engages in the practice. I don’t want that behavior around. Sexuality has no place in Scouting as a topic of conversation in teaching or administering the program. I don’t want to have to deal with it on Campouts and around the Campfire. If the proposed policy is adopted, I will leave that to you and those left in Scouting.

      • Fred Cooper you are always right on. There is no middle ground on homosexuality it is either a sin or it is not. When God reveals it is not a sin then his word is final and I will obey his word. I thought that President Obamas comments on Jason the Basketball player congradulating him for stating he is Homosexual was beneath the pail and unpresidential the President should have remained silent and respected the office that he holds. The homosexual train is steaming ahead and pushing God and his teachings right off the track. Homosexual and those supporting homosexuality will in time realize that they are on a bridge to nowhere and will fall off the path to Heaven and life eternal. They can drive God out of scouting but they cannot drive God out of a Scout. Trenton Spears

      • the one tenth of one percent of homo men in this country hardly make much of a voting block. Obama was pretty quiet on the issue first term because he knew it would crush him in the poles. It isn’t a real movement; real numbers don’t support homosexual behavior. maybe next term a homo male couple should run for pres. & Vice pres. on the Dem ticket. Then I’ll run for president or maybe Bartamus; I think Gumby & Poky could win that race. Truth always reveals itself. Be patient for Justice. God always has His Victory over Evil. In His time and in His way..

      • More disturbing opinions from the BSA. This one from the legal team:

        > The interpretation Mike wrote correcting me, and was subsequently confirmed by
        > the national teleconference last night and a posting by BSA’s counsel, states
        > that a unit must take a youth who applies as an openly homosexual youth, and
        > must do so even if the CO specifically prohibits that behavior/orientation.

        All the progressive voices out there who say the CO’s will not come under attack, here is your proof. I can see homosexual boys encouraged by parents and friends to apply to join a conservative CO whose beliefs do not support open and avowed homosexuals as adults or children. So why spend the bucks retaining a Troop Charter when clearly BSA is against you and your beliefs?

      • Fred,
        That is not proof. It is your conjecture but you did not “prove” anything.

      • DLDW, I don’t know what kind of proof you need or want. Signed sworn statements from every Christian I know? Or, would that make it regionally biased? A blanket statement from Southern Baptist Convention? Or, would that make it denomination-biased. Its a true statement according to the direct scripture in the Bible. What other proof is there? You can deny it but the Bible is clear for Christians and that is the only people I am addressing.

      • Why would any boy join a Troop where he is not welcome? Why would any parent force their child to join a Troop where he would be at the mercy of those that do not want him as a member.

        There is a boy at our church that joined a troop at a local Baptist Church. After one year his is considering quitting Scouts because the boys in the Troop do not meet his moral standard. He is frustrated that the older boys sneak off to smoke, they frequently swear and terrorize the younger scouts. I spoke with his mom and suggested they try a different Troop instead of quitting. She just shook her head and told me that they made a mistake in having him join a Troop that they didn’t visit more than twice with leadership that was uninvolved.

        Obviously that Troop did not match their needs and now there will be one less boy in Scouting.

        Fred, you said, “All the progressive voices out there who say the CO’s will not come under attack, here is your proof.” What proof do you have that they will come under attack? Speculating that something may happen is not proof that it will happen.

      • DLDW, I am impressed. You actually found a Baptist Troop to hold up as an example of bad experience in Scouting. They’re out there and are bad Troops of all faith and non-faiths and they will continue to be out there with homosexual behavior added to the mix.

        I posted earlier twice and I am sure you read it so I am not going to post it again. You can navigate the blog as well or better than I can and find it if you’re interested which I do not see fact making much difference with you and facts are funny things and Universal truth is hard to come by as we have seen on this thread. Your truth is not my truth and vice-verse. That much is true..

        So read slowly and let this sink in.

        Posted on Scouts-L was a specific response to a specific question posed to BSA National and they answered with an answer that had been vetted by BSA Legal Dept. The Council asked if a CO would have to accept and open and avowed homosexual youth if their faith and beliefs did not condone such behavior. The unequivocal answer was that the CO would have to accept the Scout for membership and could not deny his expression of his sexuality in the Troop which is obvious because he is open and avowed. Only a fool would think he would not..

        So, just for kicks and giggles, let’s walk through a CO scenario if the proposed policy passes. The Troop is an Outreach ministry of a conservative Church and no Scout is a member of the Church. The Scoutmaster informs the Chartered Organization Rep (Youth Minister) of the revised policy who reviews the situation with the Senior Pastor. The Church Staff meets and is unanimous that homosexual behavior is a sin in the eyes of God and immoral based on scripture, doctrine and personal belief. The Pastor calls the Chairman of Deacons who affirms their decision. The Scoutmaster and Troop leadership are informed that the Church will next Sunday be presented with the revised policy and vote on the matter of maintaining a Charter for a Troop given that acceptance of open and avowed homosexual young man will now be enforced. The Church affirms that Scouting is no longer compatible with Church teaching and God’s Law governs this matter and it is clear. Scouting is only one of many programs offered at the Church to Youth. The Scoutmaster is present at the meeting as are the leadership of the Troop. Troop parents are informed that the Charter will be surrendered and they can organize on their own and form a Troop if they desire. Unfortunately, the facilities of the Church and the vehicles used by the Troop will no longer be available since Boy Scouts is not longer associated with the Troop. The budget will also cease immediately after payment of current bills. Meeting space will be converted to other purposes and Scout equipment will be transferred to another Youth Ministry as the Church bought it all including the Trailer.

        The parents and Scouts are understandably upset but at the enforced Policy, not the Church. The Scoutmaster and Asst. Scoutmasters resign and so all registered leaders. The parents see no future in Scouting for their sons and decide not to stay in Scouting since eventually the homosexual issue will be in front of them and BSA literature will eventually teach tolerance and acceptance of homosexual behavior and Youth Protection will address how to do so through required training.

        I am Scoutmaster of this Troop. If the Policy is approved, this is what will happen. We have already met about it. The Troop started in 1946.

        So, to me, denial of religious freedom of a Chartered Organization is an attack. You may not think so but any rational person would think so. If you don’t think this is proof, I can’t help you.

        Funny too, based on your early posts on this list. If the policy is adopted, certainly denial of religious freedom can be seen as “discrimination.” Since BSA would then support a different “discriminatory” policy and you support the policy, you would be a bigot. But, that’s language is for others. I just think you’re wrong.

      • ” There is no middle ground on homosexuality ”

        Which is precisely why the whole issue should be left outside of Scouting, entirely. For some religions, there is no middle ground on the role of women. There is no middle ground on drinking alcohol. There is no middle ground on eating pork.

        That is why sectarian issues, which are not universal across all religions and people, were intentionally left out of Scouting from the beginning.

        A simple statement from BSA which reads “Instruction on sexuality is outside the role of BSA. Such instruction should be left to families and clergy. No BSA unit should contradict the teachings of family or clergy on matters of sexuality.” should be passed, the sooner the better.

        Then us Scouts can get on with Scouting, and be rid of this distraction which has eaten up millions of Scouting hours and dollars over the last 20 years, with no benefit to anyone, and with great harm to BSA as an institution.

      • Allowing open and avowed homosexuals in Scouting is not bringing sexuality into Scouting. Keep repeating that line. It’s in and here to stay with the revised policy.

      • Fred,
        Your story is speculation. Your story adds to the fear mongering. Your story is not proof that any of what you mention will happen.

      • I’m sorry DLDW. but as a Scout is Courteous and you just called me a liar, please do not direct any more posts to my attention. I will not respond to them.

      • “Allowing open and avowed homosexuals in Scouting is not bringing sexuality into Scouting.”

        How does allowing open and avowed homosexuals into Scouting introduce the topic of sexuality any more than allowing open and avowed heterosexuals into scouting?

      • See “open” definition 2b and 2c

        See avow(ed) definition 1 and 2

        o·pen

        (pn) adj.1. a. Affording unobstructed entrance and exit; not shut or closed. b. Affording unobstructed passage or view: open waters; the open countryside. 2. a. Having no protecting or concealing cover: an open wound; an open sports car. b. Completely obvious; blatant: open disregard of the law. c. Carried on in full view: open warfare; open family strife. d. Sports Not closely defended by an opponent: an open receiver.

        a·vow

        (-vou) tr.v. a·vowed, a·vow·ing, a·vows 1. To acknowledge openly, boldly, and unashamedly; confess: avow guilt. See Synonyms at acknowledge. 2. To state positively. Any question? At all? is it that hard for you to understand? Really?

        Fred Cooper

        Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 18:18:41 +0000 To: fcoopercpa@hotmail.com

      • I wear a wedding ring, clearly visible to everyone. I often tell others, including Scouts, about trips that my wife and I take together. My wife and I have even taken a public vow of our marriage together. I am an open and avowed heterosexual. Once we make sure open and avowed homosexuals stay out of Scouting, will we be kicking out open and avowed heterosexuals next?

      • Since gays cannot marry except under man’s law where it has been coerced into being law, I don’t think you have a valid premise on which to make an argument. Man and woman together is the natural way of things.

        Man/Man Woman/Woman is one trying to be the other in a same-gender relationship.

      • Gee Fred,
        Hypocritical much? It is ok for you to state that someone’s view point is speculation but when your story is referred to as such you state that the person making that observation is calling you a liar. Then you have the gall to take your toy and go home.

        This is your quote from a conversation with Dan: “sheer speculation but that is all any of this discussion is on the proposal.” Hmmmm?

      • Sorry DLDW, I can’t let that go by. Compound calling me a liar by telling a lie. You are one special person in that special world you live in.

        Your quote of me was from a previous post that was not a specific Troop and a specific CO and I was speculating what could happen. My story that you responded to was the actual story of my Troop. No speculation at all. So you’re wrong. Again!

        I’m still in the debate, just not with you. Your fabrications are tedious at best, insulting at worst.

      • Hopefully we are reading each other’s comments and considering them. I sure am trying. As many have said, it’s about the Scouts. Realistically, “No change, ever!” is just not an option. We do not live in the USA of a century ago when the BSA was founded, We do not even live in the USA in which were were Scouts when we were kids. Today in the USA there are many tens of thousands of kids growing up in families with same sex parents. Of course it wasn’t their choice. The first time Johnny arrives at a Cub Scout family campout with his two Moms, you’ll have to deal with it. The fact that this is biologically impossible can’t matter. What you think of his parents can’t matter. You have to make that Scout welcome, protect him from bullying, just like every other Scout. Then it’s going to hit you that “No change, ever!” is not an option.

      • I kind of wish Scouts would have discovered the “No change, ever!” mantra right after they wrote the 1984 sexuality policy. That one was actually half decent. Unfortunately, BSA changed is position on sexuality after that. And it keeps changing today.

        BSA has obviously changed in many ways through the years. Change is a part of life; the only organizations that do not change are the ones that are already dead.

        It is impossible to change in a healthy way if we are in denial that change is occurring, even now.

      • Change is one of those funny words people think means something good initially. There is such a thing as bad change and there is absolutely no good yo be gained from changing the BSA membership policy. cw, you seem to have either no vision of the problems this change will bring if its made or you seem to have no care. I have a feeling your not going to be in a position where you would have to deal with all the problems this will cause because I have yet to see you address how the various problema with this bad change will be handled. Maybe your the type of person who just pushes for your way and then lets someone else deal with all the problems you’ve created; nowhere to be found. The BSA will be fine if it keeps its current child protective membership policy in place. Its a shame it ever had to become an issue in the first place; I hold Dale responsible for that with his initial wrongful claims to want a leadership role in an organization where he knew perfectly well he was violating and not qualified bases on the oath he knew perfectly well. But every change isn’t good and the BSA would be foolish to break what they’ve gone to great extents to establish. A lot of leaders are counting on them to do the right thing and sustain a membership standard that serves the BSA well in many ways.

      • Christians already wallow in immorality we have sit in our buts and done nothing or said anything when prayer was taken out of school or the church taken out of public schools are goverment we let the morals be taken out of this country now we want to blame the scouts for the mess we let get out of hand because we didnot want to be the bad guys.Guess what we as christians have let this country go to hell and we only have asre selves to blame.The BSA are trying to deal with the mess we gave them now we all want to be high and mighty and tell everyone want a great christian we are and run away from a group who is trying to keep it’s head above water.are the key 3 doing a good job ? No have we done a good job? No so two wrongs are not going to make a right. We need to take what we have and make it work. Jesus didnot run from the cross.So if we are Christian we need to work harrd to make this work.

      • I always thought progress was advancement. like the transcontinental railroad, going to the moon, the 14th amendment to free the slaves, etc…. How is condoning homosexuality progress???? It sounds more like were being going backword to the Roman/Pagan times. Please explain.

      • How can saying nothing about homosexuality be construed as condoning homosexuality? If BSA says nothing about bank robbery, does that mean BSA condones bank robbery?

      • Well said! We are all born with tendencies. I have met a few young boys who had a terrible tendency to lie. However, he was held accountable to the scout law; A scout is trustworthy. Should we have a segment of the policy indicate that we also accept boys with a tendency to lie? No No. Stop corrupting the law. A scout is morally straight. (period)

      • Mark Gonzales don’t sell these blog comments short it does have an impact because many of the bloggers input a lot of information and there are many voters that will read these blogs and use their comments to determine how they will vote I have talked to one of the voters that live in my Council area and he will not approve the new proposal by the BSA. Keep the faith. Trenton Spears

  114. Here is a scenario I wasn’t given by the polling agency. My SPL is really great working with the younger Scouts and has been particularly focused on working with a fourteen year old second class Scout. They have even been meeting after school because they live in the same neighborhood. I am Scoutmaster of the troop where the seventeen year old SPL comes out of the closet with the new BSA policy. What do I do next? I don’t have any way of judging this sort of relationship due to the aspect of camaraderie and “boy led” program we have with BSA. Unfortunately due to my ignorance I may have inadvertently encouraged this because the second class scout had stalled out and I thought extra help would be beneficial. What do I say to the parents when they come to me and announce that they believe their son has been seduced? I know, call the police, the abuse line etc. but here is the dilemma: BSA is a boy led program where proximity is a natural part of the works. I know I am probably showing my ignorance here but don’t we lay ourselves open to creating a situation of temptation and wrongdoing? Heck, we encourage the boys to sleep three to a tent in cold weather camping. Will we be accused of prejudice when we find that an openly announced homosexual scout can’t get anyone to sleep with him? Or that one particular scout sleeps with him on every occasion? After all, they announce, they are just friends. I see a whole new set of problems which will have to be addressed with a change of policy. I am also afraid there are a whole set of problems as yet unseen by this change. Remember, Scoutmasters come in all shapes and sizes and not all are equipped as well as some of you intellectuals posting on this site.

    • Changing the policy IMO will not stop the lawsuits as you just pointed out. and it will not bring in more money as some are being led to believe. I believe this move by Liberal progressives is all about destroying the organization from within that has had the courage to take a stand on morality. It is my opinion that should this resolution pass that 3 years from now membership in BSA less than half of what it is right now.

      • > I believe this move by Liberal progressives is all about destroying the
        > organization from within that has had the courage to take a stand on morality.

        This isn’t about destroying Scouting. This is about diversity and equality. I, and my denomination, believe that this is a Social Justice and Civil Rights issue.

        Diversity is achieved through equality, and diversity strengthens us. Separation and division inevitably lead to distrust and hate. You can see that in the horrible things that have been said by people in this forum.

        I have learned that the sexual orientation of a person does not determine their character, value or worth.

    • John, I am with you. As I posted somewhere else in this massive blob (lol) While some are thinking of morals or equality, I am thinking of logistics, implementation, and other long term effects. You can be pro or against the policy but these still need addressed in the organization. I fear no one in the hierarchy is doing this.

      -Have they talked to our insurance about the policy change on liability?

      -If I knowingly put a gay boy in a tent and something happens am I liable in court? Will Insurance cover me?

      -Should I put 3 to a tent vs our current troop policy of 2/tent so we have 2 deep protection? the more boys in a tent the more noise issues we generally have. Our current tent size will make 3/tent difficult.

      -Will there be a national coming out manual such as there is in Great Britain and will a leader be required to follow it even if it is against their value system? Will they have to get extra training and because of homosexuality, it becomes forefront in discussions, etc in programing. Will the boys be required to take training and indoctrination of acceptance that their parents may disagree with?

      • Not that I am siding with the resolution, but to try to answer your questions, the Key 3 claim that in this “listening period” that legal/liability issues were assessed and apparently they determined that the currently proposed change would not increase risk in this area (not that I necessarily agree with that ).

        While I believe no person practicing homosexuality belongs in Scouting, I also do not equate pedophilia with practicing homosexuality. Additionally, of the two categories of members the B.S.A. has been discussing (adult and you members who are avowed homosexuals), I would think the least likely persons practicing homosexuality that would have inappropriate sexual contact with a Scout youth member would be the adults. The youth member practicing homosexuality, I would think, would be the one most likely to attempt such a behavior (like the tent scenario discussed).

    • A boy is far, far more likely to be molested by a straight boy than a gay boy. For one thing, there are like 100 times more straights around than gays. For another, all boys are naturally sexually curious. Any disturbed straight boy can easily act out on this curiosity in inappropriate ways. It happens all the time. It happened to me when I was a boy. One more than one occasion, another boy (who later turned out to be straight) suggested that we expose our genitals to each other. Or touch each other. Or encourage each other to touch ourselves. It is normal curiosity, and most every straight boy will run into at least one event where another straight boy will try to act sexually inappropriately with them.

      We all teach boys, from the youngest age, about “good touch, bad touch” and about immediately leaving uncomfortable situations, reporting any concerns to an adult.

      All boys need to know how to respond to sexual abuse. Primarily because they are surrounded by other straight boys. The fact that a small percentage of gay boys might be around does not increase the danger of sexual abuse of boys at all.

      A boy is far, far more likely to be molested by a straight boy than a gay boy. The same protective measures apply to both.

    • John, as a fellow scoutmaster, I want to treat your question with all the seriousness it deserves. This is an excellent “roundtable topic”. First, we all have to admit that this situation could happen today, now. Any older scout left alone with a younger scout has the opportunity to take advantage of him. Youth who are abused can often turn around and start to abuse a younger person. And many child abusers consider themselves “straight” (it’s not logical, but neither is child abuse). Let’s also assume for now that these two scouts don’t actually start a relationship, just to keep things simple for posting purposes.
      Back to the main point: we should employ Youth Protection in any and all troop activities, no matter the location. Scouts who meet should always be under some form of supervision, even if it’s subtle and at a distance. Which touching is inappropriate? Any touching, whether it’s rough-housing, “grab-assing”, teasing, boredom, hazing, or something more, it shouldn’t happen.
      Turning to the secondary topic of dealing with known gay scouts in a unit: if scouts are permitted to unhide their preferences, there will no doubt be an awkward period of adjustment. Troops will literally have to go back to the Forming stage of team development and start again, just as they do every time there is a shake-up in the unit. National shows clips of “Remember the Titans” during Wood Badge, but most kids today really do not understand how black and white kids couldn’t get along before. They may get their chance to understand better.
      Finally, I would encourage all to have a little faith in our youth. The BSA research showed (look up the Youth Report) that a majority of youth, represented by teens, youth scouts and venturers, oppose the old policy and they feel the old policy does not reflect a core value of Scouting. I think our kids are already more adapted to gay tolerance than perhaps many adults are comfortable with. Our kids already know other gay kids at school and I think they will form, storm, norm, and perform faster than many adults expect. And ultimately, Scouting is for the kids.

