Homepage Forums General Scouting Is it true? Scouts will lead NYC gay parade?

This topic contains 64 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by  derek jones 3 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #26071 Reply

    Yesterday’s Scout

    There are stories showing up on the net claiming that uniformed BSA members will lead the gay parade this year (2014) in New York City. Is this true? Does National approve?

  • #26072 Reply

    Steve Parker

    Is it true? From what I have read, YES

    Does National approve? I would think NO.

    I imagine there will be some fallout for current registered adults, but I can’t imagine anything happening to youth. eventually National will realized that the majority of the BSA, and the country are in favor of treating each other equally and not discriminating.

  • #26083 Reply

    Yesterday’s Scout

    I saw a membership survey in which the only region that supported homosexuality was the Northeastern Region, and the only parents who supported homosexuality were the very young; hardly a majority. But then, BSA needs corporate money; I wonder how much they’ve received since they decided to throw “morally straight” out the window. I used to regard BSA as the one organization that was safe for my sons; now I worry about every activity and outing. Did you see the so-called “sex files”? Almost entirely male-on-male sexual assaults. Let me guess, you’re going to tell me that those incidents weren’t homosexual activity.

    BSA hasn’t been very consistent – they banned Wiccans (who believe in a higher power) and atheists (who do not) but folded on the issue of homosexuality (evidently the definition of “morally straight” changed since I joined 46 years ago).

    • #26089 Reply

      Steve Parker

      Don’t confuse pedophelia with homosexuality, they are not the same thing. Any abuse is deplorable and that is the reason for background checks, youth protection training, and two deep leadership.

      Buy your logic, we should not have straight women leaders, because they are attracted to the opposite sex, and therefore will molest boys. Doesn’t make sense.

      Not sure what the definition of Morally Straight was 46 years ago, but it has nothing to do with being gay or not.

    • #26097 Reply

      not again

      A minority of parents and adult leaders want gay guys taking Scouts into the woods.

      It’s pretty obvious that BSA had received serious negative consequences for letting openly gay youth remain members.

    • #26109 Reply

      Steve Parker

      What negative consequences have there been for the BSA? I guess it is not that obvious.

    • #26199 Reply

      not again

      Negative consequences are almost tripling of the rate at which membership declined last year, serious drop in FoS and alumni giving and the creation of an alternative program that is more appealing to conservative COs.

      You can try and put lipstick on that pig if you want but it clear that Robert Gates understands the serious consequences that happened. He was an advocate of allowing gay adult leaders but has said he will not address the issue in the 2 years of his term because he doesn’t want to destroy Scouting over it.

      There are plenty of forums for blathering over this, so I’m out of this one. Talk is cheap, action has consequences. BSA knows that.

    • #26203 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      My FOS check this year was half what it was last year. Gates is correct that if he pushes this any further a lot more people will leave. Who’s going to write all those FOS checks? I harbor no illusions, though. As soon as he’s out the door, someone at national will raise the issue once again. I suspect there are still too many corporate donations being withheld. The decisions are being made not on the basis of morality, but on the basis of business.

    • #26131 Reply


      46 years ago “morally straight” probably forbade interracial relationships and marriages too.

      Love it or hate it, the concept of morality matures. Many once morally defensible positions not longer are.

    • #26200 Reply

      not again

      Phony analogy.

    • #26151 Reply

      Stacey Sarnicola

      Steve Parker, you are a most open-minded and intelligent man. I have very much enjoyed your comments. I am one of the leaders from Brooklyn Scouts for Equality, and yes, we have organized a large group of uniformed Boy Scouts from ALL over the country, from ages 8 all the way to 87, gay and straignt. We believe in equality for all. Homophobia is the problem, NOT homosexuality. It is difficult to combat such ignorance that equates homosexuality with pedophilia. If it is about that then why aren’t lesbians allowed to serve as leaders in the BSA. I am here to let people know that there are many current and former Scouts and Scouters who are working for inclusiveness in the BSA, and I encourage you to join us! Scouts for Equality

    • #26157 Reply

      Steve Parker

      Aww, shucks. 🙂

  • #26096 Reply

    Yesterday’s Scout

    Don’t make excuses for putting my sons at risk of homosexual assault. Or, for that matter, for BSA trying to indoctrinate them with the idea that homosexuality is good, natural, and normal, and a state of life to which to aspire.

