cub-salute

BSA to use Scout Oath and Scout Law for all programs

Update, Jan. 27, 2014: Sea Scouts, see how this applies to you here.

It’s official: The resolution to move to one Oath and Law for Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity, Sea Scouts, and Venturing was approved this morning by the Boy Scouts of America’s executive board.

I first told you about the volunteer-led proposal in a blog post in August.

Essentially, this means every Scout of any age will use the Scout Oath and Law instead of reciting separate, program-specific sayings. Cub Scouts will recite the Scout Oath and Law instead of the Cub Scout Promise and Law of the Pack. Similarly, Venturers will no longer use the Venturing Oath and Venturing Code.

Because it will take time to transition into this new approach, the changes are not immediate.

The Venturing change will not happen until late 2013 or early 2014; the Cub Scout change will take effect in mid-2015. Stay tuned to my blog for exact dates as I get them.

Additionally, the newly adopted resolution replaces the full-hand Venturing sign and salute with the three-finger Boy Scout sign and salute.

UPDATE (10/18/12): I confirmed the above sentence today. Venturing will begin to use the Scout sign and Scout salute. This wasn’t mentioned in the resolution because the sign and salute are not specified in the rules and regulations.

For the full resolution and answers to some frequently asked questions, follow the jump: 

Frequently asked questions

Here are the BSA’s answers to some questions already received…

Q: What, specifically, is being changing?

A: Cub Scouts:

• Adopt the Scout Oath and Law for use in the Cub Scout program, retiring the Cub Scout Promise.

• Revise the Core Values of Cub Scouts to align exactly with the 12 points of the Scout Law.

• Retire the Law of the Pack, while maintaining the concept of “Akela” as leader.

• Maintain the current Cub Scout motto, sign, salute, and handshake.

A: Venturing:

• Retire the Venturing Oath, Code, sign and salute

• Adopt the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout sign, and Scout salute

• Engage the task force and National Youth Cabinet to determine whether Venturing should have a differentiating motto/slogan or adopt “Be Prepared”

Q: Why are these changes happening?

A: Each of our programs is designed to help instill the goals of the BSA mission in its members’ daily lives. As the BSA strives to operate as one organization, build continuity of membership over a person’s life, and deliver its mission, considering one Oath and Law as a tool to unify our membership is appropriate. Additionally, the earlier and longer a member is exposed to the values of the Scout Oath and Law, the better the opportunity is that they will be able to live those values in their lives.

Q: How did these recommendations come to be?

A: Two separate task forces have worked on the deliberations leading to the recommendations – the Strategic Plan Goal 411 Task Force and the Venturing Task Force. Each of these is volunteer-led and staffed (approximately 50 and 25 volunteers, respectively).

These task forces made the initial deliberations and recommendations beginning in 2011 and early 2012 respectively.

In the case of the Cub Scout, the 411 task force consulted with cognitive and child development specialists and educational practitioners involved in Scouting. Specifically, these professional and scouters were asked to consider age & developmental appropriateness of the current Cub Scout Promise and Law of the Pack versus the Scout Oath and Law. The outcome of this study suggested that comprehension difficulty is high for both but not materially higher for the Scout Oath. Further the study group concluded that Cub Scouts could understand the Scout Law just as well as the Cub Scout Promise with appropriate support and guidance. Additionally, research among parents (62% favorable) and Cub Scout leaders (59% favorable) was also supportive. Cub Scouts would not be asked to memorize or recite the Scout Law at early ages.

With respect to Venturing, the primary discussion points centered around the length and lack of use of the current Venturing Code, the desire to support a seamless set of value statements between Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venturing (one program) and a desire to align Venturing’s value statements with those used for similar age programs worldwide.

Q: Isn’t the Scout Oath and Law much more difficult for Cub Scout age boys to memorize and understand?

A: This was an initial concern of the task force. To address this concern, the task force recruited a group of individuals with experience in child development and linguistics and a group of educational practitioners. All of these individuals are Scouters.

After study, the group’s conclusions were:

• Both sets of value statements contain complex concepts requiring support and guidance for the user to fully understand and learn to live buy.