  115. I know that we are all focusing on the morality on homosexuality.

    I am curious as to what you all think will happen to the membership of BSA should the resolution pass or fail.

    Take a step back and make your best prediction. Look at every country that has altered their member ship policy to match the resolution and allowed open and avowed homosexuals into scouting. What has been the pattern of membership after doing so? What else has those countries done to compensate for the loss of membership? What makes you think that BSA will have a different experience? Did these other countries like the UK and Canada see a surge in membership? Did they see a surge in donations? did they experience a surge in volunteers? Or did they see a rapid decline in all three?

    BSA is not the the first to face this issue. The submit to you that there is no upside to changing to the policy. There is only and accelerated decline.

    • Your comment is spot on. There is no upside to the Policy change except normalization of the sexual behavior of a very small group of young people struggling with sexual identity or those purposely acting out their sexual identity. Those who disagree will get the “my way or the highway” or “what is wrong with you” or my favorite “Can’t you be more tolerant and accepting?”

    • Steve wrote: “I am curious as to what you all think will happen to the membership of BSA should the resolution pass or fail.”

      My view: As it stands now, it is really just a question of _when_ the major churches, conservative (I use that term loosely) organizations, and conservative members leave. The study summary showed clearly that younger people have a different view of the underlying issue than older people. In 15 years, today’s Boy Scouts will be unit leaders. In 15 years, today’s Cub Scout Leaders will be on council executive boards. So even if the pending proposal is defeated this year (I think it will be defeated), change is practically inevitable and the institutions and people for whom this is a moral issue will leave BSA. If the pending proposal is adopted this year, the pace of change will be greatly accelerated. It won’t be more than a few years before the ban on gay adults is lifted. A wild card on timing is lawsuits. The current policy banning only “open or avowed” homosexuals, together with the unanimous Executive Board recommendation of the pending proposal, has essentially eliminated all the bases on which the Supreme Court’s narrow majority sided with BSA in the Dale case.

      The only thing that could alter BSA’s fate, I believe, is conservative elements defeating the pending proposal and BSA taking a sharper turn toward being a religious-based program. Because BSA has blown its First Amendment “right of association” argument, it needs a “freedom of religion” argument. Such a turn would essentially invite the more liberal folks to leave BSA, leaving it smaller and more conservative, and more likely to be left alone as it shrinks significantly.

      But I think such a rightward turn would be very difficult to make, and highly unlikely. The loss of institutional support from the major churches would be a heavy blow in terms of financial and other support, but somewhat less so in membership, as many youth and families in church-sponsored units won’t be bothered by the change and will move to other units.

      The problem is that if the departure of the churches and other conservatives is delayed for a long while, BSA will continue its current long decline, plus additional marginal declines based on its policies, and so will be weaker overall in another decade or two. That will make the split that much harder on BSA, and harder to recover from.

      For that reason, I would like to see this get resolved now, while BSA is still relatively strong and more able to absorb the loss of the conservative elements.

      • Dan said- “The study summary showed clearly that younger people have a different view of the underlying issue than older people. In 15 years, today’s Boy Scouts will be unit leaders. In 15 years, today’s Cub Scout Leaders will be on council executive boards. So even if the pending proposal is defeated this year (I think it will be defeated), change is practically inevitable and the institutions and people for whom this is a moral issue will leave BSA. If the pending proposal is adopted this year, the pace of change will be greatly accelerated. It won’t be more than a few years before the ban on gay adults is lifted.”

        I have seen this stat quoted by many here validating the change. The problem is that young people generally change their views as they mature. Liberals tend to become more conservative, become more religious as they age, especially during child bearing years when they start to consider values they want to pass to their children. they attend church more often.

        My opinion is that cub parents would be more open because of how they camp in cub scouts. Once in boys scouts they become disengaged because of the need for boys to be on their own. Whereas the leadership looks at the broader picture including liability, youth protection, mechanics of programing, and they deal with the issues that the parents are oblivious to because that is the leaders job. I know that we were discrete regarding issues even in cub scouts to minimize the gossip and collateral damage.

        The boys, due to lack of world experience, are naive to potential issues.

        While many are talking about morals or talking about equality, I am thinking ahead to logistics and potential liability, How am I suppose to handle X, Y, or Z. In my position of employment and working with a committee or board I often hear ideas that sound good initially but I look at longer term effects and bring those to the table I find that they didn’t explore the effects down the road including logistics, image,and implementation, and long term effect. All very important for an organization.

        The boys would be similar due to naivity of world experiences.

      • Dan, I appreciate your thoughts. I cannot imagine how you arrived at these positions but it was fun reading. I’d like to offer some perspective.

        Dan said: “The study summary showed clearly that younger people have a different view of the underlying issue than older people. In 15 years, today’s Boy Scouts will be unit leaders. In 15 years, today’s Cub Scout Leaders will be on council executive boards. So even if the pending proposal is defeated this year (I think it will be defeated), change is practically inevitable and the institutions and people for whom this is a moral issue will leave BSA. If the pending proposal is adopted this year, the pace of change will be greatly accelerated. It won’t be more than a few years before the ban on gay adults is lifted. A wild card on timing is lawsuits. The current policy banning only “open or avowed” homosexuals, together with the unanimous Executive Board recommendation of the pending proposal, has essentially eliminated all the bases on which the Supreme Court’s narrow majority sided with BSA in the Dale case.”

        sheer speculation but that is all any of this discussion is on the proposal. Dan, did you change and mature any as your grew up? Are you the same today as you were at 15? Are you values and principles the same? As Winston Churchill said and has been by and large proven:

        “If you’re not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you’re not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”

        So, as I said in a post a long time ago on this list, BSA should not look to the least experienced Scouters and most immature boys for direction on major policy decisions. I blush at my memories of my late teens and college days and early marriage years. I was not conservative and had a far more permissive attitude. When my son was born, all that changed. My life had a responsibility far greater than even my own life and that was raising a child to be a responsible man who loves God, family and Country and is a leader in Society. So as was said recently, taught high moral standards and values by parents and Scout leaders they will mature in a responsible manner.

        Dan said: “The only thing that could alter BSA’s fate, I believe, is conservative elements defeating the pending proposal and BSA taking a sharper turn toward being a religious-based program. Because BSA has blown its First Amendment “right of association” argument, it needs a “freedom of religion” argument. Such a turn would essentially invite the more liberal folks to leave BSA, leaving it smaller and more conservative, and more likely to be left alone as it shrinks significantly.”

        Hmm, as 70% of units are sponsored by faith-based organizations and the liberal secular progressives say they will stay and continue to agitate, I reject this proposition outright as unsupportable. We may lose the permissive Churches, whose doctrine is in error because it directly contradicts the Word of God, but that is not the worst thing that could happen to BSA. As long as they follow BSA Policy, all people are welcome. Obviously, active, open and avowed homosexuality is against Boy Scout Policy.

        Dan said: “But I think such a rightward turn would be very difficult to make, and highly unlikely. The loss of institutional support from the major churches would be a heavy blow in terms of financial and other support, but somewhat less so in membership, as many youth and families in church-sponsored units won’t be bothered by the change and will move to other units. The problem is that if the departure of the churches and other conservatives is delayed for a long while, BSA will continue its current long decline, plus additional marginal declines based on its policies, and so will be weaker overall in another decade or two. That will make the split that much harder on BSA, and harder to recover from.”

        Another Statement that I believe is totally unsupportable and I can give an example. My Troop is sponsored by a Conservative Church as an Outreach ministry. None of the Scouting families are members of the Church. None of the parents or Scouts support the proposed Policy. None. They are not going anywhere unless we surrender out Charter. Yours is a specious argument. Certainly some will leave but as hard as it probably is for you to believe, a lot of secular parents seek out Conservative Church Troops for their sons.

        Dan said: “For that reason, I would like to see this get resolved now, while BSA is still relatively strong and more able to absorb the loss of the conservative elements.”

        The loss of faith-based Units will also bring with it a loss of facilities and funding for Troops. Are you not aware that most Church-based CO’s provide these assets as CO’s? It is required by BSA but most government schools and other organizations give it lip service and you are shifted around at their convenience plus you have to comply with their faith system of Secular Humanism.

        A smaller, more effective BSA financially supported by its CO’s is an excellent idea. We could trim back of a lot of the superfluous literature we are forced to accept. Uniforms would not be such a financial burden on families. With Pdf handbooks and advancement maintained on the Cloud we could save untold millions to pay local professionals. Have you seen the current handbook? What an overblown production that should only represent a tool fo learning. Put all those graphics online and print what you need as you need it. On the other hand, this is the 21st Century. Blue cards are so quaint as to be ridiculous but I get charged .08 for every one.

        So, in closing, as much as a 70% loss in Units is acceptable to get that nasty conservative element element out of Scouting. I, for one, would regret the loss of Scouters but readily accept the resignation of those who cannot adhere to the current policy of Boy Scouts and feel the extrtaction of that element would bring an organization with much higher values and principles.

      • Fred, thank you for your thoughtful commentary. Yes, I’m speculating, trying to make the best guess I can about where all this is taking us. And yes, I know that it is certainly possible for folks to grow more conservative as they grow older and have more responsibilities. It is also possible that folks grow more open and liberal as they grow older and accumulate more life experience and exposure to many more different kinds of people. I know I have. But as the study summary tells us, even in the course of the last few years there has been a noticeable shift in views to a more liberal perspective, which I see as an indicator of a broader trend.

        “[N]asty conservative element” — Not my words and not my views. I understand the conservative side of this issue, and respect the fundamental principles underlying the conservative positions. I may not share them anymore, but I ‘get’ them.

        Personally, I think this whole thing was botched. For more than 20 years, BSA has had a generally consistent policy on homosexual membership that has been in line with the major churches and many conservative organizations and members. It isn’t fair to suddenly come and ask them (much less demand) that they consent to a 180 degree change in membership policy. The more liberal institutions and members in BSA have consented to that policy — even if they disagree — by their continued membership. Nevertheless, those more liberal elements also have principled positions that deserve to be heard and considered. We should be having this same “family discussion,” but without the pressure of a looming vote on a drastic policy change. It isn’t fair to our more conservative institutions and members who have been the backbone of Scouting for so long. But we should have started this discussion five years ago or more. Not having done so wasn’t fair to our more liberal institutions and members.

        Because of the moral element at issue here, I don’t see a way to a compromise or accommodation that would keep us all one big happy Scouting family. But had we been given the time and the freedom within the BSA to really (and with the BSA’s blessing) talk about these things in depth and thoughtfully consider and debate a wide range of options, including an amicable separation, we would be in much better shape.

      • I was not intending to attribute the “nasty” comment to you. You are correct that you did not make it. That is the feeling I get from the more radical among us. We are knuckle-dragging Neanderthals that don’t even believe in evolution. 🙂

        You seem to be a reasonable and I believe we can find much common ground. Someone has to lead that family discussion and the leaders we currently have are sorely lacking in leadership skills as demonstrated by trying to slip the first change in Policy by with no discussion. Much like our President, “let’s just do it and see if they will let it fly.”

        We can disagree as we do and stay civil.

        Were you one of the posters that suggested an All-inclusive program through Learning for Life? I am warming up more and more to that idea.

        Keep Scouts as it was originally intended in my opinion. A place for Leadership development and not accommodation of everyone but build leaders of men not just outdoorsmen.

        For the flamers out there. it is my opinion and I have staked our the reasons numerous times.

      • Yes, I have been an advocate of the Learning for Life option. In 1998, BSA had a problem. Schools, fire departments, police departments, and other governmental and civic organizations chartered Explorer posts for youth to learn and practice skills that might lead to careers. But BSA’s membership policies were in conflict with non-discrimination requirements of these chartered organizations. So BSA split the program. Career-oriented Explorer posts were moved to BSA’s subsidiary corporation, Learning for Life (which offered character programs to supplement school curricula), which has a non-discrimination policy. Non-career Explorer posts (such as those focused on high adventure) remained in BSA’s traditional program lineup under a new name, Venturing, with some new (or recycled) program elements. Exploring is doing just fine, with 116,589 youth in 5,285 posts as of the end of 2012 — a 3.28% membership gain over 2011.

        Explorer posts are chartered just like traditional BSA units and are supported by Councils just like BSA units, but Learning for Life/Exploring doesn’t really advertise its relationship to BSA.

        After the pending proposal is defeated at the vote in May, a lot of people are going to be looking around and trying to figure out what to do. Some will be thinking about alternative Scouting organizations. Some will be thinking about whether a split is inevitable, as we are discussing here.

        It seems to me that a viable solution — created and already used by BSA for this exact problem — is sitting there right in front of us. Set up a parallel Scouting program within Learning for Life. It will be fully inclusive, meaning that it would not only welcome gays, but also girls and atheists — a triple play. We already have a full-blown program that will just need some tweaking to account for the membership differences. We already have the infrastructure for a complete national program. Out of respect for the concerns of the more conservative folks remaining in the traditional BSA program, there would _not_ be “joint” activities (camporees, roundtables, adult leader training) at the local level; summer camps would do what they could to separate the two programs. Both programs would have Eagle Scouts.

        And we keep everyone in the BSA family. Seems better to me than a huge membership loss.

        Difficult, yes, but not as difficult as building new programs from scratch.

    • I think BSA should do what is right and not sweat over the membership.

      If BSA would have looked at dominant popular culture of 1910, and restricted BSA membership to only those who were a part of that culture, BSA never would have grown the way it did.

      Don’t worry about pleasing the public, or even current members. Do the right thing, and the members will follow.

      • If you really believe that cwgmpls then build your own organization with the oaths, laws, and principles you believe in and see if a membership grows. I believe you really don’t believe that or this is what you or someone else would have already done. This is all about hijacking the BSA to create a wrongful spirit of acceptance of the militant homosexual agenda. If the homos are successful in stealing the BSA and creating some sort of false acceptance of their wrongful behaviors then they’ll use the BSA to beat over the heads of the Baptist Church, Methodist Church, Presbyterian Church (American), and Catholic Church in a similar fashion that the Presbyterian’s (USA), Lutheran’s, Episcopaleans, etc. are being used to beat over the heads of the BSA today. I hope you do the right thing and be at least true to yourself and leave the BSA alone and set out to build what you believe will be actractive to parents who want a safe, wholesome, Godly organization for their sons where they can be confident their children will be protected from harmful people who would have a desire to be harmful to them. The BSA strives to do this more than any other large organization I know. Do you really think the members are going to follow you? It would Shock the heck out of me. Shock me; I dare you to try.

      • I joined an organization the with the oaths, laws, and principles I believe in, in 1974. I stuck with it, and earned Eagle Scout in 1979. The oaths, laws, and principles I believe in remain the same today. BSA has done just fine with the oaths, laws, and principles it was founded on. There is no reason it can’t continue to do so in the future.

    • I hope the policy change is rejected and the BSA retains the level of expectation it has for membership which aligns with the oath and law scouts are going to take when they join. Wouldn’t make much sense to change the membership policy and invite youth and adults to join and then expect them to take an oath that contradicts the invitaion you made for them now would it. The scouts will be fine if the membership policy isn’t changed; why wouldn’t it. The reason it will be fine if the policy isn’t changed is because whatever reasons parents have of wanting their children involved in scouting today is going to be the same reasons parents are going to want their children involved in scouting in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years and beyond. If you change the policies and principles of the organization your stealing that opportunity for youth to aspire to the standards set forth by scouting today. These are timeless values for every new modern day.

      Scouting will always have its ups and downs with regard to membership and what’s going on in our American Culture. There will be a day when the major mass media’s attempts to dictate a wrongful American culture becomes more revealed; more of their lies revealed. When that day comes they will be replaced with a more truthful media; the change is already beginning. Does anybody remember after 9/11 how the major mass media even crumbled and knew not to bash our American Spirit of Freedom and they began singing God Bless America and supporting that prayerful people should pray to God for America again. Then time passed and they got back on their political bandwagon and started controlling our minds again by only allowing what they wanted to dictate to us to be broadcast. They are truly the evil ones in this day and age of our history. They are the bullhorn, the conduit, for all that is wrongful to have a voice to terrorize the majorities and try to control the silent majority to believe this and that is right and that this and that is wrong and if your not with what they tell you your supposed to be with then your an outsider and wrongful in what you think and believe. They are the whole reason our culture and society is upside down in many ways; what was wrongful and sinful is struggling to become the righteous and what was righteous is being called wrongful and sinful. Beware of that and how that media control is trying to change and destroy scouting; trying to change and destroy the USA.

      But a couple of things are for sure. God is in control of everything ultimately. There will be another day when our enemies will be successful in attacking us and murdering large numbers of people and causing tremendous devastation; Boston!! There will also be a day when our media will be forced by the American people to surrender their biased manipulation of truths and their political agenda to steal our freedoms and change our country to serve everyone else in the world except the ones their supposed to serve; AMERICANS. Everything has a season; its time. And the defenders of our American Freedoms will come out of the Godly people that are the real backbone of this country. The defenders of our Freedoms will come out of the BSA ranks too just as they have for more than a hundred years now. We have a responsibility to the children of today and the children to be born Americans in the future. We have a responsitlity to preserve everything that is right about America today and to prepare these next generations to “Be Prepared” to defend their freedoms and everything that is going to be right about the USA in their modern days to come. You don’t throw away everything that’s right and expect to make everything “better”. Build on what’s right and fix what’s wrong and this policy is not wrong for the mission the BSA is fulfilling for this nation.

      I keep hearing that there are homosexuals active in the BSA today; fine. If that’s true then I really see no reason to change the policy; why? The only purpose I could imagine would be a wrongful purpose of encouraging open homosexual behaviors and PDA’s to be exhibited throughout all BSA functions; exhibitionism. That’s all inappropriate anyway so why change the policy to make all of that more appropriate or tempting.

      Leave the policy unchanged and continue to operate with the principles traditionally known by everyone in the world what it means to say your a member of the BSA or your an Eagle Scout from the BSA; Its held with regard as a distinction of honor. People that want that for their children will have the opportunity to have that and people that want something else for their children can seek what they desire from other organizations or they are certainly free to follow their dreams and create an organization that they feel is desirable to enough people to sustain its existence; the BSA’s successfully done that by being who they are today.

  116. I’m still trying to understand what Scouts who want to preserve the 1991 policy statement that “homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirement in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight” “homosexuals do not provide a desirable role model for Scouts” are trying to accomplish.

    Please help me understand this.

    Do people who want to preserve the 1991 policy want to

    A) Ensure that their sons, and the boys in their troop, will never be lead by an openly homosexual adult, and will never encounter an openly homosexual boy in their troop?

    B) Ensure that all troops everywhere in the country are never lead by an openly homosexual adult, and that no openly homosexual boys are members of BSA anywhere?

    C) Send a strong and clear message to all Scouts, and to the rest of the country, that BSA believes that homosexual conduct is immoral and homosexual adults cannot be good role models for youth.

    D) Prevent BSA from being used as a platform to advocate for homosexual rights, and ensure that BSA never teaches that homosexual behavior is normative, acceptable behavior.

    E) Something else that I am missing?

    These strike me as several different things. I’m guessing there are various ways to address all of the above. But I don’t think we can have a productive conversation, and understand each others point of view, if we don’t have a common understanding of what we are trying to accomplish.

    Can someone help me out by clarifying which of the above it is hoped would be accomplished by maintaining BSA’s 1991 policy statement? Thanks.