    Don’t confuse pedophilia with ephebophilia. There is a difference, and either way, when it is male on male it is by definition homo (same) sexual activity. Don’t glorify two men engaging in sexual activity. Especially don’t try to suggest that man on man sex is normal and natural.

    Why not exclude women, you ask? Simple. Go through the “sex files” that BSA released. Take the time to go through any number of cases. Let me know what you find – tell me the percentage of incidents involving a woman and a boy, then tell me the percentage of incidents involving a man and a boy. I shall await your results.

  • #26099 Reply

    Yesterday’s Scout

    I did it for you, Steve. My Good Turn, as it were. I went through every case for which a document was available. Out of almost 3000 records, there were 7 women named. One woman was named twice and another’s record indicated that she was not involved with Scouting. So 5, then. Let’s go with 3000 records for ease of calculation. That’s just about 0.17% of sex offenders in BSA being women. And guess what else I found? BSA in its own records mentions “homosexual activity” with Scouts, i.e., youth members. And, yes, way back then, “morally straight” did indeed include one’s sexual behavior, no matter what revisionists may say.

    • #26108 Reply

      Steve Parker

      Well, as long as you are going through the data, can you tell me how many of the men were heterosexual and married? I would appreciate a link to the data if it is available on line.

  • #26110 Reply


    Any male who engages in sexual activity with another male (in these cases with juvenile males) is a homosexual. That’s percisely what a homosexual is. Does that mean that all homosexuals are molesters? Certainly no. But all male scout leaders who molest male scouts are homosexuals regardless of weather they publicly admit to it. Therefore if bsa were theoretically able to eliminate all homosexuality from its leaders by default male scout molestations would drop 99.83% based on past documented cases.

    Sound to me to be a pretty good reason to ban male homosexual leaders regardless of ones religious or moral beliefs.

    Could you honestly defend your position of encouraging the introduction of male homosexual leaders into scouting to any one of those 99.83% of boys? I know I couldn’t.

    • #26111 Reply

      Steve Parker

      Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children and are preadolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so. The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual (Groth & Gary, 1982, p. 147).

      Facts, not fear.

    • #26201 Reply

      not again

      They are sexually attracted to young men.

  • #26112 Reply

    Steve Parker

    This is an interesting page with a lot of good info for parents:


  • #26119 Reply

    Yesterday’s Scout

    Here you go, Steve. Very easy to Google, but hey, it’s another Good Turn by me for you. The list is available on more than one website, but this is the one I used.


    You asked me how many were heterosexual and married. I would venture to say “none”. If they’re engaged in homosexual acts, then they are homosexual. If they married a woman but engaged in homosexual acts, then they are bisexual or homosexual and “bearding” (if I have the correct slang term).

    • #26125 Reply

      Steve Parker

      Thank you for the link. I did find that shortly after I made that post.

      You seem to know more about homosexuality than me, but the research of those that are learned on the subject does not agree with you. The APA and UC Davis are just two sources I dug up yesterday.

      Facts not Fear.

    • #26133 Reply


      What pops out as shocking about that data, is that many of those names are listed multiple times with different troops. They just moved around looking for new victims. It is disgusting that this was swept under the rug for so long. Transparency is a good thing.

      The YPT we all have now provides an environment that is safer than ever.

  • #26120 Reply


    I agree with Yesterday’s Scout.

    I find it quite disingenuous to claim that a person is heterosexual if he actively participates in homosexual behavior. If a male scout leader is molesting a male scout, he is engaging in homosexual behavior. You can justify yourself however you like but it is still homosexual act and those people performing those acts are homosexuals.