• Both sets of values statements are written at a relatively high reading level, but the Scout Oath is not significantly more difficult to read and comprehend than the Cub Scout Promise.

• The Law of the Pack is significantly more difficult for Cub Scout age boys to understand than either the Cub Scout Promise or the Scout Oath and contains concepts for which younger Cub Scouts are not developmentally prepared.

• Cub Scout age boys will be able to learn and comprehend the Scout Oath with support and guidance similar to that currently provided when learning the Cub Scout Promise (cards as prompts, guided discussion on meaning, etc.).

• Cub Scouts in early ranks should not be expected to memorize the Scout Law but are developmentally ready to begin exposure to the words of the Law and are ready to begin building understanding of the concepts with help.

Q: Cub Scouts is not Boy Scouts. If Cub Scouts use the Scout Oath and Law, what will separate the programs, what will the boys look forward to?

A: Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are separate programs. Cub Scouts preparing to move to Boy Scouts will continue to anticipate the new uniform, the increase in independence and leadership growth of the patrol method, the enhanced opportunities for fun and adventure thru age appropriate troop activities they could not do as Cub Scouts and the Boy Scout advancement program and other opportunities. Use of the same Oath and Law will unify them with their older “brothers” but will not make them Boy Scouts.

Full resolution

Click here to download (PDF).

What do you think?

Comments are open for your reaction to this move. How will it affect your Scouting life?


Photo: Some rights reserved by PruittAllen

330 thoughts on “BSA to use Scout Oath and Scout Law for all programs

  1. Pingback: Task forces propose moving to one Oath and Law for all programs « Bryan on Scouting

    • Bryan, no plans to have Tigers – Bears memorize the Scout Law. It will, however, become the elements of the Cub Scout Core Values and be built into the character education we offer in the Cub Scout program

      • If you don’t need to memorize, then what are we doing to the Bobcat requirements? Do we just give a Bobcat to every boy that puts on a uniform without asking anything else of them?

        • The actual requirement says to “Learn and say the CUB SCOUT PROMISE” and “Say the LAW OF THE PACK”. It wasn’t until recently when I was training Cub Scout leaders that someone asked, “where does it say memorize?”. All this time I interpreted “say” as “from memory”. When the requirement does not say from “memory”. The only requirement for memory is Requirement 2 of the Arrow of Light.

        • Aaron and James, I agree with both of you. I think the goal of the requirements is to create a sense of … I can’t think of the right word here, inclusion? belonging? The need to fulfill those requirements before they can receive any other awards. While my unit is not super strict with the younger ones, we feel its important to understand what they are being asked to say. We start every meeting, whether Den or Pack, with the Promise and the Law. I feel that the message of CUB Scouting will be lacking once the Cub Scout Promise and Law of the Pack are gone. How is the idea of Akela supposed to be reinforced??

  2. This plan makes sense. The Cub Scout Promise is quite similar to the Boy Scout Oath. So similar, in fact, that on many occaisions I’ve observed Scouts and Scouters stuble through one or the other when they inadvertently use the words from the
    wrong one. The most common example that I’ve observed is the accidental omission of “…and to obey the Scout Law…” in the Boy Scout Oath. Additionally, I think I can count on one hand the number of Cub Scouts and Cub Scout Leaders that I’ve met who can recite the Law of the Pack without assistance. The wording is a bit klunky and it seems that it has fallen into disuse. Discontinuing it in favor of aligning the Scout Law with Cub Scouting’s Core Values makes perfect sense. Like the Law of the Pack, I know few Cub Scout Leaders who are well-versed in the 12 Core Values.

  3. This decision is just about as moronic as the failed Skill Award experiment of the 70′s and 80′s. Let’s just throw out all of our traditions while we’re at it. There must be earthquakes in Kenya caused by B-P revolving in his grave. While the powers that be scramble around in blind panic trying to save BSA from the attacks of the PC left, they forget that our strength lies in what has worked for more than a century. Gump said it right: “Stupid is as stupid does.”

    • sometimes when you are up to your buttocks in aligators, it is hard to remember that your main objective was to drain the swamp. Never the less, that doesn’t excuse the stupidity of this decision.