  117. A lot of opinion floating around here. The growth or decline of the BSA is not the issue. If this passes then they have violated the oath and law. They will have broken faith with all those who came before them. The BIG 3 have already shown their true colors. They are selling our values for the funds that basically pay there retirement and salaries. Growth to them is MONEY not values and virtue. Either we stand for morals or we don’t. The folks can be nice, smart, helpfull or whatever but it is immoral. BSA is not a fan of cigarettes, cigars, dip, alcohol etc. but they are going to ask me to be fine and accepting of a life style that leads to eventual death or at minimum disease. BSA can not win this but they can stand and die on the HIGH GROUND.

    • Money does seem to be a major factor. In talking with my local scout executives, they are all concerned whether or not they will have a job when the dust settles regardless of the outcome of the vote.

      I do find it a great shame that BSA has not been more proactive in protecting and promoting the good name and image of BSA.

      What were Woodward and Bernstein instructed to do?
      Follow the money

      http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Critics-Blast-Boy-Scouts-for-CEOs-Million-Dollar-Compensation-94955859.html

      Leaders of the Scouts, based in Irving, sometimes travel first class, have memberships at private clubs and airport clubs, and the CEO earns more than $1 million in salary and compensation.

      “This is crazy. This is just crazy. First class tickets. Country clubs, Admirals Club? This is ridiculous,” said Ken Berger, president and CEO of Charity Navigator, which provides independent analysis of non-profit organizations.

      All charities are required to file a federal tax return that’s “open to public inspection.” The Scouts’ most recent report is for 2008. In it, WFAA found the Scouts’ chief executive, Robert Mazzuca, was paid $1.16 million in salary and other compensation.

      That’s 2.5 times more than his counterpart at the Girl Scouts, who took $453,000 home.

      “That is very, very, very unusual,” Berger said.

      The Scouts, who responded to WFAA in writing, say that its board “engages third-party executive compensation specialists to make recommendations regarding competitive compensation arrangements for like services in other organizations.”

      • That’s all very interesting. Seems the BSA needs to make some serious changes but not in the membership policy. How do the members take the organization back?

  118. The LDS statement makes clear that the pending proposal is acceptable because they are okay with gay youth under a strict code of behavior, but adults is a whole different deal. I think many will view adoption of the pending proposal as the first step in acceptance of open homosexuals in BSA, and it won’t be long before the ban is lifted for adults as well — a view that is contrary to the LDS conditional approval. If the pending youth-only proposal is passed, is there — realistically — any way to hold the line there?

    • What were the chances of the proposed policy passing if the LDS had said “no”? I’d say about zero.

      What is the chance that the LDS church would ever allow openly gay men into Scouting? I’d say about zero.

      Those who don’t want openly gay adults in BSA have nothing to worry about, now or in the future. The LDS church has their back. And standing right beside them is the Roman Catholic church. Their position on gay adults will not change. Ever.

      There is no risk of allowing gay adults into Scouting. It will never happen. The only risk is BSA losing its nonsectarian foundation. Now that we know who calls the shots, it is clear that has already been lost.

      • I don’t think the pending proposal will pass, even with LDS’s consent, It isn’t like they are enthusiastically endorsing it, after all. But if it did pass, I think lifting the ban entirely is not far behind, despite the opposition of the major churches. It might come as a result of a lawsuit, it might come simply as a result of executive board turnover over time, but probably it is going to come just because there is no logic in allowing gay youth but not gay adults.

        What is the difference to the program and to the youth in the program between an openly gay adult leader and an openly gay 17-year-old Senior Patrol Leader? What is the difference between a 20-year-old openly gay Venturer and a 20-year-old openly gay Assistant Scoutmaster? Imagine an openly gay Boy Scout who completes all of his Eagle rank requirements up through the Scoutmaster conference on the day before his 18th birthday. He’ll be having his Eagle Scout board of review at the same time he’s not fit to be an adult member of BSA. There isn’t any logic there, and I think everyone knows that.

        Regardless of the outcome of this vote, the homosexual issue will not be settled, and we’ll just be in a holding action waiting for the event that will cause the LDS and other major churches and conservative institutions to drop BSA.

        I suggest that what we should be thinking about is a way to both keep the churches and have a fully inclusive program. That won’t happen with some compromise like the pending proposal or the local option. But maybe it can come through restructuring BSA.

      • I agree the proposal is fundamentally nonsense. As if something magical happens the moment a boy turns from 17 to 18.

        Still, the LDS backing is more than enough nudge to push it through. The prayer of every executive council member for every night for the last six months is how they can tell the world they are doing something to welcome gays into BSA, without pissing off the Mormons and Catholics at the same time. Now they’ve found their magical, nonsensical policy that just might do the trick.

        Maybe we can set up a betting website in the Cayman Islands and put money on it?

      • I agree Dan. What I am hearing is they said it to deflect the most rabid attacks from the left and explain the member policy of the Church toward homosexuals but that is speculation I am sure.

    • John, thank you for posting the link. I didn’t know what the “Uni-sex” Scout link was and just now read it. It is excellent and all posters here should read it.

      This is the last part and spot on for our discussion:

      “He (father) notes with wry irritation that Luke’s teachers are apt to wag their fingers at perfectly innocent things, like cupcakes in a lunchbox, but will cheer when a boy publicizes his entry into the bizarre and self-destructive.

      But it isn’t just the pitfalls that the father is thinking of. It occurs to him that the Boy Scouts and he have come to an impasse. There is no reconciling them. The Boy Scouts now proclaim that there is nothing to being a boy, and nothing to the boy’s becoming a man; they might as well be the Unisex Scouts, as they are in Canada, where the scouting movement has collapsed.

      In other words, Luke’s father is being asked to enroll his son in a group specifically limited to boys, but one that does not recognize the nature of boyhood and its progress to manhood. Thus there is no real justification for the group; that its membership is male is accidental and not of the essence. He and they do not see the same being in Luke. He sees his boy, and the man-to-be; they see a neuter. He sees a father-in-training; they see an immature human thing, a bundle of appetites that are not in themselves subject to moral judgment.

      What is the father supposed to do? He can recall that better time, that healthier time, and can name several boys he knew who, if they were boys today, would inevitably be enticed, by loneliness or a trick of the lewd or boredom or a desperate need to be noticed or a despair that they could ever become true men, into the life of the male forever seeking the male.

      He knows that most of them weathered the storms, precisely because the assumption that a boy is a boy gave them protection, some breathing space, some time to sort out their feelings and to grow up. He wants for Luke some small survival of that better time.

      Where can Luke’s father turn? To the only institution left standing that affirms the goodness of human nature, both masculine and feminine. Grace perfects nature, said Thomas Aquinas. In this time, grace is needed merely to recognize that there is a nature to begin with. In this time, it is impossible to raise any real man without trying to raise a godly man. This is not icing. It is of the essence of manhood and womanhood.

      Luke will know, if but intuitively, that his calling as a Christian, to leave his selfishness behind, to enter what Saint Paul calls the glorious liberty of the children of God, implies the just use of his sexual powers: to give, if God calls him, his body and his heart forever to the woman he loves. That won’t teach him how to pitch a tent in the woods. It might teach him how to build a home in a wasteland.

      Anthony Esolen is Professor of English at Providence College in Providence, Rhode Island, and the author of Ten Ways to Destroy the Imagination of Your Child and Ironies of Faith. He has translated Tasso’s Gerusalemme liberata and Dante’s The Divine Comedy.

    • Nice try, that’s why they take the vote. At least my Mormon friend s voting the will of the Council which is to not approve. Let’s let the vote happen.

      What does cwgmpls stand for anyway? Is it an acronym?

  119. Wallace, According to the Executive Summary of the report:

    “They estimate a membership policy change that includes both youth and adults could cause the BSA to incur membership losses in a range from 100,000 to 350,000. It is believed any gain in membership because of a change to the membership policy related to youth and adults would be in the range of 10,000 to 20,000 youth.”

    And one point to remember, that the original proposal was for the policy to be punted to the local councils. This policy change – especially as it is worded – is going to come across as the “Key 3” trying to shove their agenda down the local councils’ throats. At least in my opinion.

    If those numbers are anywhere near accurate, even the BEST case shift in membership will be devastating.

    You know, the principle of being “morally straight” has nothing to do with sexual preference. It has to do with things like integrity and rightness before God. Taking the narrow road rather than the wide road and not compromising on principles or character. In this the Executive Council has completely let us down.

  120. Reading through everyone’s comments here, you all seem to be fighting each other. There are personal attacks on each other, there are attacks on each others CO’s, there are attacks on the BSA, and attacks on religion.

    It doesn’t matter what faith you follow, doesn’t each of our gods teach us in one way or another to love one and another, to love thy neighbour, to treat another as you would want o be treated.

    Isn’t there a parallel between scouting and religion teaching trust, respect understanding. Get a group of people together give then a law or policy, some will agree, some will object, and some will sit on the fence. We all need to learn to respect each other, we all have equal rights.

    Scouting isn’t a place to teach religion to our kids. Religion isn’t like teaching a kid how to tie a knot, religion belongs in the family unit, not in the Troop, not in the Den, not at the campsite. Let the parents teach religion to their kids, let us show the kids what scouting is all about.

    Put “OUT”, back into “scOUTing”

  121. For background– I am a devout, Bible studying, believing, and living, born-again, saved LDS Christian, from a family with 4 sisters (no brothers), now the mother of two boys and a daughter. Our younger son isn’t yet of scouting age. Our older son (a young teen) has decided against participating in our congregation’s outdoorsy and sporting (the majority of our) scouting activities because he has some developmental issues that make outdoor and athletic activities not just difficult, but painful, un-enjoyable, and non-productive for him. He is willing to forgo the accompanying patches, rank advancements, and awards, in spite of great social pressure to achieve them. We support his independence from social pressure and his involvement in church and scouting service projects, social activities, and the like which are of interest and important to his development as a Christian young man. Our church doesn’t need scouting for that. We believe he can grow to be a good, productive, involved, loyal citizen of the U.S. without scouting as well. And I look forward to the day the LDS church ends its affiliation with an organization that is expensive, time consuming, hierarchical in non-Christian ways, and which addresses the needs of many, maybe even a majority of boys, but not all. When used by church organizations, it creates the perception that in order to be righteous, a boy must also be into scouting. And that’s just hogwash. It also creates a gender divide, as (has been pointed out) GSA simply doesn’t have the moral underpinnings harmonious with religious organizations to be compatible.

    All of that said, I think the distinction the newly proposed policy is trying to make is that temptation is different than sin, and church (and scouting programs used by churches) policies should reflect that. In the LDS church, celibate homosexuals may serve in any church function but only when they are living and teaching in accordance with church (and scriptural) teachings. Regardless of the outcome of this particular BSA policy proposal, I hope that churches will end their affiliation with BSA and create their own activity programs for youth (boys and girls). The LDS church has done so internationally. There is no reason it can’t do so here in the U.S. as well.

    • LDS teachings about homosexuals have no more to do with Scouting than Muslim teachings about women, or Catholic teachings about the Eucharist, or Lutheran teachings about salvation. Those are sectarian teachings which are outside the bounds of traditional Scouting.

  122. I am a Scoutmaster in Madison, WI and a life-long Scout and Brotherhood OA member. Over the past three months I have read the many, many blog posts where membership policy debates/discussions have led to divisive, derogatory and hateful statements which are directed at fellow Scouts and Scouters. Ladies and gentlemen, we must conduct ourselves in a more mature fashion and follow the Scout Oath and Law.

    Now, I am finally going to share my thoughts on this hot-topic issue.

    Many of those who are opposed to a change in membership policy cite the following reasons for their dissent:

    1. Homosexuality is seen as amoral in the eyes of God.
    2. Homosexual Scouts and Scouters are going to want to have sex with other Scouts and Scouters during camping trips and/or Scouting events.
    3. This is a political move on the part of an “agenda”.

    We can argue all day and night about whether or not homosexuality is amoral. What we have discussed over an over is that not all religious organizations agree on this point. Yes, many chartering organizations are churches but not all churches agree on the point of homosexuality being a sin in the eyes of God.

    The point that always astonishes me is that many argue that homosexual Scouts and Scouters are going to attempt to have sex with other Scouts and Scouters on camping trips. This is irrational fear, in my opinion. Female Scout leaders are not likely to have sex with other Scouts or Scouters on a camping trip yet we allow females to be leaders in the BSA. Likewise, I don’t believe homosexuals are lining up to join the BSA so they can have “relations” with folks of the same sex.

    I have noticed that many are quick to label this discussion as an attempt to “destroy Scouting” by those support “the gay agenda”. What exactly is the “gay agenda”? What we are witnessing today is the desire on the part of homosexuals to participate in the movement of Scouting as equal members.

    By denying membership to a young man or any adult based solely on the basis of sexual orientation, I believe we are depriving our youth of countless benefits. Who knows how many talented potential Scouters we are barring from membership in the BSA? Doctors, lawyers, pastors, nurses, salespersons, engineers, wildlife biologists, foresters, professors, farmers, etc.

    My point boils down to the fact that I don’t believe sexuality has a place in Scouting. What we are seeing is a focus on sex and sexuality rather than concentrating on providing an environment of growth through Scouting by allowing all to join our Packs, Troops, Teams and Crews..

    Yours in Scouting,

    Christopher Beaver
    Scoutmaster, Troop 29

    • Chris Beaver, Questions 4u. Do you think openly homosexual 17 year old scouts are more of a threat to molest a 12 or 13 year old homo or hetero scout than a 17 year old hetero scout? What is your answer based on? How should the BSA respond to the media when the first molestation or rape of boy in boy occurs and the media wants accountability on why the BSA changed their policy to allow the liklihood of this human tragedy to occur? What will the BSA do to protect the character and reputation of the Leader who will be held responsible and accountable for “allowing” this tragedy to occur? What will the scoutmaster say to the victims gamily after their child has been molested and raped and his young life has been ruined by this tragic sexual attack? How will the BSA be able to afford the legal fees to defend all the negligence cases brought against everyone involved in the lawsuits as a result of these assaults; we all know the wrath of some ambulance chasing lawyers? I wouldn’t think of the best case scenarios when trying to prepare for the worst case incidents that will happen eventually. Be a wise scout and “be prepared” for the likely reality of the worst case scenario; pass the policy change and its only a matter of time…. doesn’t take a crystal ball to see those truths unfolding.. Just look at the world today…

      • Folks, there are already gay leaders and scouts in scouting and yet we don’t have the “sky is falling” situation that a few here suggest. Likewise the YMCA which is an inclusive Christian organization does not either. They have camp outs too and have managed to figure it out just like scouting has in other parts of the world. We can too, the models already exist.

      • Do you honestly believe there have never been a problems with homosexuals and heterosexuals in the YMCA camp outs? Before you say something so wreckless why don’t you do some research Todd Kunze? And for all the scouts that were molested or raped in the BSA by hetero or homosexual scouts don’t you think their sky fell and they’ll live with the tragic attack and the trauma it created in their soul for the rest of their life on this earth. Now is the time to prevent the sky from falling for the boy who will be the first victim of molestation or rape directly related to changing the membership policy and allowed the homosexual pedophile to openly join the BSA. Will the BSA choose to openly welcome these predators into the organization where their behavior will result in the tragic victimization of boys between the ages of 10 to 17? How many molestations or rapes will be too many before the membership policy is changed back or the BSA faces loosing all members because parent will withdrawl their children? I say one is too many. And who normally pays the rechartering fee for the boy scout? I’m going to venture to say that
        %99.999+ its the parent. Their not going to enroll their son in an orgainization that knowingly has a membership policy that allows openly homosexual boys and men to leark in their ranks.

      • Thank you, Mr. Wallace, for your response. However, I believe your comment fits in with my second point that many exhibit an irrational fear that homosexual members are going to want to have sex with other members of the unit. I firmly believe this is a non-issue if membership changes comes to pass later this month. Also, we have already seen that sexual abuse has occurred in the BSA and this was not because of homosexuality. Rather, it was the result of pedophilia.

      • Wouldn’t it be foolish LeCastor to believe that homosexual boys wouldn’t be attracted to other members of their troop. Wouldn’t it be foolish to believe that teenage homosexual boys with the raging hormones of a teenager wouldn’t be more likely to find a target for their homosexual desires within their troop than possibly other places in their social networks? Am I supposed to believe that homosexual boys are saintly now and that they will not feel sexual desire toward those they sexually desire; boys and men? Human sexuality is deeply rooted within all of us; a core drive within all of us whether hetero or homo. If your a homosexual 17 year old scout and my son is an attractive 14 year old hetero scout then do you think I’m going to be worried as a parent that my son is under your supervision and a subordinate possibly in your patrol or certainly in your troop if your an Eagle Rank and he’s a first class scout. If you made advances toward my son because you misunderstood something he might have done or said to lead you to believe he was interested in you sexually then would it be wrongful for my son to defend himself; should he have to deal with this issue in the BSA; a place he thought he had sanctuary from this type of behavior? Homosexual boys and adults should simply find other organizations where they can knowingly be together if that’s their desire. The BSA has decided they are not that place…. never have been…

    • Christopher Beaver you are right about hateful comments they are unnecessary and doesn’t help the move the cause along but this is America today and we have to live with it unfortunately. The big problem is division and that is what the National Board has caused. They should have left the issue of homosexuality alone. There was no way they could to solve it and there was no way the majority of Scoutleaders would except it. I believe that the National Board was trying to find a way to gain more support from pressure from the Fortune 500 Companies that have funded the BSA for years. Those companies have come to the point of telling the BSA to change its policies on homosexuals and legally allow them in or they would no longer finance the BSA. This is a true tragedy and definately un- American. What if the customers of these companies stopped patronizing them if they did not stop promoting homosexuals. The shoe would be on the other foot and it would lead to financial warfare. There are statements that say Scouting is not a religious organization Iwill leave that up to the future. I say the the BSA should not be a politIcal correct organization. Christopher the blogs were necessary even though divisive and at times as you state hateful to allow a overall consenses of the future of the BSA. After 103 years the BSA has proven itself as the greatist youth organization in the United States and across the World. I see no timeless values in changing the core values of the BSA. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • “They should have left the issue of homosexuality alone”

        I wholeheartedly agree. Starting around 1984, it was a fools errand for churches to think they could interject teaching about homosexuality into the core values of BSA. It has been nothing but trouble for BSA ever since.

        Get back to the timeless, core values of the Scout Oath and Law, and leave sex out of Scouting. That is the only way forward for BSA.

    • I’d like to clarify my positions in response to your post. I, too am a Scoutmaster in Georgia and long-time Brotherhood member of the OA.

      I agree with you that we all should maintain a civil discourse. There are several posters on here that I disagree with completely but we have been able to stay mostly civil. I a posters gets gets overly strident in their opinion, I sometimes respond to that and I work on that but it is a volatile issue with clearly defined moral objections both sides support. But, we should maintain civility if at all possibel.

      Christopher Beaver said: “1. Homosexuality is seen as amoral in the eyes of God.”

      I think you meant to say “immoral” in the eyes of God and conservatives who follow the Bible literally. I think the progressives on this list think amoral may well be a virtue that homosexuals adhere to in their persona.

      Definition of AMORAL
      1a : being neither moral nor immoral; specifically : lying outside the sphere to which moral judgments apply
      b : lacking moral sensibility
      2: being outside or beyond the moral order or a particular code of morals

      I think some of the more liberal posters seell homosexuality as amoral and not subject to a determination of morality by others

      Christopher Beaver said:2. “Homosexual Scouts and Scouters are going to want to have sex with other Scouts and Scouters during camping trips and/or Scouting events.”