    • #26156 Reply

      Steve Parker

      Going to twist that for you and mention that men that abuse young girls are therefore heterosexual abusers. It follows that there should be no male heterosexual leaders as venturing advisers, since they will probably molest all the female youth members. I would not be so quick to paint every heterosexual male as a sexual predator interested in little girls.

      Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

      Gay men are not out to get your scouts any more than straight men. We all take YPT for a reason, and we all follow the rules for a reason. It protects the scout and the adult leader. Adults that molest children are our enemy, and Sexual orientation is irrelevant.

    • #26202 Reply

      not again

      Exactly. Some of these people cite Jerry Sandusky as heterosexual when he is clearly a homosexual pedophile. Not not all gays are pedo, all pedos that are attracted to boys are homosexual pedophiles.

  • #26123 Reply


    First of all … it’s not a “gay parade.” A “gay parade” would be something fabulous and celebratory. In NYC, our Pride event is a MARCH — a march in protest, until equality is achieved for all.

    And yes, we will be at the front of 14,000 participants, providing a patriotic, uniformed color guard (carrying the American flag, NYC flag, NYS flag), a uniformed honor guard (marching behind the flags) and wonderful assortment of friends, family, supporters and allies, marching behind a Scouts for Equality banner.

    The Greater New York Councils (GNYC) are completely aware this is happening – we are not “sneaking behind anyone’s back” and springing this on them. We have absolute transparency, because we have also have respect for our Councils. In fact, they were alerted even before we partnered with GLAAD on a press release.

    The GNYC’s own public statement on the matter is what gives us permission to be in this march:

    “In its 103 year history, the Greater New York Councils has never denied membership to a youth or adult due to sexual orientation and is actively working to advocate for a more inclusive national policy. <…> We strongly believe that both gay adults and youth must be welcomed in Scouting.”


    Now, have you met any of these exemplary men and women who want to volunteer and be Scout leaders — and who are also LGBT? Many of them are EAGLE SCOUTS — yes, our own “elite” best-of-the-best — and yet we tell them: “Thanks, but … You’re not worthy to lead a Scout Troop.”

    Homosexuality does NOT equal pedophilia.

    We are looking forward to Sunday’s march.

    • #26171 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      I overlooked this before, but if in 103 years Greater New York Councils ignored National policy and allowed homosexuality, why didn’t National revoke their charters? I wonder what National will do if a council decides on its own not to allow homosexuals to register in Boy Scout troops? Will they look the other way again?

    • #26405 Reply


      “In its 103 year history, the Greater New York Councils has never denied membership to a youth or adult due to sexual orientation and is actively working to advocate for a more inclusive national policy. <…> We strongly believe that both gay adults and youth must be welcomed in Scouting.”

      In his March 25, 2014 editorial to the Wall Street Journal, Secretary Gates laments Vladimir Putin’s lack of concern for due process and rule of law.

      How ironic, the national office under Gates is most Putinesque in enforcing policy.

  • #26124 Reply

    Yesterday’s Scout

    Why not just form your own group? Gay Scouts? Rainbow Scouts? Then you wouldn’t have to march, parade, or whatever. You wouldn’t have to recite “morally straight” either. You partner with GLAAD, we partner with a church.

    Male on male is homosexuality, female on female is homosexuality, regardless of anyone’s efforts to redefine the term. Same sex is homosexuality. Whether Eagle Scouts or not, if they are homosexual I do not want them taking my sons off into the woods.

    So Greater New York Councils are pro-homosexual. Good to know – now I know where not to allow my sons to travel for events. Have a great time marching with your banner and your “wonderful assortment of friends, family, supporters and allies.” Too bad neither the council nor National will enforce the rule against wearing the uniform for political purposes.

    Answer one question for me, if you will: what is the difference between a “supporter” and an “ally”? I assume there is some critical distinction, since the two terms are used so often by the pro-homosexuality crowd.

    • #26126 Reply

      Steve Parker

      My troop is not partnered with a church. Many troops are not.

      The whole form your own Gay Scouts organization argument is silly, but there are at least two groups out there that are taking some of the BSA membership.

