Boy Scouts of America to reconsider national membership policy

Update (Jan. 31): The BSA has provided this page for leaving feedback about the membership policy. Alternatively, you can email

Update (Feb. 5): Thanks to everyone for their valuable feedback. After more than 2,100 comments in the past week, I’ve determined that it’s time to close the comment thread on this post.

The Boy Scouts of America is discussing whether to remove the national membership restriction regarding sexual orientation, the organization announced today.

If approved, the move would end any national policy regarding sexual orientation of members and hand the responsibility of accepting members and selecting leaders to chartered organizations. Chartered organizations could then handle this task in accordance with their mission, principles, and/or religious beliefs.

The news was announced in an email sent by Chief Scout Executive Wayne Brock to all National Council employees this afternoon and confirmed through a media statement posted to

“Let me be clear that the change under discussion would allow chartered organizations to determine how to address this issue,” Brock writes. “The Boy Scouts would not, under any circumstances, dictate a position to units, members, or parents. Under this proposed policy, the BSA would not require any chartered organization to act in ways inconsistent with that organization’s mission, principles, or religious beliefs.”

Discussion on the proposed policy change will continue during the National Executive Board meeting in Texas next week.

If the board takes action related to the membership policy, Brock says, it will be promptly communicated to all professionals and volunteers.

And I’ll post the news here on Bryan on Scouting, as well.

About Bryan Wendell 3282 Articles
Bryan Wendell, an Eagle Scout, is the founder of Bryan on Scouting and a contributing writer.


    • Any policy change will irreparably damage the BSA.

      SCOTUS found that (after looking at all of the facts and BSA documents/positions/statements) the “mission statement of the BSA is to “instill values in young people”, and a Scout vows to keep one’s self “physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.” See, BSA v. Dale, 530 US 640 (2000). Further, the US Supreme Court also found that ”homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the values of the Scout oath and law and particularly the terms “morally straight” and “clean” and that the Mike Milo, you are correct about the need to protect and defend the timeless values of Scouting. The BSA does not want to promote homosexual conduct as a legitimate form of behavior.” See, BSA v. Dale, 530 US 640. (2000). The Court clearly recognized and upheld the BSA’s right to oppose or disfavor homosexual conduct.

      The proposed policy change will destroy the legal underpinnings that resulted in the BSA being able to successfully protect and defend its expressive association message, and charter organizations that prohibit practicing homosexuals will be sued. Our BSA program, and our values will be lost.

      The National Board is on notice of the irreparable damage that it will inflict on Scouting and its timeless values if it takes hasty and reckless action nest week. It is advised to govern its actions accordingly!

      Further, we call on all members of the Board who are reading these posts and who are honest of heart to do the right thing and call for a DELAY ON ANY ACTION until we can get some transparency in this process. This will only serve to make Scouting stronger! Millions of eligible class members who (are part of US Scouting and have nothing to do with other scouting groups) have donated time and money based on the timeless values of Scouting in the US, will be part of the lawsuits that will be filed immediately if wrong action is taken by BSA National. We are aware of the foul play going on, improper influence by outside groups and and the reason behind the rush to change the policy before rational voices from adult member volunteers can be considered (see posts on this site and do your research). We are wide awake to the dangers and implications of what is going on, and we WILL NOT be moved! Are you listening National Board!

    • not backing down to the media. responding to public opinion. there’s a large difference. this will be a welcome change.

      • In the liberal opinion only. I will not compromise my religious beliefs to accommodate a mental illness!

        New International Version (NIV)
        13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

      • Your religious beliefs are themselves considered to be a mental illness. I assume by the hatred you are spewing that you identify yourself as a christian. Your outdated morality derived from bestselling fiction is little more than institutionalized stupidity.

      • Wow you are an ignorant idiot. You don’t like that someone has differing views and then you mock and put down her religion? I’m guessing that if you are a Scouter and not just a troll that you are probably an atheist and thus got in be lying and deceit.

        It’s intolerant bigoted people like you that are hurting this issue by just angering everyone with your obvious hate of Christians.

      • Yeah. I think that I need to get some much needed sleep tonight so that I can see how many enemies I have made in the past 24 hours.

      • They are not asking you too – if your chartered organization is ok with an open policy then you can always move to a unit that has a restrictive policy.

        This stance satisfies all involved and allows inclusion of boys and young men that might need the program very badly.

        Everyone needs to remember this program is for the boys – not us and our personal belief system

      • Jennifer, you are sick to the head if you things gays should be put to death. Time to grow up. WWJD. Ready a book, or more, on science and biology. Life isn’t so black and white. What ever happened to Jesus, btw? You know, the one who helped those scorned by society?

      • No one is saying you need to change your beliefs.

        So do you take everything the old testament says as literal? Everything?

      • Really!? Put to Death!? And you think that’s a better thing to tell your 7 year old Cub Scout rather than to accept people for who they are? People like you should be banned from Scouts!!!

      • I am faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from being liberal. Very very far. But the current policy punishes teenage boys who are being denied awards they have earned if they are gay, and I’m not ok with that.

        And I’d really like to see an Aramaic version of that with a new translation, not something the Catholic Church has had 1600+ years to mis-translate, alter, and just plain mis-transcribe, when they aren’t totally removing what they don’t like. Because it doesn’t really matter what denomination you are now, they are ALL descended (except the Coptic Church and I believe the Nigerian church) from the Catholic Church and all the doctrinal decisions they made 1600 years ago.

      • i absolutely agree that awards should not be withheld from boys that are gay. i also believe that the strong values taught in boy scouts are something that should not be denied to boys that are gay. these are often boys who are in great need of a place to belong. there is a very high suicide rate among gay teenagers because of this. opening boy scouts to gay teenagers honestly could help save lives.

      • homosexuality is not a mental illness. no one is asking you to compromise your religious beliefs. you may be confused about the proposed policy change. it says that they will remove the nation ban on homosexuals in scouting. it doesn’t say you have to be gay to be in scouts. hope that clears it up for you.

      • it is absolutely not a minority. across the country, public opinion supports equal rights for LGBT individuals.

      • Stehlo you have shown a lot of hatred towards people’s religious beliefs so by your statement you don’t have moral fiber?

      • Straight people produce gay people every day, PapaEagle. Its called biology. I wish Scouting taught you some better character and moral fiber.

      • Being straight isn’t moral fiber. Plenty of terrible straight people.

        YPT is in place for a reason.

      • And just as plenty terrible gay people. Being bad, evil, etc crosses gender orientation boundaries.

      • Change is, in and of itself, neutral–neither necessarily good or necessarily bad. It should not be arbitrarily embraced.

    • Rev. Shaner, the fight is not over and we need you to stand up and speak up now and see the posts regarding petitions to keep the current BSA Policy. We are aware of the foul play going on, improper influence by outside groups and and the reason behind the rush to change the policy before rational voices from adult member volunteers can be considered (see posts on this site and do your research). We are wide awake to the dangers and implications of what is going on, and we WILL NOT be moved! Are you listening National Board! See the link showing improper efforts by Glaad to destroy Scouting….

  1. This is wonderful news! It truly is time that these outdated and harmful policies become a thing of the past. I hope the BSA makes the right decision and removes the membership policies of discrimination.

    • And how have these policies hurt you? How has it hurt others when there other Scouting organizations that were formed to welcome and support gay youth.

      I’m sure they appreciate all the time and money you’ve been supporting them with.

  2. I agree with Mark! It is about time!! We can concentrate on all of the great benefits of Scouting!!

    • Erin they National Board ‘reaffirmed’ the policy of not allowing gays to serve last summer, however they stated today that in a couple of weeks the Executive Board would vote on this policy shift. Hope that helps.

  3. This is so sad. My boys have enjoyed scouting so much, and if this policy is passed, we would have no choice but to remove them from scouts immediately..

    • I find it sad you would remove them from scouts because national allowed the charters to decide what was best for their unit(s). You can choose to stay with a charter that agrees with your beliefs. This decision does not force change.

      • I see. So, when I take my children to camps with multiple packs, how am I supposed to know which packs allow homosexual leaders and which don’t? They are talking about becoming identical to the Girl Scouts, who repudiated their Christian roots long ago. I will not be party to my children being part of that kind of organization.

      • How do you know what sexual practices anyone does behind closed doors? Maybe we should have all the leaders fill out a survey describing what they enjoy doing with their partners, male or female, and judge what is appropriate for the scouts. We want to keep our sons safe after all.

        None of what anyone does with his/her sexual partner has anything to do with one’s ability to be a good, moral leader.

      • THat is exactly the point. If you keep your bedroom habits to yourself, scouting is a positive influence. Nobody knows the sexual orientation of my son and its not the business of anyone. Unfortunately the gay community wants “special rights”. That includes not just being a scout but shouting to the world that they are “gay scouts”. Sorry do not agree if the decision is yes.

      • Nobody’s looking for special rights here, that’s not what this policy shift is saying. read it again. Instead of a full out ban, it allows chartered partners to make the exclusion or not. simple and easy. Why is it special rights if it’s the same rights that you have?

      • a boy should not have to deny an aspect of who he is in order to belong to any group. boys who are gay are often bullied. they are often ridiculed. they are often depressed and more likely to commit suicide. (whether they are out or not). scouts is an organization that i feel would be a perfect route to give these individuals a safe place to ‘belong’ and feel included, no matter who they are. it could literally help save lives to allow gay boys to be scouts.

        as for adult leaders… i suppose that most people might know you are straight if you have a wife. if you had a husband, though, they might know you are gay. so it isn’t about discussing your bedroom habits. it’s about your family. you don’t have to wear a sign saying you’re gay for people to know that you’re gay.

      • Christian? You mean the kind that try to be like Jesus and reach out to those scorned by society? Or the kind that embrace the Old Testament and want to strike down and kill those that disagree with you?

        Seems to me like you need to get to know some gay people, Rob. Since you imply that being gay makes you want to molest little boys, I can only assume then that since you’re straight that you want to molest little girls?

        I will only take my daughters to gay camp then and I’ll take my sons to a lesbian camp.. I mean, is there another way to protect our kids but keep away adults who attracted to their sex?

        Get a life.

      • How did you know before this announcement? Show me on the application where you have to check a box stating you are homosexual.

      • We have it on our form when they join Boy and Cub scouts, they really know this when they are small kids. Therefore there is no chance that we’d ever have a closeted scout or leader in our council ! But then I guess it might not matter, at least with the leaders, since they are never to be one-on-one with a youth. And as far as closeted youth interacting with any of our clearly straight scouts outside of scouting, they know who the open or closeted gay kids are anyway and beat them up regularly (or is it the other way around?)

      • Last time a checked, Scouting was a multi-religious organization. Just because LBP was a Christian and structured Scouting around those values does not make Scouting a Christian organization. Many would do well to remember this.

      • It absolutely does. We are no longer united under a common set of beliefs. Chartered organizations can make their own rules. What’s next, let Packs and Troops pick their own uniforms?

    • you could always still have your sons involved with a chartered org that continues to discriminate.

      • Actually, the Boy Scouts don’t discriminate. They apply the same policy to everyone. Anyone that is a homosexual can’t be a leader. Given the last 50 years of young men being assaulted in these situations, I think it makes a lot of sense. Penn State? Some Catholic priests? Public Schools? 85% of those cases involve boys 14 and older. That’s not pedophilia, no matter what the media says.

      • Those tragic events of abuse were largely enacted by individuals who were not gay. You are making generalities and blanket assumptions to fit your case. I have read the opened files. These were largely married men with families of their own. Not homosexuals.

      • Rob, I’m going to keep my daughters away from you since you are attracted to girls and might molest them.

      • Actually a homosexual could be a leader. Even an open homosexual as long as no one reported or complained. Do you do a background check on every single male leader you meet to find out if he is homosexual?
        You’d be surprised at that amount of active homosexual in scouting.

      • well Rob actually the BSA does discriminate and won a court case that says that we can discriminate if we want to.

      • Penn State: married man. Catholic priests: confirmed straight bachelors, most of them. Public schools: nearly all straight men. All of these things would have been avoided under two-deep leadership. I am glad for a policy change that truly allows COs to choose their leaders. And I don’t expect any more lawsuits than churches had seen before for discriminating.

      • penn state? really? jerry sandusky is married with kids. his wife adamantly denies his guilt.

        you clearly don’t understand what discrimination is, though.

      • I categorically condemn Jerry Sandusky’s actions. Remember that thing earlier today where we had common ground in agreeing that pedophilia was vile? And you’ve really been accusing ME of trolling? Come on!

      • Why is following one’s religion that forbids a way of life, discrimination? That reasoning is no reason at all if the way I choose to live my life in accordance with religious tenants, I am told that I must change my religion. I do discriminate against many types of behavior according to my religion. I discriminate against sinners but in accordance with my religion, I love the sinner but hate the sin. But you can’t make me a sinner because you feel that I am not treating sinners fairly.

      • The definition of discrimination is “treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit:” from

      • go ahead and follow your religion that forbids a way of life. that is not discrimination. where discrimination comes into play is when you ask someone else to follow your religion. they get to follow their own religion and way of life. see the difference?

      • See you aren’t going to be happy until you force your gay agenda down everyone’s throats. You’ll be the person who tracks down what each units position is on the issue and gets it to the activists. You don’t want units to choose you want it all your way. You’ll be the person that causes problems and fighting at roundtables. You will just keep nipping at every one like a rabid chihuahua insulting and labeling units that choose to stay traditional, undermining them at every shot.

        You are a complete and utter intolerant bigot. I wouldn’t doubt that you push your agenda and ideology everywhere including near youth.

        Very sad.

      • Pot? Kettle? You accuse me of something that you are doing yourself.

        You also continue to misrepresent everything I have said. I do think it is a good solution to allow individual COs and units choose what is best for them. If another unit decided that it did not want to be inclusive, it wouldn’t be any of my business. If the unit I belong to didn’t want to be inclusive, I would be free to find another unit. Do you recall the post where I explicitly stated that I did NOT tell a youth my beliefs because it’s not my place to influence him on what aspects of sexuality are or are not right? I believe that to be up to his mother. His father. His church.

      • Oh. Nice. Ok. I’m not having you criticize my parenting skills, be on the receiving end of your vitriol, and have someone say that my son and I must both be gay for having the audacity to stand up for the rights of others. You have said that you don’t really care about if there are gays in scouting, it’s really just about Youth Protection. You won’t accept what I say at face value. There is no reason to continue to do this. I am done. Have a lovely day. I truly hope your son’s head injury resolves without issue. My best to you.

    • This is so sad. Your boys have enjoyed scouting so much, and if this policy is passed, they will have no choice but to be removed from scouts by your own selfish desire and at great cost to their needs of Scouting.

      • He referred to the parents “selfish desire and great cost to their needs of Scouting”.

        You could have just scrolled up a bit and seen that.

        So it appears that today’s game plan from the supporters of the changes include mocking peoples religions and criticizing parenting?

        I think that would say a lot about your own parenting skills.

      • Funny Jo cause I thought that was Rhett agenda of those who are apposed. After all they keep using inflammatory language, and accusing those who do not share their dogma of following false gods. None of that is very scout like.

  4. What a huge disappointment! The BSA is taking the cowards way out and leaving it to the local charters.

    • You’re calling the organization that took this to the supreme court cowards? So why do you think they made their argument in front of the justices for?

    • It is not a done deal yet. There were almost identical rumblings about six months ago, until an anonymous national BSA council met in secret and put an end to the speculation. I’ll believe it when I see it.

      • I think this is way different. Last time it was speculation on the part of some bloggers and reporters on activities at the National Meeting by some trying to get the National Board to change policy, this time it was a member of the National BSA reporting to the press (AP and NBC) about the upcoming policy revision and vote to make it so. This is the real deal.

      • i agree. i don’t think they would have made a statement about it at all if they didn’t believe there is a real possibility of changing it. they got quite a bit of negative attention over the summer regarding this policy. why stir that up again if the old policy is just to be upheld?

      • Actually, when the National Executive Board made the decision last year it was not unanimous at all. There was some fervent dissent by some.

  5. FANTASTIC!! As a district advancement chair, I don’t ever want to focus on sexual preference EVER during and Eagle board of review!!! these young men work far to hard to earn such a prestigious title, this is a step in the right direction.

    • I just got REALLY angry at some people on FB who kept naddering on about it and ignoring my point that BOYS ARE BEING KEPT FROM GETTING AWARDS THEY EARNED!!!! I understand concerns about adults (I don’t share them – being gay doesn’t make you a pedophile, and it shouldn’t be an issue if YPT is followed faithfully), but I absolutely think it should be made clear that it doesn’t apply to boys.

  6. As someone who has decided to end my official ties to the organization because of the current policy, this could not happen soon enough for me. Should this change happen, I will call my local council that day to re-join.

    • Yes, I think it is incumbent upon all of us who have intentionally left Scouting over this policy, to now support BSA with the same energy if BSA has a change of heart. BSA is responding to the will of Scouts and their families, we should fully support BSA if they follow through with this response.

  7. I am disappointed that this change is being considered. Any God fearing person knows that this goes against God’s word. We are to love and pray for the lost but not to go against the word of God. Scouts have a duty to God and this goes against it.

    • I don’t agree! I am a Christian. My denomination (and many others) do not subscribe to the idea that being gay goes against God’s word. In fact, one of the pastor’s in my congregation is gay. Being gay is not against the word of god, and certainly doesn’t stop one from doing his duty to God.

      • Have you ever read you bible? I am always amazed at the people that say that it does not go against scripture in the Old and New Testament Leviticus 20:13 If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act. Romans 1:26-27 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions ; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural , 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 1 Cor 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived ; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Maybe if more pastors would preach the whole council of God we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Study God’s word, don’t fall to the council of man.

      • And you aren’t supposed to eat pork, or have sex when the woman has her period, or lots of other things that probably made sense 2,000 years ago but not so much today. And there are TONS of things where the Bible gives conflicting advice.

        More to the point, are you a follower of Christ – who believed in second chances, didn’t condemn others, and never preached anything about homosexuality – or are you an Orthodox Jew following the OLD Testament exclusively?

      • so you don’t think slavery is a problem then? do you wear any clothing that is a cotton/poly blend? are you entirely without sin? should we kick divorced people out of scouts? i’m a single mom… should i be kicked out? so you see homosexuality as a sin. who decides which sins deem you unworthy to be a boy scout?

      • Lol. You are not a Christ Follower!!!!!! How dare you cite Leviticus.

        Leviticus 20:9 – Anyone who dishonors father or mother must be put to death (NLT).

        Leviticus 25:44 – Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you buy slaves. (NIV)

        For fun, how about Exodus 35:2 – The seventh day must be a Sabbath day of complete rest, a holy day dedicated to the Lord. Anyone who works on that day must be put to death. (NLT)

        You are a hypocrite if you’ve never followed the other passages of Leviticus but choose to spew the one about gays. You choose from the Bible what is convenient to you? You’re all fire and brimstone without any love that Christ showed people. You fear what you do not understand, and you do not understand science or biology, I fear. Yes, I fear you then, for Lord knows what hate you teach young people.

      • Wow, you’re a God fearing Christian? I feel bad for you. I would hate to subscribe to a religion based out of fear… I am a Christian and my God is a god of love.

  8. This truly is the beginning of the end for Scouting. Let’s just think about it for a minute. For those units with a Judeo Christian backbone that decide not to allow this to happen, how do they decide to attend District, Council, Area, or National functions. This just is not going to work. Let NAMBLA create their own youth program. I am sure the BSA will not interfere. Discussion of any kind of sexual behavior has no place in Scouting. As a volunteer, if this passes I am out.

    • LGBT is absolutely not synonymous with NAMBLA. the implication you make is rediculous. you’re absolutely correct though that discussion of any kind of sexual behavior doesn’t belong in scouting. LGBT individuals aren’t asking to come in and talk about being gay. they’re just asking to be allowed to exist.

      • Beth, I agree! Implying that gay male adults want to molest little boys is akin to saying that straight male adults want to molest little girls.

    • There are Judeo Christian religious organizations that have homosexual leaders. Even the Catholic church welcomes gays…although it doesn’t condone homosexual acts. Kids are born homosexual, just like some are born heterosexual. Heck, some people are born transgendered…with male and female anatomy, or something inbetween. Learn some science. Religion doesn’t need to close its eyes to science

    • “Discussion of any kind of sexual behavior has no place in Scouting”

      I absolutely agree with this!!! Which is why I think the policy should be open to all. As long as someone (anyone!) passes a background check, understands and upholds youth protection, and follows the Scout way – what difference does it make?!! I can tell you personally, it DOES NOT!!! I do not talk about my personal life in Scouting, and neither do others I work with. It’s a non-issue. As a trained leader, I don’t see this effecting our job to teach this boys about Scouting

    • “Discussion of any kind of sexual behavior has no place in Scouting” well that was said well, and you’re right it has no place. I know for a fact that there’s no place on the application that asks for sexual orientation, or any other questions about sexuality. There’s no discussion in the scout handbook about sexuality other than in the Youth Protection guide in the front, and there’s no section about discussing sexuality in the Scoutmaster’s handbook or other scouting literature. Let’s face it, the sexual orientation of a scout or leader isn’t anyone’s business. It’s not about that. It’s about inclusion and exclusion, period.