      I only see this as a potential problem for “promiscuous open and avowed homosexuals.” I don’t think anybody knows what will happen if you throw open and avowed homosexuals together in a tent in the woods. A boy and girl would probably end up having sex if they promiscuous. Growing up and not a Scout, that was not that uncommon as a teenager but looking back it was not a positive thing for the boy or the girl and no morals are values were attempted to be taught in that scenario. But, it would be foolish to believe it is not possible and as a Scoutmaster, I do not want my checklist to include the possibility when Scouts are bedding down for the night. Just not in my orbit and I do not want it there. So, I clarify I don’t expect orgies but once is way too many times for me and I believe such a possibility is not in the best interests of Youth or Scouting.

      Christopher Beaver said: “3. This is a political move on the part of an “agenda”.”

      I absolutely believe this is true on behalf of some Scouters and non-Scouters. I have also said that we all have an “agenda.” we all support certain morals and values and will promote and defend those on sites such as this. I don’t see how you couldn’t believe that watching the wa the homosexual community and activists have forced inclusion in so many other organizations.

      Christopher Beaver said: “My point boils down to the fact that I don’t believe sexuality has a place in Scouting. What we are seeing is a focus on sex and sexuality rather than concentrating on providing an environment of growth through Scouting by allowing all to join our Packs, Troops, Teams and Crews..”

      How can you have “open avowed” homosexuals and not have sexuality in Scouting. BSA is just asking us to live with it and handle no matter our personal beliefs of the beliefs of our CO. I posted on another thread the following:

      > The interpretation Mike wrote correcting me, and was subsequently confirmed by
      > the national teleconference last night and a posting by BSA’s counsel, states
      > that a unit must take a youth who applies as an openly homosexual youth, and
      > must do so even if the CO specifically prohibits that behavior/orientation.

      So, I’m out. My CO is out. My Scouts and parents are out because we asked and they do not want “open avowed” homosexuals in their Unit being held up to their children as role models. To stay, they will have to conform to the new Policy under any and all circumstances according to BSA legal. So, who has been denied Scouting?

      Fred Cooper
      Scoutmaster

      • BSA will collapse; in time. and that would be right. It will be God’s hand in making sure something He had a hand in creating collapses from our disobedience. It won’t be the end of it though. The spirit will still be there and from the ashes will come something better. There doesn’t have to be a BSA; it was a blessing given to all if us by Him through the Holy Spirit working through so many dedicated volunteers who gave so much to the movement. Homosexuals will steal and hijack it and beat God and Godly people over the head with it claiming some sort of perverted victory. Good luck with that strategy leading to hell… I hope a lot of people resign but one thing is for sure; the boys will be the judges in the end when it comes time to charter. Silly to have a youth program with no youth. Think a teenage boy’s going to want to be associated with the BSA ehen their reputation becomes perverted to mean the homo scouts. I was a boy once; long time ago. I’m not stupid about what boys think and I know their not going to become associated with an organization known to have openly homo boys in it. It’ll all be about the first homo boy to do this or that and the media will shove it all down our cultures throat and the boys will quickly become disassociated. Their boys; they’ll be the ultimate judges, juries and executioners… “be prepared”

    • Why do we pay so much attention to what the LDS church says about gays? Why don’t we pay the same attention to what the Muslim faith says about pork? BSA is *nonsectarian*. It should not matter, one whit, to BSA, what LDS teaches about anything.

      We should respect everything that every church teaches. But we should not be paying attention to it when trying to form BSA policies.

      • cw, I agree with u on one thing you agreed to do; you should respect the members of the Christian Faith and be tolerant of our beliefs. You should discontinue your bigotry and be thankful for the contributions Christians have made to the BSA, and this Nation. You should discontinue your racist attacks against Christians and hetero people in general. You should respect the wishes of the majority and stop terrorizing the BSA membership with your anti American speech trying to limit constitutional freedoms. This is a battle you and your homo militant activists will never win; you have no real voice and you have no real supporters.. you are humurous 2 me; manipulative, controlling and a liar…

      • I am thankful for all of the contributions Christians have made to BSA. Particularly their decision, from the beginning, to include all people of faith into BSA equally. This openness to all faiths and religions is what allowed Jews, Universalists, Muslims and others to contribute greatly to BSA form the beginning, and what allowed BSA to grow throughout the 20th century, a time which saw enormous shifts in U.S. religious life. Through it all, BSA continued to grow, because BSA was nonsectarian at its care.

        But as great as the contributions of Christians have been, as far as I know, no Christian church has bought BSA, and no Christian church owns BSA today. Correct me if I am wrong.

        Since Christians do not own BSA, and BSA remains nonsectarian as it has from the beginning, we can expect BSA to keep sectarian religious teachings out of Scouting.

      • It matters for practical reasons. Since the LDS church is one of the major sponsors of Scouting units, their official (and/or unofficial) opinion carries weight.

        I agree with you that it shouldn’t necessarily matter, but it does.

        IMHO, you are correct. We don’t ban bacon from camporee menus because it would offend Jews or Muslims. We don’t do away with camp medics because Christian Scientists don’t accept doctors. We don’t ban women or make them wear head scarves because of Sharia restrictions. We leave for camp on Friday, even though that’s not allowed in some religions; and we return on Sunday, even though that doesn’t work for some.

        What we do say is that if you don’t want bacon, don’t eat it. If you need to wear a head covering (scarf or yarmulke), wear it. If you need to come to camp on Saturday morning, do so. If you need to leave Sunday night, that’s fine. If you prefer not to go to the hospital if you have an accident, note it on the medical form.

        That’s respecting and tolerating other religions. I respect your religious beliefs by allowing you to practice them, not by following them myself.

        (That wasn’t pointed at you specifically, but at several others on this board who seem to take the tact that respecting their religioun requires universal adoption of their beliefs.)

      • And if you don’t like gays, walk the other way when you see one coming. Don’t impose your religious beliefs on others.

      • For me it was not about the church but about the content of the article. It matters not who published it. I would have referenced whichever church that wrote that article. I was hoping to find more articles supporting this half proposal by other churches to post as well.

      • Of course the LDS church is going to support this new half-proposal. It reads like an Introduction to Mormon Sex Education class. The core teachings about Mormon sexual morality are there.

        My question is, why do we have any teachings about sexual morality in Scouting? And if we are going to have sex teachings, why do Mormons get to pick which ones? Why not Lutherans, or Episcopalians?

        I’d like to see a list of the churches that have a voice with the BSA executive committee. BSA is *nonsectarian*. Why is it listening to any of them?

      • I agree cwgmpls. I hope there are no religious organizations with a say in this “proposal” or the vote involved in the membership policy.

        Yesterday for the first time I had a conversation with the Troop CC and he feels that the policy will pass. He did say that he supports inclusion.

  123. cwgmpls-

    You represent equality well on this site. This straight, assistant scoutmaster, merit badge counselor, scouting parent is glad you are on the side of equality. Your tone is to be commended, and the merit of your position shines in comparison to those offered in support of bigotry.

    My two cents: we allow overweight people, divorced people, heterosexual adulterer, liars- all sorts of “sinners.” But we don’t extent that same courtesy to gay people, and that’s wrong. Every major faith tradition honors the concept of extending kindness and love to everyone- and especially sinners. So no matter what you think of homosexuality, there is no good reason to exclude them unless we’re going to start applying that standard equally by kicking out every overweight, divorced volunteer in the organization.

    And we’re not going to do that, are we? Because that will impact people that we respect. People who have made mistakes. People that may act differently than WE do because they have different values. But we welcome them because they are more than the sum of their mistakes. They have something offer, and we have something to give.

    Why not extend the same courtesy, kindness, and compassion to homosexuals that we do to heterosexuals? What would Jesus do?

    • Good points. But I’m not sure BSA has to be asking about Jesus, any more than it asks about Allah or the Pope. But I’m sure your point will resonate with Christians among us.

    • Sean, cwgmpls is not the nicest guy on this list and neither am I so please don’t make a blanket statements condemning everybody but him. So, you think we’re all bigots also. Refuge in name-calling has been tried here many times. Your position is just as bigoted against free expression of religious beliefs.

      That must be some happening Troop if you allow all those actively fallen people to participate as leaders and an understanding CO as well. The leaders of the Troop and CO approved them so whose fault is that? They would not be in our Troop. Most of the sinners you mention do not define themselves by their sexuality as homosexuals do. Overweight people don’t want to share fat with you. An active adulterer would not be in a Troop that has peer review for leaders,

      Open, avowed Homosexuality is a behavior that I do not believe should be in Scouting. Its not morally straight or clean in my opinion. None of us are perfecta and allow for folks to repent from sin but as best as I can tell, open and avowed means they are engaging in the behavior.

      I think its clear what Jesus would do. he followed the Law of Moses which called homosexuality immoral. His appointed Apostle Paul clearly stated what God wanted said after Jesus died and rose again. It is very clear that it is immorality. Do not live in it. Go and sin no more.

      • Fred,
        I must confess that I am not a biblical scholar. You site the law of Moses and the writings of Paul the Apostle. As you say it is clear what Jesus would do, can you tell us what He had to say on the subject of homosexuality, or what He did about it when He walked among us?

      • You’re late to the party. Its been posted several times by me and others on this thread. Juts read the thread an you will find it.

      • Fred,
        I just read everything you posted to the beginning of this thread. I see reference to the Old Testament and to Paul’s epistles. I can’t seem to find what Jesus himself actually said about homosexuality in the 3 decades he was here on earth. Did he have a policy excluding homosexuals from the ranks of his disciples? I’m not asking what would Jesus do. I’m asking what DID Jesus do, so that we can have His example to guide us in this decision.

      • Brian I can answer that in one paragraph he followed the will and teachings of his Father and our Father God himself. Maybe one day you can ask Jesus Christ himself on Judgement day when it will be to late. Jesus is ready for us will the homosexuals be ready for him.Trenton Spears

      • Trenton,
        If we are to believe that the will and teachings of
        his Father are contained in the Old Testament, then how do we explain Jesus stopping the crowd from stoning an adulteress, as prescribed by God’s law. This is the closest thing I can see in the gospels of Jesus’ actions and words regarding issues of a sexual nature. I believe his response was to let he who is without sin cast the first stone. By His words and actions, I do not see my Lord and savior asking me to sit in judgement of homosexuals. If you think that this is the only sin so abominable that it needs a special rule banning the sinners from scouting, I am wondering why do you think Jesus never brought up this issue during his days on earth. He said a lot about loving thy neighbor, not sitting in judgement. He also said whatever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me. I will be happy to speak to the Lord on judgement day about how I treated his homosexual children with the same love and respect as his other children. I wish you and all of God’s children nothing but the best.

      • Jesus the Mesiah came to fulfill His Word not to change it. That’s what Jesus himself described to be His purpose. He came to show sinners the way to everlasting life in heaven with God and Himself; forgiveness through His blood sacrifice being the only way. Open homosexuals are simply not welcome in the BSA by the vast majority of its members for a broad array if reasons with the least not being Youth Protection. Doesnt mean I’m hateful, intolerant, a bigot or a racist. Just means I don’t like homosexuality and I don’t want it in the BSA. Discussing it is even repulsive to me although talking about it might give a homo a kick of some sort? Its ok that I honestly feel that homosexual men are repulsive to me; its a natural feeling of a hetero man. Most men (99%+) are not homosexual and are repulsed by homosexual behavior too. To pretend homosexual behavior isn’t sinful is a mistake. There are good reasons for someone to choose to mold their lives to biblical principles whether hetero or homo. If you choose to want to live a life in a close relationship with God then you have to freely choose to read His Word, Ask the Holy Spirit into your heart through Baptism and ask for forgiveness for sinful behavior. If your prayerful and are truly seeing answers to your questions you’ll find them by listening to the Holy Spirit uf you’ve freely chosen to accept baptism and be born if a new spirit. His Holy Spirit is free and your free to choose His Spirit. U can be a homosexual and a Christian but but you have to surrender sin in your life and ask forgiveness to be saved. Can’t change Biblical principles.

  124. Brian We could spent a lot of time dicussing the teachings of Jesus Christ and God the Father. What is most important is that Jesus Christ after he stopped the stoning of Mary Madaline he said to her repent and sin no more which means she had broken Gods laws and would face his judgement some day and be judged according to the laws of God based on the saving ordinance of repenting. Brian what needs to be observed is the BSA is trying to allow homosexuals into a program that the homosexuals will have a hard time repenting of and many will most likely keep practicing the sin. Supporting Gods teachings is in no way judgemental or bigotry. Brian I think you will admit as a Christian that there is a judgement day that all Christians will face. Brian we are placing our youth in harms way with the new proposal by the National Board. I believe that the homosexuals should start their own scout related program and form a basis so that they can practice according to their own beliefs if that is the issue. Equality can also be gained by any group if the desire is there. Forcing equality is not the American or Scouting way. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

    • Trenton Spears: “What is most important is that Jesus Christ after he stopped the stoning of Mary Madaline he said to her repent and sin no more which means she had broken Gods laws and would face his judgement some day and be judged according to the laws of God based on the saving ordinance of repenting.”

      Trenton, Mary Magdalene is not the woman whom Jesus saved from stoning. (She was not named in the Bible.) Mary Magdalene was a woman whom he cured through exorcism of the demons that possessed her, and who then became one of his followers. Nowhere in the Bible does it say she was the one being stoned or that she was guilty of any form of sexual immorality.

      • I saw what Trenton posted and I knew the theologian would come out in somebody. 😉

        I give Trenton the benefit of the doubt. His point is valid. NIce “straw man” though AZMIke. I hope you were just trying to help Trenton out.

        I have said many times that folks should follow through with the whole scripture. Jesus did in fact say “Go and sin no more.” I believe he would have said the same thing to the homosexual.

        The mistaken reference to Mary Magdalene is a fairly common one. Some doctrines believe that I have heard.

      • Yes, Jesus said sin no more. So am I to understand that only those that sin no more should be allowed in scouting? Who gets to judge what is a real sin or not and also if a sin really was committed? Whose religion do we go by in coming up with such definitions?

      • Todd K said: “Yes, Jesus said sin no more. So am I to understand that only those that sin no more should be allowed in scouting? Who gets to judge what is a real sin or not and also if a sin really was committed? Whose religion do we go by in coming up with such definitions?”

        Those living in sin should not be in Scouting. Adulterers, Open and avowed homosexuals, pedophiles, alcoholics, drug addicts, habitual liars and cheats. We all fail but those that fail habitually are not repentant and unfit to be Scout Leaders who should set an example for young men to follow.

        If sin is not readily apparent, then the moral code of the participants is undefined. The leadership of the organization of like-minded individuals defines the code.by defining it. That is the struggle for the soul of the organization we are having. At present, the moral code (policy) of BSA excludes open and avowed homosexuals. I agree with it and it is compatible with biblical scripture.

        We do not follow a particular religion but a common moral code that as defined by BSA excludes homosexuals. The religion does not determine that, it only reinforces it according to the holy scripture of the religion of which the vast majority believe homosexuality is immoral.

        Seems clear to me. If er adopt the proposed policy, we lower the bar for teh moral code. People and organizations of high moral standards will leave. People accepting low moral standards will stay but will continue to agitate because their stand is not a principled one and they can stay involved with an organization they do not agree to continue to try to lower the moral standards. Seems clear to me.

      • Actually, those who will stay if the policy changes do have principals. They simply have different principals than you have.

      • Beth, I am entirely in agreement with your statement on differing principles as I stated in the reply.

      • Fred,
        You actually said “their stand is not a principled one” Not principled is quite a different thing from having different principles. I do have to give you points for using the word principle as apposed to principal, which we will have to agree applies to the leaders of the schools that our scouts attend 😉

      • I’m sorry for the confusion. I guess the best answer is; “Principled stand” is in the “eyes of the beholder”

      • Charles,
        In Matthew 19 1-8. Jesus said that once a man and woman become one flesh, what God has joined, let no man separate. Shall we now restrict divorced heterosexuals from the BSA, as they are not following God’s law as.. well I guess they are following the law of Moses that was NOT affirmed by Christ, but in fact changed by Christ. Unless we follow a Jewish tradition, Mathew 19 1-8 shows us that Christ did not uphold all of the law of Moses. Interesting, contradictory to those who say we must follow the Law of Moses (except for the parts about bacon, shrimp and other stuff we like) Of course the argument is those were things (dietary laws of God from the old testament) that most Christians now ignore were meant to keep the Jews heathy so their numbers would flourish as these thing back in the day could bring on disease. Hmm.. homosexuals also don’t increase are numbers as they do not reproduce…also important back in the day, but not so much now. Love one another..Thats a concept I can understand and I heard Christ say that many times, Love one another..who doesn’t feel good when he hears those words from God, but I never heard him gay bashing. Love all of Gods children, or sit in judgement of some and spew hatred. WWJD? I can’t understand how people can call themselves Christians and be so unlike Christ. I freely admit that I do not believe everything in the Bible. The pork thing, allowing slavery, subjugating women, you know the old testament stuff that Christ never went for. Paul was a good man, but not a perfect man, and you may think everything he said came straight from God, but I don’t see it. So what does scouting do? Is it fair to say the worst of the homosexuals are maybe not pedophiles but pederasts, even worse for us because they prey on teenagers, although AZMike tells us that ” Many homosexuals, and many heterosexuals, find teenagers attractive and seek to have sex with them without being considered “pedophiles.” They are just immoral ADULTS who would have sex with a teenager, in violation of moral, cultural, and legal standards. We seek to prevent this behavior by denying adults of any sexual orientation access to youths they would victimize, ” So I guess to be safe we should exclude the homosexuals AND the heterosexuals. And while we are at it, Didn’t those two Muslims in Boston but their pressure cooker bombs in backpacks. The last thing we need is Muslims with backpacks at a Jamboree. And despite AZMike’s praise of Pope Benedict…news flash…he is now Pope emeritus Benedict. Can we really be sure that Pope Francis will be able to keep all of those gay priests in check. We have our children to protect, so lets exclude Catholic churches from chartering scout organizations, because can we really expect scoutmaster Bob to tell Father Bruce that he can’t come on the next camping trip. Oh and while we are at it, Blacks and Hispanics, come on, they don’t even LOOK like us. Mormans, are we really sure they are not just waiting to get back into polygamy…how immoral is that!
        OK so no divorce people, homosexuals, heterosexuals, Catholics, Blacks, Hispanics, Mormans, I’m still on the fence about pork enthusiasts, and how did I forget the Jews who KILLED our Lord and Savior!
        Or how about this…LOVE ONE ANOTHER…ACCEPT ALL OF GOD’S CHILDREN…JUDGE NOT..
        Nah, I guess you guys are right..easier to just pick on the homosexuals, the only real sinners out there. OK lets vote!

      • We finally agree. Enough parsing and re-thinking and theological misdirection and enough bullcrap. Your ad hominem argument is ridiculous. Let’s vote!

        As I said at the beginning. BSA has sold out to the money interests and the least experienced and most immature Scouts for the future of Scouting. After reviewing the telecast of over and hour supporting their position and avoiding all negative Council, member and CO comments, they pushed forward their proposal. They do not those currently involved in Scouting now, they said so and are wiling to suffer significant losses in membership and CO’s to attract a more secular crowd with mre flexible values and morals. Time to take a stand and 1,400 delegates will decide for the rest of us. Join me on Sunday May 5 for:

        http://standwithscoutssunday.org/

      • “God hath showed me I should not call any man common or unclean.” Where is Luke today when we need him?

      • Are you seriously trying to equivocate Peter’s chastising of devout Jewish people who would not accept devout Gentiles with acceptance of immoral homosexual behavior? Stoop to no depths to defend your homosexual brothers I see. Perversion of Gospel will be dealt with severely by God you know.