      One of them is Trail Life, which was formed after the vote to allow gay youth. This is a bible based group that does not allow gay youth, and it fairly bigoted in my opinion.

      The other is Baden Powell Service Association, BPSA. They are similar to the BSA, but they are fully inclusive and do not discriminate on sexual orientation or religion. They are looking like a good alternative to many if the BSA doesn’t move into the 21st century.

      Both of these are small in comparison of course.

      As far as the parade being a political event, I would not consider it that. To me a political event is a rally or appearance for a candidate. A parade is more of a celebration. Presenting the American flag is an honor, no matter where you do it, and should be something celebrated. If Scouts cant do that, we need to rethink this whole organization.

    • #26172 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      Steve, what’s silly about homosexuals forming their own Scouting group? They can meet, camp, climb, boat, whatever, with like-minded people. The Wiccans did just that about 13 years ago when they formed SpiralScouts. They explicitly welcome people of any sexual activity, any or no religious background … so why march and parade to try to force the BSA to do something that their group is already doing? Instead of instigating controversy over membership standards and abandonment of time-honored ways, why not move into an organization that is ready and waiting with open arms?

    • #26132 Reply


      According to the database you linked to, there are approximately 30 individuals identified from the Greater NYC council, an avowed supporter of inclusiveness.

      Given the thesis “if there are no gays, there will be no abuse” I’d expect the GNYC council to be a statistical outlier because it is up front about allowing anyone. There should be more abuse cases in GNYC.

      Compare it to the City of Houston, a portion of the Sam Houston Council. Houston is smaller than GNYC but I’m guessing they serve roughly the same number of youth over the decades. They have no such non-discrimination statement on their website and I will presume, admittedly without knowing, that they more vigorously enforce the gay leader ban.

      How many individuals appear when you enter Houston as the search term? About 30. Do you consider Houston unsafe for your boys too? It’s just as likely there’s a pedophile there as in GNYC. It’s just more likely that pedophile has a wife.

      There is no statistical difference in this data between gay friendly and gay unfriendly as it relates to reported abuse cases.

  • #26127 Reply

    Brian Zollweg

    I think it is great to have the boys provide a flag corps in the parade. They have done this for 100 plus years of parades, events, and political functions.

    On the membership policy, this has nothing to do with safety of the boys, as you have seen from the data. It is generally heterosexual married men who have been abusers in the past. Background checks, training for adults and youth, and 2 deep leadership are effective and are now in place. If you are worried about the safety of you child, you statistically should be more worried about him being around your married neighbor as a scout leader than a gay man. But frankly my experience has shown that statistics and logic don’t work when people are hateful and bigoted.

    Thankfully the BSA has finally woken up and has stopped enabling this abuse. They have protected predators for far too long by not involving police, allowing predators to rejoin units, and by not providing appropriate 2 deep leadership rules and training to youth and adults.

    An 18 year old Eagle scout who serves his unit is exactly the type of young man who should go on to provide leadership to his unit. It doesn’t matter if he is gay or straight.

    • #26152 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      Brian, you are playing with words. Whether married to women or not, those men who are committing homosexual acts are not heterosexual. Period. They are either homosexuals (“bearding” is what I thin the homosexual community calls it) or bisexual. Not wanting to or unable to find an adult homosexual partner, they prey on younger, inexperienced males. Some of them are pedophiles (sexually attracted to children below the age of puberty), some are ephebophiles (attracted to younger people who are experiencing puberty or have recently passed that stage of life).

      Calling me hateful for following the teachings of my Church is about what I expect these days. All I can say to that is Scripture tells us there will be a great falling away form the faith and we are seeing it unfold before our eyes. (This is not confined to the issue at hand; cohabitation without marriage, divorce, contraception, drug addiction – the list goes on and on.) I think you are a bigot – obviously you hate people who were raised with traditional American values – which begs the question of why then did you join BSA?

      I will concede, and in fact agree, that BSA essentially made this mess themselves. As the “secret sex files” clearly show, some offenders moved from unit to unit. Law enforcement was not involved in who knows how many cases. And in a period of three or so years, BSA went from “the Scout Oath and Law are inviolable” to gay is okay.