  9. About time! Lets open our minds up! We can still protect kids from pedophiles, there is a big difference between that and sexual orientation!

  10. I am getting tired of groups giving in to pressure on things that have always been important to them. As a scout leader and Mom of an Eagle Scout, I have always pushed the boys to stand up against bullies and peer pressure rather than giving in on things they feel strongly about. To have the BSA give in on something they have always felt strongly about makes me very sad and will make it that much harder to teach this to the boys when even the BSA wouldn’t do so. I don’t see this as something that means they are moving into the future, nor something that is about one side versus another in this argument. Rather I see it as the BSA giving in to pressure and moving towards what is now the “accepted norm” no matter what they have always believed and taught. There are many things that BSA stands for that make people unhappy, but this is big news these days so of course all of the pressure is on this point. I am beyond sad to see them give in on anything they have stood for.

    • Sooo, you’re teaching your kids to stand up to gay kids? Ask yourself, when did you choose to be straight? Or did you just find yourself that way when going through puberty? Why do think its different for homosexual teens? Its like you want to deny science…or your own body. I bet you didn’t know that some people are born with both sets of sexual anatomy. Did you? Sooo, are they male or female? Even better, can you guess their sexual orientation? You need to stop being pressued by bigots that being gay is a choice

      • The truth hurts your brain, I guess?
        Here’s some education so that you can resolve some of your stupidity:

        Intersex, in humans (not to be confused with hermaphroditism), is a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, and/or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as female/male sex binary. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX female. As with all humans, gender identity for intersex individuals may often be complicated. Some individuals may be raised as a certain gender but then identify with another later in life, while others may not identify themselves as either exclusively female or exclusively male. Some may opt for surgical procedures in order to align their physical sex characteristics with their socially prescribed gender, and some will not even become aware that they are intersex—unless they receive genetic testing—because it does not manifest in their phenotype. Research has shown gender identity of intersex individuals to be independent of sexual orientation.

      • He’s really obsessed with his “intersex” and “hermaphrodites” arguments. Such a tiny fraction of the population. How many want to be in Scouts? A fraction of that fraction. Not statistically significant.

      • Beth I must admit you are a determined spokeman and I love your grit. I just wish you were on the side of Timeless Values and the Values the Boy Scout never left. On another of your postings you stated that the LGBT members needed recognition from people. Beth here is how I get recognition I pray to Heavenly Father that I live according to the will of someone who loves me personally Jesus Christ. Beth this is all the recognition I need it gives me great comfort and joy. I do not oppose the homosexual because of hate, bigortry or discrimination I oppose it because God opposes it. I oppose it because most of my fellow man opposes it. I oppose it because most Scouters oppose it. I will not know more now than when I stand at the bar of Jehovah that Homosexuality is a sin. If a person doesn’t believe in God these comments are of no use to them. But if you believe that God exists then you must believe that God is the judge of all living. If a person believes in God he must believe he has prepared a way for his children to return to his presence by obeying his commandments. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • Nathan – please keep this conversation civil. You won’t get anyone to see your point by calling them stupid. Listening to each other, and sharing carefully written, thoughtful comments, goes a long way to helping others broaden their understanding of the details and complexities of the issue, which is the best way to help the BSA stay strong.

    • So what would you say to a teenage boy who is denied the Eagle he has spent years earning but now cannot receive because he has realized he is gay?

  11. This is a wise way to allow units to make their own decisions. Many church affiliated units would have a real issue with a change to the policy, while other units will not. If passed, ALL will potentially have access to the benefits of being a part of the Boy Scouts of America. I am delighted and relieved.

    • The fractured remains of a great organization that gave in to outside pressure, internally divided for years by fights between traditional units and the “inclusive” unit who continues to bash the traditional units.

      The BSA will be around for a long time but it will never be the same.

  12. Keep sex out of Scouts! And so it begins, hopefully the scouting program will maintain it’s position and protect our children’s innocence. If your gay, great why advertise? I’m straight, I do not need a bumper sticker, or parade. How you live your life is your business. Don’t use Scouts and a launch pad to promote your sexual belief, I certainly don’t.

    • This isn’t a matter of promoting sexual beliefs of the connotation that you have to agree with sexual activity. The last time I checked, discussion of any sex outside of biological or health and wellness terms was minimized by the BSA.
      It’s a matter of allowing people, of the same character, to participate on equal level within Scouting REGARDLESS of sexual orientation.

    • no one is asking to bring sex into scouts. the thing is, there are gay families. they just exist, like any other family. as the current policy stands, they are not permitted in scouts. if a gay person would like to join scouts and participate as a leader, it is pretty evident that they are gay just by looking at the composition of his or her family. they may not have a bumper sticker. they just have a same sex partner. all LGBT individuals are asking for is the right to exist within the scouting movement.

    • Problem is, as it stands, it’s hurting teenage boys who come out as gay and then cannot be given the awards they have earned.

  13. The “local choice” idea seems problematic, from a legal point of view. Until now, troops have been able to legally exclude gays because BAS had a national policy opposed to homosexuality. Take away the national policy opposed to homosexuality, and each troop or chartering organization will be left on their own to explain how the presence of gays interferes with their first amendment rights.

    This may not be a problem for a troop chartered by a large church that has clear ant-gay teachings, and the resources to present their position in court. But for almost all other troops, the removal of a national policy anti-gay means that they will have no legal basis to exclude gays.

    The local choice option means that almost all troops will be required to welcome gays.

    • Yeah National is going to duck and let all of the units and chartered organizations take the heat.

      No good is going to come of this. This is going to be a PR nightmare for the BSA. Most people don’t understand the concept of chartered organizations so all these local battles will be looked at as comimg from the BSA itself.

    • Actually, national currently defends 100% of its organizations for its discrimination. Now it will only have to defend like 75% of them. National will fight for the right of the organization to choose. The best part is, scout units are part of the organization, not the boy scouts, so unless someone can sue the LDS for not letting them be a member because they’re gay, they can’t really touch the scouts.

      • Yes, but BSA’s argument in court until now has been that troops can exclude gays because BSA holds, as a core message, nationwide, that homosexuality is immoral, and that having gay members interferes with that message. If BSA now allows gays in 25% of the troops, they are saying that BSA no longer holds a core message that homosexuality is immoral, so the 75% of troops that want to keep gays out will have to rely on the free speech rights of their chartering organization, or of their own troop, to legally exclude gays.

        By allowing gays into some troops, BSA is essentially saying that BSA no longer hold a core message that condemns homosexuality on the national level. This core message will now have to come from the troop or chartering organization for a troop to continue legally excluding gays.

  14. I am so glad! I hope they change their policy. I feel like such a hypocrite saying in one breath how much I love scouts & how wonderful it is for my boys, yet scouting is so discriminatory in this way. We use scouting to help raise our children, but at home we teach tolerance and inclusion. I want to feel we can be inclusive at scouts as well.

      • What about intolerance of immoral beliefs? For example (and please, don’t make this statement what it isn’t–it’s only an extreme example to illustrate a foundational principle), what about the Nazi’s treatment of Jews? There were some who believed that such actions were morally justified. Should that belief be tolerated? Would it be if it were the one being discussed right now?
        Please note, however, that condemnation of an opinion is not the same as condemnation of, or even disrespect towards, the individual holding the opinion.

      • I think I understand what you are trying to say. I will try to explain my position. I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, beliefs and values. I also believe that those beliefs, opinions and values should never be forced upon someone else. My actions and beliefs should never cross someone else’s line and so on. It does sometimes make it difficult when two people have such differing beliefs, but as long as each is allowed to believe or act the way they want without invading someone else’s mental, physical or emotional space there should be no problem. As soon as someone crosses another persons space/rights without permission, it becomes unacceptable. I hope that came out in a way that makes sense.

      • But don’t you see that either way this case goes some people are going to have a contradictory moral view forced upon them? Either those for homosexuality will be faced with an organization that does not permit their opinions to be acted upon, or those who are against homosexuality will be forced to accept a situation that their moral beliefs do not permit them to accept. I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t believe it’s something that can be practically applied.

      • I understand what you are saying, but by discriminating against someone for their sexuality is not much different than discriminating against someone of another religion.

      • the difference here is that people who are gay are currently not permitted in scouts. if the new policy is approved, they will be permitted. that’s all. it won’t force all people in scouts to be gay. do you see the difference? between forcing someone to live by your standards and allowing someone to live by their own standards?

      • Not to sound inflammatory here, but tolerance is not a virtue. It is a reaction. An individual can tolerate good things, neutral things or bad things. Simply tolerating does not make one virtuous; what one is tolerating does–or does not.

      • I do agree that “live and let live” is a good policy in personal life. But at the same time, “Blessed is he who does not condemn himself by what he approves.”

    • To further my point: whose beliefs do you teach your children to tolerate? Those who believe that it is good to allow homosexuality in the BSA, or those who believe that it is bad?
      Those are morally exclusive positions and, logically speaking, can not both be true (although they can, logically, both be false). It’s one thing to tolerate other people, and the fact that other people can have their own opinions, but tolerating immoral opinions is in a different league altogether.

  15. This is sad. The BSA is considering turning its back on the people who have supported and defended them all these years? Turning around and leaving small chartered organizations in the wind defenseless?

    This will not be a good thing. This is not a minor change, this is a monumental change in philosophy. There are so many youth and adult protection issues that will come up, so much legal exposure.

    By the way, I’d have the same concerns if the BSA lifted the rule on males & females sleeping & bathing separately.

    • I agree completely. I know from personal experience that there are thousands of girls and young women abandoning the Girl Scouts for the BSA’s Venturing program or for groups like the American Heritage Girls (a noble organization, by the way) because of moral issues similar to this. But if the BSA falls, where is there to turn to?

  16. It really is about time for this to happen!! As an Eagle Scout and a life-long member and volunteer, I am so happy the BSA is finally doing the right thing and removing this stupid policy.

  17. I am shocked that the traditions of the Boy Scouts would cave to the secular minority and the media to go against their longstanding moral and ethical values, that is what separates us from the rest of the population, our morals and faith based values that we try to instill in our youth. It started in the schools with the removal of prayer and has gone downhill from there.

  18. Just because something is old doesn’t mean it’s bad. BSA was founded on being morally straight or for all you PC people…morally CORRECT! Check the Bible…it is wrong! I won’t have my child exposed to this!

    • ‘Straight’ is a term that was developed in the 1950s to refer to people who weren’t homosexuals – by homosexuals. Stop reading into what ‘morally straight’ means using today’s lexicon and review it for what it meant. It meant being able to make sound and moral decisions. Do I or don’t I steal from my friend? Do I or don’t I cheat on a test? It had nothing to do with sexuality then, and it has nothing to do with it now.

    • oh yeah, cuz ‘straight’ has always meant ‘heterosexual? Gimme a break. Seriously. How about morally straight meaning don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t cheat, and don’t be a bigot.

      WWJD? Throw rocks at gay people? Chase them up trees? Shun them? hahahahaha. You haven’t really read the bible, huh?

      • Don’t give me the WWJD line. STRAIGHT from the Bible here it is:

        New International Version (NIV)
        13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads

      • Jennifer

        You really need to stop quoting the NIV, created in 1965 not really a sound refrence and very controversial.

      • The word of God does not change. Leviticus 20:13 – If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. KJV

      • “The Word of God does not change.”

        You are funny. It’s changed quite a bit. A TON of books were deemed heretical and destroyed by the church – they just didn’t like them. That was a big change. The church taught that Mary never had children other than Jesus, until someone notice mention of his brother James in the Bible. The birth stories themselves differ in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

        Have you ever noticed how little of the New Testament is actually Jesus’ words? Not too much. It’s written by other people. And lots of errors have been found and corrected over the years.

      • You can’t pick and choose what you want to be valid from Leviticus Jennifer. I doubt you would enjoy the life as what is literally prescribed there.

      • Trust stehlo he hates and despises Christians and Christianity so that makes him an expert on your doctrine.

      • leviticus bans a lot of things. do you wear fabric that is a blend of cotton and polyester? do you eat shellfish? do you think slavery is permissible? has a man ever touched you while you were on your period?

      • perfect! There are many Jewish laws in the Torah that God abiding Christians ( and Jews ) do not follow.

      • Leviticus 20:9 – Anyone who dishonors father or mother must be put to death (NLT).

        I bet you scream in horror and shed tears when Muslims do ‘honor killings’….but according to you, they’re just following the Bible (albeit better than you!).

      • Ruckad,

        She should quote the NASB which is a more correct translation of the Hebrew and Greek Leviticus 20:13 If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act. Romans 1:26-27 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions ; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural , and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 1 Cor 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived ; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

      • Thank you for that translation. I notice that death and killing are not mentioned.

        At that time, I can see having a big problem with homosexuality from a simple continuing-the-race POV. They needed all the genetic diversity they could get and lots of babies died young until the last century or so, making procreation REALLY important. Those issues are totally not an issue any more. We have enough people procreating!

      • Here you go Jennifer, Straight from the bible:
        1 Timothy 2:12
        New International Version (NIV)
        12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet

      • Jesus said he came to uphold the law, to the last letter. He told the adulterous woman that her sins were forgiven and to go and SIN NO MORE.

  19. Do NOT bow down to pressures from “politically correct” leftist media. Please stand strong to the morals on which BSA was founded and stood strong with for over 100 years. Just because some very vocal people loudly express an opinion does not make it right, nor does it represent the majority. If you change the policy, you may please a few, but at the risk of losing most.

  20. This stinks
    Sounds like giving up on scouting beliefs and standards
    Would be a big disapointment

  21. I guess the bsa lost its backbone; We will have to change our oath so why dont we just disband the bsa; If a majority threaten to shut down our troops and packs the bsa will bend; we ALL KNOW that the National BSA is only interested in how much MONEY THEY CAN MAKE

    • Should the worst come of this, it will also show that they’re very interested in avoiding the continuing criticism coming from fringe radical groups and the secular media. A Scout is brave. Don’t back down!

      • a scout is brave. stand up to a discriminatory policy that excludes people because of who they naturally are.

      • A Scout is Obedient.
        If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them.

      • So then leaders and Scouts, according to you, who were gay but yet knowingly took positions and awards should have worked at changing the rules and not disobeyed them with lies and deceit?

  22. This is good. But it’s not enough. Leaving it to Charters is a mistake. We’ll end up with regions where Charters don’t change existing policy – thus forcing LGBT Scouts/Volunteers to drive out of their area to find a tolerant unit. And you’ll have situations where Scouts are treated inhospitably at larger events such as Camporees or Jamborees. How will parent’s know that a unit is tolerant? Will unit flags get a pink triangle on them? Your average teenager doesn’t care – why should we? Open it up across the board. Review GtSS if needed and enforce it and background checks. Let kids enter the program and feel welcome. That’s all I’ll say this time around – I commented a lot last time we discussed this in Bryan’s forums and I really just don’t have the energy to argue with those that are close minded and hateful anymore.

    • Then that makes you just as close minded as the people you are calling it. It’s bad enough that National is considering this but then to force units to have to accept it despite the opinions of the members of that unit is unfair.

    • We have about 25-30 teenage scouts in our troop. I would not describe any of them as average. They are all God minded above average young men that work hard to achieve scouting excellence. Next we will have to soften program requirements for the not so masculine and emotionally unstable individuals. This is only the beginning.

      • duty to god and country. trustworthy, reverent and clean. contrary to what a lot of people here seem to think, LGBT individuals are perfectly capable of adhering to the scout oath and law.

      • I bet one of those boys is a closet gay, and all your rancor is eating away at him, and by 25 he’ll have committed suicide because everyone around him spews nonsense hate about gay people.

        Just goes to show that you can’t cure stupid.

    • Gays won’t have to drive far. They can form their own units right where they live. They could have already done this with the Campfire Boys/Girls organization. The pink triangle sounds good. I agree leaving it to the individual units won’t work. Gay and straight units will have to mix at council and national events.

      • If BSA leaders allow or encourage the kind of conversation that would result in the kind of hate that would make “open” units clash with “closed” ones, then there is something fundamentally wrong — and it is NOT the open units.

  23. I’m sorry, but I find this very disheartening. AS an Eagle Scout and a Scout leader, I would not support this move at all. Scouting always stood on principle that we are a PRIVATE organization. If another group wanted to allow gay youth and men into it, then fine, let them start their own organization. But as a Scouting movement, we have an obligation first and foremost to protect the young boys and men we serve. Sexuality should never be a part of it. Just look at the example that the Girl Scouts are now in with huge declining numbers and a strong agenda that goes against everything they once stood for as well. Is this what Scouting is becoming? I sincerely hope not.

    Granted I have been in Scouting long enough to see many young people that have come out of the closet over the years and have left the Scouting movement because of its stance. I’ve also seen a number of people stay a part of Scouting who should have been removed a lot sooner because of their own sexual preferences and the damage caused to other young boys because of that. Is this going to be the doorway to pedophilia? I urge the National offices to use extreme caution. Think about the boys we serve and the steps we have been taking to protect them in all circumstances. We are not perfect by any means….but we are always trying to improve on the system.

    Again, if a group would like to start up a youth organization dedicated to gay youth and men, so be it, but don’t drag the B.S.A. down with it.

    • you’re right, sexuality shouldn’t be a part of it. which is why there should never have been a ban in the fist place.

      also… fyi. most pedophiles have wives.

  24. Whether you are for or against being gay and gay rights isn’t what’s most important that all the boys get to be a part of the organization? For me those of you opposing this is like telling my son he can’t be a scout because he isn’t LDS. Where is that logic? A child should have the right to be a part of scouts at an early age but then to get told No! Your hard work and determination is irrelevant because you choose (which from what I understand it isn’t a choice) to be gay. I believe this is a step in the right decision.

  25. Amen! It is time for this change. As the Charter Org. Exec. we will welcome this change and the privilege to welcome a group of young men and their parents back into Scouting.
    As to Scouting giving into the media – far from it. They are recognizing that funding agencies no longer support organizations that discriminate. Nor do many charter organizations want to be involved with Scouting as they discriminate against a specific group of people.
    This is welcome news.

  26. So National is relieving itself, and all the local councils from any future litigation expense and passing it on to the Charter orginizations to deal with and absorb. Status Quo, I will pray for the National committee when this actually comes up for a vote, I can tell you I know alot of seasoned scouters that will retire if this comes to pass.

    • Not to mention lost units because of leaders and youth (because many youth do have an opinion on the matter)…

    • Good, let the bigots retire. Its time we recognize reality. And science. Homosexuals aren’t devient or immoral. I know plenty of immoral heterosexuals and it has nothing to do with what they do in the bedroom. I bet all the ‘seasoned’ scouters are so clueless that they don’t even know hermaphradites exist…you know, people born with both sets of sexual anatomy. So, what sex are they? What gender are they? What sexual orientation do they have? Wake up, buddy. Biology isn’t black and white. It can be a little gray here and there…and sometimes pink. That doesn’t make a person immoral….unless you judge people without knowing them. Like casting stones, do you? WWJD

      • New International Version (NIV)
        13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads

      • You not tolerating people who have a problem with the proposed change makes you just as big of a bigot.

        Some of us have issues that are more related to all the difficulties and legal exposure we are going to encounter. Same as if the BSA lifted the rule on males and females sleeping and bathing separately.

        This is not a minor change. This is a monumental change in philosophy that looks like it is going to get shoved through.

      • Scientifically speaking, hermaphroditic characteristics are a result of biological corruption, a mistake in the DNA. I would stop likening them to homosexuality if I were you, unless you really think that homosexuality is a condition of a similar nature.

      • Yes, homosexuality is likely a ‘biological corruption’. Does that mean we shouldn’t treat them with dignity and love?

        Oscar Pistorious is an Olympian who was born without the fibula bones in both legs…an obvious ‘biological corruption’ but we treat him equally. Some people are born with cerebral palsay, a biological corruption, yet many have magnificant minds simply trapped in a body that cannot cooperate.

        So, is ‘gay’ what biology sets out for? No. But that doesn’t make them incapable of love, commitment, honor, virtue, honesty, kindness, respect, trust, loyalty…and reverence. I’m not stipulating that homosexuality is a handicap or anything like that, but i admit its not ‘perfect
        biology. But who has that? The woman with a mustache? The Danny Davito men of the world? The guy with ED? The infertile woman?

    • A pretty accurate description of what is happening. The same thing happened in 1974 when BSA National go tired of carrying the water for the various all-white troops that existed across the country, and decided to pass the decision down to the local level. It wasn’t too long after that all-white troops stopped existing. Most think that was ultimately a good thing, although you can still find detractors from time to time.

  27. I absolutely think the ban should be lifted for boys. That should not even be a question. So please, even if it isn’t fully lifted, make sure no more boys are denied their Eagle or other earned awards because they came out as homosexual.

    • Sorry, gay youth who have gone through the program knowing the policy are not being “trustworthy” neither are the leaders who hide the fact that they knew. Its sad that the leaders and their parents taught the youth to lie.

      • Why do you assume they knew? They start as young as SIX. If you are saying they knew at six, then they are clearly born that way and shouldn’t be discriminated against. And I know no one in my Cub Scout Pack is discussing gays in the unit – not appropriate for boys – so they may not even know the policy until sometime in high school.