    • Fred = I agree with you Lord Powell our founder of Boy Scouts and his brother Admiral William Powell are definitely rolling over in their respective graves. I’m associated with two types of Scouting- both Troop and Sea Scouts. I’m also a teacher in public school and elementary students cannot learn or understand the complexity of such the oath. Their minds need simple phrases. As for Sea Scouts apparently these members are like many in the world of Scouting and know VERY little of Sea Scouts. Knowing the Boy Scout oath and law IS a rank requirment from Seaman Recruit to Seaman Apprentice. So why change it for the Sea Scouts? The board which took units such as Explorers and Sea Scouts and dumped them into Venturing years ago made a huge mistake- these are career units not an additional traditional boy scout type unit as most Venturing Crews are. Now this board makes things worst by this stupid move. I’m almost betting that if Lord Powell and Admiral Powell could rise from their graves they’d be extremely irrate over things in today’s scouting.

      • I understand and agree. While I have no problems with the boys reading (whichever) promise or following along on a poster, it will frustrate many of the little ones who do desire to learn, understand and recite from memory. We have to just keep working with them to understand the language and not push them too hard.

      • REPOST: The actual requirement says to “Learn and say the CUB SCOUT PROMISE” and “Say the LAW OF THE PACK”. It wasn’t until recently when I was training Cub Scout leaders that someone asked, “where does it say memorize?”. All this time I interpreted “say” as “from memory”. When the requirement does not say from “memory”. The only requirement for memory is Requirement 2 of the Arrow of Light.

  4. I would hope that Sea Scouting still retains the Sea Promise, as, that is more specific to what we do, and our operations. The Scout Oath and Law contain the core values inherent in all Scouting programs, as espoused by the Scouting Mission Statement..

    • The Sea Promise is not being retired. Sea Scouting will still have the Sea Promise in addition to the Boy Scout Oath and Law just like any other Venturing unit.

    • The Sea Scout Promise hasn’t been in the recent editions of the Rules and Regulations nor the bylaw that this resolution changes, just like the Scout Sign, Venturing Sign, Cub Scout Sign. Therefor the resolution doesn’t state it. But some of them are addressed in the FAQ. But I wouldn’t place any bets on Sea Scouts until you see something published to that effect.

      At present it seems Sea Scouting had the Promise sort of as outside of the published policies of the BSA, just as a part of official handbooks and the such. Never know if it will be retained until those actially are published.

      • Jeff I disagree with you- on page 49 of the 2010 Sea Scout manual under advancment to Seaman Apprentice in the ideals section it states ” Repeat from memory and discuss with an adult leader the Sea Promise. Discuss the BSA Mission Statement, the BSA Vision Statement, the Scout Oath and Law and agree to carry out the provisions of your ship’s code and bylaws.” The only thing which the printers didn’t do in this manual and put the sea scout oath in it. However you can find it on http://www.seascout.org/about/ideals.html.
        And for one who doesn’t recognize it, it reads as follows:
        To guard against water accidents;
        To know the location and proper use of the lifesaving devices on every boat I board;
        To be prepared to render aid to those in need;
        To seek to preserve the motto of the sea, Women and children first.

        • Hi Mary, that’s my point. Google around for the Bylaws of the BSA or the Rules and Regs of the BSA. Though the Cub Scout Promise, Boy Scout Oath, and Venturing Oath were all included in these documents, Sea Scouts was not. Only reference to Sea Scouts as part of Venturing.

          In a similar vein, the Venturing Sign, Scout Sign, and Cub Scout sign are not in these above documents. What was passed by the national board was a resolution adjusting the BSA Bylaws and Rules and Regs. The Sea Scout Promise, Venturing Sign, and Cub Scout Sign aren’t in the Resolution.

          But what I was saying, is that the BSA has added the Sign changes to the FAQ for the resolution, claiming they are changing. This will be executed in the next publications. There is nothing in the resolution, nor the rules and regs of the BSA that Sea Scouts will keep or loose their Promise, because they never existed in the Rules and Regs.

          The Sea Scout Promise may go the way of the Venturing Sign, because neither was in the rules and regs, and seemingly can be changed whenever someone at National publishes a book.