      Nutmegger, thanks for the warning about Houston.

      Finally, Steve Parker, who’s afraid? “Facts Not Fear”? How about Morally Straight?

      I’m not stupid; it is apparent why BSA made the change. Membership is dropping and The Powers That Be (National Council) have got the idea into their heads that if they allow active, open homosexuals into the organization, then lots of new homosexual members (and “allies” and “supporters”, I assume) are going to rush in and stop the membership decline. (I suspect they are counting on younger women to enroll their sons into Cub Scouting.) On top of that, the big corporations were withholding large contributions, until BSA changed its membership standards to conform with corporate policy.

      Have fun at your parade, excuse me, your MARCH.

    • #26155 Reply

      Steve Parker


      I guess I’ll be the one to give you the quote, from my Boy Scout Handbook. ‘And Morally Straight. Your relationships with others should be open and honest. Respect and defend the beliefs of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions and faithful in your religious beliefs. Values you practice as a scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self reliance.”

      Notice it does not say, “except gay people.”

      Believe what you will, free country and all that. But to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation is wrong. There really are no two ways about it. It used to be half way acceptable to discriminate on race, gender, nationality, disabilities, religion… We’ve become a more enlightened society, and most right thinking people believe that “all men are created equal”. Not just men, not just whites, not just Christians, not just those with a high IQ and two good legs, not just straight. ALL. Eventually we will overcome this as we have overcome (to what degree is debatable) other prejudices. It will take time. We still have not elected a female president, only recently a black man. Any Jews or Atheists? We’d like to think we’ve come along way, but we’ve got a long way to go. Judge someone by the “Content of their character,” and not the color of their skin or gender, or heritage, or orientation, or religion……

      Enough of a rant.

    • #26168 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      Steve, what edition of the Scout Handbook are you quoting? The 7th Edition contains this statement: “At this moment, while you are still a boy, you must make decisions that will shape the rest of your life.” What decisions are the pro-homosexual people helping these young boys to make?

      You are correct that all men are created equal … but some choose to follow the path of traditional American values, and some chose to follow a path of their own making. And some choose to insist that wrong is right.

      Call it discrimination if you wish, “free country and all that” as someone wrote recently. I know what my Church teaches and I know what Scouting used to be. And I have a feeling you will get your wish before long – homosexual men will be admitted as Boy Scout leaders within ten years, I’m guessing. Those corporate donations are going to be too hard to resist. Lots of families will leave the organization, some churches will lose their units, and those of you who remain can find a new reason to hold parades, uh, marches.

    • #26177 Reply

      Steve Parker

      The BSA has Several things that a new group does not:

      Established camps and High adventure bases
      Local service centers, record keeping, training
      Uniforms, advancements, publications
      A long history and reputation (declining unfortunately)
      A presence in nearly every community

      The BSA is a good program, except for the discrimination. Once they fix that it will be GREAT again.

      If folks want to try out one of these other groups, go for it. Since there is no group in my area, I think that would be folly trying to start a new troop / chapter etc.

      Now the the main reason I have a problem with that idea is that it should not be necessary. BSA make us proud again.

    • #26180 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      Steve, you write, “…it will be GREAT again.” THANK YOU! You admit that in the past BSA was better than it is now. I could not have said it better myself. Thank you.

    • #26181 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      Steve, you and others who are unhappy with BSA really ought to check out SpiralScouts. They have much of what you mention in your post: uniforms, advancement, rank structure, an international organization (units in the Americas and Europe). They explicitly welcome people of all sexual proclivities, and people of any (or no) religious belief. Instead of tearing BSA apart from within, those who think it is not a great organization can build their own to their own desires and specifications. Those of us who believe BSA was a great organization (until they capitulated to social activists) can then start rebuilding BSA into what it was intended to be. It’s a win-win situation.

    • #26178 Reply

      Steve Parker

      Sorry, my other reply about alternative programs was meant for that conversation.