        They could EASILY not know the policy existed until sometime in high school.

        They could also be in denial even to themselves, and reach the point that they couldn’t deny or hide it and be denied awards they had already completed.

      • They hide it because of people like you! You teach them to lie because they hear the hate from you. They don’t want to disappoint people like you because you will not accept them for how God made them.

  28. There is all of this discussion in society against bullying. BSA is not bullying anyone by clearly stating their policy. Those who don’t agree with it do not have to join. Anyone who would like to have a scouting organization with different policies is free to start one, like American Heritage Girls did when they disagreed with Girl Scouts’ policies. To try to force a private organization to change their long-held beliefs and policies to better align with a small, vocal faction of society who disagrees with them is bullying.

  29. Who will be responsible for any possible homosexual molestation of scouts? The chartered organization or BSA? The vast majority of cases in the past have been homosexual in nature.

    • you say they’ve been homosexual because its typically a boy molested by a man? well, in scouts… sure it is. but many of those men that molest boys don’t identify as homosexual. they are married and have children of their own. many times their own children are among their victims. preventing abuse of boys by homosexual adults will be carried out in the same way preventing abuse of boys by heterosexual adults already is. if something terrible happens, it will be dealt with in the same way that it already is. kicked out of scouts, criminally prosecuted.

  30. When this change goes through, I will end my association with the BSA. The ban came about because of leaders sexually assaulting boys. Now the BSA makes it easier for homosexual pedophiles to prey on young boys? They can’t have it both ways. And please, spare me the “not all gays are pedophiles” speech. I know that – but all pedophiles who have historically preyed on boys were homosexuals. I hope this isn’t true.

    • wait a minute – you really don’t believe that the polcy was a result of the “perversion files”? It is the other way around, BSA hid for years heterosexual leaders molesting boys. I never understood how the BSA could ban gays , but hide molesters.

      • Excuse me but a male leader molesting a boy is not heterosexual molestation it’s homosexual.

      • No, you have it all wrong – is Jerry Sandusky
        a homosexual ? Are Catholic priests who molested young boys homosexuals?

        Really? Homosexuals are not all molesters, just as all heterosexuals are molesters.

        I assume you believe that the over thousand
        male leaders in the perversion files are homosexuals ?

    • Kent, you really should do some homework. There are pedophiles in BSA NOW and the ones that I have been aware of in our council, sadly, are not homosexual, just troubled, unhealthy humans. It is time that we who believe in the wonderful mission of BSA stand up and say, yes, EVERYONE, has a right to be part of this. If standing on a soap box extolling your personal sexual practice, heterosexual or homosexual YOU do not belong in a Youth Organization. Whatever someone does in the privacy of their own home is THEIR business and has NOTHING to do with any organization. Let us understand that humans come in all packages and let’s get to know the heart of the person who believes in the values of Scouting. Let’s all see each person for the good human that they are. Wouldn’t you want someone to understand you and not prejudge you?
      I applaud the BSA for finally embracing the idea, that all of us are created equal and for the good. To be proven wrong by actions not ideology.

  31. What the BLEEP!
    Those with big bucks now OWN the Boy Scouts? So, money is all the matters Now to BSA? Who cares if UPS quit giving them money. This is the END of the Beginning. What is good is now Bad and Bad is Good. No more black and white the line begins to Grey. I’m sure all founders would be rolling over with this decision.
    Parent of 2012 Eagle.

    • Actually, biology isn’t Black and White. Are you to deny even the existence of hermaphradites? You know, or maybe you don’t, the people born with both sets of sexual anatomy? Soo, are they male or female? What’s their gender? What’s their sexual orientation?

      Have you heard of transgendered people? probably not.

      If you want to talk morality, than hold people to that standard. Hold straight and gay to the same standard of sexual conduct. Committed relationships, love, marriage? You keep pushing them under the rug and they’ll keep their relationships under the rug. Don’t give them the option of open committed relationships, and well, you won’t get it.

      Immoral….try telling a teen that he can’t be a Scout because his body doesn’t feel sexual attration to a female. He can pretend. He could pretend to like girls..and hurt those girls when it doesn’t work. I mean, when did you choose to be straight or gay? What was the date that you made a conscious decision to be straight? For me…I just sorta started liking girls in like…7th grade. Started to notice those skirts in Cathloic school. I didn’t choose…it just was.

      • The gay youth could join an organization that is centered around that belief.

        As for gender, that is determined by chromosomes, not surgical mutilation.

      • gay youth that want to be scouts don’t want to join an organization centered around being gay. they want to join an organization centered around being scouts. allowing gay scouts to join (or not be kicked out) doesn’t mean we are all going to sit around the camp fire and encourage boys to have sex with other boys. it means that gay boys will be allowed to belong in units that allow them. that’s all. nothing will change.

      • But what if the members of the unit do not want them despite being forced to be classified as “inclusive”?

      • Wait, Jo…you just agreed that being gay is a biological condition? Did you come to your senses finally? There is a LORD!

        I thought you believe it was a choice and these young boys were shameful sinners. Good to know that you believe people dont’ choose to be gay and they’re born that way…the way God made them.

      • You are so bigoted against people with religious beliefs that you are seeing it everywhere. I have not made a single religious reference supporting any opinion or statement I made.

        But sure being gay could quite obviously be from a genetic defect. I still believe some people choose to be gay as well. That is their right.

  32. Tragic! The bit about leaving things up to individual troops ignores the fact that there are combined events like competition campouts, not to mention summer camp and Jamboree.

    So much for two-deep leadership to protect kids.

      • I don’t know how it should be. But if two gay youth of the same gender that are “just friends” want to tent together, should they be allowed? Can they be buddies for going out of camp? Yes? That’s easy, right. Okay so then in Venturing, could a straight male and female who are “just friends” tent together? Could they be buddies for going out of camp?

        See, its not an easy answer.

        What if a group of gay youth are uncomfortable with tenting with a straight youth of the same gender? Should the straight youth have to camp by themselves if there were no other buddies for them? What about if a group if straight kids were not comfortable with having to tent with a gay kid? Should the gay youth have to camp by themselves if there were no other buddies for them?

        These are real issues that will come up and need to be addressed.

      • Nope! Not this change! I let my 14 yr old read the post and he feels it would be awkward meaning that the scouts asks them to use the buddy system when traversing campsites and tent buddies. He said that if they can’t control there urges where does that leave me? Will we be told if they are gay? If two leaders are gay what happens then if i get put in a situation and we are at camp? He says that while that is their choice, his would be not around them if he always has to wonder.
        A whole new can of worms would be opened! Week long summer camps…what then? Will we as members of a troop be told if a scout has declared his sexual orientation?
        Just as with AIDS – unless you are told, you don’t know! If a scout is asked is he obliged to tell the other scout?
        Same gender partners as leaders on the cub scout kevel – that creates questions and discussions with younger children that some don’t want to have until their child is older – why would we have to be forced into embracing the topic with a 7 yr old? If you don’t think they will notice, think again!
        I’m all for their equality, but with limits! They got the Girl Scouts to cave! Thus American Heritage Girls formed – the United Way pulled backing from BSA and they held their heads high, standing behind what Sir Baden Powell envisioned when he started Boy Scouts of America! He would surely be turning over in his grave if he knew what was currently being discussed! Not happy! I wonder if we as parents of scouts can speak at this meeting????

      • oh my. sure… bring AIDS into it. lets see if we can add a little more scare factor into this. you know what my 14 year old son said today when i told him about this? “good, it’s about time.”

      • She mentions aids and you freak out. You mock and disparage people’s religious views and that’s ok?

  33. This is so sad. There’s no need for BSA to change. SpiralScouts International is very inclusive in their membership. Everyone who needs a different position can join it.

    • There is another group called the Navigators that is also gay friendly.

      The problem is that the gays won’t be happy until they force themselves into every facet of our lives. They claim bigotry because we don’t accept their ways which means they don’t accept ours which is also bigotry.

      • Their (LGBT) agenda is twofold: 1. Infiltration and 2. Indoctrination. The BSA has known this for years.

      • so people who opposed slavery were bigots against those that wished to perpetuate the practice of slavery? you’re using false logic.

      • There is a difference.. they don’t care about you or your life. They care about themselves and having the same as you.. They want to share with their children the same scouting program they grew up in. the same one that taught them that a scout works to change an unjust system from the inside.

    • spiral scouts? right. because there is a chapter of that in every town in america. not a reasonable solution.

      • Please… BSA wasn’t in every town in America either when it started either. Starting your own brand of kid organization is on them. Forcing their way into our existing organization because they don’t want to make their own is not reasonable.

      • The executive board is discussing it. If they adopt the new policy, they apparently disagree with you.

  34. All this means is a “return” to when leadership was only the purview of the chartering group. They will still have the same control, and it should be of little consequence. Surely those chartering orgs that have continued issues with this will simply not allow it. Why that should effect any other group is odd, as the whole subject still remains off limits, just as it was prior to this. If it becomes a negative distraction for some reason, the sponsor can simply dismiss them as their prerogative, just as they did before it became a public distraction due to the activists..

    • Because someone will be dissatisfied that Unit X didn’t capitulate so will sue their small chartered organizations into submission. So we’ll all be forced to accept it. National is ducking and really screwing over their long time supporters.

  35. I am fully supportive of this move, and shows that the new leadership are being sensible in setting direction, you will never please everyone. the organization was in a very discrimatory direction and related press has damaged membership which will take years to repair.

  36. Church based troops will still maintain their ability to discriminate. Public school troops will be free to not be dictated to by faulty doctrine and hatred.

    • See, you continue to show hatred towards churches and units that may choose to stay traditional. Why do you insist on an all or nothing deal?

  37. This is a disappointment. The BSA is bowing into liberal political and media pressure.

    • The most popular TV news channel in the country is Fox News. More popular than all other TV news channels combined. Are you saying Fox News is responsible for this change in BSA policy?

  38. I agree to a point, a Scout that is denied Eagle (or any advancement) because of his orientation is a shame after the work has been done. I don’t agree that just because someone is homosexual means they are going to molest the Scouts, look at all the leaders that have been cast out because they were ‘outed’ – how many of them are on the lists of abusers released last year, probably not as many as one might think.

    I do wonder how the Scout Oath will be changed or will ‘morally straight’ be applied. only to don’t cheat, steal, lie.

    There’s a lot of digest and I don’t think we can do it here on this list although it’s a good place for everyone to vent. Will I turn in the membership card of myself and my four sons, most likely not. BSA will still do background checks and hopefully catch anyone that’s done it before and been charged. Just like now any adult that tries to sign up without a son in the program will get some serious suspicion as to their motivition and VERY closesly watched. The buddy system and the yearly viewing of “A Time to Tell” will be more important than ever to make sure we all stay safe.

    God made us all – some good, some bad but he still made us all – I think we all need to step back from the edge and see what National says before we jump. Look how long it’s taking to get one oath, motto, etc – I think it’s 2014, this won’t happen overnight either.

    • The Scout phrase “morally straight” was written in 1911. The use of “straight” to refer to sexuality did not start until the 1940s. The Scout Oath does not need to change — it has always meant the same thing, and it has never had anything to do with sexual orientation.

      • “I agree to a point, a Scout that is denied Eagle (or any advancement) because of his orientation is a shame after the work has been done. I don’t agree that just because someone is homosexual means they are going to molest the Scouts,…”

        Any Scout who is currently a homosexual who makes it to ANY advancement stage, could be considered not “morally straight” due to the simple fact that he IS aware of the current policy and has continued with the Pack and/or Troop.
        This has nothing to do with the fact of his orientation…but rather that he has dedceived the BSA.

        Whether you agree with that position or not, THAT would be a valid arguement for denying anyone any advancement.

      • “Any Scout who is currently a homosexual who makes it to ANY advancement stage, could be considered not “morally straight” due to the simple fact that he IS aware of the current policy and has continued with the Pack and/or Troop.”

        I would say more because he is not being Honest, he may still be straight to HIS morals.. maybe not yours.. but is he also of your religion?

  39. As an older Scout (almost Scouter), I find this to be rather disturbing. Not the policy one way or the other, but the fact that the policy exists. Sexuality should not be a discussion item for any reason what-so-ever at Scouting events. I have reprimanded most of the younger youth in my troop for making jokes or inappropriate comments about this topic (or any sexual topic for that matter).

    I know a few Scouts (now Scouters/Active Military) that are gay, and I respect them for their accomplishments as Scouts, regardless of sexual orientation, because it was never a topic that any of us approved of at Scouting events (sexual topics in general).

    I hope my Scouting career will go un-phased by this. If it does become an issue, I fear that it may ruin the program for everyone.

  40. so let me get this straight… no pun intended. People who are upset by this are angry about a policy that has only been around for… what, 30 years or so, in a 100 year old organization?? The policy was created to PROTECT the boys from molesters… i.e. to get the media off their back and protect themselves from liability. Now all of a sudden it’s a terrible thing to remove the policy????

    I have not been in Scouting very long, but from what I have learned so far, it’s about the boys learning to be self-sufficient, confident, and strong leaders. Our job is to help them on that path, but it is also to keep them safe! As long as we do that, what is the problem?

  41. No, no and no!!! … How clear can it be when God tells us through his Bible that homosexuality is WRONG… they already wormed their way into the Girl Scouts so that American Heritage Girls had to be formed, which Boy Scouts shows approval of (not the Girl Scouts anymore). If this is allowed, Boy Scouts will fall the same way of the Girls Scouts and a new organization will be formed to replace it. How sad is it that the world is coming to acceptance of this!

    • You are extremely closed minded, Laura. Common sense should tell you excluding homosexuals is wrong. You don’t need the Bible.


      • Calm down. Plenty of gay folks have kids. This isn’t 1965.

        My fiancé and I are exploring adoption, and I personally know of over a dozen gay/lesbian couples who’ve adopted, used in-vitro, or a surrogate to start families. I myself was a scout as a boy. Of course I was in the closet at the time, but nowadays there are courageous kids coming out earlier and earlier. Forcing them out of scouting because of something over which they have no control is mean-spirited. This is a welcome change!


    • The Girl Scouts are going strong, and the Boy Scouts will continue to do so if this goes through. I know lots of families, ours included, that haven’t wanted to put our sons into an organization that so hatefully bans certain types of people from participating. If the ban is lifted, we will be happy to participate.

      God also tells us in the Bible that divorce is wrong. Are there no divorced scout leaders? Gluttony, greed, covetousness… all wrong. Does the Boy Scouts screen its leaders to make sure they don’t fall prey to any of those sins? What about “love thy neighbor as thyself”? Wouldn’t that include gay people (you can treat them as equals without “condoning” homosexuality. As far as I can tell, every single anti-gay Boy Scout supporter on here is violating that one, and that came straight from Jesus’ lips. So from where I’m sitting, if the Boy Scouts were truly biblical, not a single one of you would be allowed to remain.

      Start loving and stop fearing.

      • Angie, everyone sins, the Bible tells us that. It’s in our nature due to the Fall of man. However, homosexuals choose to live a life of sin and can have a negative influence on families. (This article backs that statement:

        Yes, Angie, the Bible tells us to love our neighbors. Thus, we should treat homosexuals with respect because they are children of God just like the rest of us. However, that does not mean that we have agree with their behavior or change our morals because of them.

        If you don’t want to put your kids in an organization that exercises its right to restrict membership, that is just fine. Both you and the BSA should be able to act freely in that regard.

      • no one is asking you to change your morals. you don’t have to become gay if this change is implemented. you simply can’t say that someone else can’t belong if they are gay.

      • No, it does not have a negative impact on families, and, no, they are not “choosing” it any more than you chose heterosexuality (or did you?). At any rate, I wasn’t saying we needed to “agree with their behavior or change our morals because of them.” I was saying they have a right to be part of BSA.

        What concerns me about what you wrote is that you are singling out homosexuality as somehow worthy of more concern than other sins. Homosexuality is only mentioned about 5 times in the Bible but has received disproportionate attention and condemnation. The rest of it is dedicated to the sins that ALL of us commit on a daily basis. My point was, if you are going to single out homosexuality, you have to rule out those other sins as well.

    • Laura, please understand that there are more people out there that are not you. In fact, the majority of scouting does not believe in the Christian God. What I wonder, is how you managed to pick up the part in the bible where God says (by the way, the bible was edited by man) that homosexuality is a sin but seemed to miss the parts where it is okay for me to sell my daughter into slavery. Or stone my children to death if they misbehave. Or the part where an Angel told a runaway slave to go back to her mistress and accept the punishment (genisis 16:8). My point here is that saying that the BSA should ban gays because of the Christian Bible is ludicrous. The Boy Scouts aim to promote good moral behaviour and not the morals of any one religion. Therefore, the BSA must promote their own set of morals and beliefs. I could be wrong, of course, but then again, if your charter feels that homosexuality is a sin, then they simply will not be allowed in your troop. Also, if your troop is against homosexuality, then there will be no need to worry about “what will happen at camp when there are other troops I dont know there?” Well your troop will just stay to itself and will not deal with them. The staff will mind their own business like they have always had. Also, most councils, if they believe homosexuality is wrong, will not hire a gay scout for a staff.

      On a more personal note, you Laura, yes you directly, are the reason I got into so many fights at camp and in school. I was one of those people defending gay scouts and my gay friends. I am straight and have nothing to lose with standing up to you and your kind of ignorance. Please just keep in mind that you are ruining another person’s life with your current ways of thinking.

      • The mjority believe in God,there are more than just Christians in Scouting – Jews, – we believe in God as well.

      • First of all, that “Christian God” is the same God that Muslims and Jews follow; it’s called the “Abrahamic Religions” for a reason. Second, the Holocaust was started by a christian man; the fact someone is christian does not make then “better” than anyone else.

        People need to get off their high horse about it. Gays are people too, and they will be part of society, so better get with the program and be a little gay about it yourself (to those closed minded idiots; gay also means happy. Will you look at that, you learn something new every day.).

      • there is no one religious point of view in BSA – there are Christian scouts, Buddhist scouts, Jewish scouts, Muslim scouts, etc

      • Nick, It’s not just a Biblical problem. Homosexuality is damaging to family life. Suicide is a problem with homosexuals. Children raised in a homosexual family get denied having a Male and Female parent, which sociologists agree is detrimental.(source: Lastly, many former homosexuals have admitted that it ruined their lives and left them feeling helpless.

      • um. suicide is a problem with homosexuals because of stigma and fear. so perhaps being more inclusive and accepting of others that are different from oneself will help prevent suicide?

        not all kids have a mother and a father. not all kids have two parent households even. MANY MANY MANY kids are raised by same sex couples and turn out juuuuuust fine. heard of Zach Wahls? Eagle scout raised by a lesbian couple. very thoughtful, intelligent, well adjusted young man. founder of scouts for equality.

    • I am a Christian. Find me a verse in the NEW TESTAMENT that explicitly condemns homosexuality. What’s that? There aren’t any? What’s that? Most of Christianity’s rules have been made up by jerks in power that were simply trying to crush things they didn’t like?

      Read your bible. Don’t you dare use my religion to fuel your blind crusade against things you’ve been tricked into hating. I can’t decide if I’m more angry or depressed that Christianity has been turned into an ignorant crusade against things people are uncomfortable with.

      How sad is it that Christians know nothing of their own religion?

      • Romans 1:26-27
        26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    • oh. right. God tells you through his bible? is there anything that he tells you in his bible that you don’t actually pay attention to? how do you feel about slavery? shellfish? cotton/poly blends?

      thing is, BSA is NOT a christian organization. yes, a scout is reverent, but not necessarily christian. that said, there are even christian organizations that accept openly gay members, and even perform same sex marriages. so. the thing is. if you want to be in a unit that doesn’t allow gay individuals, so be it. but if gay individuals are interested in reaping the benefits that scouting has to offer, then who are you to tell them they can’t?

    • Laura -read the Bible please. The Bible also tells you to kill children who disobey their parents. Honest, its Leviticus 20:9. Now, do you follow that part of the Bible?
      Or the part that says to kill people who work on the Sabbath? That’s in Exodus 35:2.

      But you seem to ‘know’ the Bible, so I assume that you just choose to ignore parts that are inconvenient to you. Some Christian you are.

  42. For those wishing to quote the bible:

    The bible is one religious text of many. The BSA, in its infinite wisdom, supports spirituality in nearly all its forms and religious beliefs. It may surprise you, but there are some religions that: don’t use the bible, support or consider LGBT rights inconsequential to their doctrine, and/or don’t see the bible even if that use it as an absolute. I’m not going to go toe-to-toe with anyone when it comes to quoting the good book. But I do know that if you wish to do so, there is A LOT in Revelations and elsewhere that I’m sure you’d fail to do, perform and live up to in today’s world.

    Psst…that’s one translation – and it’s not even a good one.

  43. This makes me soooo happy!!! I think it is about time to allow LGBT be considered for leadership. Character is not determined by sexual orientation!

  44. That would be the worst mistake the BSA would ever make. It would show the money is more important than principal and standards and morality.

    • really? and here i’ve always thought they will avoid ending this policy because of the money they would lose from the LDS and catholic churches.