          Do note, that if the Sea Scouts keep their promise it will be at least as a secondary Promise. Sea Scouts WILL be using the Scout Oath and Law according to the resolution as passed. Whether you have something additional may still be up in the air.

        • The Sea Scout Promise is not being retired. The group that proposed the resolution stated that they were not looking at the Sea Scout Promise in their discussions.

          The Sea Scout promise has always been a secondary promise to the Venturing Oath and Code for Sea Scouting.

    • Mr Bubbles I’m in 100% agreement with you. Also if anyone on that board hasn’t realize it part of the rank requirement from Seaman Recruit to Seaman Apprentice is knowing and demonstrating that you do know the Boy Scout Oath and Law. Something which is also very much aligned with the Army JROTC cadet creed. I know this because I’m in a Troop, a Ship and since 2006 with Army JROTC battalion.

      Out of curiousity- where is your ship? Mine’s in Orange City,
      FL

  5. I also hope that Sea Scouts keep the Sea Promise. It is more geared to them anyway. As a Venturer myself, we do recite the current Venture Oath at our meetings. I hoped it would stay that way because we are first Venturers, then a part of BSA.

    • Based on how many parts of Venturing are being retired, it only strengthens my belief that Venturing is always treated as the red-headed step-child of the Scouting program. Most Scouters don’t realize all of the amazing potential in Venturing. I mean, there are Crews specializing in Civil War reenactments for pete’s sake.

      • Brian if you think that traditional Venturing crews are treated as red-headed stepchildren, trying being in Sea Scouts or Police or Fire Explorers. In our council Sea Scouts are treated as if we’re in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. Police and Fire explorers, which 30 years ago were part of the BSA, are treated as if they’re either in a police headquarters or fighting a fire somewhere. Its no wonder why none of the Sea Scouts or Explorers show up at roundtable – why be there if we treated as if we are NOT wanted?

        • Well, technically Sea Scouting is a subprogram of Venturing, although in my area, Sea Scouting is treated much better than other Venture Crews. I feel that Explorers are generally in the same boat as Venturing, although the separation between Learning for Life and the traditional Scouting programs makes that divide even more drastic.

  6. This will be an interesting debacle. I can’t wait to see how this plays out. I am skeptical of any changes this dramatic to the programs. Sometimes, making something easier is not what is in the best interest of the boys. Time will tell.

  7. Reblogged this on Just Scouting and commented:
    I know some people are not too pleased with this move but personally I thing this is a great move by the BSA. It puts it out there that this is one program and not three separate. Kudos to the BSA!

    • I heartily disagree with your description of ‘one program’. I can see how Boy Scouting can be viewed as a continuation and expansion from Cub Scouting, but not with Boy Scouting into Venturing. Into Venture Scouting, yes. Venturing is more of a step sideways from Boy Scouting. The fact that one can be in a Boy Scouting Troop and several Venturing Crews shows that things are going in many different directions.

    • I disagree. The reasoning behind this is confusing. Per the Q&A above, “the BSA strives to operate as one organization” but “Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are separate programs.” So, clearly this isn’t to make this one program.

    • We are NOT one program — we are ONE organization with many different programs to meet the needs of different segments of the population – by age, gender, cultural identity (remember the Hispanic soccer program?) and socio-economic situation (Learning for Life). One size does not fit all!

    • I was involved in Royal Rangers for 5 years. R.R. had the same Code and Motto for all of the age groups. The Rangers Kids did not have any problem understanding the 12 points which are in essence the same as the BSA Scout Law.
      The 4 programs were different since you are dealing with boys ages 4-18. R.R. also went to the same colored uniforms instead of the Khaki and red shirts. Perhaps the BSA will do the same since Webelos II can opt for a scout uniform over the blue cub scout uniform. I have hear parents complain about purchasing a new uniform when the boy decides to go into scouts. I know that the ladies would rather have a khaki than a thin see- through yellow shirt.
      If the BSA did go to one colored uniform then they could place a velcro foot print to the left pocket for ranks, right pocket for patches, shoulder for unit patches since a boy may go to a different numbered troop or pack. To separate the age groups, a different colored should loop could be used.