      The info from the BSA handbook came from the 12th edition. I believe that is the latest.

    • #26179 Reply

      Steve Parker

      Call it discrimination if I wish? Could not call it anything else.

      The future will be interesting, I hope the BSA moves to correct this policy before it becomes irrelevant. When you ask someone what they think of the BSA, and the words bigot and homophobic are included in the list, we’ve got to change.

    • #26182 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      Are you saying my Church is discriminatory? How about The Holy Bible?

    • #26186 Reply

      Steve Parker

      I don’t know about your church, so I can’t say. Nor am I a bible scholar. IF your church treats people differently because of who they are, then yes.

    • #26187 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      Well, read The Bible and get back to me with you opinion. And let me know if you think it is the inspired Word of God or just a collection of tales and stories.

      Apparently you feel that sin must be ignored and accepted or a Church is discriminatory. Interesting.

    • #26189 Reply

      Steve Parker

      For me, this is not a religious topic. I won’t get into that argument, many others are better informed.

      For me, this is a Human Rights issue, and religion is irrelevant.

    • #26190 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      Free expression of religion is a human right, as is freedom of association. Seems like you want one rule for thee and another for me.

    • #26208 Reply

      Steve Parker

      Nope, I am good with all those. Practice your faith, assemble as you desire, just don’t discriminate against anyone in the process.

      It’s not a safety issue.

      It is a morality issue, in that it is morally wrong to treat someone as a second class citizen because of their sexual orientation.

    • #26191 Reply


      Correct me if I’m wrong.

      – You think gay men (and maybe boys) pose a threat to scouts
      – Regardless of whether they do or do not pose such a threat, your religious beliefs dictate that homosexuality is sinful.
      – Because homosexuality is a sin, it has no place in scouting.

      I think that’s a reasonable summary of your comments.

      The logical simplification of your position is that where X = sin, X has no place in scouting. Therefore, depending on your flavor of religious belief, you should be equally passionate about expelling the following from scouting:
      – anyone who has lied
      – anyone who has dishonored their parents
      – anyone who has taken the Lord’s name in vain
      – anyone who has taken another life (including military veterans)
      – anyone who has had sex out of wedlock
      – viewed pornography
      – and on and on

      If no one who has sinned belongs in scouting, there is no scouting.

      “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

    • #26204 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      When I was a Webelos preparing to cross over to the Boy Scout Troop, I along with the other Webelos were read the Scout Law by our Cubmaster. Point #1: Trustworthy. “A Scout’s honor is to be trusted. If he were to violate his honor by telling a lie or by cheating or by not doing exactly a given task, when trusted on his honor, he may be directed to hand over his Scout badge.” Page 39, 7th edition, BSA Handbook.

      You seem to have only passing familiarity with the concept of sin, so you would not know that almost all sins can be forgiven, but forgiveness depends on the resolve not to commit the sin again. Many fail a this but the attempt must be made; and some refuse to admit they are sinning. Then again, many rationalize their behavior, in their own minds transforming wrong into right. Marital infidelity, divorce, premarital sexual relations, contraception, abortion, all of which once were crimes, are now celebrated as good things that should be available to all.

      I am glad you are open to the idea that homosexuality has no place in Scouting. This is a good start. You might want to read the book, Making Gay Okay: How Rationalizing Homosexual Behavior Is Changing Everything, by R.R. Reilly.

    • #41101 Reply

      derek jones

      so show me in any bible where it says its ok to be gay , any bible ,,,,, and i dont care to hear the tired old ,,, well my church believes,,,, the pharisees believed other than what the bible said , and i think we all know how that worked out for the pharisees,,,, so what does your bible say ,,,,,

      also ill point out that trustworthy is in the scout law and members agree to follw it upon signing an application ,both yourh and adult ,,, so all the old eagles ur referring to were hiding and lieng the whole time they were in the bsa ,,,,,

    • #26192 Reply


      Besides Houston and NY, what other cities will you avoid? I am confident you’ll find sex abuse cases pretty much anywhere regardless on how welcoming the councils are to gay scouters.