  45. The BSA, a once renowned bastion of wholesome American values is simply dumped into the trash bin of history…there is now no difference in this organization accepting today’s lack of moral direction and planned parenthood. The BSA caves to the liberal minority and simply gives way to the left-wing agenda. If this becomes reality…then so much for the Scout Oath and being morally straight! Also, myself or my family will no longer support the BSA, no longer donate to the BSA and no longer volunteer to the BSA. I will immediately remove my boys from an organization that now teaches them that being good, clean, morally straight Americans is no longer cool or publicly acceptable! Don’t forget, I also have a vote in the future of scouting and I won’t be the only one to say good-bye…this is the end of scouting because the lowly minority will never replace the lost conservative scouter and most scout volunteers are not liberal in their ideology. I am sure that Sir Lord Baden-Powell would agree with me. What a complete travesty from a gutless BSA leadership.

    • You are extremely closed minded, Laura and Donald. Common sense should tell you excluding homosexuals is wrong. You don’t need the Bible.

      • There are no official substantive references or sources you could point to that would give your statement any weight. Even the latest biography by Tim Jeal is unclear as to the historical certainty of his orientation. Jeal himself concedes this.

    • Tom I think scouting is for all it teaches people about being a moral citizen and should not dictate about peoples sexuality it is fundamently about being honest about yourself and those around and how you would expected to be treated.
      ps you cannot add a sir to a lord BP’s correct title is Lord Baden Powell of Gilwell and if you ever get the chance you should go to Gilwell Park his home its a Scout activty centre for all to use wether you are Straight or not

  46. As an Eagle Scout myself, I applaud Scouts for taking this first step towards a more inclusive policy. My troop was sponsored by a secular group. I can appreciate that troops with religious sponsors might have different opinions. There are religions to welcome and accept homosexuals, so a policy that would allow secular sponsors or more inclusive religious sponsors to adopt policies that are right for them seems like a good idea.

    • Yeah. Who’s allowed to tent with who? How is the buddy system going to work now (in Venturing boys and girls can not be each others buddy). How is 2 deep leadership going to work? Again, in Venturing, if I have girls I have to have a female leader and the same with boys needing a male leader. How does this work if you introduce gay youth, or a “transgendered” youth? Are we going to lift the rule on males and females sharing tents and shower areas? This will be a nightmare.

      • Yes, Vivienne, they are the same gender. However, many, if not most of hetero boys would not feel comfortable tenting with a homosexual boy.

      • Then they can be in a unit that does not allow homosexuals that is chartered by your church.. where the others that are not going to care, can now be chartered by the UU church that does allow homosexuals..

        Simple.. no real problems..

      • So two gay youth of the same gender that are “just friends” can tent together because somehow they are more responsible and have more self control than a straight young male and female who are “just friends” but are not allowed to tent together? How is this equal or fair?

  47. This will spawn the Heritage Boys equivalent of the Heritage Girls and take the numbers in the BSA down dramatically. I do not see the LDS Church falling in line with this move. The BSA will dry up in 5 years.

    • I hope not, but if this membership change does come to pass I can’t say the BSA didn’t ask for it.

    • This has not been finalized yet. And I think it will only happen if the LDS Church agrees to it.

    • units chartered to LDS wards will not have to make any changes – this will be a unit by unit decision, from what I understand

      • Until the lawsuits start flying. What National is proposing is shifting the legal battle down to the CO’s.

    • I think it will be the LDS Church that will be marginalized. It will be every unit’s choice whether to accept leaders and youth based on their character and abilities, not their sexual orientation or preferences. If their behavior suggests that they pose a danger to youth, they will be removed from the program. If the LDS decides they cannot abide a 21st Century BSA policy of inclusion, perhaps it’s time they develop a new program for their youth.

  48. As a Scout Master this change in position may be the death of scouting as we know it. Homosexual acts are sin ! You can say they are not but they still are. The Boy Scouts have always called their members to walk through life at a higher standard to follow the scout oath and law. This change in position will undermine that standard.

    • Well, fortunately, homosexual acts will not be happening in Boy Scouts, so you don’t have to worry about that. At any rate, isn’t divorce a sin? Gluttony? Greed? A prideful heart? Does the Boy Scouts exclude leaders who have those qualities? Stop focusing only on one sin.

      • Trenton, Please quote me book, chapter, and verse of where Jesus condemned homosexuals. You won’t find a single one.

        Now if you do want to follow the WWJD principles, why not do some good instead of condemning others.

        Now please pull the plank out of your eye before trying to remove the sty in mine.

      • Rob I can tell you that the Old Testament testifys that homosexuality is a sin along with the New Testament and you can’t separate the two Testaments from each other. Rob please read the whole Bible I would not want to deprive you of finding out for yourself if the Bible is true or not. I am not condemning anyone as no man can take on this mantle save Jesus Christ. All men will have to stand before the bar of Jehovah and be judged there is no way around it. Trenton

      • so you want to exclude all sinners from scouts equally? ok then. i suppose we are all out according to christian doctrine?

    • so we should exlude all sinners from scouts? ok. noted. so how did you or i or anyone else for that matter get in? i recall something the bible said about judging not… can you finish that for me? i don’t recall how it ends…

  49. I understand that the Scouting movement in Great Britain caved recently. That is no consolation whatsoever. We must pray and pray hard.

  50. What a bunch of GUTLESS INDIVIDUALS we have in Texas. For the past five years the executive committee has been looking for a way to incorporate the homosexual/pedifile lifestyle into scouting. No longer will a normal lifestyle be safe from those who’s desire is to pervert our youth. The fact that one organization can prohibit an individual from joining does not protect their scouts from the adults or youths of another troop. Imagine the sexual attacks that WILL take place in the woods at summer camp or jamboree’s. When this happens who will be at fault? Who will be accountable and charged for such act? Why should they? You know that type of lifestyle we will be forced to accept. Wayne Brock,the new scout chief has stated that he will bring scouting in America more into the mainstream of scouting around the world. Canada already has moved to allow homosexuals. In England, psychiatrists have stated that pedifilia is a normal lifestyle and is looking to have it accepted into the mainstream. WAYNE BROCK, you need to resign. Your agenda is in no way a positive step in helping our scouts grow to be responsible individuals. Any lazy person can turn a blind eye to what anyone does and accept anything. At least until those new standards affect them. Then it is too late. To take a stand and combat evil standards is difficult. The Integrity necessary to do so comes over a long period of time through much diligence and hard work. What message are you, WAYNE BROCK, sending about ME because I will not accept your pervsive attitude? Does that, WAYNE BROCK, make you better than Me? Recreational Pot is legal in some states. Is that for okay with you WAYNE BROCK? Prostitution is legal. Is that okay with you WAYNE BROCK? All the finances spent to defend The Boy Scouts of America against those who demanded “THE FILES”. What a fraud, a rouse to cover up WAYNE BROCK”S actions. There may be many members on the EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE, but WAYNE BROCK is the chief and is solely responsible to enact on their behalf. I stated in a Woodbadge Course that if Texas changes any standard, such as this, that The Boy Scouts of America will no longer be The Boy Scouts of America. Bryan, I may have wrongly stated that in 2012 there was a forum on accepting HOMOSEXUALS into scouting. Perhaps It was in a different forum, but I wish I wasn’t right when I stated that this would happen and was ridiculed but many whose said it wouldn’t happen or that it is time. The GOD that will be taken out of scouting will hold you, WAYNE BROCK, and the committee accountable. Don’t accept my words and standards? How intollerant of you.

    • You need to separate sexual orientation from pediphelia. No one has ever claimed that pediphelia is acceptable and your believe that they are on in the same reveals that you are not giving this any real thought. You may disagree with the lifestyles of the LGBT community but don’t put them in the same camp as pediphiles. A pediphile selects individuals based on their age and their ability to dominate.
      Also, in my experience, many of those who so strongly and vocally vilify gays are secretly that way themselves but are conflicted in dealing with it, so they lash out at those who are open.

      • If your so ignorant that you think your cute comment is credible, laugh when your child, if you are privelidged to have them, or a child of an aquaintence comes and tells that they were assaulted. Tell them that it is okay since they are married. I make no apologies for my statement. Should have said more.

      • The BSA is NOT letting pediphiles in. No one has ever said that, well, except you. You need to understand the terms. It is ignorance of this type that is killing our nation. I would not want my child being mentored by someone who is so poorly informed as you. What are you teaching the youth in your unit? Maybe you should reconsider if you are fit as a leader if you cannot separate such concepts.
        If Mike Jr were gay or his kids, would you have kicked them out of scouting? or out of your house?

      • Sonny boy, as my sons baseball coach, and the best on base player I had, I sat him, and two of his team mates, for not doing their school work. I pulled my oldest daughter off the field during a game when she yelled at me from the field and told me to shut up after she struck out. I have not, nor I do today tolerate anyone of my scouts who, in any way, violates the Scout Law, Oath, Promise and Slogan. Pedifiles will have to be allowed. BSA wouldn’t want to discriminate against them. As for your question, you bet I would have dismissed him from scouts. If any of my grandkids, of which there are 8, decides to follow that perverted lifestyle, I will do all I can to protect my other grandkids from them. Too bad you don’t have the same desire to protect others.

      • the difference here, Mike, is that pedophiles are excluding for committing crimes. homosexuality is not a crime. if a homosexual commits pedophilia then of course, he would be excluded, yes, and rightfully so. homosexuality DOES NOT equal pedophilia. I am certainly glad that my son has not had a mentor like you to teach him how to hate.

      • First, I probably could be your father. Do you have now or ever had any gay scouts in your unit? My guess is that you have had many and many of your best scouts who dropped out of the program did so because of the discrimination policy. Since a scout is honest, he must leave if he thinks he is gay. Human sexuality is not simply fully gay or fully straight, it is a continuum. In adolescence, youth are trying to figure these things out. And by your argument, you would throw out all of the scouts who ever think they are gay. This would be (and is) a tragedy.
        You should realize that there is a very real possibility that a soon-to-be gay scout (but not out of the closet) will be spending the night alone in a tent with your son. The ony way to protect yourself against them is to never go out of the house, but then if you have two sons, the other might be gay too.

        The other point, is why would the BSA have to allow pediphiles? I have been involved in scouting for almost 50 years and at the council level have had to deal with issues with pediphiles and child pornographers. I have also known many a scout who has eventually come out. Believe me, these are all very different things. I do not know of any gay (ex-)scout to whom I would not want trust with my son or grandson. But there is a large number of ‘heterosexual’ scouters who even I feel uncomfortable around (and several of them, over the years, have crossed the line into pediphelia or child pornography).
        If you have access to the BSA ‘secret’ file list, many of the individuals who were rejected due to molestation were ‘happily married’ men.

      • i certainly do not condone pedophilia and do not find it amusing that children are abused. my point is that it is false to say that pedophiles are all gay. it is just as wrong if the pedophile in question is married to a woman. most male pedophiles are married. and their victims are their own children.

  51. It is Too Bad that National is pushing the Front Lines of this battle to our back yards, as if we don’t have to stand strong on this subject, now we stand Alone! Thanks National !
    R.I.P. BSA Values.

    • Nice right? We’ve supported them and their policies for years now they duck and abandon those supporters. Of course they will want our support when they come begging for FOS donations.

  52. In a matter of time this will go down hill! Slippery slope! It happens all the time! DO NOT do this! There will be a split in the BSA! The issue will then be more about the money being lost because of the mass exodus (See how the GSA is all up in arms due to so many leaving for AHG). This decision HAS to be tied to money!The AT&T CEO and E&Y guys obviously have a lot of pull related to their wallets. In this world it is the Golden Rule! The ones with the Gold make the rules. So , if BSA decided to go this way, and BSA becomes fractured due to this decision, they will hurt for money. That will then open them up further to moral decline to get more members. And do you think the people wanting this to happen will stop at this give in? NOPE – expect it to get worse with more and more pressure! DO NOT MAKE THIS VERY VERY BAD DECISION! Please kick the AT&T and E&Y guys out! Stand up for the morals that started and has kept the BSA strong!


  53. Oh, and frowny faces and cries of despair and rounds of applause and gasps or surprise and quotes from the bible/koran/talmud/constitution and of course, thanking god (or God) on both sides of the issue.

  54. Do it, and I’m gone. Along with everyone in my family.

  55. It will be the beginning of the end of scouts as we know. I pray that they don’t change it. Can’t ANY organization withstand the progressive, liberal agenda(s)? Stand with God, stand strong.

    Sent from my iPhone

    • No because the gay community insists to force themselves into every facet of our lives and will bully and sue anyone who doesn’t capitulate. They are a tiny minority of our country but thanks to the liberal media have tons of voice.

      So while they can say they despise those who don’t agree with their lifestyle, if we say the same about theirs we are accused of being hate filled bigots.

      • Rather than teaching our youth catch-all tolerance, we need to start teaching them moral principal, critical reasoning and sound judgment. They can take it from there.

        Tolerance isn’t even a virtue, although it’s as close as “progressive” secularists have to a virtue. It’s merely a reaction, and can be either good or bad depending on what is being tolerated.


      • Because the intolerant gay community will not be happy until they force themselves into every aspect of our lives. They obviously don’t have the resources or interest in starting their own organization, they want to force their way into one. For a group that is trying to push tolerance for anything they are sure intolerant of anyone that doesn’t agree with them.

      • Jo, I have been reading your comments all over here, and one theme is clear: you somehow feel like you are the aggrieved minority. I can appreciate, although I don’t share, your feeling that something that used to be condemned is now more openly tolerated, but you need to look past your feelings and do some good critical thinking here. Gay people are simply asking to be treated like anyone else. That is hardly “forcing themselves into every area of our lives.” They are not forcing you to be gay, they aren’t asking for special favors, just not to be discriminated against. Your comments about tolerance don’t make sense: people asking for tolerance are usually not going to be “tolerant” of the intolerant. That would be intellectual suicide. It seems you have a deep desire to get away from gay people… but they are around you everywhere. Many have spent years in the closet but are tired of that. They shouldn’t have to live in the shadows because people like you don’t feel comfortable around them. They are US citizens just like us, and human beings worthy of respect and dignity. You’ve made some other comments on here that show you are capable of looking at things from more than just one angle; I hope that you will carefully consider what I have said and also consider that this might be a great chance for you to experience how being around gay people ISN’T so awful.

      • How about an organization just for white people? Or just for brunette people? How about for people who are *just exactly like us* ? That way, we don’t ever have to be challenged to grow and accept people who are different, and we don’t ever have to have our prejudices challenged. Exclusion: yay!!!

  56. I have been involved with scouting since 1968, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Adult scout leader. if this passes I and my family will be finished and so will scouting. If I want to belong to a group of LGBT, I would join them. And if the national policy changes, the rest will have to follow, watch and see if you do not think so.

    • from what I understand, your unit would NOT be forced to change its policy and could keep gays out. other units could make different decisions.

      • But without the help and support of the BSA, smaller chartered organizations will be helpless to the onslaught and attacks they will receive for daring to have an opinion and standard supported by them and their units members.

    • I am so glad I was never a part of your Pack/Troop – a group that teaches narrow mindedness and bigotry. Either it lacked quality leadership, or you wasted your time in Scouts, because you failed to learn the real values of Scouting.

      Scouting is about raising future leaders, leaders who will be fair and open minded in their professional dealings. It is not about teaching them to be bigots, homosexuals, etc. So to label the future of Scouting as being a “group of LGBT” is far from the purpose of this great organization.

      In my 45+ years of Scouting, I have never heard of a discussion about sex or a fellow Scout or leader’s sexual orientation. It simply has no place in a Scout function. In fact, Scouting does not teach anything about sexuality, dating, or anything of this sort. If you and your fellow leaders have had such a conversation with your youth within a Scouting event, I forsee your name appearing on the banned leader list. Leave the preachings of sexual morality to the church, as it has no purpose in a Troop meeting.

  57. Its a slippery slope you tread on when an organization based on moral foundation, begins to waiver in its beliefs, especially when it is to a minority that will not be satisfied until its ideals are imposed upon everyone. The Boy Scouts of America should not waiver. Its not about sexual orientation. Its about the ideals of Scouting. It sounds like the Boy Scouts of America (National) are looking to absolve themselves of the responsibility of upholding those ideals. With that being said.

    Why change the Boy Scouts of America? Make your own Gay Scouts, Rainbow Scouts, Happy Scouts, BSGay, or whatever. Theres nothing stopping anyone from getting together and forming another organization especially if the beliefs of the current organization are not in line with your beliefs. For a group of people who are so secure in who they are and in what they believe it sure sounds like they rely on infringing their beliefs on others to make them feel better about themselves. This is America! do your own thing, go your own way, exercise your freedom! Many people paid good blood for it!

  58. I’ve served as a volunteer leader for over thirty years and I wholeheartedly support the change of policy. I have worked with gay Scouters and gay Scouts (with a number of Eagle Scouts among them) through the years. I can tell you, in one word, the difference between them and heterosexual Scouts and Scouters – nothing.

      • There are a lot of gay Eagle Scouts. But we have no idea how many, nor should we care. They satisfied the requirements for Eagle. They simply kept quiet about their sexuality while in scouting.

      • They are not true Eagle Scouts. They kept quiet going against being morally stright and trustworthy!

      • the policy is only 30 years old. what about those that earned the rank prior to that? what about boys that started scouts when they were 6 years old in the first grade, and earned their eagle prior to realizing that they were gay? i know of several boys in my district that recently earned their eagle at the age of 14. many men don’t realize that they are gay until much later in life. well into adulthood even. this is not black and white.

      • So they earned their Eagle by deception. That’s a great quality to promote. Hey Scouts, if you don’t like the rules feel free to lie and deceive your way around them. Its okay. Seriously?

      • no… the idea that an eagle earned by a gay scout was done so dishonestly is disingenuous. boys earn their eagle as early as age 14. it is very common for people to not realize that they are gay until they are much older. late teens, early twenties, even later.

        also… this official policy is only 30 years old. how many eagles were earned prior to that?

      • Do you really think that a 14-15 year old boy knows what he really is? He may not come to realize this until he’s an adult. So do you think he is lying and deceiving if he has not yet reached full adolescence?
        Sexuality has no place in scouting. I would not tolerate it in my troop between any combination of genders. We should not be asking a scout to decide now what his orientation is. But then you’ve already indicated that I am “intolerant and gay loving”. I’m glad you were never one of my son’s or grandson’s leaders.

    • Anyone who joined Scouting and lied about their sexual orientation that the BSA has previously made quite clear is not living up to the standards of the oath and law and practiced lying and deception, not qualities our Scouters should have. If they lied or deceived on any other issue people would be up in arms…

  59. Its a slippery slope you tread on when an organization based on moral foundation, begins to waiver in its beliefs, especially when it is to a minority that will not be satisfied until its ideals are imposed upon everyone. The Boy Scouts of America should not waiver. Sadly It sounds like the Boy Scouts of America are looking to absolve themselves of the responsibility of upholding those ideals. With that being said.

    Why change the Boy Scouts of America? Make your own Scouts, theres nothing stopping anyone from getting together and forming another organization especially if the beliefs of the current organization are not in line with your beliefs. This is America! do your own thing, go your own way, exercise your freedom! Many people paid good blood for it!

  60. Royal Rangers does not and will not accept homosexuals. Just call any Assemblies of God Church and tell them you want to be a commander. They will gladly accept you and your boys. Homosexuality is wrong and always will be wrong. Homosexuals can start their own Gas Scouts of America and make Obama their honorary president.

  61. Congratulations and Kudos to the Executive Board of the BSA. Giving the Chartered Organizations the option to determine certain membership standards in their units makes perfect sense. Let’s face it, there are gay scout leaders in every district in every council in the BSA, and they are great leaders, teaching and emulating great values, and they are Gay!. The ignorant rant that homosexuals are also pedophiles is nothing more than uneducated tripe.

    The BSA needs to remain relevant in TODAY’s society, not languish in the 50’s. This is the best way they can do that. By allowing chartered partners to hold onto their own exclusionary practices the church (LDS or others) don’t have to allow gays to serve as leaders, but it allows those that want to serve our youth, and be out, to do so in more tolerant units. It allows them to be trustworthy. There are units now that allow gay leaders, they just don’t point them out to the council leadership for expulsion as some would like.

    This is a huge step in the absolute right direction.

  62. I suspect that many of the folks who are lamenting this possible change of policy, are the same folks who are complaining about mandates from big government in Washington. They would tell you that people on the local level know what’s best for them and how dare our leaders in Washington tell them what to do. In this case, I happen to agree with them. I think in scouting, people on the local level know what’s best for their own children and should have the right to select their own membership.
    Do people really think they were going to do something to hurt our own children? If God loves children and fools, I’m in good company!

  63. I suppose we’ll see who really cares about youth and who cares about rhetoric. I’m hoping that most chartered organizations will basically continue with business as usual regardless of the outcome, so scouts can go to camp, work on advancement, and develop their leadership skills.

    If National does change their policy, I encourage all chartered organizations to simply move on as before. Don’t make the gay policy an issue one way or another until it becomes an issue. Wait till you have a parent leader or a youth member whose orientation makes it an issue, and then decide if you want to throw the person out.

    • Once national changes the ACLU will be able to force all units to allow gay. Don’t think it won’t happen!