      • I guess your are right Fred. God wants you to call my lesbian daughter, who He created, common and unclean. Sure glad we have fine Christians like you around to put us in our place. Interesting translation of “Love one another”

      • When these discussions first began, I really hoped that we could find common ground if we worked hard at it, if we talked and listened to each other. After all, we teach that kind of conflict resolution, along with the value of diversity and inclusion, at every single Wood Badge course. Finding common ground is part of who we are — arising as we did out of B-P’s dreams of a better world (for which see his reaction to the first World Jamboree).

        But I should have remembered from my years in seminary that there are faiths that are really not able to join in a truly nonsectarian fellowship. Depending on the faith, they may be able to cooperate within certain limits, but nonsectarian recognition of other faiths is contrary to central tenets of some faiths. It is painfully true that we will not be able to keep in our circle units that arise from these faiths, I think, if the policy changes.

      • You are correct Karen. I cannot sacrifice biblical principles as I see them after much study for nonsectarian secular cooperation purposes. I don’t think Wood Badge asked me to do that and I have served as participant and Troop Guide. Your soul and the souls of the young men under your charge should be handled as invaluable treasure. I disagree completely with your characterization of cooperation although I know you believe what you say is not harmful in any way.

      • Never said a word about your daughter, you did. I have no opinion about your daughter and you brought it up for effect. Sorry, not kind of a father to do so. Lesbianism is a form of homosexuality which I believe is the performance of an immoral sexual activity. The Bible states so also. I am sure you love you daughter and i would not bring her into this as a point of argument.

      • Consensual sexual relations between two committed adults of the same sex is now in the same league as murder. WOW! And no Fred I was not using the words of the scripture to defend my homosexual brothers, I was using God’s word to ask that we not call one of my children, and one of God’s children, common and unclean, immoral or perverted, choose your own hate word. God will judge morality. When man steps into this role it only causes hurt.

      • Excuse me Brian, but are you off your meds or something. I have not even mentioned murder. Immorality includes all types of Sin and yes it is immoral to mrder but I never said homosexuality rises to the level of murder. Try to stay focused on the matter at hand, whether open avowed homosexuals should be included in Scouting. I say not because I believe you cannot engage in homosexual behavior and be morally straight or clean.

        God will judge but it is my responsibility to challenge actions that portray sinful behavior as acceptable in an organization of high morals which I believe Scouting to be. You may not believe that ir true and that is fine. That is why we debate and vote.

        “If it feels good, do it” and “As long as it does not affect me, its fine” is for a purely secular society which is outside Scouting values, ideals and moral code.

        You are correct, God will judge, not I and I have never said I would, I expose error when I see it, the judgement is up to God. Surely you are not saying that when Jesus said “love one another” he meant excuse all sin before God without comment?

        I say plainly again, I have no comment in regards your daughter. I do not know her.

      • It appears that Brian was addressing two posts directed at him with a single reply, Another person equated homosexuality with murder.

        I must say, I find it peculiar that one of the people that accuses others of being unkind in this discussion uses statements like “you must be off your meds…” How very courteous indeed…

      • Ah geez. It was late when I replied to this one, I think… I do know the difference between principles and principals! 🙂

      • For what it’s worth, Deanna, I was offering a correction on a point of scripture, which may have been a slip of the memory on Trenton’s part. I happen to agree with the main point of his post – Jesus did not offer unconditional acceptance of every moral failing, he told those who had sinned not to continue in their behavior.

        If an adult’s or a youth’s self-desciption is that he is “gay,” it could mean that he feels a same-sex attraction, knows that it is wrong, tries to avoid the behavior associated with the attraction, and is trying to deal with it, as one deals with the poor eating habits associated with a genetic tendency to obesity or diabetes. More commonly, however, it means he defines himself by a continuing moral failing and sees nothing wrong with it, or feels it should be celebrated. If you are continuing in a moral failing in this way, you are not living according to the moral code of Scouting.

        Many of those arguing for inclusion of gay youths and adults have claimed that because some denominations have recently changed their doctrine to conform with a secular society’s new views, that this new interpretation is part of their religion, and so an acceptance and celebration of homosexual behavior must be accepted by the BSA as part of a “non-sectarian” stance. Homosexual behavior has been condemned by all major religions, in the western tradition and the eastern tradition. This is part of a basic view of morality that is shared by all traditional cultures, and so is non-sectarian. If a denomination were to discover a new interpretation of scripture that permitted, say, stealing or felonious murder (or to a lesser degree, say, resource destruction or cussing), we would not be required to accept that behavior within Scouting just because their religion now allows it in the name of “non-sectarianism.” The (very recent) additions to the beliefs of some religions that homosexual behavior is now to be accepted and celebrated is not part of the Moral Law, and while it may be part of their faith now, is not part of Scouting. The traditional basis of Moral Law, which is the basis of both western and eastern civilization, is, as seen by the men who founded Scouting.

        Moral Law is the knowledge of what is right and wrong with which we were all born, and which all established religions, each partly true in their own fashion with some perhaps having a greater knowledge of the Truth than others, include as part of their beliefs. Moral Law can be derived from logic and good reasoning, as well as the divine spark within us, and it will certainly lead us to a belief in moral behavior and a Supreme Being or Lawgiver. Each religion and denomination has beliefs (through divine revelation) which will involve the particulars and give what they consider the whole picture, needed for living a moral life. But the Moral Law informs the system of morality we use in Scouting, without involving sectarian teaching. You will not find a conflict with the broad basics of the Moral Law and the teachings of any established religion.

        If an individual culture contains an anomalously positive view of pederasty, for instance – such as the Spartans did – we can say that culture has gone off track and does not practice values that are consonant with the Moral Law.

        Moral Law tracks very nicely with happiness, by the way. When we follow Moral Law, even if it seems difficult, we are ultimately rewarded with a happier, more fulfilling life. If the behavior we are discussing is ultimately self-destructive (as I’ll discuss below), then it reinforces the belief that the behavior conflicts with Moral Law. Homosexuality conflicts with Moral Law.

        I don’t think the Local Option (which appears to be dead in the water) was a viable solution, as it left the door open to lawsuits against traditional COs and was widely unpopular with the base membership.

        I don’t think an Open Admission policy of admitting “avowed” (which I interpret as meaning “I’m proud of what I do and I’m not going to change”) homosexual or bisexual boys and adults is acceptable from a moral law standpoint or from a youth safety standpoint, based on historical experience – the disastrous Catholic experiment of allowing those with a same-sex attraction into the priesthood (now ended by Pope Benedict) if they promised to remain celibate was the chief cause of the sexual abuse scandal, which consisted of almost entirely homosexual abuse and involved victims that were almost entirely within the age range of Boy Scouting. (And it would be hard to argue that this was somehow caused by the horrific effects of “celibacy” in the priesthood – most people who are celibate, through their own choice or not, do not become pederasts, and many pederasts were never celibate for long periods before offending.)

        The rate of abuse in the Catholic Church has dropped to almost nothing as the result of the changes in seminary admissions, youth safety procedures (which parallels the BSA), and the administrative changes in how abuse complaints are handled (again, thanks to Pope Benedict, who demanded accountability from the Bishops, began laicizing the few priests who were abusers, and streamlined the reporting process). The rate of sexual abuse in other Christian and Jewish denominations, however, has continued to skyrocket way above the current or past Catholic allegations, which doesn’t bode well for those Protestant denominations which are now gleefully ordaining gay priests and bishops, or for the BSA, who is being pressured to adopt similar policies. Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of history are condemned to repeat the mistakes of history. The historical lessons for this in any program with boys and adults in a mentoring relationship should be obvious.

        (Arguments that homosexuals are not “pedophiles” are semantically meaningless, as we are not really talking about pedophilia here (which involves younger children), we are talking about pederasty – the attraction of some (not all) homosexuals for teenage youths. Many homosexuals, and many heterosexuals, find teenagers attractive and seek to have sex with them without being considered “pedophiles.” They are just immoral ADULTS who would have sex with a teenager, in violation of moral, cultural, and legal standards. We seek to prevent this behavior by denying adults of any sexual orientation access to youths they would victimize, especially if the circumstances (such as isolation or mentorship) favor isolation. The particular outdoor nature of scouting represents a special danger of victimization due to isolation, so I understand why you would not want adult males camping with a group of teenage Girl Scouts camping overnight in the wilds. LGBT activists should extend the same courtesy to us and understand why it is not prudent to include those with an attraction to the male sex into a group of teenage Boy Scouts camping overnight in the wilds.)

        I don’t think the new proposal is the best solution, as it seems to be hypocritical – “we’ll accept you as a youth with a same-sex attraction, but not an adult.” I’m still on the fence on this, to be honest, but don’t think it is the best option for the following reasons:

        On one hand, it would seem that the new policy would be letting the camel get its nose under the tent – if you let that happen, the entire camel will be in your tent very quickly. The ability to defend a legal challenge to admit gay leaders would become very difficult if the policy is changed (which may be the goal of some activists, who initially opposed this idea but are now more supportive as they see it as a route to eventual normalization of homosexuality within the Boy Scouts.)

        More importantly, it still creates youth safety issues, and the issues of tenting, showers and other issues are legitimate concerns. Most child sexual abuse is at the hand of another minor. This is a legitimate concern for the parents who entrust their boys with the adult leaders. The LGBT activists who are pushing the troops to admit gay scouts and leaders will NOT be there to support you, legally or otherwise, when the first incident of abuse happens with a gay scout or scouter under your watch. It would also appear to remove a religious CO’s ability to make its own decisions about what kind of moral behavior is acceptable within a troop, in violation of their right to religious freedom – it is really, the Anti-Local Option. In practice, it will also lead to changes in our core policies of leadership. Decisions that are properly overseen by the SPL and PLs – such as who pairs up with whom in tents, on projects, in accompanying another scout to the latrine or showers – will now become Youth Safety Issues, and which should properly be made by an adult. This will cause a change in the boy-led, patrol-based method for the worse, and could have even more tragic consequence if an immature youth leader makes a mistake in judgment.

        The (quite extensive) research from the Center for Disease Control (CDC) shows that the rate of self-destructive and risk-seeking behavior is far, far higher among LGBT youths than among heterosexual youths in nearly every category. That’s a concern for those troops that would admit LGBT youths, who may represent a threat to the safety of heterosexual kids in ways other than sexual abuse. LGBT activists have argued that such risky behavior is only the result of societal disapproval and bullying, but many or most of the behaviors would not seem to result from such disapproval, and many of the behaviors would seem to derive from the nature of homosexual culture itself – the very high comparative rate of suicide and suicide attempts among LGBT individuals remain the same (or higher) in cultures that are now very gay-tolerant (such as the Netherlands), and the most common cited reason for LGBT suicide attempts in research studies was being dropped by a sexual partner. The latter can’t really be caused by societal disapproval as much as a highly promiscuous sexual culture.

        We can’t completely change society, but we can discourage (or at the very least, not encourage the acceptance) of a lifestyle that has a higher rate of depression, suicide, substance abuse, illness, etc., and should not encourage or condone a lifestyle identification that is physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually dangerous out of a misguided sense of “compassion.” One should feel compassion for someone struggling with a problem (such as alcoholism), but one should not encourage the behavior associated with the problem. One should also consider how such self-destructive behavior will inevitably impact on the safety and happiness of those around them.

        On the other hand…

        I’m still not certain if completely banning any boy who may be struggling with his sexual identification is what we want to do. Despite what LGBT activists tell you – that a boy’s early self-identification as “gay” (or “coming out”) is fixed, immutable, and no one should ever try to change it – the best research available (which had a huge survey population) actually shows that from age 16 to 17, and from age 17 to 25, youthful identification as “gay” or “bisexual” is discarded more often than not as part of the maturation process, while heterosexual identification tends to remain largely fixed. This is good news, I think. Boys do and say some stupid things, and adopt attitudes and beliefs that are (largely thankfully) later discarded. A process of adult mentorship and positive role-modelling helps kids to establish a healthy identity. How this particular research impacts on the issue is hard to say, but it may argue for allowing kids in to Scouting who may be unsure of their sexual orientation, while not acknowledging it as a fixed decision or encouraging them to do so. From this point of view, the current option (probably unfairly known as “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” with a healthy dose of Youth Safety Procedures) remains the best option.

      • I was just thanking you for the correction.

        Could you post a link to your claim that:
        “The rate of sexual abuse in other Christian and Jewish denominations, however, has continued to skyrocket way above the current or past Catholic allegations, which doesn’t bode well for those Protestant denominations which are now gleefully ordaining gay priests and bishops, or for the BSA, who is being pressured to adopt similar policies.”

        I can’t find anything on that topic but I did find this:

        http://www.talk2action.org/story/2013/4/13/203140/133

        Which said:
        “By way of contrast, let’s also consider that the liberal mainline Protestant denominations — the ones that respect the moral capacity of women to determine their reproductive life, and many of which not only welcome LGTB people, who are then treated with dignity and equality, but may serve in leadership roles — do not turn a blind eye to the problems, but also seek to prevent and address child sex abuse by clergy and others.

        These include, among others, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Presbyterian Church, USA, United Church of Christ (PDF), The Episcopal Church, and the United Methodist Church as well as the Unitarian Universalist Association. What’s more, the progressive Religious Institute has resources for religious organizations considering developing policies and programs in this area, and consults with those who are looking to improve their policies and performance.”

        and said this:
        “Robert Parnham of the Baptist Center for Ethics sees the matter clearly

        Catholic and Baptist leaders have more similarities than differences on the child-abuse front. Both have harmed church members and the Christian witness by not swiftly addressing predatory clergy and designing reliable protective systems.”

        This is not an old story but an new one. Just look at the date 4/13/13. I like numbers so please post a link to your claim.

      • This article discusses how the rate of molestation is relatively equal among all denominations as reported by several insurance providers.

        http://blogs.denverpost.com/hark/2010/05/25/scandal-creates-contempt-for-catholic-clergy/39/

        ““It would be incorrect to call it a Catholic problem,” said Church Mutual’s risk control manager, Rick Schaber. “We do not see one denomination above another. It’s equal. It’s also equal among large metropolitan churches and small rural churches.”

        Iowa-based Guide One Center for Risk Management, which insures more than 40,000 congregations, also said Catholic churches are not considered a greater risk or charged higher premiums.

        “Our claims experience shows this happens evenly across denominations,” said spokeswoman Melanie Stonewall.”

      • Deanna,

        You are very welcome for the correction.

        The stats are based on the John Jay study on past allegations of abuse in the Catholic Church, http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/The-Nature-and-Scope-of-Sexual-Abuse-of-Minors-by-Catholic-Priests-and-Deacons-in-the-United-States-1950-2002.pdf. This report was released in 2004, but provides an historical over view of the reports from 1950 – 2002.

        The current stats on allegations of abuse within the Church are from the annual audit, http://usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/2011-annual-report.pdf (2012 has not been published yet, I think). Even a single abuse allegation is unacceptable in any denomination, but the cases that we are continuing to see are almost entirely from decades before. Current allegations (not proven, but considered by law enforcement as worthy of investigation) for the entire year of 2010, was eight. For 2011, the number went down to seven. (If there are roughly 41,406 Catholic priests in the United States, seven credibly accused priests would represent .000169 (or 0.0169%) of all U.S. priests.) Considering that the Catholic Church remains the single largest Christian denomination in America, it’s not a good number (a good number would be 0), but it tracks better than most professions and many denominations, not because Catholic seminaries attract holier people than other seminaries, but because the restriction of those with a same-sex attraction, changes in how the cases are handled, and the laicization of offenders have mostly worked.

        Of the figures cited above, it is also important to notice that

        • 45% of all priests who were accused for 2011 were already deceased (this is a record high figure);
        • 75% of all priests who were accused for 2011 are either deceased, already removed from ministry, already laicized, or missing;
        • over 90% of all abuse accusations last year allege incidents from at least two decades ago (the most common time period was from almost 40 years ago: 1975-1979).

        That 1975-1979 period is crucial in terms of what was going on in American society, in American views of sexuality (including a much more liberal view of sexuality that was included in seminaries at the time), and other issues going on within the Catholic Church. The fact that this was at the tail end of the Vietnam military draft, and that many gay men understandably did not want to join the military when homosexuality was a crime under the UCMJ, may have also played a factor in the increased numbers of those with an SSA seeking a religious deferment.

        A persistent danger we have to face is that high minded ideals in any group, religious or secular, are no protection against the wolf in the fold. Those who desire to have sex with minors, will go where the minors are. That is true of all religious denominations, that is true of youth groups, and that is true of secular professions that involve children. That is why we have youth safety procedures, and why we restrict access to vulnerable populations. This is not the only reason for the current policy, but it is a reasonable one.

        The rate of sexual abuse of minors within the educational system remains high (apparently far higher than within churches), as the Department of Education has shown: http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf
        And as some denominations have protected the abusers within their ranks, so have the teachers’ unions closed ranks to protect abusers within their numbers: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443437504577547313612049308.html

        The rate of sexual abuse of children within the foster care system, within the medical system, by correction system staff, within the entertainment industry, all would appear to be higher than within religious organizations. All these are secular organizations that (by and large) profess liberal values concerning LGBT goals, yet their rate of abuse remains high.

        You commented that “By way of contrast, let’s also consider that the liberal mainline Protestant denominations — the ones that respect the moral capacity of women to determine their reproductive life, and many of which not only welcome LGTB people, who are then treated with dignity and equality, but may serve in leadership roles — do not turn a blind eye to the problems, but also seek to prevent and address child sex abuse by clergy and others. These include, among others, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Presbyterian Church, USA, United Church of Christ (PDF), The Episcopal Church, and the United Methodist Church as well as the Unitarian Universalist Association. What’s more, the progressive Religious Institute has resources for religious organizations considering developing policies and programs in this area, and consults with those who are looking to improve their policies and performance.”

        No one is claiming that people of good will within those denominations are not looking at ways to curb abuse. There are current case of abuse in all those denominations. The fact that they have to adopt such policies indicates that this is a problem for them.

        Protestant denominations have seen a spike in abuse cases, per insurance stats, and based on the reported number of cases that are in the media. A daily review of your paper for abuse arrests, if you live in a fairly large-sized town, will demonstrate that this continues to be a problem, even as the Catholic allegations have dwindled. These stats are not broken down by heterosexual or homosexual abuse (both are equally evil), but given the increased number of victims created by homosexual vs heterosexual abusers, we can certainly draw some conclusions: http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/06/18/80877.htm.

        As the 2007 article notes, this could be the tip of the iceberg, as many smaller denominations and non-denominational Christian churches do not have the centralized record-keeping system of the Catholics. The rate of reported child sexual abuse just for those Protestant denominations that are insured by the big 3 insurance firms averages about 260 a year, as of 2007. YSP may have dropped that somewhat, but there is no indication that it has. All the denominations you name are dealing with abuse allegations against their clergy. Google the name of the denomination and “sexual abuse” and see what you find.

        This has nothing to do with whether one denomination is more “correct” or “holier” than the other – every denomination has sinners and saints within in, that’s why we need religion – but it has everything to do with how we screen those who have access to children, the level of access and isolation they have with those children, and the YP policies that are a part of that.

        If an increase in the number of those men with a same-sex attraction led to greater rates of abuse within one denomination, why do you think it will not lead to a greater rate of abuse in other denominations that adopt a similar policy, Deanna? Because the group you favor is more “saintly” or is okay with abortion or something?