  8. I am the SPL for my troop, we have a pack that is involved with us, we have our meetings at the same place and time, and I just started getting them to say the law of the pack, and the cub scout promise. This will be very disappointing to them, when its a tradition to say them.

  9. Seemed inevitable and on many levels I like this. I’m not one to keep tradition for tradition’s sake, nor do I like the trite phrase, “If it’s not broke, don’t fix it.” That might work for a car, but people still get a new better car even if the old car isn’t broken.

    What’s going to really get everyone’s goat is when Scouting changes the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy — if you get my drift. When that comes out, you all will soon forget about this “minor” change to Scouting.)

  10. As a Pack Trainer currently working with our newest members (Tiger Cubs), after just completing the initial requirements for Bobcat, I noted that the requirements state, “Learn and say the CUB SCOUT PROMISE and complete the Honesty Character Connection,” “Say the CUB SCOUT MOTTO. A motto is a guiding principle,” and “Say the LAW OF THE PACK. Tell what it means.”

    It doesn’t say “memorize.” It says “Learn and say, Say, Say”.

    The criteria used to pass the requirements comes straight from the Cub Scout Leader Book, which is “Do Your Best.”

    So, I welcome this change as when the Cub Scouts are ready to join Boy Scouts, the one oath and law have already been instilled in them at their level and they will have an even better understanding when they work on the Boy Scout joining requirements.

    • Lou, your comments address my chief concern – the alignment of requirements. I agree with your assessment of “Do Your Best” as the criterion for passing the requirements, as it is with all other requirements. It’s going to be an interesting journey.

      • I concur Howard, the Cub Scout Law and Promise are a natural progression towards Boy Scouts. There is a HUGE difference between a 6 year old boy and a 12 year old. I understand the motto “Do Your Best”, but even with the current requirements I have many boys who still stress about knowing them verbatim.

    • Lou;

      I too concur that this will mesh well over time. Everyone needs to note that the Cub level changes are not immediate, so as to work on how to best implement and make it workable for younger kids. The sooner the basic elements of the Oath and Law are in the minds of youth, the better, as it really is a practical life guideline.

    • Excellent! I always inferred the need to memorize these things. It looks like I postponed one of my scouts bobcat badge for no good reason. Thanks for pointing this out to me. I will not make such a big deal about memorizing these in the future.

  11. My chief concern is the effect on Bobcat requirements for cubs (especially Tigers). I like the consistency this brings to the programs, and I certainly appreciate the alignment of the Cub Scout Core Values to the 12 tenets of the Scout Law. The Cub Scout Promise has had language changes over the years (most recently in 1971), so I don’t have any problem with changing it to align with the Boy Scout Oath. I do think the alignment of Bobcat, Webelos, and AoL achievements could be a challenge.

  12. Looks like busywork, smells like busywork.
    I think the question “is this worth alienating Venturers” should have been given more consideration/weight. It might make sense, but it has annoyed a lot of people for no real reason. I don’t particularly care as a Scouter with absolutely no interest in Venturing, but it seems like the “Voice of the Scout” got drowned out on this one.

  13. For Scouters who volunteer in both Cubs & Boy Scouts it will certainly make things easier to remember and teach. This comment may open up a flood gate, can we get OA to adapt the Scout Oath? Hardest thing I’ve ever had to remember. :-)

    • And while your at it, why don’t you replace the OA song with the Cub Scouts We Whistle While We Work, and replace the Sash with Cub Scout Belt Loops?

      • That’s when the masses will revolt. It’s fine for people to mess with the cub program, but not the other way around!!

  14. I want to see what this does to WEBELOS requirement 7B and Arrow of Light requirements 2.1 and 7A. These are now at least partly redundant.

  15. Bad thoughts: Only maintaining the Venturing uniform. While Boy Scouting and Venturing are two very different programs, the uniform and inclusion of female youth are the only outward difference between the two now.

    The possibility of unhappiness of these changes lasting for many years.

    Confusion for a few over the differences between the programs (Minor – more a result of supporters of the change trumpeting that Scouting is a single program).

    People calling Venturers ‘Venture Scouts’ because they are using the ‘Scout’ Oath and Law (Minor – many people make that mistake anyway).