      • Sadly you are right. With National wiping its hands of it and not helping support and defend their chartered “partners” they will be forced to capitulate. I’ve already talked to one COR who is recommending that his units find a new chartered organization because though he and the officers of his organization disagree with the proposed change there is no way they can defend it or make an official stance against it due to political correctness stupidity. They are willing to donate money and resources to help and continue supporting the unit financially but will not charter any more umits.

  64. Doesn’t the BSA allow boys with other birth defects into scouting? If so, why not homosexuality? The real tragedy is that no one seems to be searching for a cure for this defect. It’s simple biology, sexual intercourse is for procreation, not simply for pleasure. As humans we’ve taken it to some extremely perverse levels, but sex between humans is for reproducing our species. Men cannot have a child together, and neither can two women, period. If so, we would be asexual creatures.

    Back to scouting, it’s almost dead anyway because they have watered down the programs to a point that they are no longer effective. All in the name of “safety”. (which really only means National absolving themselves of all liability)

    • TM, There is no cure for terminal stupidity either.
      G/L couples do not necessarily get or stay together because of sex any more than heterosexual couples do. If that were the case, most married couples would be separated.

    • Oh my goodness, the ignorance. Sex is not just for procreation. If it were, then I guess seniors should divorce, since they can’t produce children anymore? And people who can’t physically have children (or don’t want any) should also divorce?

      And if homosexuality is a choice…. well, why don’t you tell me the story of when you chose heterosexuality.

  65. Morally straight. I say it every week at the scout meeting with the scouts and the other leaders. Those two words have no other meanings. Morals are based on religious tenants, not humanistic tenants. Our charter organization pulled out of the national denominational church conference because of their stance towards homosexuality. Leaving this up to each individual chartered scout troop would open this up to multiple lawsuits because of the national organizations’ stance towards allowing those of “varying sexual orientation” entry to the Boy Scouts of America. I, along with my family, would never accept this policy change in scouting.

    • Error, nice having you and don’t let the screen door hit you on the way out. We don’t need to teach the youth in our charge bigotry and hatred. But what will you do if your son comes to you and tells you he’s gay? Kick him out of the house? Nice family values.

      • Oh yeah look at your own intolerance. Someone disagrees with you and you tell them to leave. Typical intolerant pro gay agenda tactics.

        I’ll bet you support the gay leaders and “Eagle Scouts” who got their positions and ranks by lying and deception. Are these the “nice family values” you have in your home, lie and deceive others if you don’t like the rules?

      • You seem to be a sad, sad person. It is unfortunate that we have people such as you in positions of authority. First, Error claimed he would not accept this policy and if he would not accept it, then he’d be leaving right? I thanked him for his service and offered him the door. I don’t belive that the BSA movement has any place for bigots or the ignorant. I am old enough to remember when my troop would not allow blacks to join. Would you reject a scout because he’d black? This is no different.
        And as far as family values, you seem to be short of them yourself. As you accuse me of encouraging lying and deceit. With Error, I simply asked him the question of what he’d do.
        If my son came to me and announced he was gay, I would accept it, maybe I’d not be happy, but I’d accept it.

      • If my son came out to me I would love him just the same. However I would not let him stay in Scouts because teaching my son to lie and deceive people is wrong. There would be plenty of other organizations that would welcome him.

    • Morals are not just about sexuality. They are about honestly, loyalty, integrity, etc. As well as things like not lying, not stealing, etc. And humanistic tenants usually contain those as well.

    • If this happens, I as a Scoutmaster will resign. I am glad my 2 son made Eagle Scout before the BSA falls apart.

  66. The policy of letting each chartered organization decide makes so much sense. Especially given that the BSA is open to all religions, and religions have differing views.

    My only thought on this is – why didn’t the BSA do this ten years ago?

  67. Wow, I can hardly believe the comments here. One would think we were in the 18th century full of religious elitists. No one cares who you hate. Boy Scouts has never been about how to date girls. It’s about teaching young men to be leaders in the free world. And personally, this is the best route for the BSA to take. Leave it up to the chartered organizations. If you want a group full of haters, fine, have your group. If you want a group full of boys who show all the merits of the scout law, have that group too, good. There was a time when African-Americans couldn’t be in the same troop as whites. But people realized it was wrong and fixed it. This isn’t the end of boy scouting, it’s a new chapter to something larger and better.

  68. What a monumental cave-in on the national level, coupled with a nightmare on the local level. Now one of the things prospective Scouts and families will have to consider, among all the others, when considering Troops is whether the chartering organization allows gays to join. Can’t wait to see how this will affect facilities and accommodations at Jamborees.

  69. I joined BSA because they don’t allow Gays and Lesbians join! Where can I go that the “Gay Agenda” isn’t shoved down my throat and I can teach my children my values and beliefs without being beaten up!


      • That was an ignorant and typical intolerant pro gay comment. If anyone doesn’t agree with your point of view you’ll label them and insult them which makes you just as intolerant and bigoted.

        On a related note, how do you know that the poster wasn’t from an African American family before suggesting that they join the KKK. You really owe them an apology, that was a disgusting thing to say and only shows how truly intolerant you are. You should be ashamed.

      • Yeah I figured you would shrug it off and not worry about it. The fact that you can’t apologize for suggesting that someone you don’t agree with join the KKK says a lot about your lack of character.

      • Well you missed the comment where I stated that I’m sorry if my comment was offensive. I also find it offensive that people would seek to exclude gay kids from scouts.

      • for the record:
        January 29, 2013 @ 8:53 am
        i’ve dished out filth because i am in favor of allowing LGBT individuals into scouting? my KKK comment was extreme, yes, but it is a hate group. i simply said if someone wants to be part of a hate group, that is a valid option. honestly, though, if that offended someone, i’m sorry for that.

  70. Actually, this simply follows the model we already use for religious standards imposed by units. Scouting is a program that is chartered to community or religious organization to provide to their youth, and, IF THEY WISH, the youth of their community.

    Thus, a units chartered organization already has the right to impose its own membership requirements on and leaders, as well as BSA’s. Some units already restrict membership to only youth belonging to the sponsoring church. When that occurs, it’s the district’s obligation to make sure there is another unit nearby for youth that don’t fit that unit’s criteria.

    Since some churches already accept that homosexual members meet the tenets of their faith, and some do not, it makes sense that they will now each get to establish membership requirements for their own particular units. It’s also not a big deal as sex education is NOT a mission of BSA and the YPP already protects kids from predators of all orientations.

    And, once again, your own personal religious views have no universal place in Scouting, just as your personal political ones do not either.

  71. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion & to make their own choices regarding membership. I am Christian yet the church denomination I belong do does not discriminate against the LGBT community. BSA is tolerant of other religions, but not of differences within the Christian community? From what I read no charter organization would be forced to accept member, so belong to a troop in a charter organization that aligns itself with your beliefs. Be true to your principles & allow me to be true to mine.

  72. I think we can handle this with maturity, and find a way to make it work for us all. Remember. We are looking at the concept of Charter Organization Choice, not forcing inclusion on all. So, if, for religious reasons, your charter Org. sees it as immoral behavior to include folks who are gay, then you will be able to do so. And if, your charter organization sees it as immoral to exclude, then you will have the freedom to be inclusive. It would be great, if as Americans, we could recognize that we have people from many different religions in scouting, not just those who see homosexuality as immoral. Fortunately, we live in a country where no one religious group is allowed to force its particular take on morality on the rest of the country. We know what happens when that is legally possible. Not good.
    I know that for some of you reading what I have written, your religious belief system teaches you to see what I have written as immoral. This makes me incredibly sad. I’m involved in scouting because I believe in helping develop great citizens who are effective and involved leaders in a pluralistic society. I want that for as many youth as is possible. Charter organization choice is the most elegant (albeit imperfect) solution to this issue. I’m 100% behind it. There will be difficulties to work out, but we’re scouts. We know how to solve difficult challenges, especially if we live the scout oath and law, keeping in mind that no single religion gets to tell us all what Duty to God, Morally Straight and Reverent means. Our country was founded, in part, by people who wanted to be able to practice their religion in a way that worked for them, and not have the religious believes of others imposed upon them. The solution of charter organization choice seems to be about as American as could be.

  73. Let’s see We begin by saying “To do my best to do my duty to God…..” and we finish with “keep myself morally straight”. I don’t hear anything about hate in that. As adults we are to provide as safe an environment as we can to provide young boys the opportunity to build that relationship with God and others. Mistakes have been made, but the process works, the principle is clear, and the system is as good as we can make it based on what have learned over time. This is not the time to cave. Scouting works as long as we adhere to Scouting principles. Look at what happened when the Girl Scouts caved.

    • That part of the scout oath is referring to having good morals, and as an adult you of all people should be accepting and understanding, What if you son/daughter went right up to you and said “Dad I’m Gay” what would you do?

      • I’d give him a big hug and let him know that I love him. That statement wouldn’t change my feelings about my son.

      • I would obviously support him but he would have to pull out h our of Scouts because doing anything else would be teaching him that lying and deception are perfectly okay.

  74. Hello All

    I am a youth Life Scout, Brotherhood OA member, and someone who finds this current policy on sexual orientation pretty down right stupid. For those who brought up the bible earlier, You might want to realize that the scout law say “Reverent” not christian. Rev·er·ent [rev-er-uhnt, rev-ruhnt]
    feeling, exhibiting, or characterized by reverence; deeply respectful: a reverent greeting,Webster Dictionary.

    The whole idea of scouting is to make the youth of the world learn valuable life skills and have fun.

    AND 90% of the molestation cases around youth are done by STRAIGHT Married men in there mid 30-40, who just aren’t getting it from there wife anymore.

    Yours Truly

    A Youth Scout That Cares

    • Please quote/cite sources when you throw out statistics. Additionally I would question sources that have little grasp on English. Their, not “there mid 30-40”

      • So now we have taken to correcting grammar and spelling of a youth who is brave enough to say what he feels. I, for one, am very happy that he felt strongly enough about his convictions to post knowing he was going against the grain. I think it says a lot about what the program has done for him already. Keep on standing up for your beliefs, Youth!

  75. The biggest concern I have is the National office hanging their CO’s out to dry. What resources will they provide for the stream of lawsuits that will be filled against their member organizations. How will National protect against endangerment and libility lawsuits? How will they aim to keep their membership if the LDS Church, Evangelicals, Protestants, and Catholics which comprise well over 60 percent of Charter Organizations and over 75% of youth and adult membership decide to leave? We all know this is not the end. The LGBT Community will not stop until they get their way in every organization public and private in the U.S. . Lord Baden Powell founded the Boy Scouts on the tenants of the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Duty to God and Country. Trustworthy, reverent, and clean. These are the fundamentals of what makes Scouting great. They have remained unchanged until 2013 when all of that is out the window. Now the National Board wants to turn over the organizations standards and values to those who lie to God, are not clean, and have different morals. This is not about civil rights it is about the minority placing in jeopardy the majority. National and two board members have allowed the entire BSA to be hijacked. The SCOTUS affirmed the BSA’s ability to make its own rules. There is no inalienable right to belong to a private organization. The LGBT Community is more than free to start their own organization. This is a Pandora’s Box the BSA should leave closed.

  76. For the last 34 years, I have been Scoutmaster of a community troop chartered to a Reform Synagogue. None of our Scouts or leaders are members of the synagogue. The synagogue charters the troop as a community service.

    If you look at the Union for Reform Judaism statement of “What is Reform Judaism?” at it states:
    •Reform Jews are committed to the principle of inclusion, not exclusion. Since 1978 the Reform Movement has been reaching out to Jews-by-choice and interfaith families, encouraging them to embrace Judaism. Reform Jews consider children to be Jewish if they are the child of a Jewish father or mother, so long as the child is raised as a Jew.
    •Reform Jews are committed to the absolute equality of women in all areas of Jewish life. We were the first movement to ordain women rabbis, invest women cantors and elect women presidents of our synagogues.
    •Reform Jews are also committed to the full participation of gays and lesbians in synagogue life as well as society at large.

    Different religions definitely have different positions on the sexual orientation issue. Reform Judaism believes in inclusiveness.

    The Union for Reform Judaism has told synagogues they should not charter Boy Scout troops because of BSA’s sexual orientation policy. However, our chartered partner has stuck with our troop and crew while working within BSA to try to get BSA’s sexual orientation policy changed so they can adopt rules for our troop and crew consistent with their religion. They are not asking other chartered partners to do the same. However, they definitely would endorse a policy in which “the BSA would not require any chartered organization to act in ways inconsistent with that organization’s mission, principles, or religious beliefs.”

    • this is a perfect example of why this current policy is actually antithetical the the values that are supposedly upheld in scouting.

      also a perfect illustration of why the proposed new policy makes absolute sense.

      • Because you are obviously a model of tolerance, right? Oh wait, no you are not you suggest that people who disagree with you go join hate groups…

      • yes, i suggested that a person that was looking for a group that can continue to practice bigotry join a group that practices bigotry. do you have anything else to say? move on already…

      • was it you that also continued to state that intolerance of intolerance is intolerant? i’m getting dizzy trying to sort that out. i’m actually a pretty tolerant individual.

      • Unless someone mentions their religious beliefs or has an opinion that differs from yours then you ridicule and mock them.

  77. A scout is … Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent … The law applies to us all, adults and youth members. I would respectfully suggest that all those who have made comments here today ask themselves if their comment meets these standards. There is a little too much vitriol here.

  78. If this hapoens the nembership will tumble and boy scouts will not longer be Boy Scouts anymore because they will lose their identity. Kindly we need to protect our children’s inosense. God loves all children no matter what, but it makes Him sad when we behave in an inappropriate manner. It is sad because it affects all the children involved in scouts. Very sad indeed. Let the children be children and do not steal their inosense with agendas of few people.

    “O holy protector of the holy family, protect us children of the Lord Jesus Christ; keep far from us the errors and evils which corrupt the world; assist us from Heaven in our struggles against the powers of darkness. And as you once protected the Divine Child from the cruel edict of Herod, now defend the Church and and keep it safe from all dangers and threats. Spread over all of us your holy patronage so that by following your example and aided by your spiritual guidance, we may all aspire to a virtuous life, look to a holy death, and secure for ourselves the blessing of eternal happiness in Heaven. “

  79. I have no problem with people being gay, it’s their choice…their sin. I have sins of my own to deal with. What I do have is a problem with is what opening this door in GSA did to that program. It brought in many gay women trying to push their agenda on the program at hand and brought about a huge change. It also became a hotbed of controversy that affected the girls that the program served. It also brought in gender-confused boys and exposed young children to issues and ideas that the majority of parents bringing their girls to scouting did not sign up for.
    I have 3 young boys in BSA. They have been a part of the program since my oldest was 7 years old (my youngest were 4). We have been a part of the program for the past 7 years as parents, as leaders and as supporters. Yes, we are Christian, we believe that homosexuality is a sin, so is divorce, gluttony, greed, etc…. We have same-sex parents in our group. They are good parents, they have good kids. I cannot judge one sin as worse than another. Herein lies my problem. At ages when I a beginning discussions with my sons about sexuality I will be forced to have discussion about homosexuality?! In my opinion (my values, beliefs) I cannot teach my child to be upright if I must constantly be surrounded by those who ‘wallow’ in sinfulness and try to discredit my vow of HOLY matrimony by forcing upon me a PC version of marriage? I am sorry, but I am disappointed by the BSA’s possible choice. If this comes to pass, we will have to leave. Not for fear of somebody doing something to my children (homosexuals are not pedophiles), but rather because I strive daily to lead my children to live in the world seeking a holy living, pleasing to God…not of this world. My bible is my standard, sorry if that offends anyone. I will continue to have guarded relationships with those who live blatant sinful lives, but my children do not need to live immersed in it or a part of an organization that has no boundaries which I have held in high esteem. I am sorry if this offends anyone, but I pay taxes, pay dues to BSA and have a God-given right to voice my opinion and have it counted too.

    • your issue is that you may have to discuss the existence of same sex couples with your children? if you don’t want to discuss it, don’t. if they ask, do you need to talk about sex? if my son were to ask, at age 7, why so and so has 2 dads i would tell him that all families are different. this is ours, that is theirs and it’s their business. (that’s basically what i said when my son asked why he doesn’t have a dad). and doesn’t the fact that kids with same sex parents existing in their school mean that they don’t have to be in the scout pack or troop to cause your kids to wonder about their existence? gay people exist. they are in society. if you don’t want to talk to your kids about it, then don’t i guess. why should your insecurities exclude others from a group that you belong to? they have the right to belong as well.

      • Beth do you have respect for anyone’s views but your own. Your complete intolerance to the people who oppose the change is the same or actually worse as the opinions of those you seem to enjoy attacking. I thought the gay agenda was all about complete inclusion. Oh your agenda doesn’t? No surprise there.

      • i believe that all people have the right to their own personal beliefs. all people don’t however, have the right to take action to limit another’s rights based on their own personal beliefs. my right to swing my fist stops at the end of any other person’s nose. as does everyone else’s. i absolutely believe in inclusion.

    • and. i also pay taxes and BSA dues. i’m pleased that there may be real progress in reversing this discriminatory policy.

      • Beth,
        I have not taken action to limit another’s rights based on my personal beliefs. I have joined a group that upheld the same values and morals that I believe in. Other’s have taken the action to limit my rights based on their belief. They can start their own organization, just leave the one I chose alone. I am being discriminated upon. The rules were in place long before any of us here joined. Join or don’t join…
        It’s not discrimination…it’s a choice in a private organization. I don’t feel discriminated because I can’t join the VFW or ask money from the African American College Fund. I just know what my limits are and respect the way those organization serve their members. Sorry, if you don’t like the restrictions, move on…find/make a new organization.
        The implications of this type of caving in from our National Organization really has nothing to do with the individual boys, but rather with the funding it will lose if it doesn’t change its’ ways.
        Right now, in America, there is a push to legalize Marijuana. Some states have done so. The argument is that it harms no one, is natural and is a personal choice. My question is this; when someone, with their own agenda decides to push this issue and make it policy that we have to accept openly admitted pot smokers as leaders, how will you feel then? Really…what is the difference? How will you feel about placing your 7 year old with that person as a role model? Isn’t our current anti-smoking or anti-drinking policies discriminatory? Don’t I have a right to do what is constitutionally legal? As you can see….without boundaries anything goes. We, the BSA, are a private organization and have a Constitutional right to make our own set of rules, based on our beliefs. Up to this point I have thought the BSA and my household to believe in the same thing. IF this goes through, our belief system will no longer line up. I will be forced to make a decision about what I want to be involved in. As I said before…I have joined a group that upheld the same values and morals that I believe in. Other’s are taking action to limit my rights based on their belief. I am being discriminated against. BSA is my organization, with it’s requirements clearly stated, I understood them…I joined….

  80. I hope they do. Boy Scouts are reverent but not to a specific religion. The scouts I have been asked about this view have a hard time with the bane running up against the Boy Scout Law. Some of parents in the Pack I am in have already voted by pulling their kids out.

  81. Has anyone noticed the Thumbs Up, Thumbs Down, rating system on here is a bit segued , and it seems to align with Liberal, Pro-Gay/Lesbian view point.

  82. I joined the Boy Scouts of America in 1949 and the great things I learned as a12 yr old has lasted me all theses years I have been a Boy scout Leader for 30 yrs. and have been a loyal supporter of the BSA. I am very sad that the things I taught to my young scouts according to the policies of the BSA have suddenly become wrong in the eyes of some of the members of the BSA. I always believed that the National BSA would stand for the principles of BSA teachings that laid the foundations of morality in our youth. I am not writing about wether homosexuality is right or wrong that should be left to the choice of that individual and his concience. Everyone should have the right to chose their own path to follow however sometimes those chosen paths have obstacles and once in a while new choices require taking the choices away from established principles. How much time and money has the BSA spent to defend the policy of not allowing open homosexuals in the BSA over the years I would like to add that some of that money came from me and thousands of others. The U.S Supreme Court ruled that the BSA policy on Homosexual exclusion is constitutional because the BSA is a private organization. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and our scouting program has a deep commitment to obey the laws of God. The Church teachings are not compatible to any changes by men if they conflict with Gods laws. Does this mean homosexuality in the BSA is in and long established Church teaching’s for our youth are out? Time will tell. The pending policy of allowing homosexuality Scout’s in the BSA program will be the most devisive issue to ever happen in the BSA. I fear a lot of Church sponsered Boy Scout units will withdraw their charters and chose a new program for their youth. How many lawsuits will be brought against the organizations that will not chose the BSA policy of allowing homosexuals in their units there will be plenty make no mistake about it. With National BSA’s indorsement of homosexual’s the groundwork for law suits are unavoidable. Sincerely,
    Trenton Spears

    • I too am a member of the LDS Church and a scout leader. I’m afraid that the views you expressed are not in-line with the Church’s teachings. Please visit the Church’s website on the matter: It makes clear that you can be gay, or have same-sex attraction, and be a member in good standing (enter the temple, pass the sacrement, etc.) as long as they do not act on those attractions. In otherwords not break the law of chastity. Why then could a boy who is gay pass the sacrement but not particpate in scouting? Seem controdictory to me. If the BSA changes their policy it would bring it more in-line with the LDS Church’s current policy. I hope and pray that the BSA changes its policy on gay membership

      • Thanks for that contribution. It is an aspect of mormonism that is not often brought up in discussions such as these.