        Whether you agree with the Catholics’ policies on “reproductive freedom” or anything else with which you are concerned, you should at least pay attention to the lessons to be learned from their experience. It’s better to learn from other’s mistakes than your own.

        An additional problem that churches which adopt a gay-inclusive policy will face is that many members will vote with their feet. Outside of extremely liberal communities (and even within them), many long-time church members do not agree with the new policy and will leave, as in this church: http://www.twincities.com/stpaul/ci_20975779/pastor-whose-congregation-dwindled-after-supporting-gay-marriage. Adoption of new doctrines that no longer see homosexual acts as sinful have led to schisms within many mainline Protestant denominations. Some Episcopalian priests (81) and congregations (about 1500 people) have left their traditional denominations and converted to Catholicism (while retaining their traditional liturgical rights) under the Anglican Ordinariate of the Catholic Church, largely in protest over the ordination of gay priests and bishops. These are numbers that any denomination cannot afford to lose in these times of declining church attendance and ordination. The Evangelical Lutheran Church, the Presbyterian Church (USA), the United Church of Christ, have all fractured over the ordination of openly gay clergy. http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/neighborhoods-city/schism-in-lutheran-church-raises-scriptural-financial-concerns-299984/

        These schisms are doctrinal issues that are very important to the people involved but need not concern us here, except to note that all of these people presumably cared a great deal about their long-term religious faiths, yet were willing to leave it and go to another denomination, synod, or confession, largely because LGBT issues. In many cases, these splits caused hurt feelings, loss of long-term friendships, destruction of standing traditions, significant funding and contribution losses, and deep distress to all involved. _Do you think people with a traditional outlook on morality would be more likely to remain in the Boy Scouts, than they were for their actual RELIGION, if they disagree on such a fundamental issue, Deanna?_

        This does not bode well for the survival of the BSA. Based on the analogous experiences we see in American religious denominations in changes of doctrine to accommodate LGBT agendas. Many will leave, many will transfer to other youth safety programs if this issue is not handled well.

      • AZ It is fruitless to bring in what Jesus Christ did or did not do on
        homosexuality. Religion will always be a problem for them like any other sin it is either true or it is not true. The bible cannot be proven by man itself only through the holy spirit will God and his Prophets reveal it truths to man. So religion is not going to be the issue in the new proposal by the National Board as it shouldn’t be. It is time to move on and stop using religion as it will not stop and solve the issue. We have been all over the map with our comments and it is time to stay with the issue on what is best for the BSA and how to keep it intact for the future. There will be some who will drop out of Scouting and there will be some who will stop funding the BSA the whole thing is a result of trying to change a policy that is not necessary if we have to ignore homosexuality in private corners as we have done for many years so be it. I have not experianced homosexuality personally in Scouting because it was not allowed and the BSA have spent millions and millions defending in Courts the exclusion of homosexuals in Scouting. It looks like the BSA wants to come out of the closet and declare to the members of the BSA forget about what you have believed in all your years in Scouting those timeless values are no longer the future of the BSA . I appologize for trying to defend my religous beliefs over the issue of what the BSA National Board has to face in Scouting. Lets stay the course and not use religion for or against the vote in May. Sincerely,
        Trenton Spears

      • “I have not experianced homosexuality personally in Scouting because it was not allowed ”

        You have not experience homosexuality in Scouting because nobody, anywhere, even talked about homosexuality openly until about the late-1980s. And when people did start talking about it, BSA immediately went into reactionary mode and starting kicking out gays, where no such BSA-wide ban had ever existed before.

        Then, when BSA got taken to the court over this arbitrary ban, BSA invented a fiction that BSA teaches about homosexuality to scouts, in order to legally justify its ban to the court.

        Now, BSA must unravel this mess it has created for itself. And I agree that part of this unraveling involves leaving religion out of it.

        But I don’t agree with the fiction that BSA has never changed its views about homosexuality. The fact is, BSA, as a national organization, never had any view about homosexuality until the late 80’s. Sure, they never needed one until then, and they never had one.

        Then, sometime around 1991, BSA, for the first time, publicly stated a nation-wide ban on all gays.

        I agree that BSA must return to its timeless values, the values it has held since BSA’s founding. But those values say nothing about homosexuality. They didn’t in 1910, and they never did until 1991.

        BSA must return to its timeless values of holding no view about religious doctrine, and no view about sexuality. BSA can’t move forward until it returns to the timeless values on which it was founded.

      • cwgmpls. You are hard to figure out where you stand . You are all over the place and seem to have a variety of values of which are hard to understand. The law suits against the BSA that the BSA won in Court in the 1980’s gave them the right to set their own policy excluding Homosexuals therefore the BSA does have a policy and values against homosexuals and timeless values are proof of their set values there is know doubt about it there is no middle ground on values If after 103 years and your term as a Scout leader you do not know what the values mean time to be re-trained . The problem with homosexuals then is the same as today their sexual choices are not consistant with the values that have been the standard since 1903. If you read todays paper it has another story of a law suit against the BSA because of sexual abuse years ago. The BSA covered up the allegations and thus another Scout Leader got away from prosecution for molesting boy Scouts. Sorry your comments lean towards your approval of homosexuals in scouting and like I stated earlier all over the place. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • “The law suits against the BSA that the BSA won in Court in the 1980′s gave them the right to set their own policy excluding Homosexuals therefore the BSA does have a policy and values against homosexuals and timeless values are proof of their set values”

        The law suits against the BSA that the BSA won in Court in the 1980’s were appealed to the Supreme Court. The basis for the Supreme Court decision in favor of BSA were based on statements made by BSA between 1991 and 2000.

        The BSA stated policy and values against homosexuals originated around 1991, not 1903. Prior to about 1991, BSA had no written policy excluding homosexuals from membership, and had no written policy stating that homosexuality was contrary to BSA values.

      • Or perhaps you are referring to the Curran case, which originated in 1981. BSA eventually prevailed in that case, in California Supreme Court, because the Court determined that BSA did not match the definition of a “business establishment”, so California nondiscrimination laws did not apply to BSA in that case. The BSA victory in that case, which was finally resolved in 1998, was not based on BSA’s stated values, but on the fact that BSA was eventually ruled to be outside of that specific law.

    • Trenton,
      I respect your point of view. As Christ never really came out against pork, I’m even guessing you may share my view on the virtues of a good slab of bacon cooked in a cast iron skillet over the fire on s Sunday morning in the woods. I do have to disagree on the point that Christ, who never in the bible condemned homosexuality, would look at my ‘adopted’ daughter as a sinner. When our good friend Sue lost her 11 year fight with breast cancer, her 2 daughters joined our family. She told my wife when her youngest was 8 years old that she was pretty sure her youngest was gay. God made her that way, and God’s work is good. She has grown to be a lovely, principled, and moral young woman. I have several friends who are gay or lesbian. Several of our children’s friends are gay and have spent many hours in our home. To a one they are all fine people who follow all of Gods principles that you do to the best of their ability except the one in question here. Would I have any problem with any of them being my grandchild’s scout leader? No! I don’t know why so many people equate homosexuality with pedophilia. They are two entirely different things. How is this different than making the leap that since some heterosexual men rape women, heterosexuals are rapist and should be excluded from scouting. Neither of these extreme jumps is true. Forcing equality is the American way. We need only to look at the Supreme Court ruling in Brown vs the Board of Education that desegregated schools in Mississippi. I believe a key principle in this ruling was that separate will never be equal. I respect your right to interpret the bible’s view on homosexuality as a sin. All I ask is that you not sit in judgement of those who’s religious beliefs on this matter are different from your own. I agree that known pedophiles have no place in scouting. We have nothing to fear from homosexuals in scouting, just as letting blacks into previously segregated troops did not cause the end of scouting. Christ said judge not and love one another, not love just the folks who are like us. I certainly cannot argue with His word

      • Before AZMike can fact check me.. it was the Board of Education of Topeka Kansas. There were many states that were more forceful in the opposition to desegregation that Mississippi. My apologies for the inaccuracy, but the principle that separate educational facilities are inherently unequal, was the unanimous 9-0 opinion of the court

      • Brian,
        🙂 Your children are lucky to have such a great dad as you.

  125. When, during your troop’s activities, do you teach the Bible to your Scouts? I went through Scouts in the mid and late 70’s, with a troop chartered by a public school. About 10% of my troop was Jewish, about 20% Protestant that went to church regularly and studied the Bible a bit, and about 70% boys who, if you asked them, would tell you they were Christian but had never been to church other than for a wedding or funeral, and wouldn’t know 1 Kings from 1 Corinthians.

    I earned my Eagle rank with this troop, and we never talked about the Bible in Scouts. Ever.

    Is this uncommon? Hearing all the Bible debate going on hear, it seams like BSA is a Christian Theological Seminary or something. But that was not my experience of Scouting.

    Do you guys actually teach the Bible in your Scout Troop? If so, in what way, and using what activities?

    Based on my experience, it surprises me to see all of this Bible debate going on here. I never experienced this in any of the Scout activities I have been involved in, in the past.

    • Our Troop is sponsored by a Church and that is on our flag. In our City, all of the early troops except one were sponsored by a Church and the the Adult leaders of that Troop many years ago asked a Church to sponsor their Charter so every Troop in town is now sponsored by a Church. At all district and council events, the Bible is used unless it is the non-denominational service that BSA provides but the prayer is always in the name of Jesus Christ.

      Our Chaplain Aide has always used the Bible on Sunday morning for his worship service. If we are at the moment without a Chaplain Aide, I or another Asst. Scoutmaster will assist a Scout or he will prepare a service on his own from the Bible. We are all Christian or Mormon. There are many brochures from National BSA promoting how a Church can incorporate Scouting as a ministry. We don’t hide the fact that we are a Church and we pray at the end of every meeting. We had a boy with a Muslim father and Christian mother but neither were regular attenders or practitioners of their faith. The Scoutmaster at the time spoke with them when the Scout joined and they gave the option to their son as to whether he attended service for not and we did not make it mandatory for him. We would accommodate any child but would allow each religion to have a common service just as it is as Jamboree.

      • > We would accommodate any child but would allow each
        > religion to have a common service just as it is as Jamboree.

        At the Jamboree, each religion held a separate service on Sunday morning (perhaps there were some on Friday or Saturday, but I wasn’t aware of them).

        Do you mean a “common” service, like a Scout’s Own (non-denominational/non-sectarian), or that you would allow each youth to hold their own separate service?

        What I’m really asking is whether you deal with religious plurality by keeping the group together and holding a Scout’s Own, or send each religion on their way separately to hold a service tailored to their beliefs.

      • No, at Jamboree, different Scouts went to Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Christian and Mormon services.

        We do not do Scouts own in our Troop as we are all Christian, so we do a Christian service.

    • Our unit does not have any bible instruction. Our religious activities are pretty much limited to having an active Chaplain’s Aide (usually a Scout who is quite religious) who says grace at meals, having a Scout’s Own service at Camporees (usually pretty lightly attended), and doing service projects for our Chartered Org (a Congregational Church). We have had some youth who are very devout, some who attend church occasionally, and some who are unchurched.

    • Neither the Troop that my boys are in or the Pack that they came from and where I am still a leader ever discuss the Bible. They do talk with the parents concerning the Religious Emblem and that if they are interested where they can purchase the books and find a counselor.

      Religious instruction is to be performed by the family not the Scout leaders.

      • To the List as large: Just to clarify so that my words are not distorted or misunderstood, in my Troop, adults leaders do not lead the religious service. A Chaplain Aide leads the religious service. If a Scout volunteers in the absence of a Chaplains Aide and asks for help, we will help him so he is prepared. The Chaplain’s Aide also leaders prayers at the end of the meeting and offers grace at meals. Adult leaders do not perform this religious function. As a Christian, I wouldf ail in my Duty to God to refuse help to a young Christian who has asked me to help him. If a Scoutmaster is doing his job and cares for his Troop and their families, he has already had discussions with them on religious matters so as not to prevent any Scout from freely expressing their religion as is guaranteed in the Constitution.of these United States.

    • Thank you for the various replies. Yes, BSA was designed, from its beginning, so that a Church can incorporate Scouting as a part of its ministry, if it wants to.

      That is the beauty of Scouting. And we can see how well it works by seeing the wide variety of ways that the Bible is used in Scouting, from never at all, to at every meeting, depending on the troop.

      I hope we all keep this wide variety of the ways that specific religious doctrine is integrated into Scouting in mind as we debate the issue of homosexuality.

      None of us want a specific religious doctrine forced onto our troop from BSA, that contradicts the religious teachings of our troop. I think we can all agree on that.

      • You are absolutely correct. I would only add one comment. I would hope that none of us would allow the absence of religion to be enforced on our Troop by BSA as is being done in many other areas of Society and culture.

      • Actually, BSA rarely uses the word “religion”. The phrase it uses is “duty to God”. While individual units are free to teach religion if they want to, BSA requires no specific religion instruction at the national level. BSA states that “the home and the organization with which the member is connected” shall define a Scout’s religious life.

        BSA allows the absence of religion in Scouting. It has from its founding. It does not allow the absence of “duty to God”, however.

      • See, now this is the kind of thing that turn threads negative. We had a very reasonable conversation about the Bible in Scouting which would by definition make i t about religion. You made a very good point and closed. I added one comment indicating that I hoped no one would be in favor of BSA ENFORCING (that’s what I wrote, look it up)

        Then cwgnpls said: “BSA allows the absence of religion in Scouting. It has from its founding. It does not allow the absence of “duty to God”, however.” Read enforce above. You just had to find some way to put it into a negative connotation. How can anyone have a conversation like that.

      • No ill will was intended. BSA has allowed the absence of religion in Scouting, from the beginning. Many troops make no reference to religion, other than to instruct a Scout to follow the religious teachings of his family, and respect the religious beliefs of others. That is it. That is the point I was trying to make.

        BSA does not force, or enforce, the absence of religion in Scouting. BSA allows for religion in Scouting, if a CO chooses to provide it. But BSA also allows for the absence of religion in Scouting, as long as “duty to God” is picked up at home.

        I don’t think we disagree. Sorry if I sounded like I was arguing.

  126. I’m a senior in high school. I am an Eagle with two Silver Palms, an Honor Medal, and a Hornaday Award. I’m an assistant Scoutmaster. And I’m gay. Does that last item make me any less of a person?

    • You will be in my prayers! As a matter of fact, you can join Venturing and be classified as a “Yoot” until you reach the age of 21. God help us all!

    • “I’m gay. Does that last item make me any less of a person?”

      According to current BSA policy, as well as the proposed revision, yes. It is BSA policy that anyone in a homosexual relationship is not capable of fulfilling the Scout Oath, and is not an appropriate role model for other Scouts.

      I’m still trying to figure out why BSA needs to have a nation-wide message about sexuality. I miss the good old days when sex was taught at home or in the church. I guess I’m old-fashioned.

    • You asked if your less of a person JRASM? Why? If during the time you were a scout you knew you were a homosexual and you knew being a homosexual while being a scout was wrongful and in violation of the BSA membership policy then what does that say for your character? If during the time you were a scout you weren’t sure that you were a homosexual and you had mixed feelings about the other boys in the troop and in your social network of friends but never acted on those feelings because you weren’t sure about how you felt about your sexual orientation then I’d say you weren’t wrongful and truly earned your Eagle Rank; fulfilled the memership requirements of the BSA. If you lied on your membership application every year just so you could earn your Eagle Rank then how would you gauge that character as an adult now? And now as an adult do you continue to lie on your BSA application every year when rechartering? You should choose to “respect” the membership policy of the BSA and resign as an adult leader if you are a homosexual; its the rightful thing to do. Are you a lesser person for resigning; I’d have respect for your decision to do the rightful thing and resign. If you continue to renew your membership each year knowing your violating the BSA membership policy then how does that reflect on your character as an adult? I’d think less of you for not respecting the BSA membership policy; you would be wrongful to violate it.

      Do you think people that lie are viewed as lesser people than people who strive to be honest? What would you think of someone who joined an organization or filled out a job application or resume and lied on the application or resume in order to gain membership or get a job? Knowing the BSA Oath’s statement of “morally straight” also means that you are not a homosexual, and you openly admit you are, then how would you view someone that stood up reciting an oath they knowingly openly violate with every act of homosexual behavior they engage in?

      If you are a homosexual then honestly tell me if you have ever been attracted to another scout or another scout leader? If the truth of your heart says yes then do you honestly think you belong in the BSA when you know that desire is wrongful to the scout or scout leader you felt that way abou; they trusted you were not homosexual because you took an oath saying you weren’t.

      If you are and have been a homosexual even in your days of scouting then I’d find it hard to believe that you’ve never been attracted to another scout or a scout leader. Do you think that sexual attraction belongs in scouting? Do you think that homosexual attraction should be associated with a scout with the Eagle Rank; a leader? Do you think that homosexual Eagle Rank scout should be in charge of other scouts? Do you think a parent should leave their child under your supervision without your having told them that you are a homosexual boy scout and that their 10 year old son will be under your direct supervision? Is that parent wrongful for saying no, you will not be my son’s direct supervisor. And would you blame them or think of them as lesser human beings, parents, for being concerned for their son’s welfare and safety; for being concientiious parents? What should we parents think of you for having lied on your scout application today and for all the years in the past? Are you a lesser person for having lied and deceived the BSA, all your leaders and all the parents whose children were left under your care without their knowledge of your homosexual desires; what do you think of yourself?

      • “you knew being a homosexual while being a scout was wrongful and in violation of the BSA membership policy”

        For two full years, from 2010 to 2012, BSA had no publicly accessible policy baring gays from membership. If a Scout was gay during that time, and tried to learn about BSA policy regarding gays, they would not find anything during that time that would disqualify them from membership.

        You can’t accuse someone of breaking the rules if BSA doesn’t tell anyone what the rules are.

      • cw, that is simply not true; a lie. We have always known homosexuals are not permited to join the BSA. I’ve been in the BSA since 1969 and I have always known homosexuals are not permited in the BSA. You’ve obviously been asking the wrong people what the rules are.

      • BSA has official websites that they use to publicize BSA policies. Most notably, bsalegal.org and scouting.org.

        BSA’s policies toward gays has shifted through the years. One of the best-know BSA policy statements regarding gay membership was published in 2004. That statement quietly disappeared from view in February, 2010, as was not available anywhere after that date.

        You can look at this snapshot of bsalegal.org from Feb 6, 2010 http://web.archive.org/web/20100206191637/http://www.bsalegal.org/morally-straight-cases-225.asp, notice the “Policies” that disqualify gays from membership toward the top of the page, then click the blue right arrow and watch the policies disappear sometime before Feb 13, 2010.

        From Feb 13, 2010, those policies were not published anywhere, and were not publicly viewable by anyone, until re-written policies suddenly re-appeared on June 7, 2012 here http://www.bsalegal.org/news-releases.asp.

        If official BSA sources stop publishing a policy, who would you suggest that we ask what BSA’s rules are?

      • If official BSA sources stop publishing a policy, who would you suggest that we ask what BSA’s rules are?

      • I’m simply not as stupid as you need me to be to believe your manipulation of the truths and deceitful twisting of words and their meanings. You are sincerely clueless about what the BSA is and what the BSA is all about. I don’t expect you to understand because you choose to not even try to understand. If you understood you wouldn’t even be on here trying to terrorize the majority of BSA members to be under your control as you continue to try to destroy the BSA to serve your own selfish desires for attempting to normalize what 99+ % of the people see as abnormal sexual attraction and abnormal sexual behavior; homosexual behavior isn’t normal. You should stop trying to hijack and steal an organization that doesn’t belong to you for their reasons they freely choose to have. Ultimately yours is a lost cause because you will never see a BSA as it is today blended with a membership policy you desire to fulfill your selfish desires. If the policy changes the BSA will never be the same all the way up until the day it crumbles into nothingness… You’ll never have it your way; do you really think you will?