    Good thoughts: Maintaining the current Cub Scout motto, sign, salute, handshake, and uniform.

    I can refer to the Boy Scout Oath and Law as the Scouting Oath and Law because there are no other Oaths and Laws in use.

    Maintaining the Sea Promise for Sea Scouting (It was never on the table to be removed, but this direction seems to indicate a slight possibility in the future.)

      • Venturing is one of the Scouting programs. So is Boy Scouting and Cub Scouting. Those three programs are different Scouting programs within the BSA, with Venture Scouting, Varsity Scouting, and Sea Scouting being further subprograms within Boy Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Venturing respectively.

        I’m going to assume you are asking about the differences between Venturing and Boy Scouting. (Although my differences between the programs comment was referring to Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Venturing.)

        In Boy Scouting, there is a single advancement track with many specialized offshoots (merit badges) that are relatively optional. The advancement track and required merit badges focus the program on outdoor skills, citizenship, leadership, etc. The advancement goal for Boy Scouts is generally to earn the Eagle rank.

        In Venturing, there is one generalized advancement track as well as other specialized advancement tracks. Working on the generalized track towards the Silver Award is a rough parallel to working towards the Eagle rank, but unlike Boy Scouting, it is not necessarily the advancement goal for every Venturer. Venturers may also be working on the Ranger, TRUST, Quest, or Quartermaster Awards, which are expert level awards in various specialities.

        Another difference is the focus of the Crews. Each Crew generally has a focus or specialization, such as the Sea Scouting subprogram which is the specialization of boating. There may be Crews focused in religious service, high adventure, civil war reenactments, search and rescue, sports, etc. And many Crews focus on learning more about their specialization and not on the advancements.

        There are more ways in which Venturing stands out from Boy Scouting, but I hope this response gives you a good start.

  16. I like this change and think it will benefit the boys and make the Oath and Law a unifying attribute and core of the program. I do wonder why the staggered change. Why not just say that on January 1, 2013 here is the Oath and Law and amend all requirement thus effected?

    • Good question, Bill. The timing is being driven by a broader review of the Cub Scout program as directed by the National Council Strategic Plan. Nothing is firm at this point but all recommendations are volunteer driven and after vetting will be implemented as “one” change with all affected materials available in May 2015 for the 2016 program year.

  17. I heard about this a couple of weeks ago and don’t really have a problem. As a former Den leader and current Cubmaster, I’ve never had a boy totally be able to recite the Law of The Pack by heart. I also have trouble with it.

    I wonder if we can start to implement the changes quicker than 2015?

  18. Bryan,
    There is nothing in this resolution you have posted getting rid of the Venturing Sign, any more than getting rid of the Cub Scout Sign. While I know that it was in the announcements prior to the vote, it doesnt appear to be in the final text of the resolution.

    • Welcome to the world of BSA resolutions and press releases. They are generally vague and relatively unhelpful and only get specific when they are unofficial.

      That change will probably be officially put into writing when they update the handbooks.

  19. My only concern is this: I’ve had many boys come through my Pack for whom the word “obedient” is a red flag, but for whom “The Cub Scout follows Akela” really worked. Without that phrase, “maintaining the concept of “Akela” as leader” seems complete bereft of context and turned into a thinly-veiled “Do what you’re told.” This is less like building character, and more like managing employees.

  20. As described, it seems the rationale for burdening Cubs with the Scout Oath and Scout Law is, “Hey, they have trouble learning what they have now, so why not replace it with something else that’s hard to learn?” I hope we didn’t pay those experts.

  21. As a cubmaster, I do not like this resolution. The traditions of the cub scouts are important. It is difficult enough to get Webelos to learn the scout law, much less Tigers. At that age, they do not even understand what the words mean, much less be able to memorize them. It is just another example of the Cub Scouts program taking a backseat to the Boy Scouts program.