      • Exactly. This whole “gay mormon” thing is relatively new (you can probably tell me the date) but the fact that the LDS church is now trying to appear more friendly toward gays is probably the main reason BSA is considering this change now.

        It looks like the LDS church sent some of their PR people over to BSA to show them how to deal with this whole “gay thing”, and this policy change is the likely result.

      • Scouting Dave you are right about the point that you can be homosexual and still be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- Day saints. What is confusing is how can someone can be homosexual and not act upon those beliefs. Contact with individuals is very personal and hard to maintain in a same sex relationship if they are Christians. There is no way a person can be homosexuals and not act upon those chosen lifestyles. If homosexuals were that religous they would not choose that lifestyle knowing it would confict with the teachings of the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day. Dave I believe you are trying to say that it is okay that you are gay and lie about your choice of sames sex activity it is simply not obtainable if you are a Christian. It is like a members who are gay don’t pay any attention to the King James Bible or Book of Mormon their teachings are wrong and the Church supports the act of homosexuality. I believe the Church is trying to be a mediator between the person who is gay and Jesus Christ and if you choose the homosexual lifestyle please don’t participate in the sinful act just hang in there till you someday you will be completely converted to the covenants you made with Jesus Christ at your Baptism. If you attend Church, pass the Sacrament and have a current Temple recommend to attend the House of the Lord you are required by God himself to maintain your faith in all of the teachings of of the Church Dave I believe that my comments are certainly in line with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and will do my best to maintain a relationship with God the Father and his son Jesus Christ the Savior of the World. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • Beth if the teaching’s of any Church conflict with God the Father and his son Jesus Christ teachings I will most certainly disagree with that Church and will run not walk out the front door and leave Satan behind. Your comments lack any sustance and certainly misguided. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not now or ever will promote homosexualty as exceptable doctrine in any form. The LDS Church teach’s the principles of conversion and repentance for all the teachings of Jesus Christ. Just because the LDS Church except’s homosexuals as members does not mean that they except the act of homosexuality they certainly do not. Please take the time to research the LDS Church’s teachings on the matter of homosexuality. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

      • So. Like I said, if your church teaches that homosexuals are ok with god as long as they do not commit homosexual acts, why can’t they get that same deal with the scouts? If they are right with god, how is it any of your business?

      • Beth you have made a statement that is certainly not true the LDS Church does not teach that homosexuality is okay with God. It teaches that same sex relationships are a sin and must be not be acted upon if they are to remain members of the LDS Church. There will be a time and place that homosexual members will have to completely repent and renew their covenants with God and to ask Gods forgiveness for their belief in homosexuality and that it is a sin and not part of Gods plan. Beth are you saying that homosexuals members should have a pass on the sin of homosexuality just because they are not practicing the act. What is the point of being homosexual if you don’t act upon the choice of having sex with another homosexual if you don’t act upon it you are not homosexual. Lies against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are my business and I will stand as a witness of the truths of the Gospel at all times and in all places that includes my membership in the BSA.

      • Dave unlike you I am posting the position of the Mormon Church on Homosexuality that you refered to in your comments. Here they are straight the from the Mormon website. Please read it. Where the Mormon Church stands on homosexuality, Quote:
        The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.
        The Church’s approach to this issue stands apart from society in many ways. And that’s alright. Reasonable people can and do differ. From a public relations perspective it would be easier for the Church to simply accept homosexual behavior. That we cannot do, for God’s law is not ours to change. There is no change in the Church’s position of what is morally right. But what is changing — and what needs to change — is to help Church members respond sensitively and thoughtfully when they encounter same-sex attraction in their own families, among other Church members, or elsewhere. Jesus Christ commanded us to love our neighbors. Whether sinner or saint, rich or poor, stranger or friend, everyone in God’s small world is our neighbor, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. Latter-day Saints believe that our true commitment to Christian teachings is revealed by how we respond to this commandment. This love is tested every day of our lives. We may know individuals with same-sex attraction in our workplaces, congregations and town halls. As people with hopes, fears and aspirations like everyone else, these neighbors deserve our love. But we can’t truly love the neighbors next door if we don’t love the neighbors under our own roof. Family members with same-sex attraction need our love and understanding. God loves all his children alike, much more than any of us can comprehend, and expects us to follow.Unquote:
        I hope this clears up any misconceptions about the Mormon Church’s position on the homosexuality issue and that it is against God laws which are unchangeable as the Mormon Church believes.

    • Step 1: Get companies to have “inclusive” charitable giving guidelines. – DONE
      Step 2: Pressure companies to restrict donating, because longstanding support no longer meets new guidelines. – DONE
      Step 3: Pressure organizations to have “inclusive” membership guidelines so they can get donations back. – DONE
      Step 4: Let Chartering organizations “decide” – EXPECTED NEXT WEEK
      Step 5: Insist that the Board appoint new LGBT members to show support for new policy. EXPECTED SEPT 2013
      Step 6: Repeat steps at regional and council level.

      Zach Wahls, whose group (Scouting for Equality) has been working for more inclusive rules under the motto, “A scout is equal,” said he applauded the change.
      “It’s a step in the right direction, and good to see that B.S.A. is softening its position,” he said. “But under the policy change, it will still be possible for some units to discriminate.”

      –Yep – there is your path forward – Local units can decide, and then we will attack them.

      Your PTA can set up a Troop or Den, but your school can’t support religion, so can you just take out that whole God thing?

      Learning about sexuality is an important health consideration – something Scouts need to learn about in order to protect themselves – Prepared.ForLife right? Chap 25 in your Bear Handbook – Human Sexuality –

      Why does it seem like I have seen this all before?

  83. “Scouting for Boys” used to be just the name of Lord Baden-Powell’s book. It seems that now it will also be the avocation of some of our leaders.

      • A Scout is Reverent.
        A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

        any my beliefs don’t say that Homosexuality is a sin..

      • Legally 16 year olds are over the age of consent. As much as youthfulnes is prized in feminine beauty, it’s even more prized by homosexuals. Open that gate and there will be a flood.

    • I hate to tell you this, but pedophiles involved in Scouting were already “Scouting for Boys”.

    • There is zero data to back up your assertion linking pedophilia and homosexuality. In fact, the BSA has long had trouble with sexual abuse, despite its ban on gays. Let’s please be respectful, rely on real data, and avoid crud humor in our discussions.

  84. from what I am reading, each unit (pack, troop, team) would be able to make their own decisions – so if a unit was chartered to a group that did not want to include gays, then they would not be forced to. OTOH, if a unit was chartered to a group that did want to include gays, they could. It would be a unit by unit decision. So you could find a unit that matched your views on the subject.

    • Yes, Martha, but allowing homosexuals in any Boy Scout troop may open the door for furthur moral degeneration.

      • No, Lisa, we should not hate homosexuals, but many families do not want their sons to grow up around them. They (and I) would rather have our sons be around people who believe in traditional marriage: thus, between a man and woman.

    • The problem is a legal one. What happens when Units cancel camp plans or Pow Wow plans because they will not put their youth in a potentially compromising position of dealing with homosexuality in a place where it has NEVER been an issue before? The LGBT Community has lawyers on standby to file discrimination lawsuits. Who protects the Chartered Organization? Used to be National. Now the Chartering Organizations would be cut loose. Some of the CO’s are community churches with limited funds. They will be forced to simply shut down their programs.

      • After reading many of the comments I have to say that most commentors have missed the main reason for the pending change in allowing Homosexuals into the BSA Program. Has anyone heard of United Way? They were huge supporters of the BSA organizations all over the United States and over the last ten years their contributions to the BSA have dried up. Many Councils relied on their support to be able to keep the Council a float including my local Council. The reason was the BSA excluded Homosexuals from the program. Money has become more important than morals and this is the reason for change by the National BSA. Many business organizations have followed the United Way in their dropping all funding for the BSA. I believe that the National has made a gamble that they will increase more members and funding if they would make the change to its program. When I look at the way our Nation is losing its moral compass it is not surprising to me that this pending change would make its way into the last stand for morality in our Nation, the Boy Scouts of America. It has been a great run for 103 years and I have been honored to be a volunteer for such a honorable and moral organization for our youth for the last 30 years. I pray that wiser heads will prevail and find a way to support the traditional BSA without giving up its principles. God Bless the BSA

      • Has anyone heard of Mormon Church and the Catholic Church? They are huge supporters of the BSA organizations, primarily in the Southern and Western parts of the country, where BSA moved their headquarters in 1979.

        BSA feared that if they admitted gays, Mormon and Catholic contributions to the BSA would dry up. Many Councils rely on Mormon and Catholic support to be able to keep the Council a float.

        The Mormon and Catholic churches are the reasons that the BSA has excluded Homosexuals from the program for so long. Money had become more important than morals and this is the reason National BSA has refused to change until now. I believe that the National has made the calculation that they will increase more members and funding if they would make the change to its program.

        When I look at the way our Nation is becoming more aware of, and welcoming of the diversity among us, it is not surprising to me that this pending change would make its way into one of the most prominent advocates for morality for the children of all families in America, not just for a few churches, the Boy Scouts of America.

      • I am a member of the LDS Church and a scout leader. I’m afraid that the views you expressed are not in-line with the Church’s teachings. Please visit the Church’s website on the matter: It makes clear that you can be gay, or have same-sex attraction, and be a member in good standing (enter the temple, pass the sacrament, etc.) as long as they do not act on those attractions. In other words not break the law of chastity. Why then could a boy who is gay pass the sacrament but not participate in scouting? Seem contradictory to me. If the BSA changes their policy it would bring it more in-line with the LDS Church’s current policy. I hope and pray that the BSA changes its policy on gay membership

      • I am aware that “you can be gay, or have same-sex attraction, and be a member in good standing” in the LDS church. But that has not always been the case. Do you know the date that this statement was first published by the LDS church?

      • Where the Mormon Church stands on homosexuality:
        The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.
        The Church’s approach to this issue stands apart from society in many ways. And that’s alright. Reasonable people can and do differ. From a public relations perspective it would be easier for the Church to simply accept homosexual behavior. That we cannot do, for God’s law is not ours to change. There is no change in the Church’s position of what is morally right. But what is changing — and what needs to change — is to help Church members respond sensitively and thoughtfully when they encounter same-sex attraction in their own families, among other Church members, or elsewhere.
        Jesus Christ commanded us to love our neighbors. Whether sinner or saint, rich or poor, stranger or friend, everyone in God’s small world is our neighbor, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. Latter-day Saints believe that our true commitment to Christian teachings is revealed by how we respond to this commandment. This love is tested every day of our lives. We may know individuals with same-sex attraction in our workplaces, congregations and town halls. As people with hopes, fears and aspirations like everyone else, these neighbors deserve our love. But we can’t truly love the neighbors next door if we don’t love the neighbors under our own roof. Family members with same-sex attraction need our love and understanding. God loves all his children alike, much more than any of us can comprehend, and expects us to follow.

      • Let’s be clear, money has always been more important to BSA than actually bringing young men up properly, and providing good programming. My local council is notorious for preferring the money of safety, as was clear when a local scouter was awarded the Heroism award for saving the life of a Webelo, who he nearly got killed in the first place.

      • Disregard that comment. Stepped away from my computer in public. Some other student tried to be funny, but was not.

      • The United Way pulled back roughly 50% in the 90s already. There are other places to come up with money.

      • Our units have not done council run Scout camps in years and have not missed it so this is not an issue for us. In our council camp staff there are some very openly gay staffers (the two I know are great young men but nonetheless should not be Scouters because of the policy) but our Council Executives and quite a few Scouters ignore the policy and just turn a blind eye towards it. Though people complain privately no one wants to get in a conflict with council.

      • See, and here’s the problem. I’m pretty sure Jo Pop that you just invalidated the argument of one side. ‘They’re great young men’. I know the young men of whom you speak (I’m not sure if you’re right about them either way, but I know who you refer to). And I’ll agree with you, they are outstanding. So who are we to dictate whether or not they should contribute? They obviously have skills that camp needs and/or benefits from. The other Scouts look up to them – and not because of their lifestyle (or not). They don’t openly declare it so they fall under the current ‘Don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy of National which means there is nothing Council should do as far as I know. I know our Council would be poorer without those individuals. And if anything was done to drive them out, we’d all have lost something of ourselves in the process. This is the pain that I feel – we have these young men that start as Tigers, Wolves, and Bears who may not know their sexuality who develop into stellar Scouts. But we’re saying YOU can’t participate anymore because you don’t like girls? There’s no justice in that. These young men (or not, because I’m not fully convinced they’re both gay) deserve recognition for their time, energy and achievements. Why can’t we judge them based on that?

      • It’s definitely not an easy situation. With the youth we are referring to, I enjoy them both and have had a lot of time with both before they made any declarations. It actually is because of my respect for the younger of the two (who I agree is not sure what he is right now) that I am torn on the issue.

        It does bother me that the policies are being ignored and things are being overlooked because I wonder what are we teaching the Scouts who are watching this from the sidelines. But then go back to what I said about the younger one in particular.

        The people that actively support the gay agenda are not helping by being so closed minded themselves. All sides need to be respected here and if this comes to pass, the gay youth and leaders and their supporters need to be sensitive to those of us who have to accept this. But they as a group are not patient at all which will just aggravate the situation and prolong the division and carnage.

        The changes seem to be inevitable but it’s going to take time to get people on board.

        National also has a lot of work to do if they pass this before they should implement it, training, policies, youth protection rules updates, etc. If it is going to happen then let’s make sure it happens the right way.

        So did I just change my opinion? I don’t think so. But depending on how this goes and how the activists react and carry on if it does happen will decide a lot for me.

      • Sorry, lost track of this conversation – the blog doesn’t show everything active unfortunately. Jo, that’s all anyone can ask for. Thank you.

      • Jo, you seem like a wise person and an asset to scouting. If everyone, from either side, approaches the potential change as you suggest – with respect for each other, with the effort to really listen to others and to reflect on things from their point of view, and with an eye towards any change happening with full support – training, etc – done in the right way, then all should be well.
        I hope that on all levels the conversation can be as thoughtful and respectful as it has generally been here, and that folks on both sides can gently rein in anyone on their side of things who steps over the line of civility.

      • Has anyone heard of Mormon Church and the Catholic Church? They are huge supporters of the BSA organizations, primarily in the Southern and Western parts of the country, where BSA moved their headquarters in 1979.

        BSA feared that if they admitted gays, Mormon and Catholic contributions to the BSA would dry up. Many Councils rely on Mormon and Catholic support to be able to keep the Council a float including my local Council.

        The Mormon and Catholic churches are the reasons that the BSA has excluded Homosexuals from the program for so long. Money had become more important than morals and this is the reason National BSA has refused to change until now. I believe that the National has made the calculation that they will increase more members and funding if they would make the change to its program.

        When I look at the way our Nation is becoming more aware of, and welcoming of the diversity among us, it is not surprising to me that this pending change would make its way into one of the most prominent advocates for morality for the children of all families in America, not just for a few churches, the Boy Scouts of America.

      • I am a member of the LDS Church and a scout leader. I’m afraid that the views you expressed are not in-line with the Church’s teachings. Please visit the Church’s website on the matter: It makes clear that you can be gay, or have same-sex attraction, and be a member in good standing (enter the temple, pass the sacrament, etc.) as long as they do not act on those attractions. In other words not break the law of chastity. Why then could a boy who is gay pass the sacrament but not participate in scouting? Seem contradictory to me. If the BSA changes their policy it would bring it more in-line with the LDS Church’s current policy. I hope and pray that the BSA changes its policy on gay membership

      • We’d probably gain a hell of a lot more money and members if we let girls join in at the Cub and Troop levels. But that’s probably an argument for a different day.

        (Yes I know there is some agreement with the Girl Scouts but their numbers are dropping and their program is lacking
        They deserve a great Christmas Scouting program as well.)

      • I am neither surprised nor sympathetic to the plight of Girl Scouts. There is something to be said for anyone (individual or group) that removes God and the morals of the bible from their lives & programs (and align themselves with Planned Parenthood) – His blessings are only for those that stay true to Him. They had a Christian program they chose to throw it away and cave to the pressures of those who felt they needed so called ‘equality’. So there’s a glimpse of what BSA will become.

        (Makes you wonder then – why did BSA go through the trouble of aligning ourselves with American Heritage Girls if we’re just going to turn around and be like Girl Scouts after all?!)

  85. My concern is the practical application. How will tenting arrangements be made? Will we need to ask an 11 year old boy if he’s gay? If we do, it opens us up to discrimination and harrassment charges. Do we allow a gay youth to tent with a hetero youth? We don’t allow hetero boys and girls to tent together in Venturing, for obvious reasons. Are we open to trouble if a hetero youth encourages a gay youth to change? What about the other way around? I’m not too worried about the adults. Adults, gay or hetero, are expected to be, well, adult. So long as they act like adults we won’t have a problem.

    • A problem I’m sure we can overcome. There are already likely boys questioning their sexuality in troops right now. What not to do? Shun them, make them feel like outcasts, treat them like dirt and immoral, for something their body chemistry is doing, and not a choice. There are one-man tents if it comes to it. We can be adults and think of ways to deal with our children, no matter their size, shape, gender, or orientation.

    • Tenting arrangements will be the same. And 11-year-old-boys will have the same conversations they’ve always had. Conversations about masturbation, conversations about making out, conversations about who looks hot. The same conversations that have gone on between 11-year-olds when no adults are around for about, I don’t know, several thousand years, probably.

      The fact that 11 (or 12 or 13 or whatever) year olds have these conversations, and always have, does not mean they will become gay. If it did, then all boys would be gay!

      At early adolescent years, these conversations don’t determine a boy’s sexual orientation, but they do help a boy, slowly, discover what sexuality is and become comfortable with his own sexuality.

      Tenting arrangements don’t need to change. Boys will have the same conversations as always. Teaching boys how to respect everyone, and how to understand themselves, in an atmosphere of mutual respect and responsibility, is the best lesson we can teach them.

      • yes, the conversations have always gone on, and will continue. The conversation is not the concern of this post. The concern is when it becomes more than a conversation.
        I’m not sure there is a good solution to address those concerns. Maybe BSA will require everyone at camp to wear a chastity belt, and leave the key at home with mom. (I know that is unlikely, and probably not the best solution, but I can’t come up with a better one right now.)

      • What if I told you that your son has already likely tented with homosexuals? I’m pretty sure just because you’re homosexual, and you’re tenting with someone who’s not, you’re not automatically inclined to force your gayness on your tent mate. That’s not how it works.

      • So then let’s lift the rule prohibiting straight male and female youth from tenting together. Why are we assuming that gay youth are more responsible or in control of their hormones than straight youth?

      • A change in policy won’t facilitate the transition of the conversation to action. If this is going to happen, then it will happen. New policy or old.

      • Tenting arrangements absolutely have to change to keep the intent of the youth protection rules in place. But this is NOT an anti gay thing. If you are going to allow same gender gay youth to tent together then we have to allow straight males and females together. Teens are teens. Hormones rage if you are gay or straight when you are a teen. It’s unfair to say that two gay youth are more responsible to keep themselves under control than the straight mixed gender pair. The rules need to be updated to make sure that all the combinations of genders and orientation are treated equally and offered the same protections. No gender or sexual orientation is any more or less capable than the others of breaking the rules or being inappropriate.

        There has got to be a solution that will make all sides feel comfortable at the least.

    • So…uh, I hate to break it to you, but hetero boys and gay boys have been tenting together in the BSA since the beginning of time.

    • It’s a valid concern. But it’s one that should be addressed regardless of any policy changes. There are now gay scouts, and there will be in the future regardless. Assuming that there aren’t is not wise.

    • Why, lots of us, actually. Many families I know have boycotted Boy Scouts because of this unfair discrimination. My son will meet gay people in the world anyway, what’s the harm in meeting them in his troop? And, maybe, there won’t be any in his troop. Stop being paranoid.

      • They have every right to boycott, and it is not hurting the BSA by them doing so. The BSA is a private organization and it has every right to restrict membership. The people who say that it is unfair can go camping on their own or even start their own private organization.
        Also, many families do not want their sons to grow up around and be influenced by homosexuals, regardless of the fact that they will meet them in the real world.

      • the BSA is a private organization. they have every right to decide to reverse a policy that they decide is discriminatory and allow LGBT individuals to join.

      • Not influenced by homosexuals? um, have you never met an interior designer? A men’s clothes designer (or women’s)? Or seen a broadway show? We’re influence by gay folks allllllllll the time, lol. Open your eyes, hears, and heart, and maybe you’ll find enough love for Jesus, cuz apparently you think your in his shoes to judge people without knowing a like about them.

      • I agree, Nathan, many of the people in those professions are homosexual. However, having openly gay leaders in your son’s troop is much more influential than seeing them on TV.
        And no, I don’t hate homosexuals. I simply do not agree with the way they chosen to live their lives. And, since you brought up Jesus, you should know that the Bible says that spiritual judgement is ok.