      • Thank you Wallace. Keep up the faith. The battle we fight is as old as time itself.

    • Congratulations on your achievements and thank you for your leadership. Lets pray its not voted away.

    • JRASM. An Eagle scout is not just a rank, but it is part of who you are. The honorable thing to do would be to bow out. A scout is loyal.

    • No, JRASM, it does not make you less of a person. Congratulations on your Eagle and your other awards. And thank you for your service.

    • JRASM, Your sound like the kind of young man that we hope everyone that comes thru the program will become. Please ignore the few hateful messages of some on this blog. They use their Bible to justify putting you down out of ignorance that tells them other beliefs besides their own are not valid. You know better. Scouting asks us all to have a duty to God, the God that we know, understand and revere, as taught to us by our families. This is not always the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition, as taught by a specific church. Not all Catholics believe that use of contraceptives is a sin, despite the teachings of their church. If a young man, or a scouter’s faith tells him and he truly believes that his God does not consider homosexuality a sin, then he has not disobeyed his duty to God, and should not be excluded from this organization. It is not for those of other faith traditions to judge yours. I hope you continue in scouting to serve as a positive role model for the youth in your troop.

      • Brian, you have just demonstrated what is wrong in our culture. You believe that its OK to join a group based on certain beliefs even if you do not share those beliefs. That, by very definition, is not trustworthy. I suppose it is OK not to believe in honesty as well.

        You are an impostor my dear sir. A Christian that does not believe in the authority of the Church is a protestant. I have no problem with my protestant brothers and sisters in Christ. I understand their views which make them protestant; I hope some day will be together… maybe only when Jesus returns.

        HOWEVER, you claim to be Catholic or have knowledge of such things and try to use others unfaithful behavior to lead a young man away from God. May God have mercy on your soul.

        Matthew 18:6
        “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.”

      • Mark, I wrote what I believe; how is that not honest?
        If one must believe in every teaching of policy of a church, you will find very few people who meet your definition of a Catholic. I did not say I was a Catholic, but I do consider myself Catholic, being a registered member, baptized and confirmed, and regularly attending both Mass and small group meetings where we explore our faith. You may be one of the rare Catholics who believes that the church is never wrong, and I can respect that belief. My friends at church often think I bring too much science and thinking into my religion, but as I tell them, that is how God made me. The science tells me that sexual preference is not a moral choice, but a fact of how we are made (yes not an incontrovertable fact, but the brain that God gave me allows me to look at the evidence and side with those who have the most evidence). My belief in God tells me that he made us. When I put 1+1 together, JRASM, a child of God, earned scoutings highest rank, and continues on after that to distinguish himself in this organization. He did that with his God given talents. I don’t want to lead him away from God, nor should we chase him away with our condemnation, even though it appears that you think he and I should be drowned in the depths of the sea. He is not dangerous because he is gay; I am not dangerous because I accept him as God made him. Scouting was not a homophobic organization until the 1990’s. With God’s grace, we may again learn not to use what you clearly see as a “sin” (seemingly the only sin that needs its own special exclusionary policy) to brand boys and men unworthy of this fine program. God bless you and God bless the BSA. He will get us through this.

      • Brian,
        As an engineer, I am intrigued by the question “how does the science work?” “Someone is born gay” implies that homosexuality is genetic.

        OK. Children are a mix of characteristics from their mother and father. Right? Since, homosexuals cannot proCreate, can you please tell me how a “gay” characteristic can be passed on such that a child is born “gay”?

        At very least we must assume that of the LGBT, that lesbians and gays which are exclusive cannot exist (naturally). Bisexuals may be able to pass on their genes and transgenders as well may be able to do so prior to their “change”, provided that they proCreate with a member of the opposite sex at some time.

        I think that (as most credible scientists agree) that behavior is an inextricable mix of experience and genetics. When families are broken and people are estranged from community, maybe they are not formed properly.

        In terms of faith formation, Brian I don’t believe you are properly formed in the Christian faith. I suggest you go through RCIA in your parish. I have gone through it twice already, and I learn something new every class….like the key to the spiritual life.

        In any case, Jesus is Lord. We orient ourselves according to Him alone. This is the call of the Gospel. Romans 1:22

  127. “… the BSA does not proactively inquire about sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members …”

    At no point during the application process or the Eagle Board of Review process is anyone asked if they are LGBT. There’s no need to lie, because the BSA does not ask and doesn’t want to know.

    Here’s an irony for you. If you or anyone else are asking youth or leaders if they are Gay, it is you – not them – that are violating the BSA’s rules.

  128. Since neither those who want to include gays in Scouting, nor those who want to keep gays out of Scouting, like the newest proposal, does anyone have any idea who wrote this preposterous “compromise”?

    One thing this new proposal does do, is to finally gets the pro-gay and anti-gay folks something we can agree on. We can all agree we don’t like the latest proposal!

    Strange as the new proposal reads, there is a certain logic behind it. We would know more about this logic if we knew who originally wrote the proposed policy. But I doubt we will ever know.

    • Todd, also, you must know that we discriminate between (not against) girls and atheists. We are an organization of principles. If you don’t believe in the Scout law and promise, it would understandable and honorable to leave and form a group based on your beliefs. However, to remain in a group that you do not believe in, is not trustworthy; And to work to undermine that groups principles, is a disloyal act.

      • Mark, I am working to get sexuality out of scouting like it used to be. See cwgmpls’ posts. Duty to God is still proclaimed in our
        Scout Oath. It does not say a fundamentalist Christian God though. It also says nothing about being gay nor straight, nor does the Scout Law.

      • Scouting is not compatible with all religions. Nobody should deny their beliefs in order to enter the forum. This is a grave sin to deny Christ. I do not expect a jew to forego the 10 commandments or a Hindu to forget his beliefs. The fact is that the vast majority a faiths which have found a home in scouting agree that homosexuality has NO part in scouting. If someone wants to start the Atheist Scouts of America, OR the Atheist/Gay Scouts of America, OR the transgender Scouts of America they can do so. We have a right to believe what we believe, we have a right to speak and say what we believe, and we have a right to assemble and organize based on those beliefs. We have these unalienable rights which have been endowed by our Creator! Stop corrupting the scout Oath and Law with homosexuality! Stop trying to redefine scouting! I would rather die than see our beloved scout Oath and Law corrupted!!!!

      • Where does it say that scouting is not compatible with all religions?

      • Todd, we live in a Judeo Christian society. The Aztec religion certainly didn’t believe in “helping other people at all times.” We have such a Western-European viewpoint that we see our principles as universal. History shows that we are an exception, and what a wonderful exception; Let’s preserve those principles we hold so dear.

      • The only religions that are incompatible with Scouting are those whose beliefs will not permit them to subscribe to BSA’s Declaration of Religious Principle, which every leader must explicitly sign and agree to every time we fill out an application. Here’s the part that appears on the application:

        “The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts from the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership.”

        Some people’s faiths will not permit them to agree to that kind of absolutely nonsectarian Scouting. But those who can agree to honor each other’s right to worship God in different ways are welcome. This principle has been part of BSA’s explicit policy for almost 100 years.

      • Karen, every scout is required to follow the scout law and promise. These are beliefs which may not be compatible with all religious tenets…. and like I said the Aztec religion does not believe in kindness or courtesy.

        I was at a meeting a month ago in the San Francisco Bay Area Council, and I was surprised to see parents openly stating that they joined scouting even though they did not BELIEVE in scouting’s policies. They stated that they thought they could “change the organization from within”. THIS IS NOT TRUSTWORTHY. They come to tear down one tenet of our beloved Scout Promise, and in the fray they destroy the principle tenets. THESE INTERLOPERS ARE NOT LOYAL. My uncle fought in Vietnam, and they had a term for those who infiltrated the ranks. The enemy is in the wire. God save us.

      • For nearly a century, the only faiths incompatible with Scouting have been those whose doctrines do not allow them to sign the Declaration of Religious Principle.

      • Some Judeo Christian religions (mine included-Episcopal) teach inclusiveness. So it’s my Duty to God to stand up for that.

      • Do not deny Christ. A secular atheist world view is not the default position which we need to all aspire to. That view is just one world view among many. The scout promise states “On my honor I will do my best to be…. morally straight”.

        There is an EVIL movement in our society that aims to re-define marriage, re-define morality, and redefine scouting. We should be aware that this enemy will not stop until they have corrupted every promise and law in our land. Stand fast against this foe! A scout is brave.

      • My faith also teaches inclusiveness. I would encourage you to take your example from Matthew 5: 43-48 and Matthew 19:14.

        It is not reverent for one Scout to tell another what to believe.

      • Your selectively “Christian” Tina H; your “faith”. I wonder what other things the book of Tina H has to say about God and living a Christian Faith? When you pick a word here and a word there from the bible I guess you can freely choose to make it say just about anything you and your “Faith” want to say. The BSA is a Christian based youth organization. Mainly Christians have built the organization to be what the organization is today. Now people of different “faiths” feel some freedom to hijack and steal what others have spent lifetimes building just to serve their selfish desires. Aggressive Militant Homosexual Acitivists are waking up the silent majority and in time they will realize that their terroistic tactics are going to backfire resulting in their having gained nothing except a greater level of division between themselves and those they thought they could control with their hateful demonic tactics. Satan does live in the hearts of some and he seeks to deceive or use any tactic available to him to destroy what is Holy. The fun part is that God ALWAYS has His Victory, in His time, in His way… It’s eternal…

      • It is still not reverent for you to tell me what I may believe or what I may not believe, nor to tell me that my faith doesn’t meet your faith’s standards. I am not practicing your faith. My faith practices inclusion based on prayerful reflection. BSA must not chose your faith over mine, nor my faith over yours, for us both to be welcome in this organization about which we both care deeply.

      • You really are funny Tina H. You throw Biblical verses around like their of value to you and your faith and then you retreat behind hints of a mysterious faith that seems to steal from God’s Word passages that best serve you in following your mysterious non-Christian faith. I assume now that every word you share is deceptive and I hope you keep sharing your opinions on this blog. every word reveals a little more about the deceitful faith you practice. You shouldn’t choose to deceive JRASM to believe things that will lead him from living a Godly life. You also shouldn’t choose to speak for me; just keep speaking for yourself and your faith…

      • Tina, is inclusion the 11th commandment? And tolerance the 12th? We do not include girls nor atheists into scouts as well, and this is alright. Not all groups are for all people.

        Should we tolerate ignorance? Should we tolerate those who break our laws and policies, like the one anonymous “Eagle Scout” who says he is a gay leader? To me, these are intolerable acts.

      • Tina, I am reverent to God. A scout is NOT God.

        1) You do not love the sinner by encouraging the sinner. READ the ENTIRE sermon on the mount (especially Mathew 5:19) LOVE means telling the truth to the sinner and admonishing sins.

        5:19 “Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.”

      • I expect the comment about reverence was based on the BSA’s handbook definition of “A Scout is Reverent,” which is “A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.” One is reverent toward the divine, but reverence also requires respect of others’ religious beliefs.

      • Are you saying that we should respect Islamic Jihad? Or ritual killing? Or the killing of children.

        Like I said earlier, not all religious beliefs are compatible with the scout promise and law. Reverence is “profound adoring awed respect” and this is reserved for God alone. I can respect that we all have a right to believe, but adoration of mortal men is against the first commandment. Understand? Do I need to include the first commandment in this transmission?

      • If you are teaching your boys the program, then you are teaching them that handbook definition of “Reverent,” straight from the Boy Scout Handbook. That’s where the words come from that say “He respects the belies of others.” And if you completed a leader application, you agreed to abide by the BSA’s Declaration of Religious Principle, which has been in place nearly a century, and which every leader must agree to in order to be eligible. Those are the BSA’s words, not mine.

      • Thank you Karen Zeller. You have just demonstrated what is wrong is our society. If you believe in a creator God, meaning is to be discovered. If you believe in self-creation you believe meaning is to be defined, like NIche.

        The statement you read is not a defining of ‘reverence’. This is an explanation. Everyone knows what reverence means and that it is not the same as respect.

        You talk like a lawyer (without a compass).
        Do you remember when Clinton said “I did not have sex with that woman”. Clinton lied because he spoke to mislead. However, the letter of the law would say what? Get to the spirit of it all! That is where human beings live, raise children, and bury their dead.

      • To be clear, are you saying that you do or do not teach this explanation of “A Scout is Reverent,” found in the Boy Scout handbook? “A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.”

        I’m not sure what lawyers and Bill Clinton are supposed to have to do with following the Boy Scout handbook, but I really don’t think teaching the content of the handbook is what’s wrong with our society. The Declaration of Religious Principle is fundamental to BSA and expresses the same idea in terms for leaders: “The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts from the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership.”

      • Do you know what a straw man fallacy is? You just committed one.

        I am an Eagle Scout my dear lady. Please do not lecture me about the scout handbook.

        My problem is when people read handbooks as if they are law books, and believe that everything they read is a “definition”.

        THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG IN OUR SOCIETY. Redefining words to manipulate outcomes. Corrupting language for their own purposes. Reverent in the scout law is directed to God (by definition), we have a “duty to God”. The handbook reflects this.

        Respect is 2.: an act of giving particular attention : consideration.

        I believe I have given particular attention to the idea of changing our policy and have (after close consideration) found that the policy excluding homosexuality is based on sound scouting principles. The policy is analogous to our policy of excluding atheists.

        Scouting is an organization based on certain beliefs. Not all people NOR all religions share those beliefs. Nobody is required to join or share those beliefs. However, to join a group in which you disagree with those beliefs is NOT a trustworthy act. Wouldn’t you agree? Or do you have another definition for “trustworthy” that you wish to derive from the text of the handbook.

      • Since I did not make an argument, I do not see how I committed a fallacy. I did not argue one thing or another. I did ask a question; I asked whether you do or do not teach the explanation of “A Scout is Reverent” that is found in your handbook. Do you? That’s just a straightforward question.

        I see that you have respected the policy (given particular attention or consideration to it). Of course the handbook explanation says that we respect others’ beliefs. It does not just say “respects _________________,” leaving us to fill in the blank.

        Words mean things. To discuss what they mean — this is the way people reason together. It is not irrelevant.

      • Semantics Karen. Reverence is in regards to God. Respect for the beliefs of others does not mean that you agree with them; it simply means you are considerate that they have a right to believe. (one of those unalienable rights endowed by the creator).

        And isn’t that what this whole issue is about? We have a right to believe what we believe, we have a right to speak and say what we believe, we have a right to publish/promote what we believe, and we have a right to assemble and organize according to those beliefs.

        We are an organization based on principles. Let us defend our beloved scout promise and law against all corruption.

      • This pretty much proves my point that militant homosexual activists are seizing mainstream former Christian denominiations to serve as clubs to beat over Christian Churches and Christian based organizations to serve their purpose of trying to disclaim God’s Holy Word and gain moral acceptance through terroristic tactics, hijacking and stealing what belongs to God; His Church. But those former Christian denominations are dying and when they begin to perform pretend perverted marriages of homosexuals they will finally disappear as their membership will finally say enough is enough and walk away toward Christian Churches that embrace God’s Holy Word and write Church disciplines that reflect biblical principles rather than contradict biblical principles leading to a sinful church doctrine. The Episcopalean, Luthern, Presbyterian (USA) churches are dying. They pretend to reflect God’s will but the truth is being revealed and He has removed His blessing from their churches. You can’t defy God and expect to go un-noticed by Him; He isn’t stupid enough for that; never will be. The entire homosexual movement is becomming a bore to most people as they’ve simply pushed everyone too far and now all of it is going to backfire resulting in the other 99% of the population simply being fed up with all the wrongful attacks against them for following His Word which is written on ever persons heart already. Right will always be right in this modern day and in every modern day to come. It’s truely a timeless struggle between right and wrong; good and evil.

      • “The BSA is a Christian based youth organization.”- Wallace

        Please show me what BSA official document states this? I thought it was nondenominational in nature. Duty to God, but it does not say whose God.

      • Tina H, Exactly what book does your faith use as it’s guiding principle? I’m curious since you quote biblical principles so selectively?

  129. Homosexuality is not a choice. No acne-scarred 17-year old decides “I’m going to submit myself to more unrelenting harassment.” Also, do you have homosexual urges and choose to ignore them? Is your heterosexuality a choice? I try not to be belligerent, but I find it extremely disrespectful that you tell me that I would choose to be removed from such a wonderful organization.

    • Those of us that support the current policy only remind you of the rules. Ant belligerance would be a reflection on your acceptance fof the current policy.

    • In ways I can understand your conflicts JRASM and I’m sure in ways I can’t; I wonder if you can understand mine? The BSA is an organization with a set of standards and rules and one of those standards and rules is that if you think you are a homosexual and you choose to make that known to people in your social circles then you simply do not qualify to be in the BSA; their membership policy disallows you for their reasons. These reasons are their’s to have and they are free to set whatever standards and rules they freely choose to set; a constituional freedom the BSA exercises just like you have and just like I have. It’s part of what this nation is all about; Freedom. Remember what you learned in Citizenship in the Nation; a merit badge I earned as a boy and counseled boys in as an adult. And you should have and should now respect their freedom and respect their memberhip standards and walk away from the BSA; you shouldn’t have chosen to be a member from the time you decided you were a homosexual with homosexual desires; it’s that simple. It doesn’t make you less of a person because you don’t qualify for membership; find an organization where you do qualify for membership. It makes you a lesser character if you choose to violate the membership policy and not respect the BSA’s right to choose a membership policy they want to have regardless of their reasons; its an organization that belongs to millions of people and its not yours; it doesn’t belong to a tiny minority of people who choose to hijack & steal it from the majority of members who want the policy to remain the same for their reasons; their freedom. These members have chosen to join the BSA and comply with the rules and standards of the BSA and to mold their characters to these rules and standards from a desire to build characters the BSA represents; that’s what its all about. Choosing to change yourself to become what you want to be and hopefully that’s a man of good character representing all the good qualities the BSA holds up as a standard for boys to aspire to. Your free to choose to do the same thing too JRASM; your free to choose whatever life and whatever lifestyle you want to choose but your not free to attack other peoples freedoms. And people don’t have to aspire to your standards of behavior you choose for your life just because you think they should in the name of equality.

      Do you think because I’m a heterosexual man within the BSA as a leader that I don’t have standards I have to abide by to be the morally straight man that can be a mentor and a leader and a role model for youth to learn from and look up to. Do you think I’m free to loosely fulfill every desire and follow every temptation I might have and act on those desires and temptations just because I’m a heterosexual? Do you think there are boundaries and standards I freely choose to live by; principles I follow to live a Godly life? If I smoked, drank, lived an adulterous life, frequented the gambling casinos and strip clubs in the area, swore, spoke in disrespectful ways to others that I should demand acceptance and I should qualify for membership as a leader in the BSA? But if I choose freely not to act upon those desires and temptations and I choose to control my behavior and mold my character to all the standards of the BSA and more importantly God then do you think I should qualify for membership in the BSA and more importantly qualify to have an eternal life with God in Heaven through the acceptance of His Grace through the blood sacrifice of my saviour Jesus the Messiah? Yea.. I do… and your free to aspire to all the same character qualities, boundaries, and challenges of following BSA rules and more importantly Biblical Principles for your life; same as me. We all have crosses to carry in life, all of us. Part of yours is a desire for a homosexual lifestyle. But we can all aspire to a greater Love; far beyond fulfillment of earthly desires. And there is the only equality you’ll ever find in your life here on earth; His promise of a spiritual equality with Him in heaven. That’s the real treasure you need to spend your life seeking because in the end its the only one that’s really ever going to matter for any of us. People can choose to see you any way they want to choose to see you; their freedom. But God sees all of us in only one way; all equal in His eyes. I hope you choose to walk away from the BSA if you choose to continue fulfilling your desire for a homosexual lifestyle but more importantly I hope you never choose to walk away from God and that you always choose to seek and to have a close relationship with Him; that’s really the only thing that matters for any of us on this earth and He makes it all the more beautiful by giving us all the freedom to choose Him or not to choose Him. He gives all of us an equal opportunity to be with Him one day; our freedom to choose or not to choose to take advantage of that opportunity… There’s a membership policy that also has a price that needs to be paid; think you can demand He change His rules too; think He will?