    • #26205 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      I did not permit my son to attend an event in another city which I was unable to attend. Now that anything goes in BSA I need to accompany both of them.

    • #26207 Reply

      Steve Parker

      Thanks for being an involved parent and participating with your sons. That being said, if you can’t trust the unit leadership to provide appropriate supervision, you may want to find a new unit.

    • #26211 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      It was not a unit activity, it was an activity involving multiple units and mine would have been the only one from our unit attending. I could not attend, and no longer being able to count on the security of such events I had to keep him from attending. Our unit is chartered by a Church and our adult leadership is uniformly against homosexuality in Scouting. In fact, we lost three leaders (two of them Eagle Scouts) as soon as the news hit that BSA was going gay. I imagine that as time passes fewer and fewer Churches will charter units, as the homosexual agenda is more and more aggressively promoted within BSA. I guess I’ll stop here. Today’s their “big day” and I won’t rain on their parade, I mean, march.

    • #26284 Reply

      Brian Zollweg

      I’m sorry, I missed your point. It must be that straight-seeming, married men should not be leaders since they committed the crimes that the BSA covered up? Your “logic” has no facts or logic to it.

      Bottom line, there is nothing wrong with gay leaders, there is no proof that there is a safety issue whatsoever. There have always been and will always be gay scouts and scouters (and coaches, and teachers, and ministers, and neighbors). Stick your head in the sand if you would like, but it’s not going to change anything.

      Bigots have their own group for straight, ultra-conservative Christians – Trail Life. They did decide to allow non-whites in for “diversity” purposes. Perhaps that is a better fit for you and your sons?

  • #26128 Reply

    David E Green

    What a great opportunity for scouts to serve our community by presenting the colors!

    Anytime our youth participate in community activities it shows that scouting can remain relavent and important to America and the world.

    I will be marching with our scouts in spirit as they are greeted with friendship by the wonderful people of New York, my home state.

    The BSA™ allows scouts to participate in events like this which are civic events and not political gathering.

  • #26138 Reply

    Mike Walton (settummanque)

    I agree with Dave Green above, gang; and with Crystal (and thank you for outlining exactly what those Scouts and Scouters will be doing during the march). As long as the event is respectful and not political in design, a good way for Scouts and Scouters to demonstrate representative citizenship is through such public flag marches/presentations.

    I hope they have a great time at the event and help gain new members and allies as part of our great Scouting program.

  • #26244 Reply

    Steve Parker

    Well, looks like the workd didn’t end when Scouts marched in parades over the weekend. Thanks to all for providing a patriotic service.

    • #26246 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      No, the world didn’t end. Nobody thought it would. Too bad they used small children in Scout uniforms (Cub Scouts and Daisy Scouts) to promote the homosexual agenda. I will say nothing more about that man in the *very* short cutoff jean shorts who had all his Scouting patches sewn onto a sleeveless uniform shirt other than I think he is a perfect example of what will become commonplace in Scouting if the pro-homosexual Scouting forces get their way.

      Click on the link, second photo down.


    • #26247 Reply

      Steve Parker

      “Used small children”

      Cub scouts and Daisy scouts march in parades all the time. Point invalid.

      “Homosexual agenda”

      Equal treatment. Point invalid.

      “Pro homosexual Scouting forces”

      Pro equality, For homosexuals and heterosexuals, they are equal. Point invalid.

      I do wish that guy would not have worn his uniform in that fashion.

    • #26259 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      Steve, you’re smarter than that and I’m not as stupid as you seem to think I am. Those children were used to advance a pro-homosexual agenda and they are too young to even understand what they were being used to promote. Homosexuality is not something to encourage young people to experience. But we can argue this all day (and we have). I think the individual who had the very last “word” was the man in the shorts and cut up shirt. You can call me a bigot, call me discriminatory, call me anything you want (I’ll bet you’ll never call me a brother Scout, though) but that photograph is all most parents need to see to understand what this whole issue is about. And I’m sure National will not call that man out for misusing the BSA uniform. They can’t risk angering the corporations and having them withhold their funding again. Make any point you want to make, contradict anything I’ve written, unilaterally declare any of my statements invalid; it no longer matters. That one photo says more than I could write in a hundred thousand words.