      • Angie, I’m concerned that my son may find himself camping with people who are sexually attracted to him. How can I know if that will happen? How can I prevent that from happening? If a unit decides to not allow gays in their ranks, will the BSA defend that unit in court if needed? It sounds like the answer will be no. So in the end, I think it won’t really be up to the individual units to decide on this issue, it’ll be up to those who choose which units to legally attack over the issue.

      • ummm, the BSA already defends 100% of its units to not allow gays, so only having to defend 75% would be relief for national!! Think about it.

        Ummm, your son may already have camped with a boy who might be gay. Just cuz a kid’s parent signed him up for Scouts doesn’t mean year’s later, when the boy hits puberty, doesn’t mean he won’t be or isn’t gay. I mean, when did you ‘choose’ to be straight? You didnt. You’re hormones chose for you. You think its different for gays? There’s hormones choose but they know society tells them otherwise. That’s why they struggle with it and don’t come out. They think if they wait, it might change. But you don’t change those things. Just like you won’t change from being attracted to women…you just are. The more open and honest, and accepting (see hermaphrodite, transgender, etc), the less scared you’ll be and maybe confronting these issues won’t be as hard.

      • There are other Scouting organizations out there that welcome gays. Why does the gay movement have to insist on forcing themselves into every aspect of our lives? My opinion is that they are the most closed minded intolerant minority group there is. If you don’t agree with them they can bully harrass threaten and label you. Then they will use their protected class status as a shield.

        If they succeed here they will walk through the carnage they created and move on to their next target.

      • You have accidentally hit on a part of the problem. The gay world has invented themselves minority status, and many have bought it. Who or what I like doesn’t make me a minority. Will you treat me special if I claim to like whips and chains? How about if I like women with big noses? How about if we leave sexual preference out of the question and I like to eat sauerkraut?
        I happen to like sauerkraut. I’m going to declare myself a minority. I’m going to get my friends to join me in an annual sauerkraut parade. Then I’m going to insist that all public gatherings where food is served MUST offer sauerkraut, because if they don’t offer sauerkraut they are discriminating against me.

      • You’re perfectly welcome to have a sauerkraut parade, and to eat sauerkraut when and where you want, as far as I’m concerned. Not offering sauerkraut is not in line with disallowing homosexuals from existing. LGBT individuals asking for equality are not asking to make YOU gay. They are just asking for the same rights as everyone else.

      • Your use of the term carnage is truly hyperbolic. You stated elsewhere that you don’t want to exclude gays from scouts. I guess if that’s true, that’s true, but you can perhaps see why people would infer that perhaps you do want to keep gays out of scouts because of your statements such as this?

      • The carnage is going to be all the lawsuits, hatred etc. Traditional units being targeted as discriminating bigots, “inclusive” units getting similar insults. With no unifying voice from National the general non Scouting public will not understand what is going on. There will be divides between units, other units refusing to go to an event because it is including “those” units. Chartered organizations dropping units just to prevent exposure to lawsuits. It will take many many years for the BSA to recover. It will but it will never have the stature it once had.

        I have not been shy to say that I personally disagree with the gay lifestyle and I don’t see good things happening with this being shoved at us.

        My primary concern when this happens, and it will because National will bend, is to make sure that all the policies and rules are rewritten to make sure that the strictness and intent of the youth protection rules are applied equally and fairly across the new gender and orientation combinations of youth and adults. That there is proper training not the typical cheesy BSA flick to help leaders understand the changes as well as help those of us with no experience with openly gay youth understand them because each are their own group with unique issues and worries. I can relate to the straight youth but not necessarily to a gay youth.

        This all has to be done with some sensitivity to those who though don’t necessarily agree with it are willing to do their best to try to make it work. All the mocking of their religions, parenting, etc isn’t helping the cause.

        People will naturally rebel toa major fundamental change. Those forcing it should try to help people who are not necessarily for it understand why they think that it is a good thing and perhaps help come up with transition plans and ideas for training and coming up with support resources for people willing to try.

        Instead I see vicious attacks on people who have expressed disagreement with the lifestyle and proposed changes.

        By the way, the gay agenda would find much less resistance if it defended and supported the rights of units to stay traditional without all of the negative labels. Then they could be in the BSA and the traditional units could be there. If we eliminated the innuendo and labeling of traditional units you might find more support for inclusive units. It does not necessarily have to be an all or nothing policy for either side.

        Sadly I think it will continue to get ugly.

      • It’s close-minded to want the same rights as other people? Not to be discriminated against? That’s a pretty weird definition of close-minded, lady.

    • They are already exposed to this. They go to school don’t they.
      They are active in their community aren’t they.

      The gay population has been and will continue to be part of our society.

      • Neither of my kids has any openly gay youth in their social circles and they are quite active with a large group of friends.

        I’ve heard them talk about a couple of the in-your-face flamboyant gay youth in school but that’s it.

    • what are you worried about? you’re not going to get gay cooties by sitting next to a gay person at a campfire. it doesn’t expose our children to anything.

      • That’s a stupid statement. No one is talking about “cooties”. People want to be part of an organization that is in line with their values. Despite what you liberal gay supporters believe, we all don’t have to agree with the gay lifestyle. That doesn’t make us hate filled or anything, it means that we don’t find ourselves in alignment with them. I’m not the least bit Italian, should I bully and sue my way into the local Italian American club or find a club I am more in align with?

        But not with the gay agenda. They insist on invading every aspect of our lives forcing themselves into places they don’t need to be because there are other organizations more in alignment with them.

        Interesting that people have spent time and money to create inclusive Scouting organizations but rather than you being a part of that and supporting their efforts you just want to force change here and let those groups fail.

      • Jo that is Exactly what we are arguing for.. I like and scout in the NE. An area that is more progressive they where ever it is you are from. In the NE Parents want their kids to be exposed to the same scouting values they where when they where kids.. before people like you marched in and declared BSA a Christian only organization, and not just christian, but a specific sect that views it is their job to impose their beliefs on others.

        People are tired of rolling over to your dogma, and they want change, so they are following the scout law to change it from the inside. They want the Scout Law and Oath to stand up for what BP intended, not as a sheltered youth program of the dogmatic few. There is nothing wrong with BSA, it has just been lead astray from the founders and people are working to bring it back. you may not like it because you want to see it remain exclusive and eventually die. But others who have GENERATIONS in Scouting, want to see their family traditions continue, so they are on a mission to remove the imposed dogma and bring scouting back to the wholesome program it once was.. on that was about raising good citizens, not about creating people who are bound by fear and exclusion..

        This change is going to bring back scouting stronger in the NE, where it has been struggling against an issue that should not have been here in the first place. But it is an issue brought on by fear of change, a fear that is owned by people like you, Jo.

        People who want to invoke hate and fear, instead of Loyalty, kindness, reverence..

        Please Jo, reflect on the scout law and oath, and understand it as the rest of the world does. BSA will return to it’s core values. I have faith in that. There are more Good people out there who want to see their children raised according to their values, and not your values.

      • Why are you attributing religious dogma to me? I’ve not made one religious statement to support anything that I have said.

        I am in the Northeast as well in a rural community. Scouting is quite active. 7 active Troops within 7 miles of me. Two of the Packs with 7 miles of me are at about 100 members each. Our Venturing Crew has 24 youth between the ages of 13 and 19.

        So raising kids by your values is better than raising them by my values? If you say so. You don’t know my values. You know my opinions based on short bursts of posts in a heated forum. But that gives you enough to judge my parenting? Interesting.

      • I believe the whole “separate but equal” argument went out of style fifty years ago. But don’t let facts or science impact your opinion. It’s definitely much better to close your mind and judge –

      • Nobody is telling you you have to “agree with the gay lifestyle” (whatever that is. It’s not like it’s something you choose, like the color of your curtains). They’re telling you that your personal preference for what sexuality someone else is shouldn’t matter when it comes to scouts. Scouts isn’t about sexual orientation. Now, if you wanted to exclude homosexuals from your swingin’ hetero sex club, well, then I think you’d be on more solid ground.

  86. Seems like passing the buck and it doesn’t even seem practical. Now instead of the Scouts as a whole being called bigots they’ll be calling specific troops/packs bigots and targeting them directly? Way to stick up for the little guy National. Glad to be paying those dues and selling that popcorn.

    Consider the logistics of events/camping trips alone. Before tent assignments, restrooms, showers, etc etc where divided by simple categories of Youth/Adult and Male/Female. How many new categories does this create? Youth,Straight / Youth,Gay / Adult, Straight / Adult,Gay / Female,Straight / Female,Gay etc etc.. You thought “Youth Protection” was complicated before. Think of the fun new lawsuits on the way.

    Now I’m not saying not to consider something because of only logistics. I’m just saying that National/Local Councils are fooling themselves if they can simply pass the buck on this and it not affect them.

    I get that other groups including the US Military have integrated. However, its apples to oranges right? Last time I checked the US Military didn’t enlist minors which is what scouting is all about.

    Why not a moderated approach? Perhaps a “venture” like program that allows gays. Give it a test run, see how it fairs in safety and practicality before those policies are every pushed on the core of scouting.

    Just my 2 coppers.

    • I see your concerns and unlike many of them on here that I have read, they are well thought and practical. Shall I attempt to tackle each of your points?
      Tenting I will admit may be a bit challenging for the troops however it is an issue that can be dealt with by the troops and their leaders. All I feel is needed on their part is to stress no sex of any kind. Any caught are left up to the judgement of the troop (possible kicking out, but that is left up to the troops and their committees). Restrooms and showers is an easy thing to fix and relatively simple. Private showers and restrooms. Im sure most restrooms are already private so what does it matter if a gay scout uses the same toilet as a straight scout? Private stalls for showering would be an almost must at this point. I have camped with scouts for nearly my entire life, thanks to my older brother, and I have noticed that even in group showers, scouts do not get naked. They shower in their swimming trunks. What difference does it make if tommy tenderfoot is gay in the shower if he will be exposed to the exact same thing in a public swimming pool?
      Why should adult leaders be categorized? Yes we need female leaders and male leaders if there are both sexes but what difference does it make if a leader is gay? With the youth categorization, do we categorize them now? Do we say, “oh youre the little straight blue eyed blonde german boy and you are the little jewish kid” and base them on that? If so, then your scouting unit is not one that I would ever want to be associated with.
      I am actually very supportive of this movement but I must admit that your idea of a trial venture crew is actually a good one. One that I would like to see. But perhaps National will do something like that. We do not actually know what the will do and nor will we until next week.

      • So are you then supporting that straight Venturing males and females can also tent together or is that only open to pairs of same gendered gay youth because somehow magically they have more control over their teenage hormones than the straight pair.

        If you say you don’t I’d really like to hear how and why that would be considered fair or equal.

    • Sadly it’s because the gay agenda insists on having it their way without compromise.

      • Jo, where do you get your crazy Ideas from? in all seriousness, it seems to me that you have an issue with anyone who does not practice your religion. That is not very reverent, kind, or friendly..

        The only one here who does not want compromise is you, and those you represent, which for too long (30 years) has distracted BSA from following the scout law, because to do so would mean that you can’t claim your self appointed position as the voice of morality..

      • If you read my posts I have never quoted anything from religion.

        I’ve offered ideas on how this could be made to work and I addressed valid youth protection concerns that would need to be worked out. I’ve also suggested that serious training be developed to help people like myself understand the gay youth issues so that I can better help them because ever different group of youth have their own issues and such. Having no experience with gay youth I would need resources to help me help the youth in my units.

        Apparently your complete all or nothing right now attitude with no tolerance of anyone who doesn’t immediately jump up and down and embrace the gay agenda has blinded you from seeing things. You don’t want to compromise or work together for a solution you want it to be your dogma or none.

      • Hi Jo, You probably have gay youth in your troop already or in the past. Your troop leaders have been dealing with their gay youth issues just fine.

      • Yeah, the NERVE of them, not wanting to be discriminated against! Why, the next thing you know, they’re going to claim they have a right not to get beaten up all the time.

  87. It’s probably been said, but I really get a kick out of all those who are saying they’ll leave or start getting upset about integration issues. Yup, I remember back when the US Military made this same change and the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard all spontaneously combusted….

    • It didn’t implode obviously but it is not all happy yellow brick road with the integration in the military.

      • With change comes turmoil. It’s only been a couple of years and let’s face it – the military doesn’t exactly react or move with the speed of a cheetah to change. The real evaluation the adoption of this policy can’t happen for a few more years at least. But, my point as sarcastic as it was (apologies, I get tired and I get snarky) still stands. They didn’t implode and they’re working through difficulties created by the new rules. They’re adapting to it and finding a way to still complete their mission and serve our national interests.

      • I don’t doubt that at all. We have the best military men and women in the world.

        No need to apologize about snarkiness, I’m sure that I have made a few enemies overnight with how I have phrased things. I’ve been told often that I should relax more before getting into debates or arguments about Scouting.

        When this is all said and done I hope it doesn’t leave us completely divided.

      • “When this is all said and done I hope it doesn’t leave us completely divided.”

        Jo this is unavoidable. You can not have it both ways this will surely change BSA forever if it goes through. I know we will no longer be members.

      • I think there will be complete harmony in the Scouting for Boys movement if this passes because I believe the disenfranchised half of the participants will vote with their feet. I agree with you ScoutMommaX3.

      • Jo, I have no reason to believe we’ll be divided in the end. I think the organization we both care about though is going to have some growing pains.

    • Charles, you obviously never served in a combat unit. The fact that most of you “patriots” keep holding up the military as the example shows your complete ignorance on the subject. A) The US Military is a government organization. B) The BSA is a private organization that is free to set it’s own membership standards.

      That being said, being a former infantry sergeant I would not want to have homosexuals for subordinates. I wouldn’t want to have women as subordinates either. You see, when you have women/homosexuals integrated into combat arms units that often have direct enemy contact and come under fire it can complicate things.

      If I have a platoon that has two heterosexual couples and a homosexual couple then it is a worse case scenario. The Israelis tried it and it went horribly wrong. I have seen men shut down after seeing their teammates killed and I have seen them rise above it. It’s an emotional thing to see your best friend killed. Imagine that is your significant other. Some people will not be able to handle it. Some will ignore the mission and focus on their spouse. The support units try to manage it, but it still results in adultry, unplanned pregnancies and in some unfortunate instances rape.

      Soldiers on the front lines do not care about race, religion and gender, but at the end of the day no infantryman wants to be caught in the crossfire of some girlfriend/boyfriend or homosexual drama between two squadmates. It’s my experience that people should stick to what they know and it’s obvious you don’t know a thing about our military.

      • and some of us believe that they are actually going to follow the scout law, and not just pay it lip service. This is not about political correctness, it’s about allowing people to be honest, and uphold their morals. If you want to run a unit that is exclusive to only people from your church, that is something you can do. If my PTA wants to run a unit that includes all students in the school regardless of theirs or their parents orientation, and does not want to demonize the parents in the eyes of their children. Then they can do that.. Heck they can have a unit that includes ALL religious beliefs.

      • There are still many religions and religious denomiations that consider homosexuality a sin, leaving it highly unlikely that a unit will be able to include gays and still welcome all religious beliefs. When the unit picks one, it will tend to exclude the other.

      • My pack already does.. You see a scout is reverent, this means that he allows for all religions, this also means that the scout does not preach or dictate the dogma of any one, but encourages a scout to talk with their parent or religious leader about reconciling the world with their beliefs.

        My pack and troop handle it simply.. we leave religion, along with sex as a family matter.

      • and those religions and religious denominations will still be free to exclude gay members if they wish, according to what national has said on the issue today. if a unit isn’t dedicated to a certain religion and wishes to be inclusive, good for them. win-win.

      • In a private organization that you join by choice it is the members responsibility to follow the tenants of the organization not the other way. Do not like the requirement? Do not join. There is no right to join a private organization.

      • yes.. and the private organization is being redefined as the Unit, which is where it should be, after all does the BSA OWN the unit? no.. the chartered Org does. The BSA don’t own the unit’s Gear.. the Chartered org does. The Unit is not under the BSA 5013c, it is under the the Chartered Org’s 5013c.

        So why shouldn’t the Chartered Org decide who to let me leaders and who not to? After all IT owns the unit. Not the BSA.

      • There is still the unanswered question of legal liability. You are kidding yourself if you think the LGBT Community will sit quietly while one Unit “discriminates” against another when they will not interact willingly or in good faith. Funding is competitive and many CO’s do not have the funds to fight the endless streams of litigation.

      • Well honestly the Legal Liability was always on the Chartered Org. which is why so many backed out when the discrimination policy came to the for front..

      • I totally agree with you, Andrew. It seems that people would rather attack private organizations instead of leaving them be.


      • This may seem obvious but let us all be really clear on this one point, there is no right being violated here i.e. the BSA is a private organization and no one has an inherent civil right to belong. I see many comments that use segregation, and exclusion. Again there is no inherent civil right that says you have a right to join the BSA. The “civil rights” argument does not apply as per the SCOTUS ruling.

      • No they are hoping for a gain of money, pure and simple. They are probably trying to see if the cost of the backlash will be outweighed by all the money at end of the rainbow. But once they force the carnage upon the BSA that pot of gold is going to move on with the movement to their next target while we figure out how to repair all of the damage and bad feelings.

        Chartered organizations that thought that National and Council was their “partner” are going to wonder exactly what the unit charter fee pays for and when they will actually receive council support that is mentioned in the annual charter agreement.

        Already cash strapped councils are going to get deluged in legal battles if National ducks and hides leaving local councils, chartered organizations and units to fend for themselves.

  88. I have been involved with the Boy Scouts since 1966. This potential change in policy has no place in the Boy Scout program. Our organization is fundemental to the well-being of young men and is instrumental in the common belief that as adult leaders our responsibility is to teach and demonstrate moral behavior in our actions and our policies. I am shocked and beyond ashamed of the “new” leadership (Wayne Brock)in our program to even consider this change. Lord Baden Powell must be rolling over in his grave right now! I’m certain if it had been known that his agenda was to change the character and history of the Boy Scouts, he would have never been selected to this position. Perhaps the decision to put him in this job needs to be reconsidered!

      • There are no official substantive references or sources you could point to that would give your statement any weight. Even the latest biography by Tim Jeal is unclear as to the historical certainty of his orientation. Jeal himself concedes this.

      • Yeah he married Olave Soames when he was 50 and they had a nice family. He met her on a cruise.

    • The Brits allow lgbt and girls in.. and that was many years ago.. and they seem to be doing just fine.. maybe we could learn something else from the people on the other side of the pond.

    • Unless someone can prove to the contrary, I don’t believe Lord Baden-Powell ever suggested the exclusion of gay members.

      • Being “gay” wasn’t quite the “in” thing back then like it is now. So it was not an issue that he had to tackle.

    • Perhaps, Mr. Turner, you might want to direct your attention to the head of our national board, who has said he wants to see this policy overturned. I confess, though, that I don’t understand why, in these days of declining membership and opportunities, we would seek to further isolate ourselves. If your chartering organization doesn’t want to allow gay members, then don’t. It’s as simple as that.

      • It’s not “as simple as that”. Without the unified voice of the organization as a whole and the support of National, most units and chartered organizations are going to eventually be forced to capitulate. Because the gay agenda is not going to be satisfied with some units being traditional.

        Hell look how this is breaking down on all the message boards. There’s likely to be a divide of traditional units and “inclusive” units (because its not actually inclusive if we still discriminate against girls being in all levels of the program). Look at how the pro gay people are labeling the traditionalists as intolerable hate mongers who should join the KKK. How are these very two opposing sides going to plan district events together or have roundtables together and so on.

      • We don’t think you should join the KKK, we think you should take a lesson from some of the people you are trying to exclude. Have you ever met a “gay” person? I personally have many homosexual friends and most of them are nicer than my heterosexual friends.

    • what about the well being of young gay men? Who’s to teach them about character, leadership, and morals? The non-scouts? Dont we wish all young mean would follow the Scout Law…even gay ones?

      Have you looked at your own actions? The one who doesn’t know or understand biology isn’t black/white? Have you never read about hermaphrodites? You know (or don’t), those people, those humans, born with both sets of genitalia? Are they male or female? straight or gay? Your God made them in his image, right? A straight couple procreated them?

      • There are Scouting organizations that have been founded with hard work and money and caring that are inclusive and supporting of gay youth. But none of the gay supporters are helping, joining or supporting them. No they insist on creating carnage in the BSA. They could care less about those other organizations because they already accept the gay agenda so there is no reason to get involved with them. So the people who actively tried to create a program that welcomed gay youth get ignored and will eventually go away having wasted a lot of time and money.

        Could you imagine the level of program those other organizations would have now if all of the resources wasted attacking the BSA were used to build up and support the organizations that were trying to support the gay youth?

      • Hey Nathan. Again you attribute religion to what I’ve been saying. Is English your second language? I have not made a single religious or god reference supporting anything I have said.

  89. I appreciate people being concerned about the logistics of homo boys in tents with hetro.. however, this is not a new issue, it’s just going to now be ok to talk about it. Maybe we can turn to the Brits to see how they resolved this many years go..

    It will also allow may PTA, and non-Church organizations feel good about stepping up and chartering unit’s again. If the christian based pack/troop does not want to allow LGBT in.. well they CAN start their own pack/troop/crew.. it’s a win win.. no more money wasted on law suits and no more units needing to deal with angry parents because some people in a different part of the country don’t feel comfortable.