    • Your a young man and probably ignorant of all the perspectives you need to try to understand before you try to destroy an organization you’ve described yourself as being wonderful. It is extremely disresptful of you that you would not choose to remove yourself from an organization that has made a membership policy that excludes open homosexuals from being members; a complete disrespctfulness on your part. But your a teenager and teenagers are typically more self centered and selfish; its just the nature of a teenager. I understand that to some degree having been a teenager once and also having two teenage children now. But being 30+ years removed from being a teenager and lived a life of 18 years as a parent I’ve learned to see things and feel differently about things than I might have when I was a 17 year old acne-scarred heterosexual boy with sexual desires and urges I freely chose to restrain in the name of moral straightness. My daughter is 15 years old. Do you think I would allow my daughter to join the BSA and sleep in a tent with male teenage boy of her choosing. Is that what your asking the BSA to permit you or any other homosexual teenage boy to do? Do you think a scoutmaster should be put in the position of deciding if two boys who are sexually attracted to eachother should be allowed to sleep together in the same tent? The energy of sexual attraction I’m assuming is no different between a homosexual boy toward a homosexual boy than it is between a heterosexual boy and a heterosexual girl. Why would a parent leave their teenage daughter in the midsts of a boy scout troop full of teenage boys? Could you imagine an organization like that; all the problems associated with that? Why do you think its ok for a parent to leave their teenage son in a boy scout troop with homosexual boys; boys who have made a point of making it known that they are homosexual and have sexual desires for boys of their son’s age? As a parent let me tell you that a good parent will not allow their son to be in a troop of this character. And this negative energy will be the energy that will eventually destroy and crumble the BSA. This is something you may not understand no since you’ve don’t understand what it means to be a parent and what the love a parent is for their child. You may never understand that type of love but believe me when I tell you that it is a strong love and a child being a member of the BSA to serve some activist or political agenda is meaningless compared to the love a parent has to protect their child and try to do the best for their child to grow to become good adults and quality citizens.

      • Good Point Tina H.. I’ll finish your biblical quote since you chose either deliberately or mistakenly to forget the entire message.

        “Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, they said unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned; but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest even unto the last, and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, no man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, neither do I condemn thee, go, and Sin No More.”

        Tina H makes a good point JRASM; homosexual behavior is sinful behavior but through Christ’s blood sacrifice you can freely choose to accept forgiveness for all sinful behavior and accept God’s Grace leading you back to a renewed relationship with Him. Good Lesson Tina H. And Jesus commanded the sinner to “Sin No More”. He didn’t say to just pretend your sinful behavior isn’t sinful because another human being told you what you wanted to hear; He said “Sin No More” meaning you can freely choose to not live a sinful life seperated from having a relationship with God. I wonder what the adulterous woman did after Jesus saved her life and forgave her for her sins? It doesn’t tell us… I guess she had to decide to live a disobedient sinful life from that moment forward violating what Jesus commanded her to do or to be obedient and live a life obedient to what Jesus taught her; His lessons about sinful behavior and the power of forgiveness. It’s a good story. I think it teaches us that you can’t ignore or rename sin for the convenience of not wanting to feel guilty of living a sinful life. Accept your sinful nature and accept His forgiveness and move toward a more Christ like lifestyle living a life without sin.

        And if I lied about my sexuality in order to gain membership into an organization that I knew did not accept homosexuals as members of their organization I’ve sinned again and I should resign or each day I’m continuing to live a sinful life for having lied to the organization (“go, and Sin No More”). And if I continue to attend the BSA meetings and functions and grow with a lust for their membership that I know is wrongful then I’ve sinned again.

        You made a good point Tina H. I agree. JRASM you should choose to walk away from scouting knowing that at this time in your life you’ve chosen to define yourself as a homosexual and that definition disqualifies you from membership in the BSA. If there’s a day when you choose to no longer define yourself as a homosexual and you know in your heart that you are no longer a homosexual then you might then qualify for membership in the BSA; your freedom to choose to prayerfully walk toward that day. But I agree with Tina H that through Christ’s blood sacrifice you will always find forgiveness for the sinfulness the Holy Spirit convicts you of in your heart. Your freedom to accept His forgiveness is what frees you to then surrender to His will for your life and live a rich life in a loving relationship with Him. It’s all there for you and for all of us.

        But the BSA doesn’t choose to accept homosexuals into its membership for the reasons they freely choose to have. Nobody should choose to lie to gain membership into an organization if they don’t qualify for membership in that organization. Deceitfulness is sinfulness too.

      • I missed the part in the story where Jesus invited others to sit in judgement on the woman forever going forward. Are you sitting in judgement? JRASM’s choices, his very reality, are between him and his God, not you and yours.

      • Tina, I am not sure you want to understand, but I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

        We love sinners. All sinners. Why? Because we are all sinners. Jesus came to save all sinners. Unfortunately some people are like the pharisees and scribes that were non repentant sinners.

        To understand our dilemma, think of some other behavior we may agree is not moral. For example, an adulterer (a philanderer of sorts) comes to be a leader at your troop. He is not repentant (he has no shame); He believes it is OK to “sleep around”. In fact, he professes his belief quite openly to the scouts. This is intolerable.

        Before you dismiss this story. I have a friend who grew up in San Francisco and had a gay leader for some time. The gay leader was open about his gayness to the scouts. He felt it was his religious duty to make scouts aware of gayness. Of course, they removed this leader… because there was a policy they could enforce. People with an agenda proselytize. Some things are intolerable.

      • There is only one God Tina H. He has only given us one Word; the Holy Bible. Since you chose to quote from His Word and selectively use a few of His Words I assumed you lived by His Word. If I misunderstood you then I’ll assume your not a Christian and therefore your not a Christian Sister to me; yoked by the same biblical principles to live a Godly life. But you’ll always be my neighbor. Your tactics are evil and foolish; don’t think your original. Your one of many who choose to try to manipulate and pervert His Word to serve your selfish desires. Keep talking; you only continue to reveal your true nature. I think your funny… you make me laugh…

      • Tina, you reference John 8:7. We don’t have any problem with the repentant sinner. The gay movement is about NON-repentant sinners. They are more akin to the scribes and pharisees who deny they are sinners. Try the letter (1 John 11:10) for size.

        And if you get really anxious read Romans 1:22-32. You are so far from the Truth!

      • We love our children! That is why we fight against corruption of our beloved scout oath and promise. Well said Wallace.

    • JRASM, I suggested you do the honorable thing and resign. If you love scouting and find that you can no longer live under the scout promise, then to leave would be honorable. I left the organization to join the army, and have just returned (maybe in God’s providence?). Leave and live according to your beliefs, but do not try to force your beliefs on others.

      We are all born with tendencies. I remember one new recruit who could not do anything but lie. His first inclination was to lie. However, we held him to the highest standard of scouting; a scout is trustworthy. We don’t change our principles based on political movements nor on personal preferences.

      Yes, We are all equally children of God: Created out of love and destined for eternal life. God is Love. Take away God and it all becomes mere shadows (e.g. love, family, marriage, justice, civil rights, etc.). Romans 1:25

      Good luck JRASM. Peace by with you. I mean that with all my heart.

      • Everyone isn’t destined for eternal life with God Mark. Everyone certainly has an equal opportunity to freely choose to follow His way to an eternal life with Him. It would be foolish to mislead people to believe that without His Grace you could ever be worthy to enter into His Kingdom. Without His Blood Sacrifice there wouldn’t be a way; darkness can never overtake light. I want JRASM to live an eternal life with God; I don’t want him to be mislead or to misunderstand the Way…. He said it would be difficult and that doesn’t mean easy…

      • Wallace, your words are much harsher, but you are right. If you are not heading toward the light, you are heading toward the darkness. I simply thought that to keep sin away from the scouts would be the honorable thing to do. The sin of pride tends to self implode if left to fester. I thought he would head toward that wall and find Christ waiting to help him home.

        Thank you.

      • JRASM, Your sound like the kind of young man that we hope everyone that comes thru the program will become. Please ignore the few hateful messages of some on this blog. They use their Bible to justify putting you down out of ignorance that tells them other beliefs besides their own are not valid. You know better. Scouting asks us all to have a duty to God, the God that we know, understand and revere, as taught to us by our families. This is not always the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition, as taught by a specific church. Not all Catholics believe that use of contraceptives is a sin, despite the teachings of their church. If a young man, or a scouter’s faith tells him and he truly believes that his God does not consider homosexuality a sin, then he has not disobeyed his duty to God, and should not be excluded from this organization. It is not for those of other faith traditions to judge yours. I hope you continue in scouting to serve as a positive role model for the youth in your troop.

  130. Ahoy Mark, At the Council “Listening Session”, two Black Scouters “brissled” at the mention that this problem equates to the “Civil Rights” struggle in the 60’s

    • Thanks for the update Bill. Those scouts should be upset that this gay agenda is compared to the civil rights movement in any way. It’s a lie that should be exposed more readily.

  131. Randomly replies sometime get posted as new posts on the very bottom instead of right after the intended post to be replied to. Sometimes they get stuck randomly in the middle. I wonder if this particular Bryan on Scouting topic has been the most ever posted to?

    • I was not watching this blog when BSA tried to sneak the first one past the membership but the second one did not carry on this long. Watershed decision about to be made by 1.400 people to be felt for years.

  132. This is what I know pragmatically, not religiously. 1. My straight neighbors hesitate to buy popcorn because they feel it supports a discriminating organization. 2. My straight friend is on the fence about her son joining for the same reason. 3. The BSA listening surveys this spring showed that those under age 50 support a less discriminatory policy. If BSA wants to grow in other than LDS or fundamentalist areas, it is going to have to respond to mainstream views. BSA supported racial integration when the Southern chartered orgs weren’t so keen on it.

    Religiously, how far do we condemn others for not following doctrine as a scout? Do we remove a scoutmaster when a few adults are aware that he quietly had heterosexual sex outside of marriage, or do we forgive and keep it out of the troop? Any leader who blatantly puts sexuality into scouting, whether by big passionate kisses with his wife at a troop meeting, or marching in a gay pride parade in a scouting uniform, is unacceptable. I think the defining issue is whether the scout is throwing sex as an issue into scouting, which is the wrong place.

    • I am responding to you as an Adult leader in Scouting and a parent of an Eagle Scout who sold popcorn, Spirit Cards, Boston butts, spaghetti dinners, pizza dough and whatever we could find to provide a proper Cub Scout and Boy Scout program.

      Pragmatically as you say, when I see a post like yours I recognize the colorful tapestry that America has become where people can be so different in different parts of the Country. Also, when I see a post like yours I respond with my experience to encourage those do not live in a less tolerant part of the United States.

      I have never experienced any person like you describe who hesitates to buy popcorn because we have a “discriminatory” policy toward homosexuals. Not once. Even those who do not buy popcorn say nothing about the BSA policy even if we are selling in front of Wal-mart. I believe you we just don’t get that in our Community. The good works of Cub and Boy Scouts are primarily the comments we get. I can see that your community must be a progressive community since anyone who believes in the current policy must be LDS or “fundamentalist.” Christian I am guessing not Muslim, Jewish or other religion. I reject acceptance of homosexuality as “mainstream” in America since only recently after years of positive reinforcement of homosexuality in popular culture and progressive community publik schools, it has tilted to over 50% and that is in opinion. At best 6 in 100 practice homosexuality so that is hardly mainstream. Strip Club patrons probably outnumber homosexuals by a wide margin but i would not call that behavior mainstream. Nice to bring Southern racism into it to and label a whole area of the country racist but we’re used to it. A lot of good people let segregation happen and it was evil. A lot of good people helped end it and many in the South. In any case, its ridiculous to compare segregation to exclusion of homosexuals on morality concerns.

      As I said in my very first post on this issue so long ago on this thread, i do not say that BSA is a Christian organization and I have dedicated 16 years to it because it is compatible with Christian morals and values. it is one program of many for Youth in our Church. When it becomes incompatible, I will leave it. All that to say, no one is condemning a Scout for not following doctrine that I have seen and I certainly I am not. My Christianity has very little doctrine and very much spiritual truth. The issue for me has always been that a Scout cannot be “morally straight”and “clean” and be an “open and avowed” homosexual. since being “out” means expressing your sexual preference, not tendencies as so many have said here to defend celibate homosexuals of which I have never seen or heard of one in over 50 years. I have seen that expressing homosexuality in your manner and habits to be the majority behavior.

      Nancy D. posted: “Do we remove a scoutmaster when a few adults are aware that he quietly had heterosexual sex outside of marriage, or do we forgive and keep it out of the troop?”

      In my Troop, absolutely. He or she is a terrible role model for young people. Are you actually saying the Scoutmaster should stay?

      Nancy D. posted: “Any leader who blatantly puts sexuality into scouting, whether by big passionate kisses with his wife at a troop meeting, or marching in a gay pride parade in a scouting uniform, is unacceptable. I think the defining issue is whether the scout is throwing sex as an issue into scouting, which is the wrong place.”

      I ask you, how can a Scout not throw sex as an issue into Scouting when he has said he likes sex with boys? Otherwise, how do you know he is a homosexual? I don’t think he or his parents will be able to help themselves except to bring it into Scouting. They want acceptance of their son and he wants acceptance from his peers on the parents and the Scouts terms. Any denial of acceptance will be dealt with by labeling the offending Scout a “homophobe” and throwing the offending Scout out. That should not happen.

      I have also said many times Scouting is not for everyone. Otherwise, it would be a Social program or Social club. BSA builds leaders of high moral character and values. Current policy says homosexuals are incompatible with that goal and I stand by the Policy. I’d pass that along to your “friend on the fence” and tell them take a stand for their son and join or not. Riding the fence only makes your butt sore.

      • Fred-We must live in the same region except when we sell popcorn at walmart they say no and go in and buy the same product for $5. Same product,same supplier. Had a cousin work in the office at the popcorn company. Heck some of it is grown in our county.

        We are about done with popcorn. We are adding wreaths this fall. When I was in cub scout and sold them we sold more volume and made more off the wreaths.

        No one ever mentioned discrimination to me before. Some one said Eagle was not worth putting on resume and colleges would trash the application. Yet national press supported the eagle who was expelled for taking a skeet gun to school by mistake and had his mom come to take it home.

    • And all the worst scenarios will certainly manifest themselves if the policy is passed and homos are permitted to be members of the BSA; It will all happen in time. And Homo pride day will come in Disney or other places in the country and the homos will don their BSA uniforms, band together and march in triumph down the streets of wherever it is that a homo pride parade will be taking place. Won’t that be a great day for scouting. Won’t that be attractive to all the prospective boys who hoped to one day be scouts and possibly earn the Eagle Rank but won’t because the membership policy changed and militant homos who choose to parade around in their uniforms triumphant for having conquered and destroyed the BSA will have stolen the BSA from boys who want no stigma or association with an organization that has now become the image of the homosexual community; another pretty feather in their pretty cap. Do you honestly think hetero teenage boys are going to become or continue being members of the BSA if the membership policy is changed. Do you honeslty think anyone in the BSA or outside the BSA is going to stop the homos from their triumphant parades, news talk show appearances etc. Nancy D.? Are you kidding me. And the BSA will be dependent on the < 1% of the population (i don't believe its a true number) who are homos to seel their popcorn, be members of the BSA, and participate in all the programs the BSA has and will have to offer including sensitivity training for hetero leaders and scouts in how to cater to the needs of the homo boy scout. You'd honestly have to be a fool to not believe all of these things will happen and come to pass. And that will be the end of the BSA. Without youth members theirs no sense in having a youth organization now is there. Why would anyone allow a tiny group of aggressive militant homosexual activists to control their organization and their organizations future? Since when did Americans start to allow terroristic tactics control their freedoms including their freedom to assemble with a membership consisting of whatever that free American Organization desired. If your friends don't buy popcorn then good for them for standing up for their right to choose who they want to support financially or who they don't want to support. I know many many more people that will be done buying popcorn and finished supporting an organization that's become perverted in their mission and permissive of homosexual behavior to exist in their ranks. And when the first 17 year old homo scout molests or rapes a 13 or 14 year homo or hetero scout what do you think that'll do for popcorn sales.. Who cares about popcorn sales at that point. The BSA will have changed a Youth Protection Membership Policy and opened the door for this tragic attack to happen, and yes, it will happen in time, you'd truly be a fool to not believe that. And then what will the BSA say? Will they blame it on the Council, the District, the Scoutmaster left having to admit homosexual boys into his troop. But what about the victim.. boils down to the victim doesn't it. The life of a boy ruined because you were worried about your neighbors not buying popcorn from the BSA. And I'll place the blame on you Nancy and everyone else that's supporting the policy to be changed to allow homosexual teenage boys the opportunity to join a youth organization and be allowed to be in intimate settings with younger scouts who inevitably at some point will develop a physical attraction for and a desire to have sex with.. It's only natural isn't it. Homo bloggers on here have said that they can't control being homos; the way they were born. And as a parent I'm supposed to trust a homo teenage boy to be with my hetero teenage son. About as much as I trust a hetero male 17 year old stranger to be with my 15 year old teenage daughter. My son won't be rechartered and since I pay the rechartering fee and I am the custodian of my son that's the way it will be. And the aggressive militant homos will have stolen the scouting experience away from my son but more important to me is that he will not be molested or raped in a tragic attack that will ruin him for the rest of his life. I love him that much that I'll protect him in spite of politcal correctness. Call me a racist, nazi, bigot, intolerant, rat, pig whatever you want; my son means more to me than any verbal attacks, I can take them all.

    • Nancy, I live at ground zero. They will not stop. The current suggested policy change is an attempt to establish a foothold in which a landslide of legal measures will be used to force us to accept gay leaders.

      AND BY NOT MISTAKEN: Gay activists will infiltrate the BSA simply to proselytize their beliefs to young boys.

      • Mark. I agree 100%. There are many homosexuals and homosexual parents who may not pursue enforcing their beliefs on others individually but with a high-profile target like BSA, you can rest assured that national Homosexual advocacy group lawyers including the ACLU will descend on BSA and make a point to not only allow homosexual leaders but implement a sensitivity training program so hetero boys would know how to act around homosexual boys..

    • We forgive repentant sinners, Nancy. The gay movement is not a repentant group filled with people who love Christianity or the Scouts. I have spoken to the hardliners. They are determined to destroy us.

      IF WE DON’T WAKE UP to the attack, we will be overrun!!!!!

      The response to the world is NO. And as far as the money goes, it doesn’t take much to camp…. a scout is thrifty. I do not consider 30 pieces of silver a substitute for my soul.

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