    • #26260 Reply


      That man in the cut-off shirt was not a member of our marching color guard or honor guard. He might have picked up his uniform at a thrift shop – who knows? He said he was a Scout when he was 12, but he didn’t have his badges on the right place at all, and he even asked us how to make a proper salute. He wore his uniform like a costume, in contrast to the rest of us.

      All that said … he was also very polite, friendly, courteous, and I wasn’t going to ask him to leave.

      Our NYTimes article pointed out that the Boy Scouts were sharply dressed in uniform amidst the scantily clad, and that highlighted our professional image.


      Our participation in the event was a service to LGBT who need to know that there are individuals in bigoted institutions that care for them. So many men came up to us and said that they were cubs or boy scouts in their younger days.

      As for the younger kids? No, I promise they were not to there to advance a pro-homosexual agenda. They were not “used” at all. They came with their families, because Scouting — gay or straight — is a family-oriented program.

      We had a really emotional day, and I remain so, so proud of our service. The cheers for the Scouts were deafening!!

    • #26262 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      Crystal, you called Scouting a “bigoted institution”. If that is how you feel, why are you still a member? Does that not, by extension, make you a bigot too? Why did you join in the first place? Your hypocrisy is manifest. Why not really make a statement and resign? Go join SpiralScouts, who accept anyone and everyone. Why are you working to destroy BSA from within?

      I suspect the cheers you heard weren’t for the Scouting program itself, but for those individuals who want to remove “morally straight” from the Scout Oath. I wonder if you’d have had the same reception had you not been marching with rainbow flags. (The symbol of God’s covenant appropriated by people living in direct opposition to Scripture.)

      Fortunately there were reporters from foreign press at the parade, uh, march. Anything printed in the media here is a paean to the homosexual lifestyle. That one photo says more than anyone could write in several volumes. Birds of a feather, as it were. You could not have made a better case for the old membership standards if you had set out to do so. Thank you very much.

    • #26264 Reply

      Steve Parker


      I think most would see that the man with the incorrect uniform, as Crystal said, was using that as a costume. Like I said, I wouldn’t do it, but if that is how he wanted to dress, so be it.

      Should I call you a brother scout? OK, Yesterdays scout is a brother scout to me. I don’t know you other than what you have written here. You might be a really great guy, we just disagree a lot. I believe that people are born the way they are, and that is OK, and they should be treated fairly and equally. I don’t see gay people as a threat anymore than someone that is straight. Children are not “turned” gay, they either are or are not. Raising them to accept everyone equally is a good thing, raising them to believe that some people are worth less because they are different is not a good thing.

      A Scout is a friend to all.

    • #26298 Reply

      Yesterday’s Scout

      “Worth less” is a matter of opinion and I don’t put monetary values on people. Raising children according to the teachings of the Church is a good thing. National has staked the future of Scouting on the belief that people like you will eventually outnumber people like me. Within a very short period of time Scouting went from “the Scout Oath and Law are inviolable” to the current situation. And I will never believe that the decision was made for any reason other than money. In a different thread it was made clear that the BSA is going to market toward young mothers; maybe the boys’ fathers are no longer in the picture or never were. Who knows? A Scout is friendly, true, but one must be careful with whom one associates. Behavior and morality are subject to change with constant exposure to good or bad influences. This is my last response to you, you get the final word (on this thread, anyway). Obviously we were raised to believe different things, we have a different concept of morality, of parenthood, and indeed, of Scouting. Your grudging acknowledgment of Scouting brotherhood, when compared with your free use of words like bigot and discriminatory, shows the gulf between us and I suspect we two are representative of the two “sides” to which Dr. Gates referred. He does not need to “reopen” the debate; time is on his side and he knows it.

      May you have a long and successful journey in Scouting. I hope yours is as fulfilling and personally significant as was mine.

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