    • The only way it would be fair is that if gay youth are allowed to tent with other youth of their gender that youth males and females have the same option. Two gay youth of the same gender who are just friends have the same raging hormones as the straight male and female who are just friends. So both situations have a chance of hanky panky. But with the proposed plan, one pairing will be ok but not the other?

      • Is that what your afraid of? Have you ever been camping with scouts? are you even really involved in the system? all 14 year old boys and girls I know are not really interested in hanky panky.. Secondly You seem to be the one with a problem here.. No one said sex was ok.. sex has no place in scouting.. and any one caught doing hanky panky.. regardless of gender/orientation would be dealt with accordingly..

        Are you just afraid that people will say it’s OK for gay boys to have sex when camping? If so, then you are sadly mistaken.. Also, a Tent, in the winter, with other people right around you? yeah that is about the dumbest Idea of when to have hanky panky..

        Seriously Jo, do you have any scouting experience?

      • Hey John.

        Thanks for letting me know about this reply.

        First I guess you should understand that I am mostly now on the Venturing side of things so I have mixed genders between 13 and 19 years old.

        I agree that sex has no place in Scouting. Our Crew has very strict rules (that the youth came up with) regarding relationships between Crew members in regards to Crew meetings and activities.

        However we have very strict rules in place to protect the youth. If we introduce gay youth into the equation, then the rules need to be modified to reflect this apply the same standards and protections across all combinations of genders and orientations.

        So if we do not allow straight youth males and females to tent together to avoid any even appearance of impropriety, then we have to apply that standard equally to same gender gay youth pairings or remove it.

        This is not an anti gay issue. This is wanting to make sure that all the youth are treated equally and fairly, and more importantly, that they are protected equally.

      • Forgive me, Jo, I honestly do not understand what you are arguing for, if you say you want all to be treated equally and fairly. Yes! Protect them all! If things need to be modified to accommodate openly gay individuals, so be it. I know that venturing youth protection is different, and may be difficult to integrate this but are you saying that if something will be hard, then we should just throw up our hands and say to forget it? If we believe it to be right, then we must work to find the solution. There are so many intricacies involved in this, but a reasonable solution is attainable if we work together to find it. If you don’t want to deal with it, there is still the option of keeping your unit closed. But why deny the opportunity for individuals to join another unit that will deal with it?

        The simple fact is, that many people who are gay, and even those that are straight, have struggles with finding their identities. They may not know who they are at the age we are dealing with them in scouts. That doesn’t make them dishonest. “Coming out” as gay is a complex process full of emotions and impulses that often leaves kids feeling isolated, abandoned, sometimes from their own families that shun them. They NEED a place to belong. I would LOVE to have scouting be the place that we can give them the acceptance they so fundamentally need. I’m sure we can work this out! I feel that it’s so very important to do so!

      • Not at all I have said repeatedly that we need to work out those issues, preferably in a way that meets the worries on all sides of the issues.

  90. If homosexuality is a sin, like, dosent god forgive you for those? and diddent jesus DIE for our sins? i mean, he diddent just die for the heterosexual sinners. everyone sins. some sins are not more sinful than others…useing the lords name in vein, and killing someone is basically the same in gods eyes, and if you ask, he will forgive you!
    so everyone, just think of the scout law. Also, bible teachings shouldent matter, because scouting caters too all religions! And really, if a scout was gay in my troop, it would have VERY little impact what so ever. Start loveing, stop hateing, and stop fearing the things you dont understand.

    • Yes, Jesus did die for our sins, but that is no reason to sin freely! God does not want us to sin. Romans 6:12 tells us: “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions” (ESV).

      Asking for forgiveness and then continuing to sin is to be hypocrite.

      • Andrew, when did you choose to be straight? And i don’t mean when was your first kiss. When did you make a conscious choose to be straight over gay? When did you sit down and make a list of pros and cons? Or, did it just happen? In puberty. And your hormones kicked in, and you just sorta started to take notice of girls. You never chose. So, why do you think gay people choose if you didn’t? Or do you just not understand biology? You can take classes on biology and biochemistry. Heck, you can look in the dictionary for free on issues like hermaphrodites, transgender, transexual, and open up your eyes that the world of biology is not black and white. You might find in your heart that it is you that are sinning. You cast stones. You read the Old Testament and do not read the Gospel. You haven’t learned a thing about Jesus. You’re fire and brimstone and no compassion. You’re not the follower of Jesus, the Jesus who helped those shunned by society. You fear what you do not understand, and that will hold you back in your faith.

    • You noted “if you ask, he will forgive you!”
      With that statement, I have to presume you are expecting the homosexuals to ask for forgiveness, would that be correct?
      I doubt that was your intended thought, but it does seem odd to say if you do not believe homosexuality is wrong.
      Also, why are so many referring to the Scout Law???
      Yes, as a Scouter, we respect all religions…however, I don’t know of any religion which encourages being a homosexual. And the religions which take no position on the subject are saying neither is it OK or not.
      MY religion clearly states in Leviticus 18.22, “No man is to have sexual relations with another man; God hates that.”
      [The Good News Bible, Today’s English Version, Broadman Press, 1976.]
      So then, would you think it Ok to not respect my regilious beliefs and tell me that I should accept what the bible clearly states is “hated” by God?
      This is a none issue for me as the 2 Troops I am a party too are Chartered by Veterans groups, and their position is clear on the subject of homosexuals.
      My concern is with Nation tossing this on the COs to handle… this is the cowards way out.
      They should either stick to their long-held traditions, or tell everyone they must tow the National line; which they will not do becuase they KNOW they will lose COs [e.g., Many churches, Veteran’s Groups, etc.]
      Lawsuits will be brought by this, of that you can be certain and of that I have no doubts.
      My doubts is where National will stand on defending the rights of the COs to support their own choices; which I believe they will “throw under the bus” at the first sign of cost to them.
      And…as for homosexuals just “starting another unit”, I am a Founder of a Unit and it is NOT all that easy when you are in a small community so PLEASE do not make it sound like it is simply the matter of dropping a piece of paper in the mail.
      In a small town, you will be hard-pressed to find enough to start a second Unit; and it will most likely be discouraged by Council as they will have 2 Units trying to sustain membership with a limited available amount of boys.
      My oponion is quite simply that the Traditions have held for over 100 years, the methods of Scouting has changed, but the Traditions have not………………….. KEEP the Traditional stance.
      I do not kid myself into believeing there are no homosexuals in Scouting, but IF there are, they are keeping their lifestyle to themselves and are causing no issues.
      As an Eagle, I would never cause any harm to befall anyone just because they are homosexual…BUT, I do NOT have to accept their lifestyle.
      And, for the record… It has been well-documented that the vast majority of pedophiles are straight men…NOT homosexuals.

  91. I must say that I welcome this with great relief. It means that many Christian denominations who do not believe in bigotry in any form will be able to form Packs, Troops and/or Crews without worrying about who is LGBT, or anything else. It becomes a who cares position. I only demand 2 things from any would be leaders that is they take and follow the Youth Protection Training required by BSA and that they are willing to submit themselves to a Criminal Background check also required by BSA. I will encourage them to take the training specific to their position. For the youth I will not discuss issues of sexual orientation or anything else regarding that topic. Again the BSA has rules against that for our own and the youth’s protection. I will help him/her with anything that I can otherwise, including protecting them from bullying.

      • You can’t mock God and win. It really makes no difference how we “feel”. There is fundamental wisdom in protecting our children to the extent possible until they become adults.

      • morals are a very personal thing. as far as i’m concerned, good moral behavior means not lying, cheating and stealing. what i or anyone else does in the privacy of my own home doesn’t make me or anyone else a bad person. if an individual is gay, how does that effect some other person completely uninvolved in that person’s life? it simply does not. morality is basically being a good person and treating others well. gay people are still good people. they just love people of the same gender. period.

      • The problem is that gay people want to require all people to except and honor their choice of lifestyle without regard for anyone else’s freedom to choose their beliefs or lifestyle.

      • NO! that is not true! LGBT individuals aren’t asking for more than anyone else has. they don’t want to change anyone else’s beliefs. if you think that it’s wrong to be homosexual because of your religious beliefs, then fine, have those religious beliefs. what you CANT do is to tell someone who is gay that they don’t have the right to be gay because of YOUR religious beliefs. do you see the difference? they aren’t trying to tell you that you have to be gay. they just want you to let them be gay. live and let live.

      • I’ve never had a gay person try to force me to be gay. But plenty of straight people try to force gay people to be straight.

      • And they have their options and Scouting organizations that were formed to welcome and support them. But rather than support them back you and the rest of the gay movement want to force carnage on the BSA.

  92. I have to agree that the organization, BSA, is an umbrella organization, but its structure is rock solid if it is to remain true to the principles that B-P founded the organization upon. Homosexuality is NOT a part of the BSA principles: never has been but that is changing so it appears. Let the lawyers argue (and get paid by whom?) but the national leaders decide this based on the oath. The Scout oath does ask us to be “help other people at all times.” But helping how? That dove tails into the Scout Law. Within the twleve laws of Scouting as in the Old Testament,
    the Hummardi Code and the other philosophical and reglious laws, law speaks of relationships: man to God and God to man. We are to honor life but we are to protect it’s principle. God is creator. Homosexuality was NOT created by God for man’s pleasure because it defiles the individual. God created both male and female
    and made that relationship what is it. Homosexuality is not a derivate creation of God but of man. Scouting principles doe not reflect homosexuality. If another organization wan’t to aspire to the same level with Scouting but “gender and sexual preference free” then let it do that. Leave Scouting a homosexual-free organization. Life is confusing enough for a young boy but to expose that age to the a decision that he cannot truely make at that age thru some “instructions written in a charter” is ridiculous. Boys are to be lead, leaders are to lead, parented in a path straight for good, not evil. Therefore, we must remain structurally and organizationally, top to bottom, bound by same principles. The national organization cannot negate its leadership role by the choise which seems to have been made or directed by lawyers. The Supreme Court has already stated its position on the matter. The Scouting principles are there for a purpose. They must be practiced and carried out by the same leaders who are chosen for their moral integreity, not by their sexuality orientation. Boys, as pointed out by others, are not military aged individuals. They must be lead by men/women of moral integreity, religious forthrightness and principled character. Homosexual behavior and orientation must remain outside the membership privileges of the BSA organization. Confusing situations on the local level will only develop if National leadership does not take up its own mantel and lead according to what Scouting is all about: developing boys into men, doing the right thing, living honestly and forthrightly, and developing life skills which will help produce a good citizen, a rounded and trustworthy invididual who honors God, family and country.
    John W. Owen, Sr
    Eagle ’62
    BS for Life

    • Um, John, sorry to break it to you, but God created gay people. He creates people who are born with two sets of genitalia (hermaphrodites). God creates people who’s gender does not match their sex, and their sexual orientation that doesn’t match either. God creates people born without limbs. God creates people born with unspeakable abnormalities. God creates babies that die before being born. God creates mentally unstable people who kill others. God creates diseases. God creates horrible death and destruction.

      How? Because it happens every day. How we cope with it is how God judges us. Yet, you cast stones. Straight people create gay people every day through reproduction. You fear what you do not understand. You must fear God, because you do not understand Him.

      I know gay people who have far greater love and respect for God than you ever will. They, too, are God’s children, and they know full well the depths of hatred and ill well that consumes men like you.

      • Gender is determined by chromosomes not someone’s feelings of what they wish to be or what surgical modifications or mutilations are done.

      • Nathan judge not less you be judged. My God created the Bible that teaches that homosexuality is a sin and there is no living proof that people are born that way. Homosexuality is a creation of man not God while we are all children of God we are also children of our own choices. Trenton

      • Actually, if you believe in the Christian dogma God sent the message. Man wrote it down. Man is fallible…

  93. It is unfortunate that a minority can rule the majority. What happens now with Youth Protection and a Scout is Morely Straight???

    • nothing happens with them.. this has been just fine in the UK for many years.. Also, this isn’t a minority that is ruling a majority… it is a majority that is taking it’s voice back from a minority..

      A Scout is Obedient.
      A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them.

      A Scout is Reverent.
      A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

      • The UK scout oath and law does not and has never mentioned anything about being morally straight or morally anything at all. If we go the UK route, I think we’ll need to remove the morally straight portion of the scout oath. The UK scouts have also been considering an alternate oath for atheists, so I’m sure that’s on the horizon for the Boy Scouts as well.

    • Morally straight. Learn how to spell before you cast stones. How about people who don’t lie, don’t cheat, don’t abuse others, don’t treat others with disrespect, don’t steal, etc. That’s pretty moral. Loving in a mutual relationship isn’t something I’d immediately call immoral, just because i don’t understand it and have a hard time putting myself in their shoes. Isn’t it immoral for a 95 year old man to marry a 25 year old, but our society celebrates Hugh Hefner, a pornographer. Oh, that’s ok because he’s straight. So, a gay person, who’s in a committed relationship, wants to wait to get married before having sex (oh yeah, cuz straight people do that alllllll the time, hahaha), doesn’t lie, doesn’t cheat, is a leader, gives back to the community, and its just awesome, is immoral because God gave them a set of hormones that made them attracted to the same sex?

      By the way, if everyone follows Youth Protection, there will never be an issue. Keep pedophiles away from kids!

      I mean, am I to assume that because you’re a straight male than you might molest and abuse little girls? I’ll be sure to never let my daughters around straight men.

    • When the Scout Oath and Law were written, “straight” did not have the same connotation it does today. According to

      . . . and morally straight.

      To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.


      Respect and defend the rights of all people? Sounds like an admirable thing to do.

    • If you don’t have an umbrella policy covering you for lawsuits, get one now. If you already have one up the coverage, this is going to be a legal nightmare.

      • I am referring to National passing the buck. I believe lawsuits will happen if this policy is pushed through to appease the activists without implementing a transition time, proper changes and updates to youth protection to equally and fairly protect all of the youth and training for leaders without much experience with gay youth to understand their unique issues and so on.

        Plus there will be lots of residual lawsuits against units and chartered organizations that choose to stay traditional and so forth.

      • Hi Jo- I was wondering how you felt about the quality of BSA training on how to deal with heterosexual youth and their issues? What? There isn’t any? That’s right. Your whole argument about needing training on how to deal with gay youth is very disingenuous. Youth are youth. Gay or straight. Cool or nerdy. You have encountered youth who are gay. You just don’t know it because they’re not proclaiming to the world that they are gay. Sexuality is just one aspect of what makes up their personality. Very little would change in scouting if this policy were adopted, except that I’m hoping we might get more access to facilities and resources that have been closed to us because we discriminate. And I won’t be ashamed of the BSA’s membership stance the way that I am today.

    • *Morally Straight.
      That is referring to a scout having good morals and has nothing to do with sexually orientation.

  94. Major cave-in by national, passing the buck to the local units. Good luck with the facilities and accomodations at Jamborees and the like. I look forward to the guidelines on how a unit is supposed to advertise its membership stance and screen on the issue. The lawsuits we were seeing at the national level will now be targeted to the local units and chartering organizations.

    • Brad, do you currently let your straight boys shower with other boys? Most kids I know are pretty private. I know I was when I was in scouting or in sports. Heck, most men in a 24hr fitness try to cover up modestly. If everyone follows YPT, there shouldn’t be problems. As if boys who don’t join a troop pre-puberty don’t find out they’re gay while in a troop at 13 or 14, lol.
      It’s already happening every day across this country.

      • There is a whole host of youth protection issues that open up. We don’t allow straight youth males and females to tent together or be “buddies”. Are we going to impose this same standard on gay youth? Do I now need to ask each their sexual orientation so that I know who can tent with who or who can be a buddy with who? We have the strict standards between youth males and females to try to avoid putting them in a situation where something could happen. We were all “horny” teenagers at one point in our lives. Two gay youth are just as likely to engage in hanky panky as the straight male and female youth are.

        That’s really my core issue here. This is going to be a nightmare. If I there is a pairing between youth and because they were not honest about their sexual orientation (gay or straight) and something happens, what is the legal exposure? It looks like National may just make this happen then see how lawsuits and such sort out before changing the rules. I think if the rules are going to be changed due to money that they really need to think out all of these issues and scenarios and come up with clear and concise guidelines.

      • One really needs to be aware of youth-on-youth issues regardless of the BSA membership policies. Bullying and other inappropriate adolescent behavior occur in today’s troops. We deal with it now. It won’t be any different if the membership policy changes.

      • Nathan I was a Scoutmaster at the National Jamboree in 2010 and the boys showered in a certain location in the Western District and they certainly showered together like they do in their home school gyms. The men showered together at different time schedule’s than the boys YPT was certainly in force at all times. Trenton

  95. As for the question of WWJD, the Bible tells us in John 8:11 when addressing the prostitute He said “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.” Now prostitution is spoken of in the same context as homosexuality in almost all verses of the Bible, hence making it a sin too. So WWJD to the gay Scout or Scouter? He would tell him to sin no more.

    • So…you’re assuming that a gay person is a prostitute? That’s a pretty far reach there, buddy.

      When you can tell me when and how you chose to be straight, i might listen to you.

      • Is that your only argument? In the wild, animals that deviate from the norm are killed and eaten. That’s biology. Yeah I’m sure the gay supporters will pull out a few very rare examples that are exceptions to the rule.

        We’re humans so we don’t kill and eat those that deviate but it’s not a normal thing for humans to be gay. Organisms exist to reproduce. Those that can’t reproduce go extinct. That’s how you can tell that it is not a normal trait.

      • Actually science is demonstrating that homosexuality is more common than previously thought.

        Homosexuality has been Observed in most vertebrate groups, and also among insects, spiders, crustaceans, octopi and parasitic worms. The phenomenon has been reported in more than 1500 animal species, and is well documented for 500 of them, but the real extent is probably much higher.

  96. This is a HORRIBLE idea. Homosexuality is damaging to families and morality. My basis for that claim is here:

    The BSA is a private organization and should uphold the values that it was founded upon. I DO think gays and lesbians should be able to live the way they choose, but corrupting the morals of a private organization is preventing others from living the way that they choose. If homosexuals want to go camping, there is nothing preventing them from doing so. In fact, they can create their own camping organization if they want to.

    God Bless

    • let me remind you of the values the BSA was founded upon..

      A Scout is Trustworthy.
      A Scout tells the truth. He is honest, and he keeps his promises. People can depend on him.
      A Scout is Loyal.
      A Scout is true to his family, friends, Scout leaders, school, and nation.
      A Scout is Helpful.
      A Scout cares about other people. He willingly volunteers to help others without expecting payment or reward.
      A Scout is Friendly.
      A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own.
      A Scout is Courteous.
      A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows that using good manners makes it easier for people to get along.
      A Scout is Kind.
      A Scout knows there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. Without good reason, he does not harm or kill any living thing.
      A Scout is Obedient.
      A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them.
      A Scout is Cheerful.
      A Scout looks for the bright side of life. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.
      A Scout is Thrifty.
      A Scout works to pay his own way and to help others. He saves for the future. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.
      A Scout is Brave.
      A Scout can face danger although he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him.
      A Scout is Clean.
      A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He chooses the company of those who live by high standards. He helps keep his home and community clean.
      A Scout is Reverent.
      A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

      No where does it say a scout is not gay

      • You are correct, John. However, you cannot ignore the Scout Oath, in which every scout pledges, on their honor, that they will “keep themselves…morally straight.”

      • ok lets be clear..
        On my honor I will do my best
        To do my duty to God and my country
        and to obey the Scout Law;
        To help other people at all times;
        To keep myself physically strong,
        mentally awake, and morally straight.

        So you are also making an oath to follow the scout law..

        morals plural of mor·al (Noun)
        1 A lesson, esp. one concerning what is right or prudent, that can be derived from a story, a piece of information, or an experience.
        2 A person’s standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do.

        So being morally straight means that you are sticking to your standards of behavior or beliefs of what is right or wrong..

        your morals may be dictated by your religious beliefs.. and they may say that you should not practice homosexuality.. and be being Reverent.. I’m ok with you following your religious beliefs and not being Gay..

        But my religious beliefs may say that God does not care if your Gay.. and you being a reverent scouter should also be ok with that..

        We are BOTH being morally straight to our beliefs.. and because we are scouters, and reverent, we can allow for this to happen.

        That was BP’s dream.. that was his vision..

      • Andrew – That’s not correct.

        ‘Straight’ as a term to describe sexual orientation was created in the 1950’s by homosexuals (go ahead, look it up, I’ll wait). Boy Scouts was founded…when? Morally straight references how a Scout shall always do the right thing as per his moral upbringing. Hopefully, that means he won’t lie, cheat, steal or commit acts that society has a law against.

        Can we PLEASE stop using the ‘morally straight’ argument? Please? It’s a timeline thing – Lord BP did not craft this phrase to be abused in such a way every time this argument arises. Of course, if Lord BP were a timelord and had a Tardis, than my argument would be moot. But he wasn’t and he didn’t.

      • Respecting others beliefs doesn’t mean that a reverent scout lays aside God’s laws. A scout is kind, but kindness can be in saying truth.