  22. I don’t know if this was really thought out. The current Cub Scout promise and Law of the Pack are tailored to younger boys. It is easier for them to understand, plants the seeds of the values of the oath and law, and sets the basis for expanding those learning through the Boy Scout Oath and Law later on. These values are better instilled in the boys when they have to relearn them, in a different way, when they transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. When they do this at an older age, they are more mature to understand their meaning. In addtion, the Cub Scout Promise and Law of the Pack are exposing the boys to the same values as the Boy Scout Oath and Scout Law.

    • I absolutely agree. Yet again, it’s the little guys who don’t seem to matter. There are too many Scouters out there who seem to believe that nothing “counts” until you are a boy scout. They view cubs as biding their time until they become a REAL scout. Cub Scouting is its own program, with its own traditions and accomplishments.

      • I think that once this change is implemented, it will be embraced by most people. Nothing stands still and replacing the Promise with the Oath is very similar. The Law of the Pack is very difficult for anyone to learn. Making a better transition to Boy Scouting is not a horrible idea.

        Let’s remember that Scouting is for the boys, not tradition. Boys want to have fun, and if the program is done right, will learn things without even knowing they are learning them. If the boys are getting bored, look in the mirror and make your program the best it can be and age specific. As an example, I let our Webelos II’s do a lot as a Den so they really stay interested and stay excited for the transition to Boy Scouts. The meeting plans are just a guide to get you going.

        There are plenty of things to get worked up over, but this is not one of them. It’s a small blip.

        • I help with Trainig in our Council and what you are doing is what all should be doing just take the trainning and you will see if not then take it. But that being said the program is changing also not sure where and how but it has been in the mill for a few years mark my words this is not the end of change be it good or bad for your situation.

        • Rob, I agree that Scouting is for the boys. Unfortunately, there are many adults who will embrace this because it makes it easier for them (see some comments here). I don’t believe that this will help instill the values of the Oath and Law into the younger scouts. We’ve all learned something when we were young and weren’t mature enough to understand it until we looked at it another way when we were older. This takes away one opportunity of relooking and evaluating as a Boy Scout what was learned as a Cub.

        • My dens did not have this great difficulty in learning the promise and law of the pack because we first taught them the meaning of the words. We discussed it with them — asked what they thought certain words or phrases meant. And we made sure they understood the action of those meanings in our activities — when they played games they were expected to give goodwill by cheering each other on, waiting their turn, not cheating.

          Program IS paramount. But traditions ARE important — to the boys as well as to the organization. Ask anyone in a family of Eagle Scouts or the OA.

  23. So BSA insists that Cub Scouts is its own separate program. Really? Then why can’t we keep our own promise and law of the pack?

    Years ago we were not allowed to let Webelos cook, especially not foil packs on a campout. The reason cited was that it’s too similar to the boy scout program — they’ll just get bored when they transition. So you’re making more elements the same? The Webelos already wear the Boy Scout uniform – how different and exciting will it be to bridge?

    I absolutely agree that we should replace the ridiculous core values with the 12 points of the scout law. These should have been used when core values were first introduced. Instead, yet another task force redefined the scout law to create more words to learn. Now pack nights using those original meeting plans have the danger of becoming just like school – or even worse, boring. While the introduction of “alternate meeting plans” should help, this entire focus wrecks havoc on the Roundtable supplemental training program. Instead of exciting games, songs, stunts, crafts and service projects to match a theme, we get to teach all those components that were pulled out of cub leader basic training. thanks

  24. Next week, National will be voting to combine the rest of the program. Says Timmy Malone, a 6 year-old from Baton Rouge, “I can’t wait. By my calculations, I can be an Eagle now before I turn 9 and a half!”

  25. Not sure what to think about these changes. I guess that they did not want to have duplication of services for Cubs, Boy Scouts, Venturing, and Sea Scouts Varsity Scouts. Now here is the acid test can one service handle the request from all areas of Scouting? Time will tell. I have heard of other changes that are coming not sure I like them either but they are coming anyway. As an Advisor the youth that I am in contact with do not like the changes not sure how they will handle them and yes they are aware of the changes to the letter. They will still have fun and adventure in their scouting events but they do not like change. I guess that soon they will all be Boy Scouts from the age of 6-20 and all other programs will loose their meaning and place in Scouting. What is next The OA or something else close to the scouting program as we saw it 24 hours ago.

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